Illegal Immigration

[Traveler]

A thought - Let's pass a law that states that it is a felony to be in the USA illegally. This would make all illegal immigrants felons under the law and end the argument as to their legal status.

It is already a felony to assist anyone in breaking the law – therefore anyone that assist an illegal immigrant in staying in the USA can also be tried under the law. For examples, doctors or hospitals offering care to illegal immigrants can be tried. Lawyers suing in behalf can be tried. Land lords renting places to stay to illegal immigrants can be tried. Employers offering jobs to illegal immigrants can be tried.

I like this idea because it puts the burden on those that are creating the problem. It puts those that contribute to the problem at greatest risk and responsibility to be prosecuted under the law.

Remember too that we can allow anyone needed or that we want in the country to come in with legal status. We can and should define what is legal and expect both those coming to our country and those living in our country to be subject to the law.

The Traveler

[FrankJL]

It hopeless..

Quit thinking we are even going to try to do something about illegal immigration. Our elected officials, in both parties, could care less. Or at best give it lip service, and do nothing about it.

Bush's amnesty program, shows just how hopeless the situation is. He's trying to hard to be loved by the likes of Ted Kennedy, and La Raza, and giving the bird to those that worked to get him in that office. Glad he can't run again. I wouldn't vote for him again, after this garbage he's pushing now.

[JcDean78]

Simply put, Bush should be impeached if he signs this bill.

Here is how I would fix the issue.

My fix 1. Deport all illegals.

2. Allow employeers to check legal status of workers before hirring (illegal to do now)

3. Prosecute those who hire illegals.

4. Prosecute those who house illegals.

5. Deny all governemt services to illegals (School, medical, food, etc...)

6. Deny children born in the US by illegals to be citizens. (New years day baby was an illegal.)

7. All legals MUST learn English

After all of the above is enacted and enforced then...

1. Look at a guest worker program that allows people to come and work from all over the globe.

2. Look at our current immigration limits and look for improvments.

3. All possible immigrants/guest workers must learn and pass a test on English, US History, and our founding prinipals. They must agree to become a part of our melting pot if they plan to stay.

4. All possible immigrants must be able to offer some skills that they can provide to our society.

5. Enact a nation ID card system. Those of us who wish to drive get it upgraded to a drivers license at the DMV. Perhaps it could also work as a passport.

6. Require ID card to vote.

Using the above we would not need the fence and would not have to pay in most cases as they would deport themselves. If anything it would increase revenue from people prosecuted for hiring or housing illigals. It woud=ld also solve the problem over night.

[Dr T]

What would you do with the felons, put them in prison?

[FrankJL]

1. Deport all illegals.

I really wish conservatives would stop with ideas that start like this and try something that might actually work instead of dreaming up pipe dreams like this. Do you have any idea the logistics that would be involved in a task like this? I have yet to see anyone show a concrete plan of how we could realistically export an estimated 8-20 million people (depending on what estimates you want to believe) from this country.

6. Deny children born in the US by illegals to be citizens.

This would require amending the constitution, or at least modifying the wording of the 14th amendment, both would be very difficult to do. The supreme court ruled in Plyler v Doe that the legal status of an immigrant has no bearing on the wording of this amendment, and has held that as precedent in several other cases.

3. All possible immigrants/guest workers must learn and pass a test on English, US History, and our founding prinipals. They must agree to become a part of our melting pot if they plan to stay.

perhaps we could start this with citizens already legal....

4. All possible immigrants must be able to offer some skills that they can provide to our society.

This is already taken care of with the H-1B visas.

[pam]

A thought - Let's pass a law that states that it is a felony to be in the USA illegally. This would make all illegal immigrants felons under the law and end the argument as to their legal status.

It is already a felony to assist anyone in breaking the law – therefore anyone that assist an illegal immigrant in staying in the USA can also be tried under the law. For examples, doctors or hospitals offering care to illegal immigrants can be tried. Lawyers suing in behalf can be tried. Land lords renting places to stay to illegal immigrants can be tried. Employers offering jobs to illegal immigrants can be tried.

