Tithing question

[yjacket]

So a couple of points:

BYUI LDS Tuition 1825, non-LDS Tuition 3650

BYU 2425 4850

So LDS Tuition is half. Now if LDS tuition was not subsidized by tithing it would probably be about 2750 for BYUI and 3250 for BYU. One figures that the true rate of tuition is lowered for LDS and raised for non-LDS so without the break it would be at least half the difference as much.

So by going to BYUI your kid is receiving at least 1k, possibly 1825 in tuition assistance for being LDS. We don't know that all of that break comes from tithing money, but we could assume it is. So in one year your child is getting ~3k in benefits. Now how much do you pay in tithing . . . 5-6k a year? So while your kid is in school (if you pay the schooling for him) you are getting half your tithing back.

But what about me? I don't live anywhere close to BYU, my kids won't go there, I didn't go there. I'm completely outraged that I don't get to benefit from the same subsidy!!! There are over 132 temples in operation. I will probably only get to visit a dozen of those in my lifetime; I'm completely outraged that I do not see the direct benefits of all my tithing money. I'm sure that some cent of my tithing money went to a temple in Africa.

The last paragraph was tongue-in-cheek; but the point is that when we give our money voluntarily to the church we should give it freely without any reservation of how or where it is spent. Put blankly, tithing money is used to benefit members of the church as a whole. Not one item on the list of where tithing goes is used for the direct benefit of non-members. Tithing is not a user fee, but it only makes sense that it should go to benefit the membership of the church as a whole. All other major religions actually pay their clergy, we do not; the operating expenses of the church are paid by tithing. I would guess that the majority of funds to build chapels and temples in places like Africa come from US church members.

Why doesn't it go to feeding the poor; well I've never read anything like this, but my guess is that to a large degree charitable works should be conducted by the local wards in their local areas. It's too easy for people to get an entitlement mentality when they do not see who is directly giving them a hand-up. Up until about 50 years ago the local ward buildings were built with either the direct tithing funds of the local members in the area or it was actually built by them.

As for for-profit businesses. I imagine they probably got started by either church members donating companies to the church or donating their time to those companies. Eventually as they brought in revenue their revenue paid for their expenese. Currently for-profit business owned by the church are self-sustaining-i.e. they don't need outside sources of funding (like tithing) to help them out.

Ultimately, tithing is an act of faith. Faith on our part that the stewards of the money will use those funds in an appropriate manner. If one does not feel that the money is being used in an appropriate manner, then don't pay tithing, that's fine . . . just don't expect to see the benefits of paying tithing.

Edited December 28, 2013 by yjacket

[skippy740]

One more thing.No one answered my question about for profit businesses.How does the church pay for those? Where does that money come from? My husband didn't know.

You didn't read my post.

I guess because it looks like it's long and it's a conference talk.

Now, the next question: “Why is the Church in business?”

We have a few business interests. Not many. Most of these were begun in very early days when the Church was the only organization that could provide the capital that was needed to start certain business interests designed to serve the people in this remote area. We have divested ourselves long since of some of these where it was felt there was no longer a need. Included in these divestitures, for instance, was the old Consolidated Wagon and Machine Company, which did well in the days of wagons and horse-drawn farm machinery. The company outlived its usefulness.

The Church sold the banks which it once held. As good banking services developed in the community, there was no longer any need for Church-owned banks.

Some of these business interests directly serve the needs of the Church. For instance, our business is communication. We must speak with people across the world. We must speak at home to let our stand be known, and abroad to acquaint others with our work. And so we own a newspaper, the Deseret News, the oldest business institution in Utah.

We likewise own television and radio stations. These provide a voice in the communities which they serve. I may add that we are sometimes embarrassed by network television presentations. Our people do the best they can to minimize the impact of these.

We have a real estate arm designed primarily to ensure the viability and the attractiveness of properties surrounding Temple Square. The core of many cities has deteriorated terribly. This cannot be said of Salt Lake City, although you may disagree as you try to get to the Tabernacle these days. We have tried to see that this part of the community is kept attractive and viable. With the beautiful grounds of Temple Square and the adjoining block to the east, we maintain gardens the equal of any in the world. This area will become even more attractive when the facility now being constructed on Main Street is completed and the large Conference Center to the north is finished.

