Kids and Smart Phones: What Am I Missing?

[The Folk Prophet]

I can trust them with knives and scissors. I know with relative surety that they won't take their knife and slit their dogs' heads with it. And I check that their dogs are still alive everyday. Same goes for their computers - in all of its forms.

To be fair, I would contend that the mere overuse of an electronic device (a known problem in today's world) is potentially harmful, despite what the device may be used for, and this is a much more subtle and devious form of detriment that a younger person is unlikely to register as problematic.

[The Folk Prophet]

Always interesting to see who gets defensive on these type of concerns.

Ever since I got a cellphone, I got more stupid. I don't memorize numbers like I used, I don't plan ahead like I used to and I am worse at directions. The phone rings, I have some strange impulse to answer it, regardless of what I am doing. I also got lazy and starting texting, rather than calling people.

I got a cellphone after highschool and depend on it far too much and thought of discarding it. I can't imagine the irrational dependency people who grew up with them have. I hear reports of anxious people at the MTC because its the first time in their lives, they haven't always had a cellphone. Imagine never being disconnected, ever. No wonder some people feel entitled and impatient when they are used to getting what they want, now.

I think the points that cellphones are essential are hilarious, given that for thousands of years, we survived without them. Sure, its convenient to have aps, internet, camera, music in one package, as well as a stalker parenting ap, but man, how sad is it when the cellphone towers stop working because of loss of power. Its amazing and sad.

My kids won't have cellphones until later teenage life, but most likely, she will want them to have them, so I will lose. There is freedom in independence.

I expect there were those with the same sorts of thought when electric light was first introduced.

[The Folk Prophet]

I remember back in my dating days how girls would always have to be checking their phones and texting their friends back while I was trying to have a conversation and get to know them.

Well that's just rude, technology aside.

[Dravin]

True enough. But most of us do not buy our children handguns to play with, even if we only mean them to go target-shooting out in the sticks. When the "toy" has the potential to do harm, we limit the child's exposure to the toy.

For the record I was just pointing out what I felt JAG was missing, not making an argument either way for children and smart phones.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Dravin

[classylady]

My ten year old grandson knows how to operate my smart phone much better than I can. Same with the computer. He does not have a cell phone. He's had his own computer since age 4. My 2 and 4 year old grand daughters use their parents old smart phones. The phones aren't connected, but they can still use them for games and photos. I'm not even sure how that works. They could probably get around on my smart phone better than me. I'm thinking that owning smart devices is part of the future. I see the positive aspects of it.

When I got my first "dumb" phone, it was less expensive for me to use pay as you go rather than a contract. I could spend a minimal amount of dollars and get 100 minutes. I could stretch those 100 minutes for three to five months. That's how little I used it. I mainly wanted it for emergency use in case I was stranded on the road. I had a midnight shift, and driving alone at night, the phone gave me a lot of peace of mind.

Now, I have a smart phone and I love it. Could I get along without it? Yes. But I don't want to. I love being able to connect to email, look up things on the net, check in on face book, etc. And, I love texting. I'm not a phone call person. I think I probably have a phobia about phone calls. But, I will text. I stay in touch with my children much better because of texting and face book. If I didn't have that I probably would only connect with my adult children about once every two to three months. That's how much I hate phone calls. With texting and face book, I pretty much have a daily update with my adult children. Love, love, love it.

Our house phone is almost obsolete. We very seldom use it to call out on. (My grandson who lives with us uses it the most). Almost anyone who knows us calls our cell phone numbers. All my children are adults and living on their own. None of them have land lines. They only have their cell phones. I'm thinking that's the future. Almost all my acquaintances who are in the 20 and 30 year age group do not have land lines. I can see that in order to stay in contact with younger children, who may be latch-key children, the children will most likely have a cell phone. Whether it's a dumb phone or a smart phone, I think more and more children will have cell phones. Most parents like to call or have their children call them when they get home from school. I would think as a safety measure, where there is no land line in the home, parents will buy their children a cell phone so they can make a phone call. Could children instead run over to the neighbors in case of an emergency? Yes. But, it's getting to be that many people don't even know their neighbors anymore.

Edited January 31, 2014 by classylady

[jerome1232]

Always interesting to see who gets defensive on these type of concerns.

Ever since I got a cellphone, I got more stupid. I don't memorize numbers like I used, I don't plan ahead like I used to and I am worse at directions. The phone rings, I have some strange impulse to answer it, regardless of what I am doing. I also got lazy and starting texting, rather than calling people.

