CrimsonKairos Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 It helps that God's opinions are always right. B) Quote
Jason Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 It helps that God's opinions are always right. B)Indeed. And they are never found in written form. Quote
CrimsonKairos Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Except for that whole "tablets of stone" at Sinai deal...something about God writing the words with His finger. Quote
Traveler Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Hi everyone! What evidences do we have of the Great Apostasy? What I can think of is this. The apostles died and after this many heresies arose such as Gnosticism and Montanism. From nearly the beginning the church was divided. Catholics claim that it wasn't but in fact Catholicism itself didn't exist until Constantine legalized Christianity around 315 CE. Then around 1050 or so CE we have Eastern Orthodoxy splitting off of Catholicism. This is not to mention all of the heresies that existed before this time. There is a huge list of them! Christianity never was one after the apostles died. To me, this is just evidence of the Great Apostasy. What do you think and what other evidence can you think of?I would point to the one era in civilization when Christians rose to power that came to be known as "The Dark Ages". Many historians feel that western civilization did not just stop but turned backwards during the dominance of what is known as Christian thought - until the time generally known as the renascence.I also find it interesting that Christians of the Dark Ages opposed the accumulation of knowledge of any kind (not just Science) - including scripture. For example the individual responsible for the first Translation of the Bible into English was burned at the stake for his efforts - This was not by the Pagans but by the Christians. Even today this era of darkness has been such and embarrassment there are now efforts to rewrite history. In particular who was responsible for burning the library of Alexandria.The Traveler Quote
prisonchaplain Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 I know of no where in LDS beliefs where it is said that one can not receive inspiration from God or through the Holy Ghost for those over whom they have stewardship. I believe they can, both LDS and Non LDS.Ben RainesBut what about "the gift of prophecy," as referenced in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14? In the OT even a donkey prophesied. However, in the NT, the gift is authored by the Holy Spirit, and is given in the context of church. Perhaps you are right, but it raises a lot of questions to suggest that the Holy Ghost's gift of prophecy operates regularly outside the parameters of the restored church. Quote
Traveler Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 I have also experienced the gift of prophecy, when God's Spirit gave me words to speak to the faithful (though I do not call myself a prophet). I think you should re-think this statement. John tells us in the Book of Revelation that a testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy - not the telling of things to come. You may not be "The Prophet" but you are close to being "a prophet"The Traveler Quote
a-train Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 I find it interesting that in light of the acheivements of humankind throughout the past few centuries, even the unbelievers concede that the period of human history immediately following the taking of the Church 'into the wilderness' can be designated 'The Dark Ages' wherein the period is characterized as one of lacking in literary, scientific, spiritual, and/or social advancement. Although our modern understanding of the period has been revolutionized by 20th century research to reveal that the period was not as 'dark' in the terms mentioned, it is noteworthy that one of the main characters responsible for the introduction of the appallation was Francesco Petrarca who in the 1330s wrote that the bulk of the first millenium was characterized by a great void of secular advancement due to the oppressive dominance of religious zeal. It was the later Protestant Reformationists who used the term of the humanist to describe the Catholic corruption of the period. The 17th and 18th century advocates of the 'Age of Enlightenment' loved this 'Dark Ages' terminology and used it once again as did the Petrarch to pejoratively describe the religious, superstitious, and otherwise non scientific, or illogical paradigms of the age. Our modern scholars have now decided to utilize the term neutrally only to describe a lack of our own understanding of the age due to historical paucity. Regardless, it is well accepted in most circles that 'Mormonism' has come into existance and has flourished in a period of world history marked by unprecedented advancements in virtually every facet of the human condition. With such blessing comes also the potential for greater criminality and evil, for we have also seen a great deal of that in this modern age. While the world notes the wonderful blessings of our modern age of developement, the LDS see it not only as the LORD's bounty, but as the LORD's provision for the greater work of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. To the Mormon, Gutenberg's invention, Columbus's adventures, the Protestant's Reformation, the Framer's Declaration and eventual realization of Independence, the falling of the Berlin Wall, the advancement of computer science, and the great host of wonderful historic works both famed and obscure, were not only human achievement, but the gift and power of God which brought about the preparation for the Restoration and continues to avail and enhance the work to all the world to this day. -a-train Quote
CrimsonKairos Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 The night of apostasy was preceded--like a literal night--by a prolonged "sunset" of truth and authority. Similarly, the Restoration has been like a sunrise...slow, steady and discernible. Quote
a-train Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 While this is a whole seperate thread perhaps, I personally see no reason why a man needs the priesthood to 'prophesy'. While Gordon B. Hinkley is commonly called 'The Prophet', he is much more than that. He is the First Elder of the Church and the Keyholder of the Priesthood on earth. He is also a seer and a revelator. This is much more than a prophet. I personally believe that a non-member female who having felt the inspiration of the Holy Ghost and having testified of Christ has prophesied. -a-train Quote
prisonchaplain Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 I think you should re-think this statement. John tells us in the Book of Revelation that a testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy - not the telling of things to come. You may not be "The Prophet" but you are close to being "a prophet"The TravelerWhen a Christian teachers regularly speaks prophetically, we sometimes say "He has a prophetic mantle." We may even say he is a prophet. However, when someone occasionally expresses a prophetic word, we tend to say, "He has the gift of prophesy." I understand that some Christian churches have an office of prophet, but mine does not. Quote
