Addictions

[Just_A_Guy]

From Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Like a Broken Vessel: 

 

If things continue to be debilitating, seek the advice of reputable people with certified training, professional skills, and good values. Be honest with them about your history and your struggles. Prayerfully and responsibly consider the counsel they give and the solutions they prescribe. If you had appendicitis, God would expect you to seek a priesthood blessing and get the best medical care available. So too with emotional disorders. Our Father in Heaven expects us to use all of the marvelous gifts He has provided in this glorious dispensation.

 

[Seminarysnoozer]

Snoozer-

 

Well, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but what you are preaching is nothing more than the wisdom of the world mingled with scripture.  We take our personality with us when we die.  ALL of our personality, including all our bad habits, character flaws, faults and addictions, in addition to our good qualities.  What you are preaching sounds more like the "eat, drink and be merry" and if we are guilty, "God will beat us with a few stripes" crowd.

 

Our personality is eternal.  We brought it with us from the premortal world.  In 1912, the First Presidency made the following statement:

"The written standards of scripture show that all people who come to this earth and are born in mortality, had a pre-existent, spiritual personality, as the sons and daughters of the Eternal Father." (Improvement Era, Mar 1912, Pg. 417)

 

Elder Russell M. Nelson stated:

"Important as is the body, it serves as a tabernacle for one's eternal spirit.  Our spirits existed in the premortal realm and will continue to live after the body dies.  The spirit provides the body with animation and personality. ("Thanks Be to God," Ensign, May 2012)

 

We develop our personality on this earth through our experiences, what we do, what we think, say and how we react to the consequences of our actions, both good and bad.  When we die, we are the exact same person in the postmortal world. 

 

In 1918, Elder Anthony W. Ivins gave a conference talk specifically addressing this subject.

"...the personality of the individual persists after death, otherwise how could he be responsible for the deeds done in the body?  The two outstanding attributes of God are justice and mercy.  How can I in justice be held responsible for the transgressions of another or rewarded for his righteousness?  No; I must answer for myself, just as you must answer for yourself; so my personality must persist, I must be the same man, my future life inseparably connected with this life.  (Conference Reports, Apr. 1918, Pg. 85)

 

From the church publication, "Preach My Gospel," pg. 52:

"Death does not change our personality or our desires for good or evil.  Those who chose to obey God in this life live in a state of happiness, peace, and rest from troubles and care.  Those who chose not to obey in this life and did not repent live in a state of unhappiness."

 

From another church publication, "Introduction to Family History, Student Manual 2012," Pg. 8:

"Death will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil.  If you choose to follow Jesus Christ during your life on Earth, you will be at peace in the spirit world.  Those who choose not to follow Christ and do not repent will be unhappy."

 

You are twisting the things you've quoted to suit your own beliefs without researching further to understand what the prophets truly mean.  You seem to think it is the corrupted body that causes us to become addicted or have character flaws.  This couldn't be farther from the truth. 

I don't disagree with anything you have posted here, so no bubble burst.  The only thing I am saying is that we have a hard time distinguishing what is the personality of the spirit and what are the traits of the corrupted body.  In some cases it might be more obvious but in most it is difficult to distinguish.

 

For example, if a person with Tourette's yells out an explicative almost every time they hear the word "Jesus", is that their personality or their body?  If someone with severe depression or anxiety says "I can't go to church today", is that their spirit or their body's personality coming out?   When the apostles wanted to stay awake and watch in the Garden of Gethsemane but didn't was that because their spirits had that personality, to fall asleep in those situations or was it the trait of the body?  We are told what it was - the spirit is willing but the body is weak.  If the spirit is willing but the body is weak and like you are trying to say that the only thing that drives personality (how we act) is the spirit, then the apostles commited sin while in the Garden of Gesthemane and the person with Tourrette's yelling out explicatives commits sin everytime she does that and the people that stay home from church because of some overwhelming mental disorder are commiting sin, in your book. 

 

How is it that those things are not sins?  Because there are thoughts, drives and passions that are generated by the body and then their are personality traits that are driven by the spirit.

 

How much of what you do comes from the spirit vs the body?  Consider this, as a spirit we were in the presence of God for ages, for eons and we matured to a full grown adult spirit with all of her traits and characteristics developed.  If we are full grown spirits and adults as we enter into this life, then why can't we remember our spiritual characteristics and act like our adult self the moment we are born in this world?  Why can't we have an adult, intelligent conversation at day number one of life, a conversation like one who has spent ages with the Father to the point of maturity?  You may say "because of the veil".  Then I would say "Bingo!!!!!!"   That is exactly how much your spirit's personality comes out from behind the veil.

 

We are told that we have a hard time seeing the inner man.  I know I do.  Why is that?  because it is not expressed in every day life and unless one is highly in tune with the spirit and looking at someone on a spiritual level, ignoring the outer man, then all one sees is the outer man (the body, the brain and the personality of that half of our dual natured being).

 

The prophets have taught that we have dual natures that oppose each other.  You can choose to believe that or not.  But I believe the prophets that we have dual natures.  What is meant by "nature"?   It means tendencies, behaviors, personality traits.  We have two sets of those while in this life!!!!  But, you are right, only one of those is eternal in nature.  And I have said that all along.  That is why we don't want to fall in love with the nature that turns to dust, don't put your heart in treasures that turn to dust.  The trick is figuring out which traits are those. 

 

I will give you a contemporary example of this, people that have same sex attraction.  The test is failed when the person says things like "I was born this way".  This may be true, but that is the test.  Does one struggle to find their spiritual identity or take the "natural" course and give into the natural man, the natural passions of the body?  We are told that we have gender in the pre-mortal life?  If all that comes out in this life is the personality of the spirit then you are going to have to explain how and why God put that certain gender orientation into the wrong body.   I understand that struggle because it is the same for all of us but for various traits.  Our spirit's personality does not match up with our body's while in this life.  There is opposition in that, for all of us.  Once one understands this important set up for this life, then one can better understand the true nature of self and all those around you and love them for who they truly are as opposed to their outer man.

 

How is it that Jesus can say 'forgive them for they know not what they do'?   How can they do anything that they don't know what they are doing?  Because there is a difference between spirit self and what the body does.

 

If you have a dream of infedelity, then according to you, that would be a sin because as a man thinketh that is what is in the heart. Right, that is what you believe as the only source of thought and personality for you is the spirit?  I understand that is not a sin because the body (the brain) can make up passions, thoughts and desires that do not come from the spirit.  Now, if the spirit takes that in and makes it her own, then that is sin.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I was just scanning through this thread and got knocked off my chair by this statement.

1) No. No it isn't. Tourette's and other neurological disorders are NOT caused by unclean spirits or any other kind of possession, demon or otherwise. They're physiological disorders. Just like any other physiological disorder.

2) To continue to pick on Tourette's for a moment... There is NOTHING inherently wrong, evil, or unclean with Tourette's! Ya wanna start talking badly about psychopathy, then I might be tempted to get on board for even a moment, but Tourette's??? It's just a series of tics, that while distracting and frustrating at times for sure, but in no way predicts anything about the person themselves who has it. No more than a sprained ankle predicts a limp. People with Tourette's can be phenomenally holy, totally normal like most of us, or complete jerks. Their disorder has nothing to do with their personality, who they are, or how they think or choose to act.

