Would the Savior apologize and ask forgiveness?

[Traveler]

This is more interesting than ever. From my own experience it is the feelings of guilt and blame that are the greatest of all punishments for sin that I personally have experienced. In fact, it seems to me that all other problems (punishments) associated with sin - I can handle myself - especially if someone says they forgive me. It is that lingering realization that I am guilty and to blame that is the one thing I cannot seem to get rid of myself.

And the conciseness is that Jesus does everything (taking it upon himself) except removing the blame and guilt???? Really???? To what purpose is there need of G-d to suffer and I now wonder - to suffer what? The other stuff - at least for me - is no big deal. In fact - except for blame and guilt a lot of sin - at least the ones that tempt me and that I would consider any involvement would be a lot of fun?????

The Traveler

[Guest]

This is more interesting than ever. From my own experience it is the feelings of guilt and blame that are the greatest of all punishments for sin that I personally have experienced. In fact, it seems to me that all other problems (punishments) associated with sin - I can handle myself - especially if someone says they forgive me. It is that lingering realization that I am guilty and to blame that is the one thing I cannot seem to get rid of myself.

And the conciseness is that Jesus does everything (taking it upon himself) except removing the blame and guilt???? Really???? To what purpose is there need of G-d to suffer and I now wonder - to suffer what? The other stuff - at least for me - is no big deal. In fact - except for blame and guilt a lot of sin - at least the ones that tempt me and that I would consider any involvement would be a lot of fun?????

The Traveler

Yes, the blame and guilt are the greatest of all punishments FOR US MORTALS. It is what we must overcome ourselves as part of our repentance process to come to Christ. ETERNAL SPIRITUAL DEATH is the punishment that we can't ever repay that is demanded by Justice. Ever. And that's what Jesus Christ overcame for us so we can come back to God. So, in the Justice versus Mercy conflict, Jesus Christ paid the full price of our sins to the Father, we pay the smaller price to Christ. We are not completely free of it until we repent. So, that overbearing guilt you feel? That is something you need to overcome to fully repent of your sins. We weren't promised that it would be easy. Only that it is possible.

So, in the OP presented by Vort, admitting a sin for somebody else to free him of it is not what is needed. Forgiving the person who sinned without needing the other person to apologize is what is needed. That is peacemaking.

Edited November 20, 2013 by anatess

[Traveler]

Yes, the blame and guilt are the greatest of all punishments FOR US MORTALS. It is what we must overcome ourselves as part of our repentance process to come to Christ. ETERNAL SPIRITUAL DEATH is the punishment that we can't ever repay that is demanded by Justice. Ever. And that's what Jesus Christ overcame for us so we can come back to God. So, in the Justice versus Mercy conflict, Jesus Christ paid the full price of our sins to the Father, we pay the smaller price to Christ. We are not completely free of it until we repent. So, that overbearing guilt you feel? That is something you need to overcome to fully repent of your sins. We weren't promised that it would be easy. Only that it is possible.

So, in the OP presented by Vort, admitting a sin for somebody else to free him of it is not what is needed. Forgiving the person who sinned without needing the other person to apologize is what is needed. That is peacemaking.

In my youth I did many things that were not "Christ Like" - and to be honest, I still do but there is one thing that haunts me to this day that I have never gotten over - something for which I need much more help in my repentance. I grew up with a wonderful young girl. We were friends (not really best friends but friends) since grade school. In high school I would always make room for her at my lunch table because she was not popular. She was putty and very charming but at a very young age had polio and had much difficulty walking with crutches that clipped on to her arms. Her arms were incredibly strong.

Many years later I found out how painful high school had been for her because she never had a date and never went to a dance. I dated half the girls in my high school of about 1,000 students. My last year of high school before I was joined the army (I finished high school in the army) I dated 50 girls (it was a contest thing with my friends). The truth is that I did not really have a girl friend but lots of girl friends and Betty was one I could have asked out but I never did - no one ever did.