I like this idea because it puts the burden on those that are creating the problem. It puts those that contribute to the problem at greatest risk and responsibility to be prosecuted under the law.

Remember too that we can allow anyone needed or that we want in the country to come in with legal status. We can and should define what is legal and expect both those coming to our country and those living in our country to be subject to the law.

The Traveler

So in making it a felony to be in the US illegally...would we then be putting them into prison? Seems to me all we are doing is changing the venue of where our tax money is going. Either we are paying taxes to feed, house, etc. while they are free or we are going to still pay taxes to feed, house etc while they sit in a federal prison. Making it a felony doesn't appear to me a solution at all.

[JcDean78]

1. Deport all illegals.

I really wish conservatives would stop with ideas that start like this and try something that might actually work instead of dreaming up pipe dreams like this. Do you have any idea the logistics that would be involved in a task like this? I have yet to see anyone show a concrete plan of how we could realistically export an estimated 8-20 million people (depending on what estimates you want to believe) from this country.

Well as I said, with the other items enacted, it would take care of itself. If you take away their free ride, their housing, and their jobs... then they are going to get the heck out of here and fast. We won't have to provide the ride for most of them. I really wish you would have read what I said before making an accusation that I am just "dreaming up pipe dreams".

My plan would work and end the problem virtually overnight.

[Dr T]

That's what I was getting at with my question Pammy.

[pam]

That's what I was getting at with my question Pammy.

I kind of thought so Dr. T

[tiancum]

Tough part is, it is impossible to fix this (as far as it's gone) without turning our society into a police state.

[FrankJL]

Post didn't work right...ignore this.

using bold for your quotes...the quotes thing isn't working right for me.

Well as I said, with the other items enacted, it would take care of itself. If you take away their free ride, their housing, and their jobs... then they are going to get the heck out of here and fast

No they won't. Even without access to our social safety nets (or should I say hammocks), they can still make much more here then they can in Mexico, in low skilled manual labor jobs.

Not that it matters anyways. Liberals in congress see the illegals as a way of expanding the welfare state, and the Republicans in congress are too weak in the knees to even care. Neither party cares about what happens to the country, as long as they can try and vie for a few hispanic votes, by being soft on immigration. Even our supposed conservative President is bending over to appease the illegals.

I really wish you would have read what I said before making an accusation that I am just "dreaming up pipe dreams".

I did read your post. All of it is either wishful thinking, or in some cases doesn't need to be made into law, because it already is law. Its just we don't enforce the laws we have on the books, so making new laws will solve nothing. Since you insist I read your post lets go line by line here, and point out the flaws.

1. Deport all illegals.

Already answered this, not logistically feasible. They won't leave themselves, regardless of legislation passed, they broke the law coming, what makes you think they will respect any of our other laws.

2. Allow employeers to check legal status of workers before hirring (illegal to do now)

This isn't illegal now, its just not enforced. Supposing it was inforced though, there is a whole black market dedicated to creating false SSNs and other credentials for illegals. Also most employers know they are hiring illegals in the first place, and in some cases even help them get bogus documents.

3. Prosecute those who hire illegals.

Too difficult to do, esp with illegals using fake SSNs and papers. All the employer has to do it prove they checked the documents and they looked real. Several employers got away with hiring illegals at 2 companies in NM, which where busted by INS, got away because of this. Many of these companies that knowingly hire illegals are also large financial backers of many Republicans in congress, so you can count of them not to do nothing in regards to this.

4. Prosecute those who house illegals.

This doesn't make sense on the surface; we are not going to turn this country into a police state. It simply isn't a landlord's responsibly to check this kind of information. This was tried in a small town here in PA, and was struck down by the courts very quickly, its clearly unconstitutional, and puts to much of a burden on landlords to try and verify documents, something they have no experience in doing.

5. Deny all governemt services to illegals (School, medical, food, etc...)

Goes with the landlords responsibility. The job of a school is to teach children, the job of hospital is to heal people, not to play wanna be INS agents. Are you really telling me a doctor's first question to someone who was just in a car wreck should be "can I see your green card". This is America, not the Soviet Union.

