Addictions

[Aussie3]

Dear Seminarysnoozer

 

Do you mean that we really just return to one man and one woman like before Adam and Eve were given to each other by Heavenly Father in the garden of Eden? Like no marriage? As you answered (The Folk Prophet)"it doesn't matter because eventually it would be neither" (women) Is that what you meant because what about "Heavenly Mother" God's wife? Wasn't she there way before even the earth was created and before Adam was put on it?

 

Can you please clarify what you meant by neither women? Because this throws a huge spanner in the works if you are right, like families can be together forever? That the man is not to be without the woman and the woman is not to be without the man in the Lord? And that the man shall cleave unto his wife and they shall become one flesh??

 

What about having to enter into the everlasting covenant of marriage in order to gain exaltation?

 

Could you please help me understand this?

 

Thanks!

[Aussie3]

Sorry! It took me a while to understand what you were saying Seminarysnoozer. Did you mean he would be unrecognisable to neither of the women because he would of changed so much in the resurrection / exaltated state?

 

I think that is what you must of meant?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sorry! It took me a while to understand what you were saying Seminarysnoozer. Did you mean he would be unrecognisable to neither of the women because he would of changed so much in the resurrection / exaltated state?

 

I think that is what you must of meant?

Yes, that is what I meant.  Again, this is my personal belief, not something from the church but based in my understanding of the gospel and scriptures.  If one really believes that our corruption can take on incorruption then one would have to go back to a time that there was no corruption, in the Garden of Eden. The ressurection is a restoration to reverse the effects of the Fall. How has the Fall affected your current body?  However it has affected your current body, that will be reversed by the resurrection.

 

The changes that occur from the original would have to include all the differences in DNA from the original.  There is a reason that both Seth and Abel were in the "express image" of their father.  Consider what it means to be in the "express image" of their father, then consider that we are to have the image of Christ in our countenance. Consider what it means to be like our Heavenly Father in every way, to have ALL that He has.

 

I have a strong belief in this because I think it is important to understand as best we can the purpose of the body.  Why do we need a body to be like our Heavenly Father?  Because He has one is a simple answer.  If just having any body is all that is needed then the scriptures would not explain that there are different kinds of bodies, one for the Celestial as the sun is one, one for the moon and many different types for the Telestial as one star differs from another.  Why do the scriptures say "as one differs from another".  Is that a phrase that has no significance? 

 

Consider that Christ's prayer is that we be "one" like He is "one" with His father. We should pray for the same thing.

[Traveler]

It is my understanding that the essence of who and what we really are was spirit in the beginning.  I therefore believe that it is our spirit that is eternal.  There is thought that in the resurrection our physical body also becomes eternal but I personally have not been able to wrap that up very neatly with sound logic.  As best as I can understand our physical body becomes an integrated appendage or addition to our eternal spirit.  Let me give an example:

 

If we learn to play a musical instrument we will actually change the physical "wiring" of our very physical brain.  But I believe there is more to playing a musical instrument than just physical learning and physical changes.  I believe that our very eternal spirit also learns and changes as well - this is because our physical bodies are integrated with our spirit.  Likewise the spirit also learning will be reflected in changes in our physical abilities. 

 

Because the things we learn in this physical life have a corresponding effect on our integrated spirit what we learn is not forever lost and forgotten when we die but is retained by our spirit that is and always has been eternal.  Thus what we learn will continue in the resurrection.  Meaning that everything we learn in this life will have some lasting effect on our eternal spirit.  We are told that in keeping the commandments that the effect on our spirit will be a freeing and liberating affect.  Likewise we are told that indulging in sin will create a bondage or loss of freedom of our eternal spirit.

 

As far as addictions are concerned - I would submit that any cognitive addiction that we learn in this life will indeed have an effect on our eternal spirit.  I also believe that there is an advantage for a spirit to be integrated to a physical body - otherwise I see no reason for anyone to look forward to the resurrection.  But like all things - where there is an advantage there can also be a disadvantage.  It is both my understanding as well as my experience that discipline is the key to properly integrate the spirit with the joys that uniquely come with a physical body.  For this reason - to teach in part what we must do to discipline the integration of our physical being with our spirit all of the ordinances given concerning eternal salvation require a physical as well as spiritual commitment within the ordinance.  It is why the laying on of physical hands are integrated with spiritual priesthood blessings and ordinations. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is my understanding that the essence of who and what we really are was spirit in the beginning.  I therefore believe that it is our spirit that is eternal.  There is thought that in the resurrection our physical body also becomes eternal but I personally have not been able to wrap that up very neatly with sound logic.  As best as I can understand our physical body becomes an integrated appendage or addition to our eternal spirit.  Let me give an example:

 

If we learn to play a musical instrument we will actually change the physical "wiring" of our very physical brain.  But I believe there is more to playing a musical instrument than just physical learning and physical changes.  I believe that our very eternal spirit also learns and changes as well - this is because our physical bodies are integrated with our spirit.  Likewise the spirit also learning will be reflected in changes in our physical abilities. 