I found out years later how deeply Betty was hurt by me and my other male classmates for never considering her dating material. I had thought she would not enjoy a dance because I thought it might embarrass her. Looking back she hinted to many guys to ask her out - including me - but I was too stupid to see or think that she was in pain. I found out later that I was one of her biggest disappointments because she thought we were good enough friends that I would ask her out. All my excuses now are just foolishness.

Now I do not want anyone to think that I worry about this everyday or that once I learned of the pain I caused I have not attempted to do something. It is just that whenever someone ask if there is a sin I have not fully repented of - this is there. I have given up speaking of this in temple recommend interviews because it gives the impression that it is the worse thing I have ever done - hardly! It is just that one thing to which I can't seem to get over the guilt of. The one thing that saying, "I'm sorry" does not work - nor have my prayers.

It is the one hope that I have in the atonement - that I have come to believe Christ will take upon him - my guilt and comfort me and Betty - that he will take the blame upon himself to end it. I honestly believe the Jesus will end my guilt an Betty's sorrow and regret by making both his own.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

And the conciseness is that Jesus does everything (taking it upon himself) except removing the blame and guilt???? Really???? To what purpose is there need of G-d to suffer and I now wonder - to suffer what? The other stuff - at least for me - is no big deal. In fact - except for blame and guilt a lot of sin - at least the ones that tempt me and that I would consider any involvement would be a lot of fun?????

The Traveler

I'm at a loss. Why would you accept Christ's gift of eternal life, but not accept his forgiveness? So often, when a convert is sincere, we first see tears and crying--even groaning. The realization of shame and guilt before a holy God is difficult. However, then the cleansing comes. God forgives. The Holy Spirit enters. The weight of guilt is lifted. A soul is redeemed, and angels in heaven are rejoicing! Hallelujah!

Is your contention that unless Christ says he committed your sin you must bear the guilt and shame, even if He forgives--even if He promises that it shall be forgetten--sent away as far as the east is from the west? The old-timers in church would say, "Put those bad feelings on the altar brother! Lay them at the cross."

[jbeggs]

Did you not see the scripture I offered in post #7?

The Traveler

Actually that is the perfect example. Thank you.

[Anddenex]

Is it a Godly act to admit wrong when you know for a fact that you were not in the wrong?

In reference to a "Godly" personage I do not believe it is a "Godly act" to admit wrong when no wrong was committed. This question brings to my remembrance when the Lord specifies he and he alone has the right to forgive whom he will forgive, but we are required to forgive all men.

In reference to your question I recognize the key phrase "admit wrong" and do not believe a perfect personage needs to admit any wrong when they have responded with perfection -- emotionally, physically, and spiritually; yet, when confronted by the honest of heart they would respond with compassion, mercy, and grace. As the Lord of the vineyard declared, "Counsel me not..."

Is it good to apologize in order to try to make peace when the fault lies with other parties, perhaps the very people to whom you are apologizing?

The answer to this question appears two fold in my minds eye in relation to our dual nature -- flesh and spirit. God is no longer a dual nature because the flesh is subject to the spirit, or God is a being that acts and is not acted upon.

Humankind, however have not reached a state of perfection and are constantly in a revolving state between flesh and spirit, between acting and being acted upon; as such, though we may act within the bounds of righteousness, without wrong, our response is not always right (perfection). This leads me to believe that in our best desire and efforts to act in accordance with truth, our actions may not have been how a God would have responded; thus, there may be need to apologize even to the offender to bring peace; or as the Lord specified if we know a brother hath ought against us, to go and make peace. In our desire to make peace we must, as the Lord commanded, recognize the beam within our own eye before we can remove the mote from our brother's eye.

These are my thoughts Vort.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

I'm at a loss. Why would you accept Christ's gift of eternal life, but not accept his forgiveness? So often, when a convert is sincere, we first see tears and crying--even groaning. The realization of shame and guilt before a holy God is difficult. However, then the cleansing comes. God forgives. The Holy Spirit enters. The weight of guilt is lifted. A soul is redeemed, and angels in heaven are rejoicing! Hallelujah!

Is your contention that unless Christ says he committed your sin you must bear the guilt and shame, even if He forgives--even if He promises that it shall be forgetten--sent away as far as the east is from the west? The old-timers in church would say, "Put those bad feelings on the altar brother! Lay them at the cross."