6. Deny children born in the US by illegals to be citizens. (New years day baby was an illegal.)

As stated before, no law could change this. This would require amending the constitution.

7. All legals MUST learn English

How about we start teaching our own people proper English, then we can worry about our immigrants.

After all of the above is enacted and enforced then...

1. Look at a guest worker program that allows people to come and work from all over the globe.

Thats what we are doing right now, and its a joke. The guest worker / amnesty program congress passed in 1964, caused a four fold increase in the amount of illegal immigration, and did nothing to help them become legal.

2. Look at our current immigration limits and look for improvments.

This one I agree on. We need to at least triple or quadruple the amount of H-1B visas we allow in the country. The current bill Bush and Kennedy drafted actually decreases the amount of annual H-1B visas, and this will seriously hurt our high tech industries.

3. All possible immigrants/guest workers must learn and pass a test on English, US History, and our founding prinipals. They must agree to become a part of our melting pot if they plan to stay.

Again, we shouldn't make immigrants do something most of our own citizens couldn't do.

Also the metaphorical "Melting Pot" is an archaic idea that hasn't applied to our nation since the early 1900's, almost every major group coming to his country balkanize themselves into various little enclaves around most of our major cites.

4. All possible immigrants must be able to offer some skills that they can provide to our society.

Since when did an immigrant’s skill set determine their eligibility? We didn't even do then when we ran Ellis Island as our open immigration hub.

5. Enact a nation ID card system. Those of us who wish to drive get it upgraded to a drivers license at the DMV. Perhaps it could also work as a passport.

Forget immigration, the national ID is a horrible idea. This is the United States, not the Soviet Union, a national ID is too much a police state "show me your papers" type idea.

Amendment 10 of the Constitution states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

, as such it is the states responsibly to handle laws regarding licensing of drivers, laws regarding voter registration and such.

6. Require ID card to vote.

This is the other thing I agree on, but don't see how it really has to do with immigration.

[pushka]

What would you recommend being the ideal treatment of people seeking asylum in the USA?

[FrankJL]

Asylum seekers are a whole different topic, then immigration.

I'd say let them in. Most of them end up being very productive and good people.

[pushka]

Thanks FrankJL, I think here in the UK some people forget the fact that Asylum Seekers are a whole different ball game to immigrants.

[Annabelli]

Post didn't work right...ignore this.

using bold for your quotes...the quotes thing isn't working right for me.

Well as I said, with the other items enacted, it would take care of itself. If you take away their free ride, their housing, and their jobs... then they are going to get the heck out of here and fast

No they won't. Even without access to our social safety nets (or should I say hammocks), they can still make much more here then they can in Mexico, in low skilled manual labor jobs.

Not that it matters anyways. Liberals in congress see the illegals as a way of expanding the welfare state, and the Republicans in congress are too weak in the knees to even care. Neither party cares about what happens to the country, as long as they can try and vie for a few hispanic votes, by being soft on immigration. Even our supposed conservative President is bending over to appease the illegals.

I really wish you would have read what I said before making an accusation that I am just "dreaming up pipe dreams".

I did read your post. All of it is either wishful thinking, or in some cases doesn't need to be made into law, because it already is law. Its just we don't enforce the laws we have on the books, so making new laws will solve nothing. Since you insist I read your post lets go line by line here, and point out the flaws.

1. Deport all illegals.

Already answered this, not logistically feasible. They won't leave themselves, regardless of legislation passed, they broke the law coming, what makes you think they will respect any of our other laws.

2. Allow employeers to check legal status of workers before hirring (illegal to do now)

This isn't illegal now, its just not enforced. Supposing it was inforced though, there is a whole black market dedicated to creating false SSNs and other credentials for illegals. Also most employers know they are hiring illegals in the first place, and in some cases even help them get bogus documents.