Q

I agree with everything you are saying here and how you put it but (for everyone else reading these statements) understand there is a difference between how a person "chooses to act" and the actual action.  In this case, does the spirit initiate the motor or vocal tic or does the body?  This is why Tourrette's is such a good example of this concept.  Most would agree it is not something evil or good chosen by the spirit, it is just what the body does in that condition.

 

Just like there was a difference between the Apostles desire to stay and watch and pray vs falling asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane.  A small percentage of people that have Tourette's have coprolalia, a vocal tic in which there is compulsive profanity.  Even though the profanity is expressed, I agree that that could be different than what is the true personality of that person, like you said, it has nothing to do with their personality.  And the way to appreciate that is to fully understand that their are traits of the body and their are traits of the spirit and the spirit doesn't always win out in that battle and that is true for all of us to some degree. Only God really knows the situations and circumstances that are insurmountable just like not telling the Apostles that they sinned because they could not stay awake in the garden.

[Seminarysnoozer]

My first point:

 

I think you opposition to my first point is not explained by you post.  I am trying to understand why you think there is - in the final scheme of things - reason to believe having the experience of a body of flesh a bad thing with no hope of ever having eternal value from the experience.  I am inclined to believe you miss read and misunderstood my first point.  But perhaps I have not understood you opposition to such a thought and that you really believe a body of flesh and bones is an evil curse from which the aggregate result is unconditionally and inevitability bad.

I played soccer in college.  We often would have a practice game with a team from another division before our "real" game later in the week.  The benefit from that game is to make sure we are working together as a team and we can identify our weaknesses before facing our real opponent.  We took it as a learning experience.  Even though it was a learning experience to have this practice game we still didn't want the practice game opponent to win.  We tried to win the practice game as we would any game.  It would be silly to say, "lets let the practice team win because we are trying to learn from them".  I may even learn something from the opposing team that I could make my own, "I liked how they played that set piece, lets see if we can do the same thing."

 

Also, from that practice game, our coach was able to see who was ready to play in the real game later that week. Even if we lost the practice game, the benefits are the same; we identified weaknesses and the coach can see who is ready to play in the real game.  The actual score of the game is not so important as the real purpose of the game.  Whether the body is ahead in that struggle between body and spirit is not as important as whether we learn from the experience and that God can use that struggle as a test to understand our true desires -  to be carnally minded vs spiritually minded.

 

We can learn from this stewardship that we have with the mortal body without giving into it. These are not mutually exclusive ideas.  I can oppose the body and by doing so learn from it.  The aggregrate result of not taking in carnal traits is a positive thing. To bridle the passions of the body, to become master over it, is a positive thing. I don't have to let the body take a natural course to let it be a positive experience.  There is a positive result in opposing its natural tendencies.  There may be traits that I want to take in as my own, such as empathy and the desire for family. They are not mine until my spirit recognizes my weakness or deficiency and learns to like that thing, then I can take that trait from the body and desire it without desiring all the ones that are defined as the "enemy to God".

[Seminarysnoozer]

@Just_A_Guy

 

Aussie wasn't being harsh at all.  Addiction has two facets, but as I pointed out earlier, everything starts in the mind.  Remember that chemical addiction has two components: physical and psychological.  It's the psychological part that is mental and everything mental goes with us.  Everything single thing we ever thought or felt goes with us.  Your feelings and desires go with you, so if you have an uncontrollable urge to tweak, you'll still have that urge. 

 

Reread what was posted by Aussie.  We don't lose our desires for good or bad when we die.  That is church doctrine.  It isn't much simpler than that.

That is a church doctrine but that is in reference to what the spirit desires, we commonly call that "desires of the heart".  Where you are wrong is that not everything that is "mental" is spiritual. We are dual natured.  One nature from the body (the brain) the other from the spirit, while in this life. It is what is taken in by the spirit that will be carried onto the next life.  All the good and bad desires of the heart is what is carried through.  The mistake though, is to think that all desires are from the spirit alone. 

 

When you want to fast on fast Sunday but you get hungry which desire is from where.  If you want to say it is all from the spirit as it all "originates" in the mind, then you would have to say that the person who becomes hungry during fast Sunday does not really have the desire to fast and therefore their fast is not done with true intentions.  They want to fast but they really don't.  That is fixed by understanding that passions come from two sources, the body (the brain and all of its connections and hormonal influence etc) and the spirit (which is quiet and hard to detect in this life and defaults to the back seat in most people).  The spirit is willing but the body is weak.   The body is weak, meaning it can't follow through with the spirit's direction.

 

If you had a dream one night that you killed someone, do you have to repent?  Or a dream that you cheated on your spouse, do you have to repent?  If you had a dream that you cheated on your spouse and then you died while in your sleep, does that "feeling", that mental thought, go with you to the next life?

[The Folk Prophet]

Or a dream that you cheated on your spouse, do you have to repent?

 

Yes.

[Traveler]

I played soccer in college.  We often would have a practice game with a team from another division before our "real" game later in the week.  The benefit from that game is to make sure we are working together as a team and we can identify our weaknesses before facing our real opponent.  We took it as a learning experience.  Even though it was a learning experience to have this practice game we still didn't want the practice game opponent to win.  We tried to win the practice game as we would any game.  It would be silly to say, "lets let the practice team win because we are trying to learn from them".  I may even learn something from the opposing team that I could make my own, "I liked how they played that set piece, lets see if we can do the same thing."

 

Also, from that practice game, our coach was able to see who was ready to play in the real game later that week. Even if we lost the practice game, the benefits are the same; we identified weaknesses and the coach can see who is ready to play in the real game.  The actual score of the game is not so important as the real purpose of the game.  Whether the body is ahead in that struggle between body and spirit is not as important as whether we learn from the experience and that God can use that struggle as a test to understand our true desires -  to be carnally minded vs spiritually minded.

 

We can learn from this stewardship that we have with the mortal body without giving into it. These are not mutually exclusive ideas.  I can oppose the body and by doing so learn from it.  The aggregrate result of not taking in carnal traits is a positive thing. To bridle the passions of the body, to become master over it, is a positive thing. I don't have to let the body take a natural course to let it be a positive experience.  There is a positive result in opposing its natural tendencies.  There may be traits that I want to take in as my own, such as empathy and the desire for family. They are not mine until my spirit recognizes my weakness or deficiency and learns to like that thing, then I can take that trait from the body and desire it without desiring all the ones that are defined as the "enemy to God".

 

I disagree with your premise as well as your conclusion.  Bridling one's passions is not in any way the same as not having any passions.  In the engineering world it is using a lesser force through a tool to control a greater force.  The bridle in a horse's mouth in intended such that by applying just a little force in the horse's mouth we are able to control the greater force than ourselves of the horse.  We use the same principle with power steering in cars and even breaks on a wide variety of vehicles. 