Are these businesses operated for profit? Of course they are. They operate in a competitive world. They pay taxes. They are important citizens of this community. And they produce a profit, and from that profit comes the money which is used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Foundation to help with charitable and worthwhile causes in this community and abroad and, more particularly, to assist in the great humanitarian efforts of the Church.

These businesses contribute one-tenth of their profit to the Foundation. The Foundation cannot give to itself or to other Church entities, but it can use its resources to assist other causes, which it does so generously. Millions of dollars have been so distributed. Thousands upon thousands have been fed. They have been supplied with medicine. They have been supplied with clothing and shelter in times of great emergency and terrible distress. How grateful I feel for the beneficence of this great Foundation which derives its resources from the business interests of the Church.

Edited December 28, 2013 by skippy740

[john doe]

One more thing.No one answered my question about for profit businesses.How does the church pay for those? Where does that money come from? My husband didn't know.

The Church has a number of self-sustaining for-profit ventures which are not funded by tithing. It is possible that at one time in the distant past some of these entities may have been started with tithing funds. It is just as possible, and just as likely, that these entities were funded with non-tithing donations from members of the Church. Sometimes the Church is the recipient of funds, stocks, land, and other properties from wealthy (or not-so-wealthy) members who wish to give more to the Church than just tithes.

These for-profit entities do not currently receive any tithing funds, nor have they for many decades. They are run like any for-profit business and are subject to the same tax laws as any corporation or company. They are self-supporting and if they were to suffer losses, they have enough reserve funds set aside (non-tithing) to make adjustments such as closing locations, laying off employees, or selling assets, just as any other for-profit company would do to survive hard economic times.

The City Creek complex in Salt Lake City was built by one of these for-profit entities. Tithing dollars were not used in its construction or operation, nor do I expect that they would ever be used. My expectation is that if that project were to collapse, it would be closed or sold off before the Church ever thought of propping it up with tithing monies. I work less than a mile from this project, and have never been there. I don't expect to shop there in the near future. I don't have any thoughts of going there to walk around and say "my tithing paid for this nice place", because it didn't.

I don't walk into Deseret Book and expect a Church Member Discount or some other perk, because that isn't part of their business plan. I also don't go out of my way to give them my business just because they are owned by the Church. In my own personal experience, I have found that if I shop around a little I can find many of the same offerings other places for less money. That doesn't offend me, and I highly doubt that offends the Church or God that I don't often shop at these for-profit ventures.

Sometimes we get caught up in the idea that just because something is owned by the Church, it somehow belongs to us and we have a right to entry based merely on our Church membership or our tithe-paying status. That's not the way things work. We pay tithing because it's a commandment, and once that money enters the Church's coffers, that is the end of our concern. It's no longer our money. It belongs to The Lord. We expect that those monies will be used to fund the affairs of the Church, but that doesn't mean that 14+million members all have to agree on how it is spent before it gets used. We as believing members trust that our Church leaders will be guided by revelation and inspiration as to the best way to use those funds.

[pooter1]

Sorry Skippy.I guess you did answer that question.My bad. I guess for me and my situation its hard to see tithing going to education and beautiful temples when you look at your own house falling apart and juggling bills. We were just informed that my husband will not get any kind of raise this coming year. Somewhere someone taught me that paying your tithing would bring blessings. I think I was thinking I would be blessed financially and I guess that is not true but is still a commandment and I still have the desire to keep the commandment.

[pam]

I'm sure you are aware that paying tithing does not guarantee financial blessings. We are promised blessings but not necessarily financial. :)

Part of paying tithing and receiving blessings is faith.

[pooter1]

I am aware now Pam. I just wonder what made me think it did.

[Guest]

Paying tithing with a "what's in it for me" attitude kind of removes the faith aspect of it.

[estradling75]

Many have a problem with a church being involved with a for profit business. But historically the Church has always been in the business side. Joseph Smith is known as a temple builder, and to a lesser extent a city builder (Independence, Nauvoo etc..) But people really kind of gloss over what it takes to build a city. Joseph Smith planned for all kinds of civic centers in his cities.