 

Because the things we learn in this physical life have a corresponding effect on our integrated spirit what we learn is not forever lost and forgotten when we die but is retained by our spirit that is and always has been eternal.  Thus what we learn will continue in the resurrection.  Meaning that everything we learn in this life will have some lasting effect on our eternal spirit.  We are told that in keeping the commandments that the effect on our spirit will be a freeing and liberating affect.  Likewise we are told that indulging in sin will create a bondage or loss of freedom of our eternal spirit.

 

As far as addictions are concerned - I would submit that any cognitive addiction that we learn in this life will indeed have an effect on our eternal spirit.  I also believe that there is an advantage for a spirit to be integrated to a physical body - otherwise I see no reason for anyone to look forward to the resurrection.  But like all things - where there is an advantage there can also be a disadvantage.  It is both my understanding as well as my experience that discipline is the key to properly integrate the spirit with the joys that uniquely come with a physical body.  For this reason - to teach in part what we must do to discipline the integration of our physical being with our spirit all of the ordinances given concerning eternal salvation require a physical as well as spiritual commitment within the ordinance.  It is why the laying on of physical hands are integrated with spiritual priesthood blessings and ordinations. 

The soul of man is both body and spirit.  So, logically speaking, the body of itself has to add to the soul something the spirit could not bring to the table by itself related to soul type things - in other words, not just some physical ability but a characteristic of the soul. 

As a crude example, I like to swim in the ocean.  Growing up and living in San Diego all my life I have developed a physical sense of peace to go out and swim in the ocean, especially on a warm sunny summer day.  My cousin, who rarely visits anymore, from another part of the country, hates to go swimming in the ocean, it makes her scared. Are these spiritual based likes or physical body likes. 

 

When a person has damage to both anterior temporal lobes of the brain they can develop a condition in which they become hyper-oral and hypersexual.  Did the damage to the brain also cause damage to the spirit to change the character of the person?  Or could it be that certain characteristics are only found in the physical brain?

 

There are thousands upon thousands of studies and information regarding the localization of personality in the brain.  The most famous case that started a lot of that discussion was that of Pheneus Gage, in which a tamping iron used in blasting rocks went through his frontal lobe in the early 1800s and caused a dramatic change in his personality from a well manered gentleman to one who would "induldge in profanities".   So, was the spirit affected or damaged by the physical injury or could it be that there are areas of the brain that drive things like social behaviors etc.? 

 

We believe that the body adds to the soul, the core nature of the individual and not that it is just an appendage or an outer covering, at least, the resurrected body to be such.  If that is what we believe then we have to believe that the body has character and soul of itself that it adds to that combination.  The spirit alone is not the soul of man.  And I don't think it is 99.9%, the soul of man.

 

One other thing to consider is to ask whether Christ was capable of the things He experienced during the atonement without a body?  Could have taken on the same feelings and empathy without a body, spirit alone? 

[Traveler]

The soul of man is both body and spirit.  So, logically speaking, the body of itself has to add to the soul something the spirit could not bring to the table by itself related to soul type things - in other words, not just some physical ability but a characteristic of the soul. 

 

I completely agree that the spirit and the physical are integrated such that both have an effect on each other as well as contribute to to soul

 

 

As a crude example, I like to swim in the ocean.  Growing up and living in San Diego all my life I have developed a physical sense of peace to go out and swim in the ocean, especially on a warm sunny summer day.  My cousin, who rarely visits anymore, from another part of the country, hates to go swimming in the ocean, it makes her scared. Are these spiritual based likes or physical body likes.

Both, because the spirit and the physical body are integrated and learn together.  Thus both the spirit and the body learn together and complement each other so that your feeling of peace is not just physical but spiritual as well.

 

 

When a person has damage to both anterior temporal lobes of the brain they can develop a condition in which they become hyper-oral and hypersexual.  Did the damage to the brain also cause damage to the spirit to change the character of the person?  Or could it be that certain characteristics are only found in the physical brain?

 

There are thousands upon thousands of studies and information regarding the localization of personality in the brain.  The most famous case that started a lot of that discussion was that of Pheneus Gage, in which a tamping iron used in blasting rocks went through his frontal lobe in the early 1800s and caused a dramatic change in his personality from a well manered gentleman to one who would "induldge in profanities".   So, was the spirit affected or damaged by the physical injury or could it be that there are areas of the brain that drive things like social behaviors etc.?