I am not sure you understand the question. The question is not who committed the sin but who takes on the responsibility, the blame, the shame and the guilt of the sin. The symbolism is that with sin there is a debt that must be paid. In addition what give G-d the right to forgive sin? I believe the answer is that he, G-d, takes it upon himself all aspects of the sin and all debt associated with it. Including the guilt, shame and sorrow? Why is Jesus called a man of sorrow?

It would appear that it does not make sense to you any more than to me that Jesus would or even could do such a thing. Yet, I do see that somehow in order that we may also forgive others and to stand by G-d something has to change everything. The guilt and shame is turned into a bond that changes us creating a bond to G-d and a higher cause that overcomes. But it most certainly falls eternally short and the gift dies within us such that we do not treat others as G-d has entreated us such that their sorrows become ours. (See Book of Mormon - Mosiah 18:8) I do not think we can justify such a thing until we are able ourselves to take upon us someone else’s sin - Which only has sense to me in my role as a husband and father.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

If it helps, I do believe that Jesus was clothed in our guilt and shame, as He bore our sins. His cry of anguish, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" suggests the beginning of that experience. Could it be that when we fail to forgive ourselves we are attempting to repay a debt that is already cleared?

[Traveler]

If it helps, I do believe that Jesus was clothed in our guilt and shame, as He bore our sins. His cry of anguish, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" suggests the beginning of that experience. Could it be that when we fail to forgive ourselves we are attempting to repay a debt that is already cleared?

Or fail to allow or let Christ take the all the blame and apologize for our sins as though it was actually all his fault?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

If anything, it's more like the whipping boy scenario. Kings used to hire village boys to befriend their prince-sons. Once a bond of friendship was established between the prince and the village boy, whenever the prince misbehaved the village boy would be punished--whipped. As the prince would hear his dear friend's cries of pain, his remorse would be so great, that he seldom misbehaved again.

There is no illusion here that the whipping boy did the misdeed. He took the punishment for the prince. The guilt was indeed gone. The punishment had been given, and all was forgiven. The prince's guilt proved curative.

Likewise, Jesus does not pretend that he did our sin. His payment cures us, and covers us. The punishment is paid. We see our Savior and our momentary guilt gives way to relief, gratitude, and honorable living.

[Traveler]

If anything, it's more like the whipping boy scenario. Kings used to hire village boys to befriend their prince-sons. Once a bond of friendship was established between the prince and the village boy, whenever the prince misbehaved the village boy would be punished--whipped. As the prince would hear his dear friend's cries of pain, his remorse would be so great, that he seldom misbehaved again.

There is no illusion here that the whipping boy did the misdeed. He took the punishment for the prince. The guilt was indeed gone. The punishment had been given, and all was forgiven. The prince's guilt proved curative.

Likewise, Jesus does not pretend that he did our sin. His payment cures us, and covers us. The punishment is paid. We see our Savior and our momentary guilt gives way to relief, gratitude, and honorable living.

Just making sure - in your mind and heart you would have no guilt if someone unjustly and as a unjust lie suffers your blame? It is not that I intend to criticize you - my friend - but I do not think your example is even close. Perhaps I might agree to a small part if the queen and mother of the prince took the punishment in secret for not raising the prince correctly. And then I believe that the prince would actually feel more guilt once he understood what pain he had caused his mother.

For sure once the prince learned of his mother's sacrifice the only way he can demonstrate that he understands (and in any mitigate what was done for him) is to takes upon him the punishment that should go to his friend.

The Traveler

[Guest]

I have to say, I'm completely lost on this thread.

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, I believe I understand what you are suggestion--that for Jesus to take our guilt away, he must somehow become truly culpable. We can only be free from guilt if our sins are not only Christ's to pay for--but they really become his fault. Anything less, you seem to say, and we still bare the worst part of sin--the guilt.