 

A bridal is not intended to do away with the force of the horse likewise the gas peddle in your car is not to keep the engine from contributing its power but rather allows the driver to intelligently use the force for benefit.  The power of horses and car is not what is evil - it is all in the spirit of the operator that abuses the power that they are given.  Blaming a car for hitting a wall and declaring the driver pure goodness; that sometimes a faulty car may have some merit under some very uncommon certain cases - but then to demand that is always the case whenever a car hits a wall - well I think that you do not really know very much about drivers or cars.  Or as a driver of a car - I really do not have any responsibility as to what the car I am driving does - it is the car's fault????

[Seminarysnoozer]

I disagree with your premise as well as your conclusion.  Bridling one's passions is not in any way the same as not having any passions.  In the engineering world it is using a lesser force through a tool to control a greater force.  The bridle in a horse's mouth in intended such that by applying just a little force in the horse's mouth we are able to control the greater force than ourselves of the horse.  We use the same principle with power steering in cars and even breaks on a wide variety of vehicles. 

 

A bridal is not intended to do away with the force of the horse likewise the gas peddle in your car is not to keep the engine from contributing its power but rather allows the driver to intelligently use the force for benefit.  The power of horses and car is not what is evil - it is all in the spirit of the operator that abuses the power that they are given.  Blaming a car for hitting a wall and declaring the driver pure goodness; that sometimes a faulty car may have some merit under some very uncommon certain cases - but then to demand that is always the case whenever a car hits a wall - well I think that you do not really know very much about drivers or cars.  Or as a driver of a car - I really do not have any responsibility as to what the car I am driving does - it is the car's fault????

Why do you have to have someone or something to blame?  Have you not heard of dying from natural causes.  If lightning strikes a person and kills them, who are you going to blame? The lightning?  The lightning killed and yet there is nothing to lay blame on.  How can that be?  In your world everything has to be caused by something or someone in charge.  It doesn't!  This is a fallen world, a corrupt world.  That is what happens in a corrupt world.  There are acts of "nature" that kill, harm and destroy.  If one dies from a virus, does the virus get punished, do we blame the virus?  If I pass onto my daughter a gene that kills her at a young age, who is to blame?  Why would you be troubled by blaming certain things on act of "nature" and yet extra-corpeal things one would have no trouble blaming the act on nothing, it is just "nature".  Our physical body is natural, it is nature, by definition.  

 

A car and a driver is a poor example because the car has no ability to drive or direct itself and act for itself.  A horse and bridal is a little better example.  If the horse is not under control and stomps on someone and kills them, whose fault is it?   It depends, was the horse trained well enough?  Did the rider do something wrong?  Did the rider direct the horse to stomp on someone?  Has the rider been trained well enough to know what to do?  Is the horse wild?  All those variables as it pertains to the body and spirit, God knows and can judge. The inability to comprehend this situation comes from such a strong belief that the body does not generate any passions or desires of itself.  If you want to say that the body has no natural instincts in and of itself, that it cannot generate spontaneous thoughts or passions then fine, use the example of the car and driver.  But then you are ignoring the teachings of the prophets that tell us otherwise, that we are a dual being with two natures.

 

But why are you trying to say that I am claiming where the fault should be placed?  The discussion was never about who or what should be blammed.  Only that it is possible, view the many examples I have given, in which we would agree that the spirit is not responsible for the actions of the body.   If my 90 year old grandmother who has Alzheimers gets up in church and claims that she wishes she could have Joseph Smith's baby, is that a sin?   Was that the injured brain making that statement or my grandmother's spirit?  Could that only come out that way if it has to be generated by the spirit alone? 

 

What if someone was slipped a drug in their drink at a party and because of the drug they slept with someone and became pregnant out of wedlock, there was no evidence that the woman had fought off the advances of the person. Who's sin was that?  The woman had sex out of wedlock - is that not a sin?  How could the body have acted without the spirit directing it?  If only the spirit directs action then that person became pregnant under the direction of the spirit. There is no dilemna if one understands that the body can act on its own, it has its own default nature. There are some things that are acts of nature. 

 

When my body kills off bacteria in my stomach, do I need to repent of the millions of deaths I have caused of God's creation?  I am sure, everyone would say that is ridiculous.  But in your world, your spirit is ultimately responsible for every act of the body.  At this very moment your body is killing and killing, over and over again.  At least be assured that I wouldn't blame your spirit for such evil acts. Did the Apostles sin or not when they fell asleep in the Garden?  Was it because their spirit was not willing?  Even when their spirit was willing it still happened.  So what is controlling what?  I think you should rethink who is driving what. 

 

A better metaphor might be a plane directed by a pilot and a co-pilot who oppose each other.  They both have their hands on the controls.  If the pilot lets go the co-pilot takes over.  If the spirit is not sought then the natural drive takes over (the co-pilot) but the natural man is an enemy to God.

[Traveler]

Why do you have to have someone or something to blame?  Have you not heard of dying from natural causes.  If lightning strikes a person and kills them, who are you going to blame? The lightning?  The lightning killed and yet there is nothing to lay blame on.  How can that be?  In your world everything has to be caused by something or someone in charge.  It doesn't!  This is a fallen world, a corrupt world.  That is what happens in a corrupt world.  There are acts of "nature" that kill, harm and destroy.  If one dies from a virus, does the virus get punished, do we blame the virus?  If I pass onto my daughter a gene that kills her at a young age, who is to blame?  Why would you be troubled by blaming certain things on act of "nature" and yet extra-corpeal things one would have no trouble blaming the act on nothing, it is just "nature".  Our physical body is natural, it is nature, by definition.  

 

A car and a driver is a poor example because the car has no ability to drive or direct itself and act for itself.  A horse and bridal is a little better example.  If the horse is not under control and stomps on someone and kills them, whose fault is it?   It depends, was the horse trained well enough?  Did the rider do something wrong?  Did the rider direct the horse to stomp on someone?  Has the rider been trained well enough to know what to do?  Is the horse wild?  All those variables as it pertains to the body and spirit, God knows and can judge. The inability to comprehend this situation comes from such a strong belief that the body does not generate any passions or desires of itself.  If you want to say that the body has no natural instincts in and of itself, that it cannot generate spontaneous thoughts or passions then fine, use the example of the car and driver.  But then you are ignoring the teachings of the prophets that tell us otherwise, that we are a dual being with two natures.

 

But why are you trying to say that I am claiming where the fault should be placed?  The discussion was never about who or what should be blammed.  Only that it is possible, view the many examples I have given, in which we would agree that the spirit is not responsible for the actions of the body.   If my 90 year old grandmother who has Alzheimers gets up in church and claims that she wishes she could have Joseph Smith's baby, is that a sin?   Was that the injured brain making that statement or my grandmother's spirit?  Could that only come out that way if it has to be generated by the spirit alone? 

 

What if someone was slipped a drug in their drink at a party and because of the drug they slept with someone and became pregnant out of wedlock, there was no evidence that the woman had fought off the advances of the person. Who's sin was that?  The woman had sex out of wedlock - is that not a sin?  How could the body have acted without the spirit directing it?  If only the spirit directs action then that person became pregnant under the direction of the spirit. There is no dilemna if one understands that the body can act on its own, it has its own default nature. There are some things that are acts of nature. 