Not sure what you are trying to imply here.  Are you saying that there is nothing to be gained spiritually from physical difficulties?  If so - I think otherwise and believe every physical possibility has a possible spiritual benefit and that life - even the handicap can have good purpose and meaning.  Otherwise G-d would command us to put such poor and tragic individual to a merciful death.

 

 

We believe that the body adds to the soul, the core nature of the individual and not that it is just an appendage or an outer covering, at least, the resurrected body to be such.  If that is what we believe then we have to believe that the body has character and soul of itself that it adds to that combination.  The spirit alone is not the soul of man.  And I don't think it is 99.9%, the soul of man.

 

One other thing to consider is to ask whether Christ was capable of the things He experienced during the atonement without a body?  Could have taken on the same feelings and empathy without a body, spirit alone?

I have no idea what you are trying to say above.  I am not sure what point you are trying to make??  Previously when I referred to the body as an appendage - I meant that the body adds something to our eternal spirit that cannot be realized otherwise and was not part of our eternal person previous to a physical experience.  Sorry I do not understand what you are trying to say???

[Ratbag]

Snoozer-

 

Can you clarify something?  Are you saying that once we die, we don't take any of our fleshy desires, i.e., our appetites and passions with us?  I'm not quite following you.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Snoozer-

 

Can you clarify something?  Are you saying that once we die, we don't take any of our fleshy desires, i.e., our appetites and passions with us?  I'm not quite following you.

That is the goal, to not serve mammon, to not become "of" the flesh, to not be carnally minded, to not remain as the natural man, to be born again but not of the flesh.  There are at least three phrases that describe not taking our fleshy desires into the next life; 1. putting off the natural man, 2. bridle the passions of the flesh and 3. to be spiritually minded (as opposed to carnally minded)

 

If one does those things then one does not have to take the fleshy (carnal) desires into the next life even though we live in the flesh in this world.  It is the difference between living in the flesh vs being of the flesh.

 

I think the only carnal appetites and passions that remain are the ones that are internalized, the ones that become the treasures of the heart.  That happens when one is carnally minded.  It is important to distinguish the "carnal mind" from "carnally minded".  The carnal mind is the description of the passions that come from the flesh (neuroanatomy, hormones etc.).  To be carnally minded is when one's spirit takes that in and makes it part of their spiritual make up.  If one is carnally minded when they die then that appetite will carry through.  If one "puts off" the natural man (the carnal mind) then those appetites will not be carried through with the spirit.

 

As Paul explains so beautifully in Romans 8; "10 And if ^aChrist be in you, ^bthe body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of ^crighteousness.

 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also ^aquicken your ^bmortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye ^ashall die: but if ye through the Spirit do ^bmortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

 

He explains that we have to now live in the flesh but we can make those passions dead by being spiritually minded and not internalizing the mortal body passions.  But if one takes in the mortal body passions then one is living "after the flesh".  We can "mortify the deeds of the body" by listening to the Spirit that communicates with our spirit.  If Christ is in us, the body is dead - i.e. - we don't pay attention to the appetites of the body. How does one "mortify the deeds of the body"?  By not making them a part of our spiritual make up and then they also die when the body dies - they are gone, they are not carried with us. We are debtors, not to the flesh! (A great description of addiction - to be a debtor to the flesh)

 

Again, I think Elder Bednar says it very clearly in modern day terms, April 2013 Conference; "The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."

[Iggy]

Didn't read all of the responses - so if this is already mentioned, then here it is again.

 

It is my understanding that when we pass over, IF we had Parkinson, Alzheimer, any type of disabilities (like missing one or more limbs, etc.), or lost a limb(s) or were burned yet survived during our mortal life; then when we passed over and at the time of resurrection we would be whole and without these imperfections.

 

Thus, if during our mortal life we became addicted - then it follows that in the spirit world we will not be addicted. 

 

If you accept the Gospel in the Spirit world, then you will be washed clean when your proxy work if done for you - ergo, no addictions. If you accepted the Gospel and were baptized into The Church of Latter-day Saints in the mortal world and then became addicted and died without repenting, you are still able to repent in the Spirit World - ergo, no addictions.

[Ratbag]

Snoozer-

 

Sorry, but this still didn't clarify what you are saying.  My understanding is that an addiction is a weakness that we give into that rules our lives.  Hence the term "addiction."  So, either it is a fleshy desire that rules our lives or it is a weakness that we have overcome and is no longer an addiction, therefore, not something we take with us when we die.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Snoozer-

 

Sorry, but this still didn't clarify what you are saying.  My understanding is that an addiction is a weakness that we give into that rules our lives.  Hence the term "addiction."  So, either it is a fleshy desire that rules our lives or it is a weakness that we have overcome and is no longer an addiction, therefore, not something we take with us when we die.

