Ether 5

[tovarisch]

My fiancee and I have been reading the Book of Mormon on the evenings we spend together during the week. (Quick note: We aren't yet baptized though have been going to church for a few months now. We're slated to be baptized in March.) Given that we met and dated when neither of us went to church, reading scripture together has been a great way for us to build religion into our relationship.

A few nights ago we read Ether 4 and absolutely loved it, especially verse 12:

And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the dlife, and the truth of the world.

The next evening, we read Ether 5 about the three witnesses, and we had the exact opposite reaction; it raised doubts in our minds that LDS is true. Ether 5 feels too perfect to be prophecy. Despite getting over elephants and steel and mostly over BoM historicity questions, there are still moments reading BoM, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price (*cough* Book of Abraham papyri *cough*) when I think, "Man, as great as this all is, it seems like Joseph made it up."

I prayed about this the very next day in my personal prayers. I do feel at peace spiritually, but there's an intellectual part of my mind that I have to fight with. In the thread a few months ago, the member "Changed" posted on heuristics. I have re-read that post many times to remind myself that I don't have to understand everything and have to accept the contradictions.

I also remind myself that Paul included "faith" as a spiritual gift, and maybe that's a gift that I don't have an abundance of -- and that's okay because I am sure Heavenly Father has given me other strengths.

Now that I've written the above, I realize that I don't have a question. Just an honest confession to the denizens of LDS.net Forums that I have doubts and depend on prayer and reading scripture to give me peace that becoming a Mormon is the right decision. I'm like a Nephite except mine is a doubt cycle!

[bytebear]

This verse was translated before the thee witnesses had their vision. This chapter pretty much told Joseph Smth that he needed to find three witnesses. According to the Study Manual

In June of 1829 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation “that three special witnesses would be designated. See Ether 5:2–4; also 2 Nephi 11:3 and 27:12. Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris were moved upon by an inspired desire to be the three special witnesses” (D&C 17, section introduction).

Book of Mormon Student Manual Chapter 50: Ether 1–5

You simply have the cause and effect backward.

[jbeggs]

I had the opposite experience reading Ether 5--I found it to be faith-affirming.

But nevertheless, I have had my doubts while reading The Book of Mormon as well. It is important for us to receive revelation about it:

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[justinc]

I would like to focus briefly on Ether 4 (the one tovarisch absolutely loved).

First, I have to disagree with the author when he say's "whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me". The Quran can and does persuade people to do good but it doesn't follow that the Quran is from Jesus.

Second, why does the author record Jesus as calling himself the Father right after he has just referred to his Father? This seems to imply that the author was a modalist or similar.

[tovarisch]

Bytebear, I'm glad you pointed that out. It's much easier to accept that they read the verse and were moved to "become" the verse, so to speak, than the other way around. I should have opened my institute manual.

[Blackmarch]

My fiancee and I have been reading the Book of Mormon on the evenings we spend together during the week. (Quick note: We aren't yet baptized though have been going to church for a few months now. We're slated to be baptized in March.) Given that we met and dated when neither of us went to church, reading scripture together has been a great way for us to build religion into our relationship.

A few nights ago we read Ether 4 and absolutely loved it, especially verse 12:

The next evening, we read Ether 5 about the three witnesses, and we had the exact opposite reaction; it raised doubts in our minds that LDS is true. Ether 5 feels too perfect to be prophecy. Despite getting over elephants and steel and mostly over BoM historicity questions, there are still moments reading BoM, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price (*cough* Book of Abraham papyri *cough*) when I think, "Man, as great as this all is, it seems like Joseph made it up."

I prayed about this the very next day in my personal prayers. I do feel at peace spiritually, but there's an intellectual part of my mind that I have to fight with. In the thread a few months ago, the member "Changed" posted on heuristics. I have re-read that post many times to remind myself that I don't have to understand everything and have to accept the contradictions.

I also remind myself that Paul included "faith" as a spiritual gift, and maybe that's a gift that I don't have an abundance of -- and that's okay because I am sure Heavenly Father has given me other strengths.

Now that I've written the above, I realize that I don't have a question. Just an honest confession to the denizens of LDS.net Forums that I have doubts and depend on prayer and reading scripture to give me peace that becoming a Mormon is the right decision. I'm like a Nephite except mine is a doubt cycle!

Ya that happens to many of us at various times. that's when we need to be like the one man who brought his child to Christ and asked "help thou my unbelief".

Many times throughout our spiritual path we'll get to a moment that's a lot like a scene from Indiana Jones and the last crusade- where he has to cross the abyss and take that "step of faith" over the abyss- we can't see or explain how it works at that moment until quite some time after we have crossed the bridge... perhaps from the different viewpoint or from the experience.

[Quin]

I would like to focus briefly on Ether 4 (the one tovarisch absolutely loved).

First, I have to disagree with the author when he say's "whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me". The Quran can and does persuade people to do good but it doesn't follow that the Quran is from Jesus.

Second, why does the author record Jesus as calling himself the Father right after he has just referred to his Father? This seems to imply that the author was a modalist or similar.

Why not?