 

When my body kills off bacteria in my stomach, do I need to repent of the millions of deaths I have caused of God's creation?  I am sure, everyone would say that is ridiculous.  But in your world, your spirit is ultimately responsible for every act of the body.  At this very moment your body is killing and killing, over and over again.  At least be assured that I wouldn't blame your spirit for such evil acts. Did the Apostles sin or not when they fell asleep in the Garden?  Was it because their spirit was not willing?  Even when their spirit was willing it still happened.  So what is controlling what?  I think you should rethink who is driving what. 

 

A better metaphor might be a plane directed by a pilot and a co-pilot who oppose each other.  They both have their hands on the controls.  If the pilot lets go the co-pilot takes over.  If the spirit is not sought then the natural drive takes over (the co-pilot) but the natural man is an enemy to God.

You are making much to do about nothing.  If you are driving a car and apply the breaks and instead of breaking the car horn honks - then yes the resulting accident is a faulty car.  I am sorry you have such hatred of you body.  Though my body is rather old - it has served me well and brought a great deal of joy, made a decent living for me and my family. 

 

True that under unusual and critical stress - while serving in the military and having not sleep for 72 hours my body shut down at a rather critical time and I was our for over 24 hours and could not be awakened.  After 40 years of marriage my heart still skips a beat when my wife whispers she loves me.  Sadly on my bicycle rides I get passed by other cyclists much more often than I pass somebody anymore but I still enjoy drafting on flats and cranking up a 13% grade. 

 

I have ran into others that like you hate their bodies and can't wait to be rid of it.  I do not know why you got such a faulty one but my suggestion is to quit complaining about it, take supper good care of it - and make the best of it you can.  Try a different view - like your body is a sacred temple to be taken care of - may help.  It helps me  :)   I would also suggest that if you think you are the natural enemy of G-d as long as you have a body that there is more of a problem than just your body.  It may change if you change your view a little to be thankful for your body that G-d gives you that is in his image and likeness.  Spread cheer and happiness by smiling and while you use your body to serve others.

[Aussie3]

So if it is all just physical illness then why all the paranormal activity that I and others have witnessed that I could write a book about in regards to my daughter and other suffers?

 

What about the numerous other people suffering schizophrenia I have spoken with who tell me the same things ie:  that they are possessed by evil / unclean spirits?

 

My daughter has been telling me for seven years that she is possessed and haunted by evil / unclean spirits? with horrific nightmares and paranormal activity to go with it??

 

What about the man who was healed from schizophrenia who wrote a book about schizophrenia and said that he was possessed by evil and unclean spirits and they were the one's that mainly hung around his family line?

 

What about the FIRST MIRACLE of this dispensation Newel K Knight. He felt sick and afflicted by an unclean / evil spirit and Joseph Smith cast it out of him???

 

By saying that evil and unclean spirits have nothing at all to do with illnesses you are going against many teachings of our prophets and church leaders, not to mention Jesus Christ himself. I know that you are scared and don't want to think that billions and billions of unclean and evil spirits are in your homes and are causing more problems for the already sick and afflicted but they are.

 

They are also causing sickness, illness and all manner of problems in the world. Father's or mother's who are addicted to porn and view it on there computers, phones, TV's are opening the doors and saying come in and possess my young son or daughter and destroy my whole family.

 

Jeffery R Holland

 

"Prayerfully and Responsibly Consider the advice they give" He could never go against BIG PHARMA it would bring on the fulfilling of the Gentiles to soon.  Considering 12 antipsychotics a day, to me was not a consideration for my daughter. After two years of the medical model with NO RESULTS she could still hear the evil spirits and see them, not to mention the nightmares. The Holy Spirit was telling me that these drugs do more harm than good. I spent so much time the first year on my knees that I still have permanent bruising.  

 

Antipsychotics inhibit the brains God given flow of Dopamine. When a person goes off the medication or reduces it they go straight back into a psychosis and straight back to hospital because the brain can not deal with the God given flow of dopamine anymore. The brain has become super sensitive to the God given release of dopamine and this causes real problems. However evil spirits love it. 

[Quin]

When I've worked in the 3rd world, I do often use the phrase evil/unclean spirits...

Soap kills them. Wash your hands before eating, wash wounds before dressing them.

Anti seizure meds are armor against them, strengthening your daughters spirit so that she can fight off the spirits before they make her fall down. They only work for your daughter, and a few like her. For others, they will invite evil spirits in. THIS dose, too much and it will overwhelm her own spirit. Like wearing armor that is too heavy. It needs to be just right. Light enough for her to carry, strong enough to ward off the seizures.

People are SMART.

But we're also products of our environments.

Describe microbes, and you've just used the same description your patient uses for spirits (can't see them, powerful, can make you sick, do this strange thing to kill them &/or fight them off. Strange being relative. A lot of indigenous religious practices are anti microbial. Course, a few have been clearly mistranslated. Boiled cows urine is a wicked strong antiseptic. It's been used for thousands of years on most continents. But there's this ONE region of Africa that uses cow poop. With wicked high mortality rates, because cow poop is full of microbes... Instead of antimicrobial).

So when I'm in regions that science might penetrate in 50 years... I use terminology that means the same durn thing, but that makes sense to the people I'm working with.

Q

[Aussie3]

Yeah Quin I haven't heard about that one if your not having a go at me (ha ha) but I am aware of the toxic brain problem and other toxic environment factors, especially the problem with our food, heavy medals and so forth.

 

she did not eat properly for almost a year and lost a lot of weight and because she was depressed she ate the wrong foods ie: diet coke with aspartame. Not good! I am aware that her problem is a two facet or multi-facet problem but evil and unclean spirits are very much a part of it. Oh and according to Brigham Young unclean spirits spread a lot of diseases as well.

 

Brigham must of been talking about air borne diseases as well! Makes sense it there are billions and billions and billions of uncleans spirits everywhere.

 

Thanks!

[Ratbag]

Aussie is right.  I've looked into this quite extensively.  I'm amazed by how many LDS are taken in by the wisdom of the world.  This single cleverest thing Satan has done is to convince the world that he doesn't really exist.  What is so pathetic is that he has also convinced the majority of LDS that al he can do is influence people.  No one really gets possessed, and if they do, it is rare AND that person is inherently evil to begin with.  He has also convinced the LDS that he doesn't do anything to cause illness or death.  All I can say to that is PUH-LEEZE people!  For once, before you start spouting the wisdom of the world, before you close off your minds, do some research in the Journal of Discourses and History of the Church, and other articles.  There are so many references to possession, casting out of evil spirits and devils causing illness that it would literally take hours just to list them all.

 

OK, let's start off with the first instalment about illnesses. 

 

We are taught in church that Satan has power over and can manipulate the elements of this earth.  Some good examples are when Moses had Aaron cast down his staff, turning it into a snake.  Pharaoh's sorcerers did the same thing, and through the power of Satan, their staffs also turned into snakes.  The sorcerers did the same things that Moses subsequently did:  turned water into blood, and created frogs and lice.  (Exodus Ch. 9)

 

Remember what happened to Job?