Joseph Smith was involved in banks (which failed) and there was even a revelation from the Lord about funding a hotel by selling stock (Nauvoo House)

It seems to me that if Joseph Smith was alive today something like a mall would be something he would be working on

[skippy740]

An excellent talk by Elder Bednar on the blessings of tithing from this past General Conference:

The Windows of Heaven - Ensign Nov. 2013 - ensign

[pooter1]

Eowyn, It was more how am I gonna make ends meet rather than whats in it for me. I don't know why I believed paying my tithing would help me pay my bills. I heard testimony after testimony"I don't know how but my bills are always paid at the end of the month" or "A check I hadn't been expecting showed up in the mail" Im guessing it was the testimonies and stories I had heard others say.I don't think its doctrine is it? You know what helped us pay our bills? My kids growing up and I finally got a job because for whatever other reason I thought I was suppose to stay home and raise my kids. How did I get so messed up in my beliefs or what I thought they were. Maybe I better start with the discussions again and re learn this religon.I feel so stupid now. The church is the most correct but not perfect.The church does not guarantee happiness.Paying tithing does not mean your bills will be paid. My thought process all these years has been so messed up.Am I the only one ?

[talisyn]

Sorry Skippy.I guess you did answer that question.My bad. I guess for me and my situation its hard to see tithing going to education and beautiful temples when you look at your own house falling apart and juggling bills. We were just informed that my husband will not get any kind of raise this coming year. Somewhere someone taught me that paying your tithing would bring blessings. I think I was thinking I would be blessed financially and I guess that is not true but is still a commandment and I still have the desire to keep the commandment.

My newly-converted husband asked this a few weeks ago when we were going over bills, so we had a nice little talk about appreciating the blessings God gives us. I'm glad you still want to obey this great commandment, I know it's blessed you (and me) in many ways. Keep the faith!

I see the way tithing is distributed sort of how I see taxes distributed. If you don't want your taxes to fund the military, then think of them as funding upkeep of the Lincoln Memorial. If you don't want your tithing going to Church-run universities, think of it going to upkeep of your meeting house, or the flowers on Temple Square. I don't know about you, but I don't pay enough tithing to worry about being the sole support of any Church-run operation

[Dravin]

Angel, your post brings to mind this post of mine, it is in response to the topic of asking for blessings but I think it is reasonably relevant here: http://www.lds.net/forums/learn-about-mormon-church/45540-what-blessings-do-we-deserve-them.html#post658926

The short version: We can expect blessings, but when we start expecting blessings to come in a certain form when they aren't specified to come in such a form we run into problems.

[Leah]

Leah, The way you put your comment is exactly why I don't post here anymore. Im not stating anything.In my post I asked Is this true? Meaning I don't know.Im asking questions. Don't be on the defense.Is this the way you talk to people who have questions about the church? I go to another forum and those people have never ever made me feel bad about what I post. I have questions. I don't know the answers thats why Im asking. Thank you to everyone else who tried to help me and change my mind about things.Your right paying your tithing is a commandment and where ever it goes is none of my business.(Thanks to my husband for helping out last night with that one) I know Im obeying and that should be all that I need to worry about. AND before Leah had so LOVINGLY told me about taxes for other colleges,that had come to my mind last night before going to bed and I felt better and it does help others.Just having a bad day I guess and things enter my mind that shouldn't.

Do you understand the meaning of "being on the defense"? Because your use of it here makes no sense at all.

The only person responsible for feelings is you. No one can "make" you feel one way out another.

You came on here and complained about where you think your tithing is going. You did not merely ask questions. When it is pointed out that some of your information is inaccurate.....admission requirements, how tithing is used...you get snarky and blame someone else for your feelings and actions.

Others have given you the same answers as I have. You can go directly to BYU to get admission criteria (again, what does this have to do with tithing?) Instead of relying on gossip and hearsay. But you'd rather play the victim, it seems.

The answers have been provided. It's your choice to believe the church is true or not. It's your choice to pay tithing or not. It's your choice to be jealous and resentful or not.

[Just_A_Guy]

I recently found out about a mall that the church purchased and its was 3 billion dollars.

There have been awesome answers here already, but I just wanted to address this nugget:

The cost estimates for the City Creek mall are all over the map. Our detractors place the cost as high as $5 billion. The Church has put the cost at $1.5 billion, and has implied that some of that cost includes the market value of the underlying ground and pre-existing structures--which the Church owned for decades before beginning the construction project. For a little perspective, consider: the tallest skyscrapers in the world, cost around $1 billion. The ocean liner Queen Mary 2--the largest ocean liner ever built when completed about ten yeas ago, and still more carefully and heavily built than some larger cruise ships built since that time--also cost about $1 billion.