It's called utilizing your tools for mundane tasks, Computer (phone) memorizes numbers for you, of course you memorize a few important ones in case your computer goes awol.

I think the points that cellphones are essential are hilarious, given that for thousands of years, we survived without them. Sure, its convenient to have aps, internet, camera, music in one package, as well as a stalker parenting ap, but man, how sad is it when the cellphone towers stop working because of loss of power. Its amazing and sad.

Humanity survived for thousands of years without spears, an alphabet, or a federal constitutional republic, shall we toss those to the wind as well? Things become essential as our technology and idea's progress. One man needs his spear, another his rifle, yet another his light-saber.

Edited January 31, 2014 by jerome1232

[The Folk Prophet]

... another his light-saber.

I need one of those.

[Guest]

To be fair, I would contend that the mere overuse of an electronic device (a known problem in today's world) is potentially harmful, despite what the device may be used for, and this is a much more subtle and devious form of detriment that a younger person is unlikely to register as problematic.

It is very harmful. I just posted on another thread (I can't remember which one now) how my 12-year-old lost his smartphone privileges... smartphone addiction is as real as video games addiction or TV addiction or any of those "we don't have an AA meeting for" addictions.

With great power comes great responsibility. And a parent who doesn't recognize that should not be giving their kids smartphones. Let me go beyond that... a parent who him/herself doesn't know when to put down the smartphone should not be giving one to their kids...

We were at Bonefish Grill yesterday and I kid you not... the family of 4 across from me were on their individual devices from the time they sat down to the time they left. Yes, they're talking casually to each other while their eyes are on their devices... putting it down long enough to put food in their mouths... I don't mean to judge - maybe they just spent the entire day on quality family time without their phones and just spent those 2 hours they were at the restaurant catching up with their phone things... but, if that was their family dinner after a day of work and school... hmm...

And we were driving around and around looking for parking on our way to the Middle School Tour when some kids passed by with their heads in their devices while walking through the parking lot with all the cars circling like sharks!

We got lots of smarphone and electronic device rules in the house. One of the rules is - all devices off (not silent but OFF) for meals and family time... including adult's phones.

Edited January 31, 2014 by anatess

[MorningStar]

My husband only has a cell phone provided by his work and it doesn't have Internet or anything. The rest of us don't have cell phones and my kids are becoming the only children who don't have them. It's annoying.

If they want to go to a friend's house after school, they can call me from the school. Otherwise I expect them to walk straight home. I just don't by the whole, "What if you need to get a hold of them?" excuse. I made it through my entire childhood without a phone.

[Guest]

My husband only has a cell phone provided by his work and it doesn't have Internet or anything. The rest of us don't have cell phones and my kids are becoming the only children who don't have them. It's annoying.

If they want to go to a friend's house after school, they can call me from the school. Otherwise I expect them to walk straight home. I just don't by the whole, "What if you need to get a hold of them?" excuse. I made it through my entire childhood without a phone.

And Queen Elizabeth I led England and Scotland while dumping her poop in the river Thames. Doesn't mean England has to do without indoor plumbing. I really don't get this kind of reasoning...

Edited January 31, 2014 by anatess

[LittleWyvern]

Any time there's new technology that becomes mainstream there's (in general) two paths families can take:

1. Deny its use outright
   
2. Allow its use but figure out how it can be used safely
   

In my opinion, if the new technology has the potential to be used for good, option 2 is the better (but more difficult) choice. Regardless, I think we're overly complicating the issue by thinking this phenomenon is unique to smartphones. This exact same question has been asked for pre-smartphone cellphones, the Internet, home computers, portable CD players, televisions, home telephones, radios, electricity, etc.

[Vort]

And Queen Elizabeth I led England and Scotland while dumping her poop in the river Thames. Doesn't mean England has to do without indoor plumbing. I really don't get this kind of reasoning...

The point is the cost/benefit analysis. How does having a smartphone benefit the child? Is it useful or even desirable for the child to be reachable by all his acquaintances 24/7? Does the safety factor of your child having a portable communications device outweigh the very great potential harm that could come to him/her through exposure to pornography and other evils? Do the answers to these questions change depending on whether your child is 6 or 16?

[Just_A_Guy]

I guess the underlying premise to my OP was that the other advances LW mentions didn't make porn and sexual predators so immediately proximate to children. (Or to the extent that some of them did, they had overwhelming benefits that outweighed the dangers).