CrimsonKairos Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Let's just say that proof of the apostasy comes to us in the form of the castrati (who were, admittedly, beautiful singers). The scripture that says ye shall not suffer a woman to speak in church or whatever led to the conclusion that women couldn't even sing in church services...'cuz that'd be speaking...which they were forbidden to do... So lo and behold! We'll castrate a boy so as to help him retain his soprano voice and sing the parts that women can't...'cuz women singing would be women speaking in church...which was very, very, very bad... Talk about misinterpreting scripture and being without the guidance of the Holy Ghost! Snip, snip. Quote
prisonchaplain Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 The night of apostasy was preceded--like a literal night--by a prolonged "sunset" of truth and authority.Similarly, the Restoration has been like a sunrise...slow, steady and discernible.Granting the veracity of the restoration, I'd argue that all those precursors were like the sky turning from black to purple, perhaps to violet (over the course of 250 years), and then, in a matter of a a couple of decades, shooting to high noon!Despite our shared Scriptures and Bible heroes, the LDS distinctives (vis a vis non-LDS) are many and substantive. Quote
Saab900man Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 ouchLet's just say that proof of the apostasy comes to us in the form of the castrati (who were, admittedly, beautiful singers). The scripture that says ye shall not suffer a woman to speak in church or whatever led to the conclusion that women couldn't even sing in church services...'cuz that'd be speaking...which they were forbidden to do... So lo and behold! We'll castrate a boy so as to help him retain his soprano voice and sing the parts that women can't...'cuz women singing would be women speaking in church...which was very, very, very bad...Talk about misinterpreting scripture and being without the guidance of the Holy Ghost!Snip, snip. Quote
CrimsonKairos Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Granting the veracity of the restoration, I'd argue that all those precursors were like the sky turning from black to purple, perhaps to violet (over the course of 250 years), and then, in a matter of a a couple of decades, shooting to high noon!Beautifully put, and precisely what I was attempting to articulate. Quote
Jason Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Except for that whole "tablets of stone" at Sinai deal...something about God writing the words with His finger. Never happened. Quote
CrimsonKairos Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Must've dozed off...I hate when that happens. Meh, whatever. Quote
vinny15 Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Jason. Please use sources and not opinions. I have a feeling you are also not looking for truth, but trying to see if you can make your thoughts truth. Quote
Jason Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Jason. Please use sources and not opinions. Theology, like philosophy, is just someone's opinion Vinny. Using someone else's opinion (standard works) to support your own does nothing. I have a feeling you are also not looking for truth, but trying to see if you can make your thoughts truth. That's a rather spiritually immature statement to make vinny. I don't blame you though, I thought the same when I was a missionary. We all search for truth. Here's a quote you should remember: "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." -Andre Gide Quote
vinny15 Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Jason, My friend you forget that I know the standard works are not opinions. They are truth. We are not discussing philosophy here. If we were than we would never find middle ground. Jason I will tell you that I may not be perfect, but I know things that you just dont, but you can if you just give it a chance. Spiritually immature? How so. Yes everyone is seeking the truth, but I can see by the way you argue. You see truth but you just deny it. You cant handle it for w/e reason. I cant argue with someone who believes that the bible and the bom and the D&C are all wrong. All you have is yourself and nothing else. What are you seeking? Or have you found it? Quote
Jason Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 Jason,My friend you forget that I know the standard works are not opinions. They are truth. Neither a warm fuzzy, or a vision of an Angel makes them true. So how else do you propose to support your view? We are not discussing philosophy here. If we were than we would never find middle ground. Theology is no different from philosophy. Neither can be proven. Jason I will tell you that I may not be perfect, but I know things that you just dont, but you can if you just give it a chance. Yeah, I "knew" what you claim. Now I "know" better. Spiritually immature? How so. Assuming you are right and everyone who doesn't hold the same view is wrong is a sign of spiritual immaturity. I'm not saying you're wrong Vinny. I'm saying Mormonism isn't the only "right". I cant argue with someone who believes that the bible and the bom and the D&C are all wrong. I'm not arguing they're "all wrong". I'm arguing that they're not "truth". All you have is yourself and nothing else. I have God, and that's enough. Quote
vinny15 Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 What makes it true? Spiritually mature is having faith and knowing that god is there and knowing what hes given you. What you said is spiritually immature. Quote
Jason Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 What makes it true? What makes what true? Spiritually mature is having faith and knowing that god is there and knowing what hes given you. Faith in God and faith in books written by men are two vastly different things bro. What you said is spiritually immature. Maybe we should define spiritual maturity. Quote
vinny15 Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 The thing is we need somethng to base it off of. We need to find something we both agree on. God for example we believe there is one. Do you think a loving god would leave his children to fend for themselves and not leave any of the prophetic words and do you think that jesus visited one group of people? Quote
Jason Posted June 25, 2007 Report Posted June 25, 2007 The thing is we need somethng to base it off of. We need to find something we both agree on.God for example we believe there is one. Ok. We both believe in God. Do you think a loving god would leave his children to fend for themselves and not leave any of the prophetic words.... I believe that God has given us our consciences to determine right from wrong. Some of us will listen to them, some will not. We may require more than one mortal life to get it right. Hence my believe in Reincarnation. And my belief that we don't need a Prophet. Useful? Perhaps. Necessary? No. ...and do you think that jesus visited one group of people? Jesus incarnated in the Old World, but I don't believe he needed to incarnate anywhere else. Why wouldh he? Quote
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