Marrying a member of the LDS

[InlandPirate]

Hi! First question - Is Mormon a socially acceptable term for a member of the Church? I've heard both sides on this, and I don't want to start out by offending someone!

Despite a very Catholic grandmother, I am currently a strong atheist. This was absolutely fine for me, until I started talking to quite possibly 'the girl of my dreams' online. I found out she was a member of the LDS - something I have nothing against - and we agreed not to talk about religion after that, to avoid causing an argument we didn't want to have.

Fast forward 9 months, and we're pretty much certain we'll be together in the near future (I'm 17, she's 16). I've begun to look in to the Church, to learn about who she is, more than anything, but also because she told me it's every young LDS girl's dream to be married in the Temple!

I was wondering if there is anything I/we/she would have to do to get this to happen, I'm almost entirely certain that this is what we want! If there's anything else I need to consider, please tell me! At the moment I'm completely overwhelmed with information, and it's the exam preparation season, so I can't afford to waste time plodding through the rubbish that many sites seem to put out about the Church!

I'm supposed to be being contacted by a local missionary sometime soon, so if there's anything I should be asking of them please let me know!

Thanks for your time, sorry for my naivety, and please don't forget the first question!

Tom

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Inland and welcome!

Yes, "Mormon" is fine. The full title is "Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", but saying that over and over again gets old fast. :)

I am currently a strong atheist.

...

'the girl of my dreams'

...

she told me it's every young LDS girl's dream to be married in the Temple!

...

I was wondering if there is anything I/we/she would have to do to get this to happen

No problem. Here's everything you need to do, to get married in the temple:

* Gain a testimony of the reality and divinity of God and Christ (in other words, convert from athiesm, believe in God, and accept Christ as what He claims to be, and accept Him as your savior).

* Repent of your sins and be baptized into the church.

* Be a member in good standing for around a year, which includes paying tithing, living the Word of Wisdom (no drinking/smoking/drugs), and keeping other covenants you make during baptism.

* After a year or so, obtain a temple recommend (which includes basically reaffirming your baptismal covenants, and expressing a desire to make additional covenants.)

* Get sealed to your girlfriend, assuming she has her temple recommend (and accepts your proposal :))

I'm supposed to be being contacted by a local missionary sometime soon, so if there's anything I should be asking of them please let me know!

The missionaries will help you with the first two items, the last three are on you.

Best of luck! Stop by and let us know how things go.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[estradling75]

Hi! First question - Is Mormon a socially acceptable term for a member of the Church? I've heard both sides on this, and I don't want to start out by offending someone!

I have not really met any member (including myself) that considers being called a Mormon to be offensive... I suppose it is possible you might find one

Fast forward 9 months, and we're pretty much certain we'll be together in the near future (I'm 17, she's 16). I've begun to look in to the Church, to learn about who she is, more than anything, but also because she told me it's every young LDS girl's dream to be married in the Temple!

I was wondering if there is anything I/we/she would have to do to get this to happen, I'm almost entirely certain that this is what we want! If there's anything else I need to consider, please tell me! At the moment I'm completely overwhelmed with information, and it's the exam preparation season, so I can't afford to waste time plodding through the rubbish that many sites seem to put out about the Church!

I'm supposed to be being contacted by a local missionary sometime soon, so if there's anything I should be asking of them please let me know!

Thanks for your time, sorry for my naivety, and please don't forget the first question!

Tom

Only faithful members in good standing are allowed to go through the temple. So to be married in the Temple (We call it being Sealed) you would need to be a convert to the LDS (Also a name we use standing for ) Church for a year.

The missionaries are all about helping you convert... Which would include Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost, a testimony of the Book of Mormon as a book of Scripture, and of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.

[InlandPirate]

Yes, "Mormon" is fine. The full title is "Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", but saying that over and over again gets old fast. :)

Glad that one's cleared up!

* Gain a testimony of the reality and divinity of God and Christ (in other words, convert from athiesm, believe in God, and accept Christ as what He claims to be, and accept Him as your savior).

How 'loose' is the Church in terms of creation and evolution? I've always asked why, so I ended up down the science path in school, and I think I'd struggle to go against what I've thought for the last 10 years! That's not to say I won't come at it with an open mind though!

* Repent of your sins and be baptized into the church.