An Addiction is a continued repetition of a behavior despite it having negative consequences or a neurologic impairment leading to such consequences.

 

If that is the definition of addiction then I am afraid all of us are addicted because none of us are perfect.  The flesh rules our lives, we are in the flesh.  You cannot use a strict definition of it being a fleshy desire that rules our lives because then everyone would fall into that category.  The Apostles wanted to stay awake and watch and pray while in the Garden with Jesus but they couldn't.  The "flesh ruled their lives" during that event because even though the spirit is willing the flesh is weak.  But there is a difference between desires of the flesh and desires of the spirit.  We are dual beings with two natures.  If the spirit adopts the tendencies of the flesh as its own then that is something that will continue.  We cannot get rid of the "thorn in the flesh" any more than Paul could during this life.

 

Lets just say for sake of arguement that Paul's thorn in the flesh was anorexia nervosa (we don't know what his thorn in the flesh was).  And with that thorn in the flesh he had an addiction to exercise.  Despite him trying to make it stop, the flesh kept driving a desire to loose weight, his body was addicted to loosing weight and yet he realized this was a behavior that had negative consequences.  So long as Paul's spirit doesn't learn to love that addiction it will not continue with him in the next life, it dies with the body that is driving that addiction. 

 

Let me give you another example.  There are described cases of people devloping an addiction to gambling after taking a class of medications called dopamine agonists.   These are medications used for Parkinsons disease.  So, if a person that gets such a reaction were to become "addicted" to gambling as a result of such medication and the person dies with such an addiction that they obviously did not overcome, you want to say that it will continue with them in the next life?   What if it is just the body that desired such things and not the spirit?   I don't think the medication had an effect on the spirit directly in that example.  Only the body was affected and then an addiction developed.  We have two natures, one of the body and one of the spirit.  We are being judged based on the nature of our spirit and God takes into account the circumstances of the body and all the variables that we cannot see.

 

If someone has depression ( and there have been recent talks about mental illness) and as a result they are "addicted" to sleep, the brain gives that person a drive to sleep all the time even though their spirit strugles with such an issue, the thorn in the flesh.  If they died with such a problem it may or may not continue with them.  It all depends on whether the spirit falls in love with that trait, if it becomes a "desire of the heart".  If it is only a feature of the body and not of the spirit then it will not continue with them.  Some people fall in love with their illness, they say "this is who I am" and that is when they have reached the point of despair where their spirit starts to take on those characteristics.  By remaining with hope, the problem may continue one's whole life but it doesn't have to become part of one's spiritual nature, this is what is meant by hope and to hope for all things.  Whether any given behavior is just from the body or part of one's spiritual nature, we cannot judge, we do not have that ability to tell the difference, but God does.  

[Traveler]

I am going out on a bit of a limb with the very intent that someone poke logical holes if they can and will.  I would say theological holes but theology is so broad and often seem to me that theology sometimes lacks intelligence.  Yes - I know I have prejudices but please try not to make that the focus - rather lets discuss the related topic and see what we can learn together.

 

Sometimes I think that the things of the flesh get a bad and unnecessary rap because of wording coming from translations and various attempts at logic based more in defending a point of view or rationalizing a misconception rather than trying to understand what is going on.

 

My first point is that the opportunity to have a body of flesh is a blessing and overall a good thing.  The initial term carnal simple means the needs of the flesh.  Things that the flesh desires beyond needs are not really carnal.  We can call them desires of the flesh but in essence we are talking about a counterfeit or manufactured need that is not necessarily something actually a need of the flesh.  Many extend carnal to things beyond needs but the term "of the flesh" does not of necessity mean evil or corrupt.  Eating is a carnal need of the flesh - and the resurrected Christ ate - which mean he participated in a carnal act of the flesh as a completely glorified resurrected being. 

 

Second point is sensual.  For the most part those that are concerned with the sensual seem to me to over cook this concept as well.  The root meaning of sensual simply means the experience of the five senses - which are sight, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling.  If anyone is looking forward to not being sensual in the resurrection (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling) please communicate to me what you think a resurrected being would do with out physical senses?

 

To me this physical experience is like a fire.  A fire can be useful if it is kept under control.  If we keep fire bounded under our control it give us comfort, protection, power and a great many other wonderful and beneficial things.  But if we let fire out of control it will become our worse enemy.  The warning of fire is not to play with it and to not respect it or it will not serve us.  Likewise we are warned of the flesh and the carnal nature of a physical body.  The warning is not to play with it and that we must respect it or it - like fire will not serve us.