I just have a hard time seeing how the advantages of a kid carrying a smart phone rather than a dumb phone, outweigh the risks--it strikes me my kids are far more likely to stumble onto porn or be groomed by a sicko via their phones' internet features, than they are likely to be tracked in the midst of a kidnapping by their phones' GPS.

Maybe I'm just not sufficiently tech-savvy. What specific apps/functionality, besides GPS, make smart phones in the hands of children worth the risk? What assures you that a 10- or 11-year-old can maturely manage those risks? What apps do you use to safeguard the children who use those phones?

[EarlJibbs]

There only a dying breed because we adults let it be. If we bought more of the simple phones they wouldn't be a dying breed.

But adults are using the smart phones and giving them to their children.

Could it be a keeping up with the Jones thing ?

How much money are people wasting buy changing out their phones? Well the phone companies are happy there making money.

How intelligent are we? The truth is the old land lines are better phones, better connection, better volume. The only thing the cell phone is good again is for safety like if u car brakes down that's why I have one. And of course having one with other devices on it does get u addicted. This is my opion only.

If theres a hurricane and u don't have the car charger for your phone your out of luck. No power but those old land lines would work unless the whole power gride was down I guess.

It may sound like it, but I am not being combatant.

I think you listed why the land lines are better, and they are few. The phone is so much more now and I am not sure its a bad thing if we use it correctly. I ALWAYS have my scriptures with me in my pocket, I ALWAYS have the ward directory with me in my pocket, I ALWAYS have a way to find a location through my GPS, I can scan official documents in, plan a shopping list that coincides with my wife's phone, know where my family is at in case they need me quick, important emails, talk to my family video chat from the palm of my hand...... on and on I can go about the good things it can do. We can say that we have the "old" ways of doing it and they worked just fine. Well we could also scrap email all together and use the post office again, waiting weeks for replies instead of using land lines. Or we could go back to the pony express. Each advancement is used for convenience. Nothing wrong with that. Often times convenience saves time. (or allows us new ways to waste it).

To the OP. My kids always tell how everyone uses ipads and smart phones in school, use the web in there classes for learning... but the kids with those phones fall into the latch key group of kids and have another use. I am constantly asked by my oldest when he will get a phone. I tell him when his mom and I get a divorce... which is never. Or until he can work to pay for his own and his bill which is a long way out yet. We have an old smart phone that works on Wi-Fi (voice over IP) only and is blocked from internet searches and downloads. The kids use that as the number to give their friends so they can talk. But that is it. If they made better tablets with better parental control, I wouldn't mind letting them use that for school.

[EarlJibbs]

What assures you that a 10- or 11-year-old can maturely manage those risks? What apps do you use to safeguard the children who use those phones?

No assurances beyond your teaching and trust with your children in my opinion. Anyone who thinks that just because you don't hand over a smart phone or tablet to your child they wont see easily accessible porn may want to think again. Their friends have them with them, in their homes.... I don't doubt that my 11 year old boy knows more about life than he lets on. He often tells us about you tube clips he has seen and I am shocked that he knows about them. But we talk openly and do not get upset when he comes to us or tells us something, because we want him to feel that although we don't approve, we aren't going to rip his head off.

I am not sure about apps, we have successfully barred an android phone from downloads and internet (internet by filling up the memory to the max, it will not load the search page, and download because of 2 step verification with google/google play- he cant even access that) which makes it a regular cell phone. Although he uses it to talk to family via Skype and is basically our home phone.

[LittleWyvern]

I guess the underlying premise to my OP was that the other advances LW mentions didn't make porn and sexual predators so immediately proximate to children. (Or to the extent that some of them did, they had overwhelming benefits that outweighed the dangers).

Well, certainly the arrival of smartphones has its own unique problems and threats (although the threats of smartphones are very similar to the Internet, laptops, and pay-per-view digital television). I didn't mean to say the anticipated dangers of each new technology is the same, but that we make the same sort of cost/benefit analysis each time. When it comes to something as rapidly changing as phone technology, a cost/benefit analysis you did just a few months ago may already be based on incorrect assumptions.

I just have a hard time seeing how the advantages of a kid carrying a smart phone rather than a dumb phone, outweigh the risks--it strikes me my kids are far more likely to stumble onto porn or be groomed by a sicko via their phones' internet features, than they are likely to be tracked in the midst of a kidnapping by their phones' GPS.

Maybe I'm just not sufficiently tech-savvy. What specific apps/functionality, besides GPS, make smart phones in the hands of children worth the risk? What assures you that a 10- or 11-year-old can maturely manage those risks? What apps do you use to safeguard the children who use those phones?