 

"So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown."  (Job 2:7)

 

Anyone know what causes boils?  According to WebMD, a boil is an infection usually caused by the staphylococcal bacteria.  Hmmm.  Looks to me like Satan can manipulate bacteria as well as a wooden staff, frogs and lice.

 

From Brigham Young:

 

"I have formerly spoken about the spirits overcoming the flesh; the body of flesh, is what the devil has power over.  God gave Lucifer power, influence, mastery, and rule, to a certain extent, to control the life pertaining to the elements composing the body, and the spirit which God places in the body becomes intimately connected with it, and is of course more or less affected by it." (JD 3:277, JD 5:374, JD 7:356)  (Which is why addictions are carried with us after death.)

 

An incident from the life of Joseph Smith:

 

"I will relate one circumstance that took place at Far West, in  a house that Joseph had purchased, which had been formerly occupied as a public house by some wicked people.  A short time after he got into it, one of his children was taken very sick; he laid his hands upon the child, when it got better; as soon as he went out of doors, the child was taken sick again; he gain laid his hands upon it, so that it again recovered.  This occurred several times, when Joseph inquired of the Lord what it all meant; then he had an open vision, and saw the devil in person, who contended with Joseph, face to face, for some time.  he said it was his house, it belonged to him, and Joseph had no right there.  Then Joseph rebuked Satan in the name of the Lord, and he departed and touched the child no more." (Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, 269-70)

 

From the BYU website, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Pg. 380:

 

"Satan gained power to tempt those who are accountable to do evil, to communicate with individuals to teach them things (usually but not always lies), to possess their bodies, to foster illness and disease, and to cause mortal death."

 

Finally, from Brigham Young:

 

"You never felt a pain and ache, or felt disagreeable, or uncomfortable in your bodies and minds, but what an evil spirit was present causing it.  Do you realize that the ague, the fever, the chills, the severe pain the in the head, the pleurisy, or any pain in the system, from the crown of the head to the soles of the feet, is put there by the devil?  You do not realize this, do you?

I say but little about this matter, because I do not want you to realize it.  When you have the rheumatism, do you realize that the devil put that upon you?  No, but you say, "I got wet, caught cold, and thereby got the rheumatism."  The spirits that afflict us and plant disease in our bodies, pain in the system, and finally death, have control over us so far as the flesh is concerned." (JD 4:133)

 

The reason Satan can plant illness in our bodies is because he can control the elements of the earth and we are created from these same elements.

 

"Those natural elements that make up the physical earth are sometimes referred to in the scriptures as dust.  Thus Adam was created from the dust of the ground meaning the physical body which he received was created from the elements of the earth.  Similarly all men are created from the dust of the earth; that is, the elements organized into a mortal body are assembled together through the birth process."  (Mormon Doctrine, 209)

 

Do I need to go on and on and on and on and on and on and really, really, really, really belabour the point?  I can if you want, but please, do some research on the topic.  I'm not saying that all illnesses are caused by evil spirits.  People do stupid things that make them sick.  People are abused, injured, catch colds, etc., however, in many cases, illness, both mental and physical are caused by evil spirits.

[Just_A_Guy]

So if it is all just physical illness then why all the paranormal activity that I and others have witnessed that I could write a book about in regards to my daughter and other suffers?

. . . .

 

Jeffery R Holland

 

"Prayerfully and Responsibly Consider the advice they give" He could never go against BIG PHARMA it would bring on the fulfilling of the Gentiles to soon.  

Before I answer your question, please tell me--am I free to question your integrity as cavalierly as you have just questioned Elder Holland's?

[Seminarysnoozer]

You are making much to do about nothing.  If you are driving a car and apply the breaks and instead of breaking the car horn honks - then yes the resulting accident is a faulty car.  I am sorry you have such hatred of you body.  Though my body is rather old - it has served me well and brought a great deal of joy, made a decent living for me and my family. 

 

True that under unusual and critical stress - while serving in the military and having not sleep for 72 hours my body shut down at a rather critical time and I was our for over 24 hours and could not be awakened.  After 40 years of marriage my heart still skips a beat when my wife whispers she loves me.  Sadly on my bicycle rides I get passed by other cyclists much more often than I pass somebody anymore but I still enjoy drafting on flats and cranking up a 13% grade. 

 

I have ran into others that like you hate their bodies and can't wait to be rid of it.  I do not know why you got such a faulty one but my suggestion is to quit complaining about it, take supper good care of it - and make the best of it you can.  Try a different view - like your body is a sacred temple to be taken care of - may help.  It helps me  :)   I would also suggest that if you think you are the natural enemy of G-d as long as you have a body that there is more of a problem than just your body.  It may change if you change your view a little to be thankful for your body that G-d gives you that is in his image and likeness.  Spread cheer and happiness by smiling and while you use your body to serve others.

It is sad that what you are claiming comes from the body is actually spirituality.  The opportunity comes from having a body and in that thing it is positive but the lesson learned is a spiritual matter. The positive things achieved and accomplished and experienced come from listening to your spiritual influences. 

 

I am not sure why you think I "hate" my body or complain about it.  I have never said such a thing.

 

I am not my body.  I am a child of God.  My body is a temple and I treat it as such.  I played several years of college level soccer, I play several instruments, I have received degrees of higher education and I have given birth to 4 beautiful children.  I have worked in the medical field for several decades and am exposed to the effects of a faulty body almost daily, realizing the faults of the body have nothin to do with the character of the child of God spirit that inhabits such a body.

 

If anything I have expressed an appreciation for the natural dangers inherit to the body but not hatred.  Just like the power of the ocean, the body does what it was designed to do.  If it is appreciated and respected then it can be a positive experience.  The appreciation and respect and use of the body in a proper maner is a spiritual act, not a physical one. Those animal passions and desires can be bridled if there is sufficient effort placed into doing so.  If not, it remains wild and does what it was designed to do while in this world, be an enemy to God.  Everyone's body is different in its relative influence and effect it has over the spirit.

 

If anything, I have an appreciation for how far we have fallen as spirit beings of our Heavenly Father to this current existence. How do you compare your current abilities to one that has spent eons in the presense of Heavenly Father and matured fully?  You would like to think that it is similar, that your spirit has similar capacity and ability while here as it did in the previous life and compared to the life to come.  How far did we Fall?   In other words, compared to your previous personality, traits and abilities, how does your current "self" compare to that?  My statements are similar to what Moses learned about our current condition.  When Moses said that "we are nothing", was he "complaining" too, or did he just have eternal perspective? I am sure your perception of his statement is the same.

 

To really ponder this issue, draw two lines with spirit on one end and body on the other;

 

Spirit ---------------------------------------------------------------- Body

Spirit ---------------------------------------------------------------- Body

 

On the top line circle the influence that each had while in the pre-mortal world (the circle should be over the word Spirit as we were 100% spirit).  Now, in comparison to that set of characteristics, on the next line, where do you think we currently are?  I know you would like to think that our traits are closer to the spirit side then they are the body but they are not.  We have fallen far, not little.  Wherever you put that mark on the second line reflects how far you think we are different from our pre-mortal self.  Speaking for myself, I can tell you that my current characteristics, traits and abilities are no where close to what I would perceive a spirit child of God who has spent eons with Heavenly Father reaching maturity, learning all there is to learn from a secular stand point from our Heavenly Father compared to now.  For me, the mark on the second line would be very close to the body even when I consider myself a spiritually minded individual and strive to do what is right, the spirit is willing but the body is weak.