 

Final point - I am having great difficulty understanding why anyone thinks that our mortal experience will not affect us spiritually.  Really?  The traditional religious thinking is that our mortal physical experience will end our spirits in ether heaven or hell for eternity.  The LDS doctrine is that our mortal physical experience will land us in the Celestial Kingdom or something less. And what is a physical addiction if it is not the physical out of control? 

 

I have suggested that any less than perfect physical condition we experience in this mortal existence we can repent of and be rid of in the resurrection.  Seminary has suggested that anything that we have been involved in that is not the desire of our heart we can repent of and be rid of.  I am not really in love with her terminology because I think it is incomplete - but I can live with it to agree on the most important point.  Which is that we repent of our physical weaknesses that we do not want to take with us in eternity.  This is because of the atonement of Christ.  But I am quite sure that without repentance we will take with us what ever physical habits, strange desires, sicknesses or disabilities we learn desire more than complete perfection.

 

I strongly suggest that we learn to dearly love disciplining our physical bodies and enjoying the good feelings and other good things that a body of flesh has to offer.

[Aussie3]

I have to agree with Traveler!

 

The way I see weaknesses is the way that the prophet's and church leaders and my own pondering / observations has lead me to believe. Weaknesses are to be overcome here and that is the testing of our spirits. I feel that is why there are three degrees of Glory and outer darkness.

 

Those that are valiant and become strong by overcoming temptation make the Celestial realm. I really believe that your character is put to the test in this world in order to have eternal laws and ordinances up held in the next. Imagine giving all the powers of the universe and exaltation to someone who could not overcome addictions. This could really throw a spanner in God's works, especially between good and evil.

 

Look how easily led Lucifer was because he was prideful and he only had a spirit body. He was still able to convince 1/3 of all our spirit brothers and sisters to follow him. Just imagine what harm  an exalted addicted weak person could do if they were led astray after gaining exaltation???

 

This is why I know that evil and unclean spirits are about trying to tempt and possess those of us that are weak and addicted. Once addictions become compulsions it is almost impossible to get rid of them because of the unclean and evil spirit component of the addiction. I know that these evil and unclean spirits do not want us to become strong and valiant and receive exaltation.

 

In the Celestial Kingdom we live off Celestial fruit and vegetables to stay exalted (Journal of Discourses). I do know that we have corrupted food, water, air, drugs, Governments, people etc here on the earth. However as LDS we should also have the spirit of discernment to know what is going on around us good and evil. Or at least we should be striving for it. 

[Lakumi]

Will there be Celestial Pepsi, if not then my addiction would be cut off right there.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am going out on a bit of a limb with the very intent that someone poke logical holes if they can and will.  I would say theological holes but theology is so broad and often seem to me that theology sometimes lacks intelligence.  Yes - I know I have prejudices but please try not to make that the focus - rather lets discuss the related topic and see what we can learn together.

 

Sometimes I think that the things of the flesh get a bad and unnecessary rap because of wording coming from translations and various attempts at logic based more in defending a point of view or rationalizing a misconception rather than trying to understand what is going on.

 

My first point is that the opportunity to have a body of flesh is a blessing and overall a good thing.  The initial term carnal simple means the needs of the flesh.  Things that the flesh desires beyond needs are not really carnal.  We can call them desires of the flesh but in essence we are talking about a counterfeit or manufactured need that is not necessarily something actually a need of the flesh.  Many extend carnal to things beyond needs but the term "of the flesh" does not of necessity mean evil or corrupt.  Eating is a carnal need of the flesh - and the resurrected Christ ate - which mean he participated in a carnal act of the flesh as a completely glorified resurrected being. 

 

Second point is sensual.  For the most part those that are concerned with the sensual seem to me to over cook this concept as well.  The root meaning of sensual simply means the experience of the five senses - which are sight, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling.  If anyone is looking forward to not being sensual in the resurrection (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling) please communicate to me what you think a resurrected being would do with out physical senses?

 

To me this physical experience is like a fire.  A fire can be useful if it is kept under control.  If we keep fire bounded under our control it give us comfort, protection, power and a great many other wonderful and beneficial things.  But if we let fire out of control it will become our worse enemy.  The warning of fire is not to play with it and to not respect it or it will not serve us.  Likewise we are warned of the flesh and the carnal nature of a physical body.  The warning is not to play with it and that we must respect it or it - like fire will not serve us.

 

Final point - I am having great difficulty understanding why anyone thinks that our mortal experience will not affect us spiritually.  Really?  The traditional religious thinking is that our mortal physical experience will end our spirits in ether heaven or hell for eternity.  The LDS doctrine is that our mortal physical experience will land us in the Celestial Kingdom or something less. And what is a physical addiction if it is not the physical out of control? 