Isn't that guilt a necessary ingredient to our repentence though? Does it not serve to drive us towards God and godliness? When our shame causes us to condemn ourselves, to withdraw, to become inwardly negative, those are not God-ordained reactions. They are not necessary--and, sometimes are signals of pride, of spiritual rebellion (unwillingness to live under God's grace), and sometimes even of demonic distortion. Healthy guilt convicts us of sin and moves us towards the Savior.

[Smeagums]

What do you think? Is it a Godly act to admit wrong when you know for a fact that you were not in the wrong? Is it good to apologize in order to try to make peace when the fault lies with other parties, perhaps the very people to whom you are apologizing? If so, can you find any scriptural examples of this or other teachings that explicitly counsel this path?

I mean delivery is one thing. You should never be rude or insulting BUT the Truth is a double edged sword and should offend people!

Let the Truth offend and work within people.

[Traveler]

Traveler, I believe I understand what you are suggestion--that for Jesus to take our guilt away, he must somehow become truly culpable. We can only be free from guilt if our sins are not only Christ's to pay for--but they really become his fault. Anything less, you seem to say, and we still bare the worst part of sin--the guilt.

Isn't that guilt a necessary ingredient to our repentence though? Does it not serve to drive us towards God and godliness? When our shame causes us to condemn ourselves, to withdraw, to become inwardly negative, those are not God-ordained reactions. They are not necessary--and, sometimes are signals of pride, of spiritual rebellion (unwillingness to live under God's grace), and sometimes even of demonic distortion. Healthy guilt convicts us of sin and moves us towards the Savior.

I think we somewhat agree - it is just that I see what I think is one last step - that I do not think you see??? not sure. But I see that because Jesus took the suffering and guilt of our sins that we become so drawn to him and his willing to take and suffer guilt - that we join him in taking the guilt (not for our sins but those that transgress against us) and suffer with Christ for them.

The person that says, "I forgive but I will never forget" - has not taken that last step (which is the most difficult of all steps). It means that not only do we accept the suffering of Christ for us but we are willing to suffer with him for others. This is also why G-d says he remembers our sins no more - which is not a laps in memory but in every way the truth - because they have become his burden and his sorrow - they are his and no longer belong to us.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

We're a half step apart. I agree that the truly redeemed must forgive those who trespass against them. However, forgetting? Not so fast.

I have in mind victims of abuse, or even of marital infidelity. They may truly and completely forgive the abuser--turning them over to the Father's hands. However, forgiveness and trust are separate issues. It may not be wise for the victim to take the abuser back into trust. Trust may not even be warranted. Jesus even allows that unfaithfulness in marriage is a permissable reason for divorce. Trust is broken. Sometimes it cannot be restored. I would not say that the victims in these circumstances--who certainly have not forgotten--are guilty of failing to forgive, or of failing to be drawn to Jesus' example of forgiveness.

[NightSG]

What do you think? Is it a Godly act to admit wrong when you know for a fact that you were not in the wrong? Is it good to apologize in order to try to make peace when the fault lies with other parties, perhaps the very people to whom you are apologizing? If so, can you find any scriptural examples of this or other teachings that explicitly counsel this path?

5 pages, and you still haven't told us what it was that you did.

[Vort]

5 pages, and you still haven't told us what it was that you did.

I had no specific incident in mind. It's a question I have had for a long time. On a purely definitional level, it seems less than honest. On a personal level, I have found it to be the best policy to:

1. Always 'fess up to whatever I did wrong, as soon as I realize I was wrong, and

2. Never, never, NEVER admit to being wrong when I know or strongly believe I was not.

Yet there have been times when someone has apologized to me that made me feel better, and later on I realized they were right all along and I was the one in the wrong.

If it's pride that's keeping me from apologizing when I'm not in the wrong, then that's insufficient. And I concede that it may be pride. But it seems to me that it's more than merely pride (though that is probably an element); it's a desire for integrity, not just personal integrity but integrity in my interaction with others.

I sincerely would like to know what God would do in such a situation. I simply cannot imagine Jesus saying, "Yes, you're right, I was wrong, and I'm so very sorry about my mistake" if he knew very well that he was not in the wrong. But "I'm so very sorry you're feeling that way" is not at all the same thing, and will not generate the same response. People get insulted when they hear you apologize for how stupidly inappropriate their feelings are -- even when they really are stupidly inappropriate.