* Be a member in good standing for around a year, which includes paying tithing, living the Word of Wisdom (no drinking/smoking/drugs), and keeping other covenants you make during baptism.

Shouldn't have any problems with that really! I'm a good kid! Is there somewhere I can find out more about these Convenants? I want to be able to know exactly what I'm signing up to! Forgive me if I appear suspicious or skeptical!

I guess one could describe the Tithe as a form of tax levied by a Church, what does it mean exactly in practice?

I hope she accepts! She doesn't know I'm doing any of this yet, I want to be able to surprise her with my newfound knowledge, to properly show I care about her!

Thanks!

Tom

[Swiper]

Whatever you do, do not convert just to please her. Only join the church if you truly have a testimony about the truthfulness of the gospel.

[estradling75]

Glad that one's cleared up!

How 'loose' is the Church in terms of creation and evolution? I've always asked why, so I ended up down the science path in school, and I think I'd struggle to go against what I've thought for the last 10 years! That's not to say I won't come at it with an open mind though!

There are members who are creationist and members who think God used evolution. As long as God is Root cause of creation how he got there is less important

Shouldn't have any problems with that really! I'm a good kid! Is there somewhere I can find out more about these Convenants? I want to be able to know exactly what I'm signing up to! Forgive me if I appear suspicious or skeptical!

I guess one could describe the Tithe as a form of tax levied by a Church, what does it mean exactly in practice?

The big three are Law of Chasity (No sexual relations until you are married then only with your spouse)

The Word of Wisdom (No Alcohol , tobacco, Coffee, Tea, or harmful drugs)

Tithing (10% of your increase/income)

Then of course the church is made of a lay ministry so all the members are expected to serve in some form

[NeuroTypical]

How 'loose' is the Church in terms of creation and evolution? I've always asked why, so I ended up down the science path in school, and I think I'd struggle to go against what I've thought for the last 10 years! That's not to say I won't come at it with an open mind though!

Various individuals in the church (in and out of leadership positions) have had strong opinions one way or the other. But your basic answer, is that the church doesn't demand you believe one way or the other. You can find mormons who believe the earth is 5000 years old, and you can find mormons who accept most scientific consensus. Probably a lot of us are "intelligent design" type folks, which as far as I can tell, amounts to "God nudges evolution along the path He wants".

Is there somewhere I can find out more about these Convenants? I want to be able to know exactly what I'm signing up to! Forgive me if I appear suspicious or skeptical!

I find this a very healthy approach to anything that demands so much. Not everybody selling salvation and God, is someone you should devote yourself to, just to win the hand of a girl.

We teach a class named "Gospel Principles" to people interested in our church, and new converts. I'd recommend reading the lesson manual - it's a great high-level overview of what we believe and why.

Gospel Principles

It discusses tithing and baptismal covenants.

After you get the basics, I'd also suggest you get a good biography of Joseph Smith, the guy who started our church in the 1800's (we say he 'restored the gospel'). There is much said about him and his story by our critics. The truth claims of our church rest on some very, very interesting claims about things that happened. So, after you spend a few months with missionaries, and working your way through Gospel Principles, maybe attending church, I'd recommend a book like Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, or Joseph Smith: The First Mormon by Donna Hill.

There are many, many, many horrible books created by critics who cherry-pick sources, outright ignore facts, and do no end of dirty tricks to misrepresent or paint this faith with an uncharitable brush. Rough Stone Rolling seems to be widely hailed by both critic and faithful.

[Lakumi]

Whatever you do, do not convert just to please her. Only join the church if you truly have a testimony about the truthfulness of the gospel.

how do you know you have a testamony?

[InlandPirate]

Sorry Swiper, that came across wrong, let me have another shot:

Initially, I saw it as the way in and to make her happy. Now I'm thinking it does actually make some sense to me, and even if I'm not totally at one with the religious side yet, I think the community has nice spirit in the majority, which is certainly quite attractive in itself!

Does that sound like a better point to be starting from?

Loudmouth, I had a unit on the formation of the Church up until the Salt Lake emigration on my GCSE history exam, though I'm led to believe this was a rather biased and twisted affair :/

[Quin]

Science and religion answer two completely different questions: How & Why?

Science answers how something works (even when we ask why, we're actually describing how. Like "Why do we bleed?" And then we start describing how the circulatory system works, and platelets, and the immune system. Science answers how.)

Religion answers why.