 

I have suggested that any less than perfect physical condition we experience in this mortal existence we can repent of and be rid of in the resurrection.  Seminary has suggested that anything that we have been involved in that is not the desire of our heart we can repent of and be rid of.  I am not really in love with her terminology because I think it is incomplete - but I can live with it to agree on the most important point.  Which is that we repent of our physical weaknesses that we do not want to take with us in eternity.  This is because of the atonement of Christ.  But I am quite sure that without repentance we will take with us what ever physical habits, strange desires, sicknesses or disabilities we learn desire more than complete perfection.

 

I strongly suggest that we learn to dearly love disciplining our physical bodies and enjoying the good feelings and other good things that a body of flesh has to offer.

Your first point is absolutely not true!  (haven't time to go through the rest of it yet)  If someone has anxiety for example, there are manufactured "needs" from the body for things that the body doesn't really need.  The brain constantly misinterprets, anticipates and imagines all sorts of desires and passions that are not necessarily needed.  If a man is attracted to another woman other than his wife, is that a need?  Boloney!  That is not a need.

 

If my husband's eye is caught by a woman walking by who is attractive and flaunting her body but then he turns his head and doesn't act on that immediate impulse then I am proud.  I am not mad.  I realize that his body's passions and drives leads to the reflex of being attracted to a beautiful woman and that doesn't mean his spirit is desiring to be with another woman.  If he, however, continues to look at her then I would be mad as that would suggest that he either doesn't have control of his body or that his spirit is desirous of that passion and wants to pursue the carnal passion.  There is a difference between the passions of the body and what the spirit, when in control, does in reaction to those passions.  There is a battle, what wins out reveals if a person is carnally minded vs. spiritually minded.

 

Let me ask you this, if you had a bad dream in which you cheated on your spouse, is that a sin?  Why not? 

 

Proverbs 23; "7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he"  The question is; was the dream "thinking from the heart" or not?  If it wasn't from the heart, where was it from?   I'll answer that; it is from the brain, which is not 'from the heart'.  The brain can generate thoughts and desires and wants that are not necesarily needed for any carnal survival but simply for pleasure or comfort (therefore not a need) or some made up need, like a phobia or obsession and that can be different than anything generated by the spirit.  

 

Do you know what an obsession is? Obsessions are thoughts that recur and persist despite efforts to ignore or confront them.  The person doesn't want them but they are there and overriding, it causes anxiety and frustration because the thoughts go against what they really want to do and the person feels like they have to complete the act to get rid of the thought, like washing hands, checking if the door is locked or even sexual obsessions etc.  How can there be a conflict like that unless there are two sources for the thoughts?   Is an obsession a sin?  Why not?  Is is a sin to not overpower the obsession spiritually?  I don't know, that is for God to judge knowing all the variables.  Maybe in some it is a sin because they could have done things to control it, whereas others despite their best efforts that "thorn in the flesh" remains their whole life uncontrolled.  God will judge that.

[Traveler]

Your first point is absolutely not true!  (haven't time to go through the rest of it yet)  If someone has anxiety for example, there are manufactured "needs" from the body for things that the body doesn't really need.  The brain constantly misinterprets, anticipates and imagines all sorts of desires and passions that are not necessarily needed.  If a man is attracted to another woman other than his wife, is that a need?  Boloney!  That is not a need.

 

If my husband's eye is caught by a woman walking by who is attractive and flaunting her body but then he turns his head and doesn't act on that immediate impulse then I am proud.  I am not mad.  I realize that his body's passions and drives leads to the reflex of being attracted to a beautiful woman and that doesn't mean his spirit is desiring to be with another woman.  If he, however, continues to look at her then I would be mad as that would suggest that he either doesn't have control of his body or that his spirit is desirous of that passion and wants to pursue the carnal passion.  There is a difference between the passions of the body and what the spirit, when in control, does in reaction to those passions.  There is a battle, what wins out reveals if a person is carnally minded vs. spiritually minded.

 

Let me ask you this, if you had a bad dream in which you cheated on your spouse, is that a sin?  Why not? 

 

Proverbs 23; "7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he"  The question is; was the dream "thinking from the heart" or not?  If it wasn't from the heart, where was it from?   I'll answer that; it is from the brain, which is not 'from the heart'.  The brain can generate thoughts and desires and wants that are not necesarily needed for any carnal survival but simply for pleasure or comfort (therefore not a need) or some made up need, like a phobia or obsession and that can be different than anything generated by the spirit.  

 

Do you know what an obsession is? Obsessions are thoughts that recur and persist despite efforts to ignore or confront them.  The person doesn't want them but they are there and overriding, it causes anxiety and frustration because the thoughts go against what they really want to do and the person feels like they have to complete the act to get rid of the thought, like washing hands, checking if the door is locked or even sexual obsessions etc.  How can there be a conflict like that unless there are two sources for the thoughts?   Is an obsession a sin?  Why not?  Is is a sin to not overpower the obsession spiritually?  I don't know, that is for God to judge knowing all the variables.  Maybe in some it is a sin because they could have done things to control it, whereas others despite their best efforts that "thorn in the flesh" remains their whole life uncontrolled.  God will judge that.