I think with smartphones in particular the "how does smartphone use for children outweigh the risks?" question is still in the process of being answered. Smartphones are still such a novel concept that one could argue that we still don't have a proper framework to even ask the right kinds of questions (for instance, can the question be solved by technology, or can we only depend on the maturity of the user?). There's a lot of technology and innovative software still being developed that are trying to either answer questions or provide frameworks, and so that question is going to have different answers for different age groups and different times.

Now, please don't take this to mean that I'm arguing for or against giving pre-teens cellphones. I personally think the technology is still too undeveloped for that. What I am arguing for is a more investigative and open approach to technology in general. With regards to technology, we can't just use the same answers we used 5-10 years ago and stop at that. The questions or the entire framework behind those answers has probably changed. I think we run the risk of missing out on the good that can come from technology when we do that. I think that, ideally, rules about technology should be made with the knowledge of the capabilities and unsolved questions about the technology in mind and with open conversation between parent and child.

Of course, I study computer science, so take my comments with as large a grain of salt as you find necessary.

[Backroads]

If they want to go to a friend's house after school, they can call me from the school. Otherwise I expect them to walk straight home. I just don't by the whole, "What if you need to get a hold of them?" excuse. I made it through my entire childhood without a phone.

And Queen Elizabeth I led England and Scotland while dumping her poop in the river Thames. Doesn't mean England has to do without indoor plumbing. I really don't get this kind of reasoning...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as if you're arguing that because we have the technology available, it must be a necessity.

MorningStar was simply saying that she survived childhood without a cellphone, just like Queen Elizabeth and the rest of the British Isles survived without indoor plumbing.

Sure, the technology is nice and all and once again I think many blessings have been brought about because of technology, but if need be, we could all probably learn to live without indoor plumbing and cell phones and survive.

[Guest]

The point is the cost/benefit analysis. How does having a smartphone benefit the child? Is it useful or even desirable for the child to be reachable by all his acquaintances 24/7? Does the safety factor of your child having a portable communications device outweigh the very great potential harm that could come to him/her through exposure to pornography and other evils? Do the answers to these questions change depending on whether your child is 6 or 16?

There are a gazillion things the smartphone benefits everybody - not just the child. The first and foremost is the GPS system. The 2nd is the synch - I can see and control what is in my kids' music player, text messages, photos, apps, etc. etc. There's the Clock with Alarm, the Weather, the Calendar - things that my kids and I use everyday to stay in synch with the family - a far cry from having to go home to see what's on the calendar and messages on the refrigerator... And there's their Class Webpage (each teacher has one that has their homework info, class news, etc.) and the Grade Portal. And there's the apps they use for school - like the Math Proficiency Apps... and there's the Public Library System that notifies them when their books are about to get past due or if their Library Book that they are waiting for has arrived... and there's LDS Tools that holds the Fast Offering Route for my 12 year old and his maps app to tell me where they all are so he can be more responsible and direct me to where I'm driving him to instead of me having to run the Fast Offering Route for him... and then, there's the games like Angry Birds for keeping them out of trouble in the school bus.

Exposure to pornography is a VERY small potential compared to the benefits. Especially if you have a kid that you are continuing to teach every single day and have a good communication relationship with.

Because, you can get pornography from ANYWHERE - not just a smartphone. The TV is a giant source of porn material - for example, a lot of people talk of Breaking Bad and how it is such a great show... Uhm... that show has pornographic material. Women walking around with nothing but small patches covering private parts making sexual overtures. And that's on REGULAR cable. Not pay channels.

So unless you plan on sanitizing everything your kid is exposed to - your kid will see that stuff unless your kid knows to avoid that kind of stuff without you having to tell them and you have the conviction to remain vigilant. Because - their friends are talking about Breaking Bad and all the other crap that's out there.

So, 6 or 16... that's your call. If you think your 6 year old knows how to go to Safari and watch porn then you might wanna keep that phone away from him...

[Vort]

My kids watch little TV, and what they do watch is pretty strictly regulated. (Admittedly, they watch Adventure Time, but we all have our weaknesses.) And they spend three hours per day, maximum, in public schools (and that's only the older ones). So the idea that "this crap is all around them all day long anyway" is bogus, at least for my family. I don't intend to allow my children casual exposure to pornography just because porn is available in other media.