I mean, the quote isn't "whatsoever thing that persuadieth men to do good is of me.... Except for if it comes from a religion where Im only regarded as a prophet, instead of the son of God."

Q

[Anddenex]

I would like to focus briefly on Ether 4 (the one tovarisch absolutely loved).

First, I have to disagree with the author when he say's "whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me". The Quran can and does persuade people to do good but it doesn't follow that the Quran is from Jesus.

Second, why does the author record Jesus as calling himself the Father right after he has just referred to his Father? This seems to imply that the author was a modalist or similar.

justinc,

Although I recognize the frame of reference you are interpreting the scripture from your interpretation of the scripture is incorrect.

All things which are good, are from God. There is no question to this...this is absolute. That which is within the Quran, that is good, is from God -- who is the author of all good.

This does not mean the whole Quran is from God though, but the bits and pieces within it which are good, are from God.

A person may be evil, but at times may choose a correct path. The good they chose is from God, but this doesn't mean everything the person does is from God.

You are implying to much to the scripture which isn't being taught.

[bytor2112]

The next evening, we read Ether 5 about the three witnesses, and we had the exact opposite reaction; it raised doubts in our minds that LDS is true. Ether 5 feels too perfect to be prophecy. Despite getting over elephants and steel and mostly over BoM historicity questions, there are still moments reading BoM, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price (*cough* Book of Abraham papyri *cough*) when I think, "Man, as great as this all is, it seems like Joseph made it up."

Prior to investigating the church , did you accept all that is offered in the bible? Talking donkeys, global floods, whales that can swallow humans....? Regarding the *cough* BOA papyri comment, I would respectfully offer this....Sacred things come to earnest seekers and as Paul noted..'the things of God can only be known by the power of the Holy Spirit."

Edited December 10, 2013 by bytor2112

[tovarisch]

Bytor, this may sound strange, but for some reason I find it easier to accept the strange things in the Bible over the strange thing in the Book of Mormon. I think this is because I want everything to sync perfectly, but that isn't the case.

[bytor2112]

Bytor, this may sound strange, but for some reason I find it easier to accept the strange things in the Bible over the strange thing in the Book of Mormon. I think this is because I want everything to sync perfectly, but that isn't the case.

You will find in time that everything will sync more perfectly than you had ever imagined. Check out the book Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon..really excellent.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon tovarisch. I hope you're doing well! :)

The next evening, we read Ether 5 about the three witnesses, and we had the exact opposite reaction; it raised doubts in our minds that LDS is true. Ether 5 feels too perfect to be prophecy. Despite getting over elephants and steel and mostly over BoM historicity questions, there are still moments reading BoM, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price (*cough* Book of Abraham papyri *cough*) when I think, "Man, as great as this all is, it seems like Joseph made it up."

I prayed about this the very next day in my personal prayers. I do feel at peace spiritually, but there's an intellectual part of my mind that I have to fight with. In the thread a few months ago, the member "Changed" posted on heuristics. I have re-read that post many times to remind myself that I don't have to understand everything and have to accept the contradictions.

I also remind myself that Paul included "faith" as a spiritual gift, and maybe that's a gift that I don't have an abundance of -- and that's okay because I am sure Heavenly Father has given me other strengths.

Now that I've written the above, I realize that I don't have a question. Just an honest confession to the denizens of LDS.net Forums that I have doubts and depend on prayer and reading scripture to give me peace that becoming a Mormon is the right decision. I'm like a Nephite except mine is a doubt cycle!

In Moroni 10 is what we call Moroni's Promise. You've probably had someone quote it to you before or you've read it before. Moroni's promise, if understood correctly, will help you to find a resolution to what troubles your mind.

Something that I had always wondered about when reading Moroni 10 was in verse 4. It invites us to ask if the things we have received are not true. We were talking about this verse the other night with my family and we asked the question: What does it mean to ask if something is not true? My wife offered the answer that the question assumes a position of belief. We are asking God to confirm something we already feel or think to be true. This is an important distinction.

Luckily I found an article by Elder Gene R. Cook that addresses Moroni's Promise in detail. I feel that this will be very helpful to you. I invite you to read this whole talk. I quote a portion below:

Verse 4 [Moro. 10:4] identifies yet another important principle: if we want an answer from God, we will move ourselves out of a neutral position and let our desire to believe that God can help us begin to work in us.

One way to understand verse 4 [Moro. 10:4] is to note that the scripture does not say we are to ask whether these things are true or not, but that we are to ask “if these things are not true.” What is the difference?

The Lord does not ask us to prove that the teachings we have read are true, or that they are not true. That is the kind of objective approach one might take in the academic, scientific world. However, that is not the best way we learn truth from the Lord.

The Lord offers us the opportunity to let him confirm truth already in our hearts. But in order to confirm religious truth, one must at least have the idea, or the thought, or the belief (however small) that he has found something true, and then pray to receive the Lord’s confirmation.