3. Prosecute those who hire illegals.

Too difficult to do, esp with illegals using fake SSNs and papers. All the employer has to do it prove they checked the documents and they looked real. Several employers got away with hiring illegals at 2 companies in NM, which where busted by INS, got away because of this. Many of these companies that knowingly hire illegals are also large financial backers of many Republicans in congress, so you can count of them not to do nothing in regards to this.

4. Prosecute those who house illegals.

This doesn't make sense on the surface; we are not going to turn this country into a police state. It simply isn't a landlord's responsibly to check this kind of information. This was tried in a small town here in PA, and was struck down by the courts very quickly, its clearly unconstitutional, and puts to much of a burden on landlords to try and verify documents, something they have no experience in doing.

5. Deny all governemt services to illegals (School, medical, food, etc...)

Goes with the landlords responsibility. The job of a school is to teach children, the job of hospital is to heal people, not to play wanna be INS agents. Are you really telling me a doctor's first question to someone who was just in a car wreck should be "can I see your green card". This is America, not the Soviet Union.

6. Deny children born in the US by illegals to be citizens. (New years day baby was an illegal.)

As stated before, no law could change this. This would require amending the constitution.

7. All legals MUST learn English

How about we start teaching our own people proper English, then we can worry about our immigrants.

After all of the above is enacted and enforced then...

1. Look at a guest worker program that allows people to come and work from all over the globe.

Thats what we are doing right now, and its a joke. The guest worker / amnesty program congress passed in 1964, caused a four fold increase in the amount of illegal immigration, and did nothing to help them become legal.

2. Look at our current immigration limits and look for improvments.

This one I agree on. We need to at least triple or quadruple the amount of H-1B visas we allow in the country. The current bill Bush and Kennedy drafted actually decreases the amount of annual H-1B visas, and this will seriously hurt our high tech industries.

3. All possible immigrants/guest workers must learn and pass a test on English, US History, and our founding prinipals. They must agree to become a part of our melting pot if they plan to stay.

Again, we shouldn't make immigrants do something most of our own citizens couldn't do.

Also the metaphorical "Melting Pot" is an archaic idea that hasn't applied to our nation since the early 1900's, almost every major group coming to his country balkanize themselves into various little enclaves around most of our major cites.

4. All possible immigrants must be able to offer some skills that they can provide to our society.

Since when did an immigrant’s skill set determine their eligibility? We didn't even do then when we ran Ellis Island as our open immigration hub.

5. Enact a nation ID card system. Those of us who wish to drive get it upgraded to a drivers license at the DMV. Perhaps it could also work as a passport.

Forget immigration, the national ID is a horrible idea. This is the United States, not the Soviet Union, a national ID is too much a police state "show me your papers" type idea.

Amendment 10 of the Constitution states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

, as such it is the states responsibly to handle laws regarding licensing of drivers, laws regarding voter registration and such.

6. Require ID card to vote.

This is the other thing I agree on, but don't see how it really has to do with immigration.

As you well know, there are many people living and working in this country who are not citizens and described as illegal aliens. Not all of them are from Mexico but many are. How will it benefit you if they immigrate into the United States? The millions if not billions of dollars that they earn each year will then be taxed allowing more funds to maintain government programs such as highways, schools, etc. There will be an abundance of economic growth and prosperity and we will see a decline in the recession. There will be an increase in industrial development and technical advancement.

Not all the people immigrating into the U.S. will be on a poverty level. Many will be well educated persons wanting a better life as well.

[Traveler]

Wow. Interesting replies. I like the replies that suggest that we should not enforce difficult laws - that has to be a classic.

Some notes. For all the demand to change immigration laws I have never heard or seen any one criticize a specific law. It appears to me that the problem is not with the law but with the enforcement. Why change laws that are not enforced?

Let me give some examples: How about the law that excluded criminals from entry into the country? Shall we dump that one because it is difficult? How about a background check or a grantee from supporting governments that they grantee their citizens that they allow application - (like passports)?

How about health checks to insure they do not carry infectious diseases. I know that profiling is such a bad thing but how about we limit the number of immigrants that want to destroy our governments, religions and freedoms?