It's when religion starts anwering how (Apollo drawing his great chariot across the sky, or when witches were burned at the stake for "causing" plague), and science starts answering why (not repeatable! No process! Aargh!) that we end up with pure craziness.

So...For myself, and my very scientific family (doctors, and engineers, and researchers oh my) our science and religion never conflict. As they answer those 2 totally different questions.

Q

[FunkyTown]

How 'loose' is the Church in terms of creation and evolution? I've always asked why, so I ended up down the science path in school, and I think I'd struggle to go against what I've thought for the last 10 years! That's not to say I won't come at it with an open mind though!

Hey Tom - There's nothing taught in church one way or the other about evolution. I don't have a dog in that fight, but...

I think the problem with the debate is that people are conflating this as Science vs Religion. The Scientific Method is just a set of rules of observation that lead to understanding natural rules.

Evolution is interesting because it was a genius theory came to by a very intelligent man. There are a few very important questions that have to be answered about it. The Scientific Method, in order to prove Evolution, has to be able to experimentally prove it in a controlled and repeatable setting.

In such a setting, they need to show:

1) Have they ever seen an organic molecule spontaneously develop life?

They have not.(I know, I know. 'Abiogenesis is not evolution.' It's an important first step to allow evolution, though)

2) Have they ever seen a cell that was not predisposed to working together to suddenly start working together?

They have not.

3) Have they ever seen a cell that was not predisposed to doing so suddenly specialize in to an organ or pseudo-organ?

They have not.

D) Have they ever seen evolution on a macro-level?

They have not.

The answer to these questions is, 'Of course not, FunkyTown. Don't be absurd. Evolution takes millions(And sometimes billions) of years. To recreate what may have taken the entire universe billions of years of random events to create within the confines of our current limitations is not currently possible.'

And that's a fair point. The problem with that is that you have a theory that is not only untested, but untestable. It's the exact sort of theory that atheists decry religion for having -because- it's untested and untestable. Having that be a cornerstone of modern scientific thought is, it seems to me, something that lessens scientific inquiry.

Evolution has become such a sacred cow among the anti-religion crowd because it doesn't require God to exist that it isn't being questioned on any real level. And can't be because it's become dogmatic truth.

Dogma is the enemy of the inquiring mind, and science requires an inquiring mind to be anything of use.

You seem like someone who does question things. Let that happen. It's a good thing. :)

[Swiper]

Sorry Swiper, that came across wrong, let me have another shot:

Initially, I saw it as the way in and to make her happy. Now I'm thinking it does actually make some sense to me, and even if I'm not totally at one with the religious side yet, I think the community has nice spirit in the majority, which is certainly quite attractive in itself!

Does that sound like a better point to be starting from?

I see a lot of me in you. I grew up atheist/agnostic (my parents hated religion with a passion), but I later married into a Mormon family. I got a lot of pressure from my in-laws about joining the church and I wanted to please my spouse so badly. I also found the spirit of the Mormon community quite attractive and in the end I pretty much looked for any kind of sign (real or perceived) as an excuse to join the church.

I enjoyed my church participation for several years despite my inner doubts, but after a decade it became more and more difficult to suppress it. The last five years there developed a direct and clear conflict between the values of the church and what I personally perceived to be right and wrong. It came to a boiling point last year and I officially resigned my membership and left the church.

While my wife accepted my decision with grace and understanding, it was still very hard on her as her vision of our eternal future collapsed in front of her eyes. I feel bad about hurting her feelings but I had to do it. I just couldn't remain a member and look myself in the mirror anymore. In retrospective, it would have been better if I had never succumbed to pressure and joined the church in the first place. She married me as a non-member and by joining the church I gave her false hopes and in the end a check that she couldn't cash in due to insufficient funds.

The bottom line: Stay authentic no matter what.

[Lakumi]

Science and religion answer two completely different questions: How & Why?

Science answers how something works (even when we ask why, we're actually describing how. Like "Why do we bleed?" And then we start describing how the circulatory system works, and platelets, and the immune system. Science answers how.)

Religion answers why.

It's when religion starts anwering how (Apollo drawing his great chariot across the sky, or when witches were burned at the stake for "causing" plague), and science starts answering why (not repeatable! No process! Aargh!) that we end up with pure craziness.