Now, I've been to City Creek, a couple of times. It's a swanky mall--but I don't believe it's a $2 billion structure, even when you count the high-rise condos that were part of the project. Funds lost through mismanagement would be possible, I suppose--but if you've ever been involved in an LDS construction project, you'll know how stringently the Church's oversight is and the idea of City Creek's being a massive boondoggle becomes far less likely.

[pam]

Eowyn, It was more how am I gonna make ends meet rather than whats in it for me. I don't know why I believed paying my tithing would help me pay my bills. I heard testimony after testimony"I don't know how but my bills are always paid at the end of the month" or "A check I hadn't been expecting showed up in the mail" Im guessing it was the testimonies and stories I had heard others say.I don't think its doctrine is it? You know what helped us pay our bills? My kids growing up and I finally got a job because for whatever other reason I thought I was suppose to stay home and raise my kids. How did I get so messed up in my beliefs or what I thought they were. Maybe I better start with the discussions again and re learn this religon.I feel so stupid now. The church is the most correct but not perfect.The church does not guarantee happiness.Paying tithing does not mean your bills will be paid. My thought process all these years has been so messed up.Am I the only one ?

I think part of it is we hear so many stories of people who were blessed financially that we start to believe that is just the way it should be for everyone.

Sometimes paying tithing when you are unemployed and receiving unemployment benefits can mean the blessing of finding a new job. There are so many ways that we can be blessed.

Edited December 30, 2013 by pam

[pooter1]

Something that came to my mind last night was maybe the money they make off this mall will go to help the poor and the needy.Im not talking about just giving money to the poor but maybe it will be able to help build schools or even be able to create other jobs in other countries.I had never thought of that before. Thank you everyone for putting ideas in my head and making me think more on this. I have read the talks that you have sent and pondered on everything you have said to me. Its funny but by reading what you say to me I know your personalities and know your compassion to help others and I thank you so much. I want to believe.I have a desire to believe and a desire to keep the commandments.The world and satan gets in my way and I can wander so easily. Thank you once again.

[skippy740]

There's no "maybe" about it. From the link posted earlier: Why We Do Some of the Things We Do - Ensign Nov. 1999 - ensign

Are these businesses operated for profit? Of course they are. They operate in a competitive world. They pay taxes. They are important citizens of this community. And they produce a profit, and from that profit comes the money which is used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Foundation to help with charitable and worthwhile causes in this community and abroad and, more particularly, to assist in the great humanitarian efforts of the Church.

These businesses contribute one-tenth of their profit to the Foundation. The Foundation cannot give to itself or to other Church entities, but it can use its resources to assist other causes, which it does so generously. Millions of dollars have been so distributed. Thousands upon thousands have been fed. They have been supplied with medicine. They have been supplied with clothing and shelter in times of great emergency and terrible distress. How grateful I feel for the beneficence of this great Foundation which derives its resources from the business interests of the Church.

Why can't they contribute to the Church directly? Probably because they are already owned by the Church, and contributing back to the "parent company" only enhances its "profitability", so it needs another outlet for the entities to "tithe".

While not directly named 'the foundation', I'm pretty sure it's this: LDS Philanthropies

Notice the bottom:

LDS Philanthropies, a department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is responsible for philanthropic donations to Church institutions including:

Brigham Young University

BYU-Hawaii

BYU-Idaho

LDS Business College

CES: Elementary/Secondary Schools

Perpetual Education Fund

LDS Charities

FamilySearch

Missionary

Temple Patron and Construction Fund

Mormon Tabernacle Choir

Church History

I'm sure you've heard about the Perpetual Education Fund that helps with educational endeavors for others in other countries.

And LDS Charities (specifically): LDS Charities

Since 1985, LDS Charities (aka Humanitarian Services) of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has provided aid regardless of cultural or religious boundaries. Emergency assistance is provided through the Humanitarian Aid Fund, and long-term aid is provided through major initiatives such as wheelchairs, clean water, food initiative, vision care, neonatal resuscitation training, immunization, and a variety of local area initiatives.

[yjacket]

Eowyn, It was more how am I gonna make ends meet rather than whats in it for me. I don't know why I believed paying my tithing would help me pay my bills. I heard testimony after testimony"I don't know how but my bills are always paid at the end of the month" or "A check I hadn't been expecting showed up in the mail" Im guessing it was the testimonies and stories I had heard others say.I don't think its doctrine is it? You know what helped us pay our bills? My kids growing up and I finally got a job because for whatever other reason I thought I was suppose to stay home and raise my kids. How did I get so messed up in my beliefs or what I thought they were. Maybe I better start with the discussions again and re learn this religon.I feel so stupid now. The church is the most correct but not perfect.The church does not guarantee happiness.Paying tithing does not mean your bills will be paid. My thought process all these years has been so messed up.Am I the only one ?