I see that some are concerned about our jails. Let’s start by registering all illegal immigrants. BTW do you know that half of the identify theft in the USA is done by illegal immigrants? We certainly do not want to try to put a dent in that.

For those that do not think by putting illegal immigrants in jail is possible there is a sheriff in Arizona that disagrees. He has created barb wire tent cities to house illegal’s and he can feed them for around $1.00 a day – mostly bologna with bread and water. And wonder of wonder illegals have left his county in droves – he has not had to deport anyone.

Most illegals come to the US because they are better off here than in their country. That is what must be changed. What ever the incentive is – is what we should expect.

The dumbest thing a society can do is not enforce its laws to protect its citizens. I wonder about those that think it is stupid to know or care who is coming into our country.

The Traveler

.

[FrankJL]

The millions if not billions of dollars that they earn each year will then be taxed allowing more funds to maintain government programs such as highways, schools, etc.

I could cite you a hundred sources that show illegal immigrants, are a net drain on our government. Whatever little bit they do contribute to the tax base they get back 10 fold in social services. That is for those that do pay taxes, most illegals are paid under the table and thus are immune from tax withholdings in the first place.

Also most of them don't own vehicles or houses so they don't contribute funds for schools or highways.

No House = No Property taxes (60-70% of most school districts funding is from property taxes)

No Car = No federal gas taxes (Gas taxes provide well over 90% of funding for major highways)

Of course not all the illegal immigration coming into this country is low skilled Mexican workers, but the vast majority is. Even those that are not Mexican, are still using the weak Mexican boarder to cross over. This has become common enough that the INS even has a term for them "OTMs", people caught crossing the boarders that are not Mexican, or even hispanic for that matter, they are coming from Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe.

Those that do have good marketable skills can come here on a special visa for tech industry workers, without illegally crossing our boarders. Its the H-1B visa that I was talking about in an earlier post. It allows them to come here, with their families, to work for 6 years while they apply for citizenship.

we will see a decline in the recession.

umm...we are not in a recession right now. In 2000 we had a few quarter of slight negative economic growth, though nothing to serious. So far we have only had two mild recessions in this century, after 9/11, and in 00-01 after the collapse of the dot.com bubble. The dot.com collapse though didn't really effect much outside of tech specific firms, and those that traded heavily in tech stocks on NASDAQ. Neither one of these really had much affect on common people, but only served as interesting study cases for people who study economics (like me, its my minor).

[Dr T]

I see that some are concerned about our jails. Let’s start by registering all illegal immigrants. BTW do you know that half of the identify theft in the USA is done by illegal immigrants? We certainly do not want to try to put a dent in that.

Reference please.

[pam]

"Quote" For those that do not think by putting illegal immigrants in jail is possible there is a sheriff in Arizona that disagrees. He has created barb wire tent cities to house illegal’s and he can feed them for around $1.00 a day – mostly bologna with bread and water. And wonder of wonder illegals have left his county in droves – he has not had to deport anyone.

I'm not sure I agree that has put a dent in the numbers. Just means they have avoided his area and have moved on to others. Again...So we make this a country of wire tent cities. Our taxes are still going towards the housing and feeding. Doesn't matter if free or retained.

[FrankJL]

I see that some are concerned about our jails. Let’s start by registering all illegal immigrants. BTW do you know that half of the identify theft in the USA is done by illegal immigrants? We certainly do not want to try to put a dent in that.

Reference please.

I want to see a refrence on that too.

I know illegals do contribute to identity theft, but that 50% seems way too high.

mostly bologna with bread and water

can anyone say scurvy?

[pam]

<div class='quotemain'>

I see that some are concerned about our jails. Let’s start by registering all illegal immigrants. BTW do you know that half of the identify theft in the USA is done by illegal immigrants? We certainly do not want to try to put a dent in that.

Reference please.

I want to see a refrence on that too.

I know illegals do contribute to identity theft, but that 50% seems way too high.

mostly bologna with bread and water

can anyone say scurvy?

I could say alot about the treatment of people by providing only bologna and bread and water but...I will refrain.