So...For myself, and my very scientific family (doctors, and engineers, and researchers oh my) our science and religion never conflict. As they answer those 2 totally different questions.

Q

though religion doesn't answer some questions with, well any sort of "proof" as some might say (most popular, how did life begin on Earth).

I don't believe God was here and made us and looks like us, all that seems very, I donno weird. Like we want to make ourselves feel higher and better, so we give our God our own faces.

I think it would be so much beyond that, that in the first seconds of life, the limitless divine was there to give that spark, and we are within that thing-still. It is here all around us.

That's the short of it, the two for me always clash, always...

[InlandPirate]

I see a lot of me in you. I grew up atheist/agnostic (my parents hated religion with a passion), but I later married into a Mormon family. I got a lot of pressure from my in-laws about joining the church and I wanted to please my spouse so badly. I also found the spirit of the Mormon community quite attractive and in the end I pretty much looked for any kind of sign (real or perceived) as an excuse to join the church.

I enjoyed my church participation for several years despite my inner doubts, but after a decade it became more and more difficult to suppress it. The last five years there developed a direct and clear conflict between the values of the church and what I personally perceived to be right and wrong. It came to a boiling point last year and I officially resigned my membership and left the church.

While my wife accepted my decision with grace and understanding, it was still very hard on her as her vision of our eternal future collapsed in front of her eyes. I feel bad about hurting her feelings but I had to do it. I just couldn't remain a member and look myself in the mirror anymore. In retrospective, it would have been better if I had never succumbed to pressure and joined the church in the first place. She married me as a non-member and by joining the church I gave her false hopes and in the end a check that she couldn't cash in due to insufficient funds.

The bottom line: Stay authentic no matter what.

I'll bear that in mind, thank you. :)

Quin, and Lakumi, I agree with you both - sometimes the clash can lead to good things though! Without veering too wildly off the subject, did anyone see the Bill Nye and Ken Ham debate? I think both sides made some excellent points, which I think is partly why I'm here now too.

[Quin]

I didn't see the debate... But it WAS one of those mind blowing things about going to college.

The higher up I got in my science courses, the more I found profound religious/spiritual reverence in my instructors.

While there will always be scientists who believe only in that is known, can be proved, and is concrete... Leaving highschool, I ran into few and fewer of those people. The wide eyed wonder, the bone deep awe of that which we cannot know or test for becomes more and more prevalent.

As I said, I grew up in a science family. One of my uncles is an astrophysicist, dinner parties with his friends are an absolute riot (and also where I learned that counting on your fingers is okay). But while he and his contemporaries (from an even wilder spectrum of religions: Hindu, Buddhist, Islam, NA) should have taught me otherwise, I always just sort of discounted them (and others) as family friends. Since, at SCHOOL (highschool), religion & science were anathema. For me, it really took my professors' childlike excitement of the universes we have spinning in our blood streams, and barely universally held deep belief in God (or Gods, as the case may vary) for me to really take a step back, and go... Wait a sec? And then to seriously look at my own family, at all of the professionals I know, and realize that science and religion at loggerheads is a false dichotomy.

God who split the day and night is an oft repeated verse in the Qur'an.

Scientifically we could look at that (taking over the why) and say He didn't. We have day and night because of the spin & rotation of the earth around the sun.

Nope.

That's HOW we have day and night.

WHY do we?(( Because, also scientifically, not all planets have a day and night. Some are in stationary orbits, or in day/night cycles that are so incrediably long (years, decades, centuries) as makes never no mind. If we could mathematically back track to determine the trajectory and velocity of every atom that spun out into our solar system, every comet and meteor, and particle flung into it, from the beginning of time,,, we'd still have the HOW it came to happen. Not the why.)

So the WHY we have day and night is a spiritual question.

How is hard (and basic) science.

Why is unknowable.

We can yank it back into science and keep trying for the why and say that without the day/night cycle life on this planet would look extremely different (if it existed at all). So WE are here, because of the day night cycle (& a million other things all being exactly right).

True.

If it hadn't happened exactly the way it happened, it wouldn't have happened. Check.

Still doesn't answer the why.

Why did it happen like that?

Totally different question than how did it happen, or what variables were in play? Or how it could be different.

Neither the how or why negate each other.

They don't compete.

Unless we make them compete.

Which, IMHO, is simple insecurity.