No worries. I understand. This line of thought is basically called the "prosperity gospel" and IMO it has grown like wildfire into the thinking of individuals within the church. There is a whole wiki page to it, but withing the Church it is a take-off of the common phrase in the BoM that if we keep the commandments we will "prosper" in the land. I'm good therefore good things will happen to me.

Unfortunately, we forget the whole Job aspect of the scriptures. The gospel brings us eternal happiness and peace that no matter what happens on this earth, the trials, the struggles, the heartache, etc. It allows us to know that our Heavenly Father knows us, cares about us and that in the end it will all be okay-we will be able to live with our Father in love and peace.

The gospel helps us get through the trials- it doesn't necessarily make them go away. Sometimes we have experiences that can only be explained by the grace of God intervening and making things good; sometimes we have experiences where there is absolutely nothing and we fight and struggle and fight and struggle with very little obvious help from above.

It is not for us to question why it appeared that God intervened in one instance and not in another- it is only for us to be eternally thankful to our Heavenly Father for the instances where we feel His tender mercy in helping us and to be eternally thankful in those instances where we are to learn how to struggle on our own.

In the end, regardless of the outcome as we learn to rely upon the Atonement we will be able to draw closer to Him.

[pooter1]

Perfectly said Eowyn.I read it twice. That made sense to me.Thank you.

[Smeagums]

This is the law of tithing:

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

The posters who say that tithing is between you and the Lord are correct. I pay anonymously to Salt Lake and it is "one-tenth" of my "interest annually". I interpret "interest" to be my net income. What I have left over after paying for needful things i.e. rent, food, and gas. Others will tell you your net or gross income weekly, biweekly or monthly. The Lord said "annually". But again it is between you and the Lord. Read section 119. Ponder it and ask the Lord faithfully in prayer. You don't need a man, or woman, to decide what the correct answer is. The Lord will tell you Himself.

[skippy740]

From the Gospel Principles manual:

Gospel Principles Chapter 32: Tithes and Offerings

First Presidency has explained that “one-tenth of all their interest annually” refers to our income (see First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).

[pam]

Just to add to what Skippy said:

On March 19, 1970, the First Presidency sent the following letter to presidents of stakes and missions, bishops of wards, and presidents of branches in answer to the question, "What is a proper tithe?"

"For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly." ("I Have a Question," Ensign, Apr. 1974, 17)

[Smeagums]

While I respect the Church's ability to formulate opinions I often find myself following what I believe to be the standard given to us in the scriptures. Lesson manuals and the Ensign are not approved doctrinal sources. The only words that I know that have been approved by the Lord are the standard works and the teachings of Joseph Smith. This is the standard I think every Saint should consider following. But with everything this choice of mine is between the Lord and I. I know most people in the Church will disagree with me.

Before the Lord declared that we should be tithed 10% of our "interest annually" he also said that we should give our surplus property to the Church. Something that we as a Church have discontinued. Why did we discontinue the practice when the Lord told Joseph to implement it? Was it the will of the Lord? The will of man? Some things to think about.

[pam]

While I respect the Church's ability to formulate opinions I often find myself following what I believe to be the standard given to us in the scriptures. Lesson manuals and the Ensign are not approved doctrinal sources. The only words that I know that have been approved by the Lord are the standard works and the teachings of Joseph Smith. This is the standard I think every Saint should consider following. But with everything this choice of mine is between the Lord and I. I know most people in the Church will disagree with me.

Before the Lord declared that we should be tithed 10% of our "interest annually" he also said that we should give our surplus property to the Church. Something that we as a Church have discontinued. Why did we discontinue the practice when the Lord told Joseph to implement it? Was it the will of the Lord? The will of man? Some things to think about.

Believe what you will. I happen to believe that the majority of the things that we learn from later Prophets and leaders are inspired by the Lord to clarify or give further instruction. I also believe the words written in the Ensign are also inspired writings. But at the end of the day, the choice you make in how you figure out how much to pay towards tithing is a decision that can only be made between you and the Lord. That I will agree with.

Edited December 30, 2013 by pam