 

Does Elder Bednar hate the body when he says; "The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies." ?

 

Listen carefully to the prophet David O. McKay; "It’s open to you—two ways are open. One leading to the spirit, the testimony of the spirit that is in harmony with the spirit of creation, the Holy Ghost. The spirit of the Lord animates and enlivens every spirit, in the church or out of it. ... Men who are not within that radiation can’t hear it, but you hear it, you hear that voice and you are entitled to that voice and the guidance of it and it will come to you if you do your part. But if you yield to your own instincts, your own desires, your own passions, and pride yourself into thinking and planning and scheming, and think you are getting away with it, things will become dark. You have accomplished your gratification and passion and appetite, but you deny the spirit; you cut off the communication between your spirit and the spirit of the Holy Ghost.

When God becomes the center of our being, we become conscious of a new aim in life—spiritual attainment. Physical possessions are no longer the chief goal in life. To indulge, nourish, and delight the body as any animal may do is no longer the chief end of mortal existence. God is not viewed from the standpoint of what we may get from him, but rather from what we may give him.

Only in the complete surrender of our inner life may we rise above the selfish, sordid pull of nature. What the spirit is to the body, God is to the spirit. When the spirit leaves the body, it is lifeless, and when we eliminate God from our lives, spirituality languishes. …

… Let us resolve that from now on we are going to be men and women of higher and more sterling character, more conscious of our weaknesses, more kind and charitable toward the failings of others. Let us resolve that we shall practice more self-control in our homes; that we shall control our tempers, our feelings, and our tongues that they may not wander beyond the bounds of right and purity; that we shall do more seeking to develop the spiritual side of our lives, and realize how dependent we are upon God for success in this life."

 

When we follow the body's passions we cut off the communication from the Holy Ghost to our spirit - take it or leave it, from the prophet of God. As he counsels; "be conscious of our weaknesses".  You would prefer to chastise me for doing what the prophet states.   You would probably state that Moses was complaining when he said that man was nothing or think that Paul was complaining when he stated that our spirits are alive in Christ but we make our bodies dead.

[Aussie3]

Just-A-Guy, sorry if that is what you got from my blog but it was not at all my intention!

 

I received my own revelation from the spirit years ago after many tears and prayers to why more things are not discussed in the church or brought to light. The answer I received was that this is a very fallen Dangerous world with many Gadianton Robbers directing and leading it. We should not LOVE the WORLD and we are not of this World.

 

They control most things and have many followers, even members of our church. I don't think that the leaders of our church could reveal openly to society that a large portion of illnesses especially mental illnesses have evil and unclean spirit components to them. This could bring strong condemnation upon us.

 

Psychiatry (un measurable pseudo science) and big Pharma have made most people / society believe that there is not such thing as evil / unclean spirits. On the contrary if you even suggest anything remotely like evil / unclean spirits you are treated with CONTEMPT!

 

I'm not sure if you know anything about the end times and the fulfilling of the Gentles? This is when our church / Christian people possibly in a few short years are going to go through the worst persecution the world has ever seen in Gentle counties. It will make Rome will look like child's play

 

I am sure this will happen soon enough and I am sure the church leaders do not want this to happen prematurely. You know  before the Lord has set his hand again to gather his children from the four quarters of the earth ( the push on missionary work). That is why I say that I think that church leaders would avoid coming out against Psychotropics because of the psychos (Gadianton Robbers) that own and run Big Pharma and psychiatry. Nothing to do with his integrity at all. A very wonderful man! 

[Aussie3]

Dear Snoozer, in Traveler's defence I think that what he might be saying, it seems to me, is that he has always strived to do what is right and good in his life despite his bodily limitations? It seems that he is innately good?

 

Me for instance, I was brought up in low income, department of housing, single parent, alcoholism, very little education, no religion at all and all sorts of fights with neighbours, family and other issues.

 

However through all that and my mistakes I was still deeply spiritual, kind, caring and without envy of anyone. So when I joined the church I just tried to change and  improve upon the wrong things that society had taught me and the world had tried to  indoctrinate / condition me into thinking was right. 

 

This didn't take long thankfully because most of what the world taught me caused dissonance with in my soul. My body has physical problems but I don't ever blame it for my wrong or right decisions / choices? I really don't have a problem admitting that I am wrong and saying sorry when I am. 

 

I know my writing is not great because I could not read properly until I was 24 years old and could not punctuate (probably still can't) until I was about 28 years old. But I don't blame my body for my limitations. I think if I had been able to learn when other kids did, that these skills would be more refined?

 

However I don't blame my body for things like that or things like: Pride, arrogance, ignorance, envy, selfishness, hautiness, vanity, wrongful anger, hostility, wrongful judging, lusting etc. These all come from Satan's deception and our own character flaws that need to be overcome in this world.

 

They are Satan's tools to bind us and possess us with. But it is our character flaws for these Satanic ordinances / attributes / tools that we succumb too. We have been conditioned and indoctrinated in this world (from our birth) that Satan dominates, that these are natural and human / normal feelings.

 

 When one breaks the worldly conditioning that has taken place in them, they will be able to see Satan's dominion of this world in a whole different light. God Bless!

[Ratbag]

Snoozer-

 

You really do need to do a bit of research before you start spouting the wisdom of the world.  This took me no more than 10 minutes of searching to find the following talk by Hartman Rector, Jr.

 

 

...it is the spirit that becomes addicted to drugs, bad habits, and evil desires.  It is not just the physical body that is addicted, but the spirit also, which, of course, is the real you and me.  We are spirits just as God is a spirit.

 

Sometimes we make excuses for ourselves, when we do what we should not do or fall short of what we should have done.  We use such expressions as, "Oh! the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."  With such rationalizations we insinuate that it is completely our body's fault that we sin.  In my opinion, this is not true.  I believe the physical body is a very strong part of us and is of great benefit to us.  Among other reasons, it was given to us to help us overcome our addictions, bad habits, and evil desires.  The body is very obedient; generally speaking, it will do exactly what the spirit tells it to do.  So it is not the physical body that we are struggling with; it is the spirit we must bring into subjection.

Sometimes we seem to get the idea that in the spirit world, we will be completely different individuals; we will suddenly undergo a miraculous change in our character when we die.  But nothing could be further from the truth.  "We," our spirits, do not change at death; we are still the same.

 

Amulek plainly states that the "same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to posses your body in that eternal world."  So, we do not change just because we die.  If we are addicted to drugs, bad habits, or evil desires here upon the earth, we shall be addicted to the same things in the spirit world; if we are a "pill" or a "crank" or a liar here, we will still be a "pill" or a "crank" or a liar there. (Conference Report, Oct 1970, Pgs. 73-75)

Your college degrees have made you believe in the wisdom of the world.  You need filter what you learn through the spirit of discernment and weed out the garbage and wisdom of the world.