Verse 4 [Moro. 10:4], then, is the Lord’s invitation, through Moroni, to thus confirm truth. To ask “if these things are not true” implies a degree of acceptance that comes as a result of our pondering the teachings of the Book of Mormon that we have received. Notice again the importance of that very first step—remembering the mercy of God to us since the Creation—and then the next step, which is to similarly ponder and receive the teachings of the Book of Mormon. Surely such pondering of these teachings will bring to mind their truth, their power, their goodness. Thus, it is now tantamount to praying, “Father, I believe that I have received truth. Please tell me if this is not so.” This kind of humble petition is motivated by our faith in Christ, by our faith that he will let us know whether our feelings are correct concerning the Book of Mormon or whether we have been deceived. Thus, our prayer, in essence, is a request for a confirmation of our own conclusions from our pondering. The Lord may not respond exactly how and when we expect, but still our obedience to these conditions qualifies us to receive an answer; this is the scope of the process described in these verses (Source).

By-the-way, I believe the first part of Elder Cook's talk provides an answer to your concern with Ether 5, specifically.

-Finrock

Edited December 10, 2013 by Finrock
Fixed error and added clarification.

[Finrock]

Here is something else from the talk that I felt was relevant. Perhaps I am wrong but if not then please accept this perspective:

Elder Cook is speaking about an experience he had with a friend of his who was not LDS. Elder Cook and his friend were speaking about the Book of Mormon.

In the course of our conversation, I asked him to explain to me once again how he was reading the Book of Mormon. He said he was reading it to find out if it were true. While we were talking, it dawned on him that he had never read the Bible that way; he had always read it in faith that it was from the Lord, and then he had sought confirmation of its truths. He had a change of spiritual perspective as he realized that the process for reading the Book of Mormon should be exactly the same. He promised me that he would honestly ask God in the same manner; he would treat the Book of Mormon as truth—as the word of God, like the Bible—and would humbly and receptively seek a confirmation (Source).

This is how we must approach all matters of faith. God has given us senses to feel and discern right from wrong. We all have the Light of Christ. The Holy Spirit can also help guide us to truth. When we feel that we have found truth, because it tastes good to us, it is this feeling that we must confirm with God. Why? Well, first of all, our feelings could be deceived. Satan could be trying to fool us. So what is the remedy? God is saying that when you feel something is true because you think it is of God, then ask Him to let you know if what you feel is true is not true. If we do this in the manner prescribed then God will, in His way and in His time, most assuredly confirm the truth of it to you by the power of the Holy Ghost. This spiritual confirmation will seal your feelings or it will abolish them.

-Finrock

[tovarisch]

Sorry for my late response to these posts.

I came across Elder Holland's talk from 2009 or 2010 (and made into a Mormon Message in 2010). If you haven't seen it, I highly suggest it:

Finrock, I really appreciate you highlighting Elder Cook's words about treating the Book of Mormon with faith. Since I've been investigating the church, my view on the Book of Mormon has gone from skeptical to faithfully accepting. There are things I do not understand or occasionally make me question, but those are few compared to the warmth I feel when I read. For example, I am working my way through Mosiah again, and my testimony grows with every paragraph.

My prayers have changed from only asking for discernment about the Book of Mormon to both thanking Heavenly Father for the Book of Mormon and asking for discernment.

We all just passed the chapter in the President Snow manual about Joseph Smith. I absolutely loved the fact that while President Snow knew the Prophet Joseph as well as any church leader, President Snow didn't base his belief in Joseph's teachings because Joseph was kind, strong, or spiritual. President Snow based his beliefs on a testimony confirmed by the power of the Holy Spirit:

As to [Joseph Smith] being a man of truth and honor I, nor any one else that knew him, have any reason to question for a moment. But then I never went forth to preach the principles of this Gospel depending entirely upon any information I received through him or any other man; but I believed on his words, coming as they did to me as the words of truth, from an inspired man of God. … The Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost which all men may receive and enjoy, … confirmed the truth of what he had told me, and it became knowledge to me of that nature which no man can give nor take away.

All of that said, I reserve the right to have periods of doubt in the future. :-) Though through prayer I hope to get through them with a stronger testimony.

[Finrock]

Sorry for my late response to these posts.

I came across Elder Holland's talk from 2009 or 2010 (and made into a Mormon Message in 2010). If you haven't seen it, I highly suggest it:

Finrock, I really appreciate you highlighting Elder Cook's words about treating the Book of Mormon with faith. Since I've been investigating the church, my view on the Book of Mormon has gone from skeptical to faithfully accepting. There are things I do not understand or occasionally make me question, but those are few compared to the warmth I feel when I read. For example, I am working my way through Mosiah again, and my testimony grows with every paragraph.

My prayers have changed from only asking for discernment about the Book of Mormon to both thanking Heavenly Father for the Book of Mormon and asking for discernment.

We all just passed the chapter in the President Snow manual about Joseph Smith. I absolutely loved the fact that while President Snow knew the Prophet Joseph as well as any church leader, President Snow didn't base his belief in Joseph's teachings because Joseph was kind, strong, or spiritual. President Snow based his beliefs on a testimony confirmed by the power of the Holy Spirit:

All of that said, I reserve the right to have periods of doubt in the future. :-) Though through prayer I hope to get through them with a stronger testimony.

Heck yeah! Awesome post.

-Finrock