As for the GPS: That is reason enough to prohibit smartphones. It is stupidizing an entire generation. Seriously. I have friends my own age who have become so pathetically dependant on GPS that they can't find an address without it. They practically can't drive to a store without it. And those are people my own age. I have interacted with many young people who have almost no sense of direction at all because of GPS. It's like the stupidization caused by electronic calculators a generation or two ago, where now you have kids pulling out their calculators to multiply something by eleven. (Seriously.)

[Guest]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as if you're arguing that because we have the technology available, it must be a necessity.

MorningStar was simply saying that she survived childhood without a cellphone, just like Queen Elizabeth and the rest of the British Isles survived without indoor plumbing.

Sure, the technology is nice and all and once again I think many blessings have been brought about because of technology, but if need be, we could all probably learn to live without indoor plumbing and cell phones and survive.

No. I'm not arguing. I'm saying I don't understand the reasoning that because I grew up without using phones that my kid has no need for one. Sure, my kids can live without indoor plumbing and cellphones - they lived a few months in the Philippines. I just don't think I need to keep them on latrines because that's how I grew up...

My dad used to tell me... my mother took tube socks and cut them in half and sewed the ends so I can have 2 pairs of socks instead of 1... and you're asking me to buy you new socks? And I used to tell him - well, if you want me to take tube socks and cut it in half, I will. It doesn't change the fact that I need new socks but I'll take new tube socks...

Edited February 3, 2014 by anatess

[Vort]

I'm saying I don't understand the reasoning that because I grew up without using phones that my kid has no need for one.

You are incapable of differentiating between a need and a convenience?

Sure, my kids can live without indoor plumbing and cellphones - they lived a few months in the Philippines. I just don't think I need to keep them on latrines because that's how I grew up...

You can't distinguish between questions of sanitation and of convenience?

[Vort]

I'm saying I don't understand the reasoning that because I grew up without using phones that my kid has no need for one.

You are incapable of differentiating between a need and a convenience?

Sure, my kids can live without indoor plumbing and cellphones - they lived a few months in the Philippines. I just don't think I need to keep them on latrines because that's how I grew up...

One is a question of sanitation, the other of convenience.

[Guest]

My kids watch little TV, and what they do watch is pretty strictly regulated. (Admittedly, they watch Adventure Time, but we all have our weaknesses.) And they spend three hours per day, maximum, in public schools (and that's only the older ones). So the idea that "this crap is all around them all day long anyway" is bogus, at least for my family. I don't intend to allow my children casual exposure to pornography just because porn is available in other media.

You misunderstand me. My kids don't get casual exposure to pornography - their friends well may be. They go to their friends' houses and if they didn't have their own stuff, their friends will let them borrow theirs... I don't plan to tether myself to my kids 100% of the time at 10 and 12 years old... so we work on skillsets for them to avoid that stuff on their own without me having to put them in bubble wrap.

Do you know that Game of Thrones is on the trans-Altanatic flight show lists? Yes, anybody can go watch Game of Thrones on that 12-hour flight to the Philippines. Unedited. Even your 3-year old can watch it if he knows enough to push the buttons... So, unless you can trust your kid to avoid that show, you are on a sleepless flight.

As for the GPS: That is reason enough to prohibit smartphones. It is stupidizing an entire generation. Seriously. I have friends my own age who have become so pathetically dependant on GPS that they can't find an address without it. They practically can't drive to a store without it. And those are people my own age. I have interacted with many young people who have almost no sense of direction at all because of GPS. It's like the stupidization caused by electronic calculators a generation or two ago, where now you have kids pulling out their calculators to multiply something by eleven. (Seriously.)

That is silly. The GPS is FOR ME. So I know where my kid is. But even then, GPS will make you stupid if you let it make you stupid. Just like a calculator. Telling my kid not to use a calculator because it makes him stupid is silly. I teach my kids how to add and subtract and multiply by 11 without a calculator but if they have to answer complex algebra, they can go use their calculators to add and subtract the numbers - because adding and subtracting is time consuming tedium relative to what they're supposed to be learning in the limited amount of time they need to finish their homework.

It's not technology that makes people stupid. Misuse of it does. C'mon - you're in technology! You must understand that concept!

Edited February 3, 2014 by anatess

[Guest]

By the way...

Our missionaries are carrying iPad minis now in addition to their cellphones. Very cool.

[Guest]

By the way, just to be clear to everybody... I'm not saying keeping kids out of smartphones is bad. All I'm saying is... I don't feel the need to keep my kids away from smartphones.

You decide that for your own kids... just like keeping kids under 13 away from all PG-13 movies...