 

My first point:

 

My first point is that the opportunity to have a body of flesh is a blessing and overall a good thing.

 

I think you opposition to my first point is not explained by you post.  I am trying to understand why you think there is - in the final scheme of things - reason to believe having the experience of a body of flesh a bad thing with no hope of ever having eternal value from the experience.  I am inclined to believe you miss read and misunderstood my first point.  But perhaps I have not understood you opposition to such a thought and that you really believe a body of flesh and bones is an evil curse from which the aggregate result is unconditionally and inevitability bad.

[Aussie3]

Snoozer-

 

Well, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but what you are preaching is nothing more than the wisdom of the world mingled with scripture.  We take our personality with us when we die.  ALL of our personality, including all our bad habits, character flaws, faults and addictions, in addition to our good qualities.  What you are preaching sounds more like the "eat, drink and be merry" and if we are guilty, "God will beat us with a few stripes" crowd.

 

Our personality is eternal.  We brought it with us from the premortal world.  In 1912, the First Presidency made the following statement:

"The written standards of scripture show that all people who come to this earth and are born in mortality, had a pre-existent, spiritual personality, as the sons and daughters of the Eternal Father." (Improvement Era, Mar 1912, Pg. 417)

 

Elder Russell M. Nelson stated:

"Important as is the body, it serves as a tabernacle for one's eternal spirit.  Our spirits existed in the premortal realm and will continue to live after the body dies.  The spirit provides the body with animation and personality. ("Thanks Be to God," Ensign, May 2012)

 

We develop our personality on this earth through our experiences, what we do, what we think, say and how we react to the consequences of our actions, both good and bad.  When we die, we are the exact same person in the postmortal world. 

 

In 1918, Elder Anthony W. Ivins gave a conference talk specifically addressing this subject.

"...the personality of the individual persists after death, otherwise how could he be responsible for the deeds done in the body?  The two outstanding attributes of God are justice and mercy.  How can I in justice be held responsible for the transgressions of another or rewarded for his righteousness?  No; I must answer for myself, just as you must answer for yourself; so my personality must persist, I must be the same man, my future life inseparably connected with this life.  (Conference Reports, Apr. 1918, Pg. 85)

 

From the church publication, "Preach My Gospel," pg. 52:

"Death does not change our personality or our desires for good or evil.  Those who chose to obey God in this life live in a state of happiness, peace, and rest from troubles and care.  Those who chose not to obey in this life and did not repent live in a state of unhappiness."

 

From another church publication, "Introduction to Family History, Student Manual 2012," Pg. 8:

"Death will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil.  If you choose to follow Jesus Christ during your life on Earth, you will be at peace in the spirit world.  Those who choose not to follow Christ and do not repent will be unhappy."

 

You are twisting the things you've quoted to suit your own beliefs without researching further to understand what the prophets truly mean.  You seem to think it is the corrupted body that causes us to become addicted or have character flaws.  This couldn't be farther from the truth. 

[Just_A_Guy]

Snoozer-

 

Well, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but what you are preaching is nothing more than the wisdom of the world mingled with scripture.  We take our personality with us when we die.  ALL of our personality, including all our bad habits, character flaws, faults and addictions, in addition to our good qualities.  What you are preaching sounds more like the "eat, drink and be merry" and if we are guilty, "God will beat us with a few stripes" crowd.

 

I think you're being a little harsh, if I'm reading Snoozer correctly.  I think all she's really saying is that addiction has two facets:  one that's tied with our fallen bodies (chemical dependency/physiological disorders of the mind), and another that's tied to our spirits.  The former gets left behind; but the latter, we take with us if we haven't utilized the Atonement to get a handle on it in this life.

 

I don't see what's wrong with that.  Is your position that chemical dependencies somehow interact with the spirit and therefore last beyond the veil?  For example, will the spirit of a dead meth addict start tweaking?

[Ratbag]

@Just_A_Guy

 

Aussie wasn't being harsh at all.  Addiction has two facets, but as I pointed out earlier, everything starts in the mind.  Remember that chemical addiction has two components: physical and psychological.  It's the psychological part that is mental and everything mental goes with us.  Everything single thing we ever thought or felt goes with us.  Your feelings and desires go with you, so if you have an uncontrollable urge to tweak, you'll still have that urge. 

 

Reread what was posted by Aussie.  We don't lose our desires for good or bad when we die.  That is church doctrine.  It isn't much simpler than that.