An easy answer is, "We aren't Jesus. We aren't perfect. We do offend people, and we aren't omniscient, so we can't know for certain that something is not really our fault. So we should apologize even if we think we're in the right." And this may very well be the truth. But to my mind, it's a copout. The Savior is supposed to be our example in all things. If there is a perfect way to act, I can't believe that perfect way is to pretend you're guilty of something you manifestly are not guilty of.

Then again, when we are imperfect people, sometimes we may not be capable of following the perfect route, and we are left to make the best of a bad situation by choosing the lesser of the evils before us. And maybe apologizing for something you know you didn't do wrong is the lesser of evils in some situations.

Don't know. That's why I'm looking for discussion and insight.

[Anddenex]

Vort, I think you might like this experience once shared in a sacrament talk by a young woman while I attended singles ward.

She shared how she was the youngest daughter and her father when she was 16, if I am remembering correctly was in his mid sixties. She shared how her father was very uncool, old fashioned, and embarrassing (seeing she wanted to be popular), especially when he would drop her off at school functions. She shared how one day when he was driving her to a school function to let him know how she felt, and let him know how he embarrassed her. When she finished speaking her father's reaction surprised her and changed her life.

After she finished, her father looked at her and then tears began to role down his cheeks, and he simply said, "I am sorry I am not the father you want me to be. I am sorry I am not the cool father in town." I don't remember her exact words but he continued to apologize that he couldn't live up to her standards of what a father should be.

She shared, from that moment my life changed and I began to love my father and I began to realize what a great man he was, and I was sorrowful that I hurt such a great man's heart. He was the father, if I am remembering correctly of six girls.

[Guest]

I had no specific incident in mind. It's a question I have had for a long time. On a purely definitional level, it seems less than honest. On a personal level, I have found it to be the best policy to:

1. Always 'fess up to whatever I did wrong, as soon as I realize I was wrong, and

2. Never, never, NEVER admit to being wrong when I know or strongly believe I was not.

Yet there have been times when someone has apologized to me that made me feel better, and later on I realized they were right all along and I was the one in the wrong.

If it's pride that's keeping me from apologizing when I'm not in the wrong, then that's insufficient. And I concede that it may be pride. But it seems to me that it's more than merely pride (though that is probably an element); it's a desire for integrity, not just personal integrity but integrity in my interaction with others.

I sincerely would like to know what God would do in such a situation. I simply cannot imagine Jesus saying, "Yes, you're right, I was wrong, and I'm so very sorry about my mistake" if he knew very well that he was not in the wrong. But "I'm so very sorry you're feeling that way" is not at all the same thing, and will not generate the same response. People get insulted when they hear you apologize for how stupidly inappropriate their feelings are -- even when they really are stupidly inappropriate.

An easy answer is, "We aren't Jesus. We aren't perfect. We do offend people, and we aren't omniscient, so we can't know for certain that something is not really our fault. So we should apologize even if we think we're in the right." And this may very well be the truth. But to my mind, it's a copout. The Savior is supposed to be our example in all things. If there is a perfect way to act, I can't believe that perfect way is to pretend you're guilty of something you manifestly are not guilty of.

Then again, when we are imperfect people, sometimes we may not be capable of following the perfect route, and we are left to make the best of a bad situation by choosing the lesser of the evils before us. And maybe apologizing for something you know you didn't do wrong is the lesser of evils in some situations.

Don't know. That's why I'm looking for discussion and insight.

This just happened to me a few days ago in this here forum! It's in that "Last movie you saw" thread.

I said something... pam knocked me down a peg... I had no clue what she was saying as I never intended to insult anybody... She (or somebody else I think it was) explained to me what I did wrong and I sat on my computer pondering this situation:

- I did not intend to do wrong. Somebody misunderstood what I said and took offense. Who should apologize? The person who misunderstood what I said, or me for not saying it clearer in the first place?