 

 

[Seminarysnoozer]

Snoozer-

 

You really do need to do a bit of research before you start spouting the wisdom of the world.  This took me no more than 10 minutes of searching to find the following talk by Hartman Rector, Jr.

 

Your college degrees have made you believe in the wisdom of the world.  You need filter what you learn through the spirit of discernment and weed out the garbage and wisdom of the world.

My understanding and quotes I have provided have all been from LDS sources, not my own understanding.

 

His talk is about when the addiction becomes sin.  Let me paraphrase and summarize what Hartmon Rector is saying; Sin is when the spirit also becomes addicted.  Note his words; "it is not just the physical body that is addicted..."  Which is exactly what I have been saying.  The problem is when the spirit takes on the characteristics of the body.  The body's "addiction" is not an issue.  It is only when the spirit that can make choices also becomes "addicted", that is the thing that is taken with us to the next world.  If it is "just" in the body then it is not sin and it is not a problem.  The body will do what it does.  Our test is a spiritual one, whether the spirit will take on the passions of the body or not.  I think you need to learn through the spirit of discernment and weed out the garbage of the wisdom of the world.  The phrase that you selectively cut off from the quote you gave right before the start of your selection reads "Resurrection is a process whereby after death the spirit returns and reunites with the body and they become again a living, immortal soul, immortal meaning not subject to death or separation. I believe it is primarily the spirit that sees, hears, feels, knows passion and desire;... "  Therefore he is only refering to the things that are carried with us to the next life.  He is not refering to the things that turn to dust upon death.  The important thoughts, passions, sights, sounds, desires etc. are the ones that are internalized to the spirit as that is who we really are and will carry through to the next life. I totally agree with Hartmon Rector when he says the struggle that we deal with is the spirit, because that is what we will carry with us and that is what we will be judged by, not the addictions of the body.  Remember he said it is not "just" the body that is addicted (when there is sin).  Read further on in the talk, he is talking about sin only.   Sin is when the spirit makes a choice.  There are passions from the body, i.e. - sexual drives, hunger, striving for power and control, domination, anger etc.  The sin is when the spirit adopts those as her own.  I agree with Hartmon Rector in that discussion.

 

Go ahead and quote a talk from 1970 and I will give you one from April 2013, Elder Bednar so that you have further understanding of this discussion beyond the general discussion available in 1970; "The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."

 

"We are here to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."  Elder Nelson 1985 (15 years after your quote); "If our faith be united in prayer that we may be edified together, I should like to speak about our quest for self-mastery. In so doing, I would converse as a loving father counseling one of my own children.

Before you can master yourself, my precious one, you need to know who you are. You consist of two parts—your physical body, and your spirit which lives within your body. You may have heard the expression “mind over matter.” That’s what I would like to talk about—but phrase it a little differently: “spirit over body.” That is self-mastery."

 

President Eyring 2008; "We all were taught by Elohim, the Father of our spirits. We loved Him and wanted to be like Him and to be with Him forever. He told us plainly what it would require for us to have that joy. We would have to receive a physical body, with all of the trials that would bring. We would be subject to illness and have within our bodies the processes which would finally lead to death. And our bodies would have in them powerful cravings for physical satisfaction."

 

Part of the discord I think comes from having different definitions of "addiction",  "Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (gambling) that can be pleasurable but the continued use of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work or relationships, or health. Users may not be aware that their behavior is out of control and causing problems for themselves and others.

The word addiction is used in several different ways. One definition describes physical addiction. This is a biological state in which the body adapts to the presence of a drug so that drug no longer has the same effect; this is known as tolerance. Because of tolerance, there is a biological reaction when the drug is withdrawn. Another form of physical addiction is the phenomenon of overreaction by the brain to drugs (or to cues associated with the drugs). An alcoholic walking into a bar, for instance, will feel an extra pull to have a drink because of these cues."

 

There is the "pull" from the body, then there is the choice made by the spirit.  At what point the line is crossed, the point at which the spirit takes on the characteristics of the body and it becomes a spiritual choice, God will judge that in any given person.  You and I cannot judge that, we cannot see the inner man like God can.   It is not 100% of the time a choice made by the spirit.  As even Hartmon Rector, Jr says "sometimes" it is. You and I cannot judge that in any given person.

[The Folk Prophet]

My understanding and quotes I have provided have all been from LDS sources, not my own understanding.

 

Correction. Your understanding and quotes have all been from your understanding of LDS sources.

[Ratbag]

Folk Prophet - Exactly! 

 

Snoozer, I might add that your understand is faulty and twists what was written out of context.  A general authority stood up in general conference and said that addictions go with you when you die.  It was published by the church and that makes it church doctrine  Bednar did not say that dual beings don't take their addictions with them. 

 

You are twisting things to suit your own agenda. 

[Just_A_Guy]

SS, is it your position that *no part* of addictions go with us into the eternal life?  Everyone keeps acting like that's your position, but I haven't really seen you come out and say it.  Can you please clarify?

 

 

Just-A-Guy, sorry if that is what you got from my blog but it was not at all my intention!

 

. . . .

 I don't think that the leaders of our church could reveal openly to society that a large portion of illnesses especially mental illnesses have evil and unclean spirit components to them. This could bring strong condemnation upon us.

 

Psychiatry (un measurable pseudo science) and big Pharma have made most people / society believe that there is not such thing as evil / unclean spirits. On the contrary if you even suggest anything remotely like evil / unclean spirits you are treated with CONTEMPT!

 

I'm not sure if you know anything about the end times and the fulfilling of the Gentles? This is when our church / Christian people possibly in a few short years are going to go through the worst persecution the world has ever seen in Gentle counties. It will make Rome will look like child's play

 

I am sure this will happen soon enough and I am sure the church leaders do not want this to happen prematurely. You know  before the Lord has set his hand again to gather his children from the four quarters of the earth ( the push on missionary work). That is why I say that I think that church leaders would avoid coming out against Psychotropics because of the psychos (Gadianton Robbers) that own and run Big Pharma and psychiatry.

 

I wasn't aware that general conference speakers were in the habit of trying to maintain worldly popularity.  Do you really think the Church fears BigPharma more than it fears BigMedia, BigPorn, BigFashion, BigPoliticalCorrectness, and so on?

 

Let's assume, for discussion's sake, that it does.  Let's assume that Elder Holland nevertheless wishes to help Church members who are suffering from what Babylon calls "mental illness".  Why would his discourse affirmatively and repeatedly encourage Church members to seek professional help?  Why does church policy also state "Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice."  Why would Elder Oaks, in another recent Conference talk specifically on priesthood healings, state:

 

The use of medical science is not at odds with our prayers of faith and our reliance on priesthood blessings. When a person requested a priesthood blessing, Brigham Young would ask, “Have you used any remedies?” To those who said no because “we wish the Elders to lay hands upon us, and we have faith that we shall be healed,” President Young replied: “That is very inconsistent according to my faith. If we are sick, and ask the Lord to heal us, and to do all for us that is necessary to be done, according to my understanding of the Gospel of salvation, I might as well ask the Lord to cause my wheat and corn to grow, without my plowing the ground and casting in the seed. It appears consistent to me to apply every remedy that comes within the range of my knowledge, and [then] to ask my Father in Heaven … to sanctify that application to the healing of my body.”