It's like when my kids throw in a totally nonsequitar argument. Just to argue. (it's time to go. But Jack ate all the strawberry jam. Blink. Blink. How does that relate to leaving? It doesn't. But you should know. He ate it. Ohhhhhhh-kaaaaaay. Check. The jam thief and the journalist both need to be in the car. Scoot.)

I kinda love it when one of my e=MC2 friends starts quizzing me on my faith vs science.

Dude. There is no versus. We're not postprocessionalists, here. I dont need a story to explain the how. And measurements never explain the why. We're good. 2 discrete units can exist happily in my brain. Just like I don't dive off buildings in my swimsuit, just because I can dive off cliffs into water (and they're both made of stone with a really long drop). Just like I'm an underling at one job (lowly peon), and Boss Lady at the other. I don't have to have one set of rules for every occasion. I'm human. I adapt. God gave me this brain to use.

<grin>

They hate that last bit.

Q

One of my faaaaaavorite things, if you haven't checked it out yet, is Symphony of Science. Which pulls from some of our best scientific minds, ever. Totally shiver inducing.

- If you want to make an apple pie from scratch.... You must first.... Invent the universe.

- The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together.

- We are a way for the cosmos to know itself

Carl Sagan

We are all connected:

To each other, biologically

The the Earth, chemically

To the rest of the universe, atomically

DeGrasse Tyson

[Lakumi]

I have a whole slew of questions about things neither side can answer

(and "God works in mysterious ways" or anything along those lines isn't an answer)

As I said before, if there is a God, i don't believe it watches me or cares about me, I don't believe I'll go anywhere other then where my ashes are tossed when I die.

Religion is going to have a lot of weird questions if we run into a race more evolved then us

[lagarthaaz]

- We are a way for the cosmos to know itself

Carl Sagan

We are all connected:

To each other, biologically

The the Earth, chemically

To the rest of the universe, atomically

DeGrasse Tyson

Love these quotes - thank you.

[mnn727]

How 'loose' is the Church in terms of creation and evolution? I've always asked why, so I ended up down the science path in school, and I think I'd struggle to go against what I've thought for the last 10 years! That's not to say I won't come at it with an open mind though!

Very loose. We have many scientists as members and even teach evolution at BYU.

There is nothing that says God could not have used evolution to bring about his goals. About the only place you will get argument on that is that most LDS will say mankind is not an evolved ape - that there is a difference between ape and human.

We also believe that the "days" of creation were periods of time perhaps millions/billions of years long, rather than 24 hour days.

[mnn727]

I don't believe God was here and made us and looks like us, all that seems very, I donno weird.

Just to clarify that is the opposite of LDS beliefs.

[mnn727]

Religion is going to have a lot of weird questions if we run into a race more evolved then us

Most religions will, I don't believe the LDS will have much of a problem as we are told in scripture that there are countless worlds.

[Lakumi]

Just to clarify that is the opposite of LDS beliefs.

and you see my problem then, and why it doesn't say Mormon up there

What do you do when you'd actually like to be part of a religion but you have different beliefs on some of their teachings?

[InlandPirate]

and you see my problem then, and why it doesn't say Mormon up there

What do you do when you'd actually like to be part of a religion but you have different beliefs on some of their teachings?

That's what I'm trying to work out!

[Lakumi]

That's what I'm trying to work out!

well hope you-and I-find some answer we can live with

[mnn727]

and you see my problem then, and why it doesn't say Mormon up there

What do you do when you'd actually like to be part of a religion but you have different beliefs on some of their teachings?

Is it something major or something minor, can you live with it?

There were a number of things I wasn't sure of when I joined, after 20 years there are still a couple things I disagree with, they are not major doctrinal issues though.

I usually will ignore it or even get up and walk out of a class if they start discussing the 2 items I am thinking about.

Edited February 7, 2014 by mnn727

[Lakumi]

Is it something major or something minor, can you live with it?

There were a number of things I wasn't sure of when I joined, after 20 years there are still a couple things I disagree with, they are not major doctrinal issues though.

I usually will ignore it or even get up and walk out of a class if they start discussing the 2 items I am thinking about.

Some are major (such as my belief in what I think God is, the idea of heaven) some are minor (I am so not a morning person so church is something dreaded on that point alone), some are my own oddities (such as anything I am the center of I seem to have an obsession of making it a reflection of myself, putting myself wholly into it rather then doing what everyone else does)