You know what I did - I went ahead and apologized. But, to be honest... I did not apologize because I thought I did something wrong. I apologized because the other person misunderstood what I said. This goes against everything I learned growing up. The words, "I'm sorry" is different from "I apologize". I could say, I'm sorry you feel that way - it's not an apology or admission of guilt but merely sympathy or empathy. I apologize is something totally different - it means you truly see how you are wrong and is ready to repent for it. So, to me, saying I apologize when you don't believe you are in the wrong is a mockery of the power of that word. But, I find it's the American thing to do, so I do it anyway. When in Rome, you know... But, in the case of that thread, if I would have said I'm sorry you feel that way as opposed to I apologize, I think the other party would have interpretted it as more of an insult because, I wouldn't "let them win" (yes, I wasn't in it to win or lose but somehow, everything seems to go that route - like there's no satisfaction unless somebody says you're right, I'm wrong - hello, LGBT).

Well there you go... That's my confession of the day.

In any case... there are two complimentary forces here... APOLOGY and FORGIVENESS. What I learned is that you apologize the minute you realize you are wrong.... not before. It signifies that you are ready for repentance. But you forgive regardless of whether an apology is present or not. Seventy times seven times. And therein lies the difference in this thread. If one does not forgive unless an apology is vocalized, then an apology shifts from being an act of repentance to an act of kindness to free somebody else to forgive and start healing.

Edited November 22, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

Vort, I think you might like this experience once shared in a sacrament talk by a young woman while I attended singles ward.

She shared how she was the youngest daughter and her father when she was 16, if I am remembering correctly was in his mid sixties. She shared how her father was very uncool, old fashioned, and embarrassing (seeing she wanted to be popular), especially when he would drop her off at school functions. She shared how one day when he was driving her to a school function to let him know how she felt, and let him know how he embarrassed her. When she finished speaking her father's reaction surprised her and changed her life.

After she finished, her father looked at her and then tears began to role down his cheeks, and he simply said, "I am sorry I am not the father you want me to be. I am sorry I am not the cool father in town." I don't remember her exact words but he continued to apologize that he couldn't live up to her standards of what a father should be.

She shared, from that moment my life changed and I began to love my father and I began to realize what a great man he was, and I was sorrowful that I hurt such a great man's heart. He was the father, if I am remembering correctly of six girls.

I think this is not truly an I'm sorry I did something wrong situation. It's a different usage of the word Sorry which does not equate Apology. See my post above.

[Anddenex]

I think this is not truly an I'm sorry I did something wrong situation. It's a different usage of the word Sorry which does not equate Apology. See my post above.

I understand this is your interpretation of a second hand explanation.

[Guest]

I understand this is your interpretation of a second hand explanation.

I read this sentence 5 times and I can't figure out what you're trying to say... can you rephrase it for me? Thanks.

[Traveler]

We're a half step apart. I agree that the truly redeemed must forgive those who trespass against them. However, forgetting? Not so fast.

I have in mind victims of abuse, or even of marital infidelity. They may truly and completely forgive the abuser--turning them over to the Father's hands. However, forgiveness and trust are separate issues. It may not be wise for the victim to take the abuser back into trust. Trust may not even be warranted. Jesus even allows that unfaithfulness in marriage is a permissable reason for divorce. Trust is broken. Sometimes it cannot be restored. I would not say that the victims in these circumstances--who certainly have not forgotten--are guilty of failing to forgive, or of failing to be drawn to Jesus' example of forgiveness.

I am quite sure this will be misunderstood - but a person still enduring suffering for themselves (their own benefit) is not capable of suffering for the benefit of others.

The Traveler

[Guest]

I am quite sure this will be misunderstood - but a person still enduring suffering for themselves (their own benefit) is not capable of suffering for the benefit of others.

The Traveler

I disagree with this.

When Jesus told his apostles to love one another, he demonstrated it by washing their feet. This shows clearly that Love is Service. And tying this with the great commandment to love others as we love ourselves, we understand that we are to be in service to others as we serve ourselves. Therefore, when one is suffering, it is to his advantage to be of service to others so he can heal. Because... it is when we lose ourselves in service to others that we find ourselves.