 

Of course we don’t wait until all other methods are exhausted before we pray in faith or give priesthood blessings for healing. In emergencies, prayers and blessings come first. Most often we pursue all efforts simultaneously.

 

And, what do you make of Elder Nelson's profession as a heart surgeon, which he maintained even after his ordination to the apostleship?  Under your logic, shouldn't he have just told the faithless Spencer W. Kimball to pray away his heart problem instead of performing surgery on the man?

 

The Church is not just fearfully, grudgingly silent about modern medical advances.  It openly praises them and adopts its members to avail themselves of them.  This notion that the Church would actually discourage medical treatments (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but for its fear of Big Pharma, becomes increasingly unlikely when you consider the number of other powerful individuals, institutions, and social movements that somehow manage to get offended every time a GA opens his mouth.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Folk Prophet - Exactly! 

 

Snoozer, I might add that your understand is faulty and twists what was written out of context.  A general authority stood up in general conference and said that addictions go with you when you die.  It was published by the church and that makes it church doctrine  Bednar did not say that dual beings don't take their addictions with them. 

 

You are twisting things to suit your own agenda. 

I don't disagree with that statement.  All I am saying is, 'What is meant by "addictions" in that context?  

 

Hartmon Rector was refering to sin, which is to say when the spirit takes on those addictions from the body.  The problem is that people also use the word "addictions" for the recurrent, natural tendencies of the body.  There is a difference.  I think you are wrong to clump those together when looking at Hartmon Rector's statements. He was purely talking about spiritual addictions, the desires of the heart.   Is it possible to have an addiction for something that is not the "desire of the heart"?  Absolutely!!! I think you are having a hard time understanding that possibility.

 

Is OCD a spiritual flaw?  If not, where are those compulsions and obsesions coming from? 

 

You want me to believe that every passion of the body whether it was subdued and mastered or not stays with us in the next life?  That would be a twist of the truth.  If a person remains with a broken heart and a contrite spirit she will gain rest from that struggle in the next life, it will not continue.  The battle will end.

 

If a person is a recovered alcoholic, they never drink an ounce of alcohol again in their life and yet when they walk by a bar there still is a drive, a passion, an urge to drink but they do not indulge that "physical addiction", they control it.  You would have me believe that despite them never acting on that physical addiction, an addiction is an addiction so it will carry with them into the next life?  Boloney. 

 

If a person has depression and their body says "sleep" all the time.   They do everything they can to overcome that physical drive, it doesn't matter?  That drive will continue with them into the next life?  Boloney!!

 

Even in the best of people, the body is not made perfect in this life.  I hate to break the news to you but this is true.  All of those imperfections do not necessarily continue on through the next life unless the spirit takes them in as self. 

 

We start out carnal in nature, the body rules the spirit.  When the spirit begins to rule the body, that is called "born again".  There is a change, as Alma describes, from the carnal nature to this spiritual nature.  That occurs when the spirit is winning the struggle between the carnal nature of the body vs spiritual drives of the spirit.  Yes, the body can become sanctified over time and there are less and less "carnal" drives when that occurs but within this life hardly anybody perfects the body to that point that all the carnal drives are gone. 

 

Mossiah 27; "25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

 26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God."

 

If there is no change, we all remain in our natural state, we remain with the drives of the body, carnal and fallen. President Ezra Taft Benson stated it this way: “In addition to the physical ordinance of baptism and the laying on of hands, one must be spiritually born again to gain exaltation and eternal life."  The way that we overcome this world is through Christ (not by getting rid of addictions of the body) ; 3 Nephi; " 20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not."  That is the spiritual rebirth that will allow a person to overcome the world and all of its corruption including the passions of the body, through Christ.

[Seminarysnoozer]

SS, is it your position that *no part* of addictions go with us into the eternal life?  Everyone keeps acting like that's your position, but I haven't really seen you come out and say it.  Can you please clarify?

 

 

 

I wasn't aware that general conference speakers were in the habit of trying to maintain worldly popularity.  Do you really think the Church fears BigPharma more than it fears BigMedia, BigPorn, BigFashion, BigPoliticalCorrectness, and so on?

 

Let's assume, for discussion's sake, that it does.  Let's assume that Elder Holland nevertheless wishes to help Church members who are suffering from what Babylon calls "mental illness".  Why would his discourse affirmatively and repeatedly encourage Church members to seek professional help?  Why does church policy also state "Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice."  Why would Elder Oaks, in another recent Conference talk specifically on priesthood healings, state:

 

 

And, what do you make of Elder Nelson's profession as a heart surgeon, which he maintained even after his ordination to the apostleship?  Under your logic, shouldn't he have just told the faithless Spencer W. Kimball to pray away his heart problem instead of performing surgery on the man?

 

The Church is not just fearfully, grudgingly silent about modern medical advances.  It openly praises them and adopts its members to avail themselves of them.  This notion that the Church would actually discourage medical treatments (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but for its fear of Big Pharma, becomes increasingly unlikely when you consider the number of other powerful individuals, institutions, and social movements that somehow manage to get offended every time a GA opens his mouth.

Thanks for asking it that way.  My answer is of course, the part of the "addiction" that is of the spirit stays with a person. 

 

Again, I think the hard thing to grasp for most is that we are dual natured, represented by the body and the spirit.  They are not one in the same while in this life.  Elder Bednar explains this well in quotes already given.  If they are not the same is it possible that one of those natures has a drive that the other does not?  Yes, they are different, they are not one in the same.  When one has the simple idea that all thoughts, desires and passions are spiritual in nature then they cannot concieve how it is that it wouldn't continue that way in the next life.  The problem is in our inability to determine in any given individual what is the passion of the body vs the spirit. 

 

Can the spirit overcome all the passions of the body while in this life?  No.  Nobody is perfect.  It will be completely overcome for a person who remains humble, with a broken heart and contrite spirit, through Christ and upon that person's death and resurrection.  We can do better in controlling the passions of the body as we learn to be spiritually minded but the control is not 100%, I still get hungry on fast Sunday, the Apostles still fell asleep in the garden. 

 

If all one is calling "addictions" only the things that the spirit has taken in as it's own, the "desire of the heart", then yes that will continue.  I would challenge anyone who thinks they can judge in any given person what the desire of their heart is.  That is the danger of making a blanket statement that all "addictions" will continue onto the next life. A person can die with depression and yet their spirit is not depressed.  A person can die with a compulsion to gamble and yet their spirit does not want to gamble.  etc. In others, their depression turns to despair, the spirit takes in the depression as it's own.  In others the gambling becomes a love and the spirit takes it in as its own passion.  Just because it is done does not define whether the spirit has given into the passion or not in their heart.  

[Seminarysnoozer]

Correction. Your understanding and quotes have all been from your understanding of LDS sources.

You are right, thanks for that correction.