[Quin]

Snoozer-

 .  First off, Tourette's isn't an addiction, it is caused through possession by an unclean spirit. 

 

I was just scanning through this thread and got knocked off my chair by this statement.

1) No. No it isn't. Tourette's and other neurological disorders are NOT caused by unclean spirits or any other kind of possession, demon or otherwise. They're physiological disorders. Just like any other physiological disorder.

2) To continue to pick on Tourette's for a moment... There is NOTHING inherently wrong, evil, or unclean with Tourette's! Ya wanna start talking badly about psychopathy, then I might be tempted to get on board for even a moment, but Tourette's??? It's just a series of tics, that while distracting and frustrating at times for sure, but in no way predicts anything about the person themselves who has it. No more than a sprained ankle predicts a limp. People with Tourette's can be phenomenally holy, totally normal like most of us, or complete jerks. Their disorder has nothing to do with their personality, who they are, or how they think or choose to act.

Q

[Just_A_Guy]

@Just_A_Guy

Aussie wasn't being harsh at all. Addiction has two facets, but as I pointed out earlier, everything starts in the mind. Remember that chemical addiction has two components: physical and psychological. It's the psychological part that is mental and everything mental goes with us.

As Quin suggests, I think you're making a HUGE overstatement here. The psychological and the chemical/hormonal are not so neatly parsed out. If tweaking is purely mental in origin, why can it be managed with medication?

Reread what was posted by Aussie. We don't lose our desires for good or bad when we die. That is church doctrine. It isn't much simpler than that.

I agree. I think Seminarysnoozer does too--I read her as saying that evil desires don't follow us if we master them in mortality. That being the case--yes, Aussie was very harsh indeed.

I don't discount the presence/influence of evil spirits; but I get worried at the medical Luddism that a preoccupation with such things can occasionally engender.

[Aussie3]

I think the main problem with LDS accepting that people get possessed and according to Brigham Young many people do. Is that they always with out fail associate being possessed with being absolutely evil (standard, stereo).

 

Mary Magdaline had 7 evil spirits in her? However some LDS think that she is Jesus' wife?

 

What about in the Journal of Discourses / Church History where an evil spirit was cast out of a woman by a future apostle and then the same evil spirit entered into her tiny baby. The same apostle had to go back and cast the same evil spirit out of the baby because the baby became sick and lifeless?

 

Evil and unclean spirits love the vulnerable they are able to cause much affliction and especially confusion when they possess the already vulnerable and afflicted. They love to pick on the cognitively impaired the most.

 

When will LDS learn this and start using the Priesthood to cast out and really HELP the sick and afflicted? 

[Just_A_Guy]

I think that dealing with spirits goes on in the modern Church more than you think it does. On the other hand, I also think that there often really is a bona fide medical explanation and that evil spirits just aren't involved.

When one's favorite tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Aussie3]

Yeah of course there is sickness without evil spirits!

 

However the fact that evil spirits are involved in so many people's lives but most of these people do not even acknowledge their influence or power, they automatically turn to their false God's (Doctors) and not Jesus Christ for answers.

 

For instance my daughter has suffered from so called schizophrenia for seven years. All the doctors told me that it is all in her imagination and she needs to be doped up to the eye balls with enough medication to drop a buffalo. I could of said "oh yes my God's I will do all you request because you are the God's of this world and I love you more the Jesus Christ." (Not even)

 

However I recognised that although my daughters cognitions were not functioning properly (yep a problem with her brain) I also noticed and felt that there was more going on. I recognised that she was possessed straight away because of the Holy Spirit.

 

When my daughter was in a psychosis:

 

She never broke the law of chastity and still hasn't.

She didn't go on a drinking and drug binging rampage

She didn't steal anything

She didn't and has never hurt anyone physically

 

But:

 

She thought that she was Catholic  ( not LDS)

She thought that she was a destroying angel sent by God

She swore

She could see spirits all the time

She could hear spirits talking to her all the time

She knew things were going to happen before they happened

 

In her damaged cognitive state she got possessed by an evil spirit and now we cast them out every night before she goes to sleep so she doesn't have the worst nightmares imaginable. Despite all this she is the loveliest most gentle girl you could ever wish to meet.    

[Just_A_Guy]

From Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Like a Broken Vessel: 

 

If things continue to be debilitating, seek the advice of reputable people with certified training, professional skills, and good values. Be honest with them about your history and your struggles. Prayerfully and responsibly consider the counsel they give and the solutions they prescribe. If you had appendicitis, God would expect you to seek a priesthood blessing and get the best medical care available. So too with emotional disorders. Our Father in Heaven expects us to use all of the marvelous gifts He has provided in this glorious dispensation.