Sign in to follow this  
Lakumi

The World and its Creation

Recommended Posts

I can't say that I have been taught that we were exalted before coming here, in the premortal state.  So, I am not sure about your use of the word exalted here.

 

We were talking about the state of people when they are in the Celestial Kingdom having passed both the first and second estate tests and having had received a perfected, resurrected body to never die again.  I think there are clear differences between that state and the one we came from before the world began.

 

I will ask a very simple question that will generate a very simple answer.  Is living in the presents of G-d the Father an exalted spiritual state or no?

 

As a side note to this discussion - please realize the subtle change you made in my original statement that change for your argument my initial meaning.  I pointed out that we lived in an exalted spiritual state in the pre-existence.  The difference between exaltation in the pre-existence and the Celestial Kingdom is that in the Celestial Kingdom we will face physical challenges where as in the pre-existence there were no physical temptations.  I hopped you would see and realize the common spiritual influence necessary for evil to be a temptation - regardless if we are a uniquely spiritual being or a being capable of the physical as well.

Edited by Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will ask a very simple question that will generate a very simple answer.  Is living in the presents of G-d the Father an exalted spiritual state or no?

 

As a side note to this discussion - please realize the subtle change you made in my original statement that change for your argument my initial meaning.  I pointed out that we lived in an exalted spiritual state in the pre-existence.  The difference between exaltation in the pre-existence and the Celestial Kingdom is that in the Celestial Kingdom we will face physical challenges where as in the pre-existence there were no physical temptations.  I hopped you would see and realize the common spiritual influence necessary for evil to be a temptation - regardless if we are a uniquely spiritual being or a being capable of the physical as well.

What specific physical challenge are we going to face in the Celestial Kingdom (if we are fortunate enought to make it there)?  I have never been taught such a thing, so please enlighten me.  I understand we will continue to progress, to me that is not the same thing as challenge.  Challenge to me would have to be a condition that could take us down different pathways, it would have to entail choices with different consequences.

 

Is a fullness offered to a person in the Celestial Kingdom or is there a possibility of not receiving a fullness of inheritance?

 

If one buys a train ticket to San Francisco then one is going to San Francisco (so-to-speak) in God's perfect system.  There is no chance for derailment or deviation from the course.  There is no change in the path.  "Buying the ticket" meaning after the final judgement or after the completion of the first and second estate tests.  We know of no other fork in the road.  That does not mean there is no further progression, I realize we still progress but that does not have to entail forks in the road.  If it did include forks in the road off that pathway then God judged incorrectly.  To me, that is not a possibility.  

 

Before the completion of the first and second estate tests there are forks in the road.  The final destination pathway is not decided until the final judgement.  Now is our time to have a change in heart or to prepare to meet God, not after.

 

According to Elder Nelson April 2008; "To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now."

 

Amulek explains the lack of the fork in the road after Alma 34; "

 32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

 33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed."

 

"No labor performed" - in other words, no physical challenge.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What specific physical challenge are we going to face in the Celestial Kingdom (if we are fortunate enought to make it there)?  I have never been taught such a thing, so please enlighten me.  I understand we will continue to progress, to me that is not the same thing as challenge.  Challenge to me would have to be a condition that could take us down different pathways, it would have to entail choices with different consequences.

 

Is a fullness offered to a person in the Celestial Kingdom or is there a possibility of not receiving a fullness of inheritance?

 

If one buys a train ticket to San Francisco then one is going to San Francisco (so-to-speak) in God's perfect system.  There is no chance for derailment or deviation from the course.  There is no change in the path.  "Buying the ticket" meaning after the final judgement or after the completion of the first and second estate tests.  We know of no other fork in the road.  That does not mean there is no further progression, I realize we still progress but that does not have to entail forks in the road.  If it did include forks in the road off that pathway then God judged incorrectly.  To me, that is not a possibility.  

 

Before the completion of the first and second estate tests there are forks in the road.  The final destination pathway is not decided until the final judgement.  Now is our time to have a change in heart or to prepare to meet God, not after.

 

According to Elder Nelson April 2008; "To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now."

 

Amulek explains the lack of the fork in the road after Alma 34; "

 32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

 33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed."

 

"No labor performed" - in other words, no physical challenge.

 

 

You did not answer my question - is living in the presents of G-d an exalted state?

 

To answer your question - in the Celestial Kingdom we will face the challenge of having a physical body.  Do you not believe we will have a physical body in the Celestial Kingdom?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are all your arguments semantics? Can you not see that?

 

Who cares whether you call the pre-existence "exalted" or not. Yes, in one meaning of the word. No in another.

 

Stop arguing about the meanings of words and pretending like you're discussing doctrine. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You did not answer my question - is living in the presents of G-d an exalted state?

 

To answer your question - in the Celestial Kingdom we will face the challenge of having a physical body.  Do you not believe we will have a physical body in the Celestial Kingdom?

I thought I answered it with Elder Nelson's quote; "To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now."

In my understanding of the gospel, "exalted" requires having a body.  "Exalted" is living the life God lives, He lives a life with a physical body, a resurrected and perfect body that will never die or be corrupted.

 

There is no challenge in having a perfected body.  Can you please provide some referrence to this belief of yours.  I can't find any that suggests that a life in a Kingdom of God is a "challenge" in any sense of the word.  Will there be work to do? Yes. Can we still progress? Yes.  But is there a "challenge"? No.  Please explain what challenge you perceive there to be in the Celestial Kingdom related to the body and please provide references to such so that I can learn more about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I answered it with Elder Nelson's quote; "To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now."

In my understanding of the gospel, "exalted" requires having a body.  "Exalted" is living the life God lives, He lives a life with a physical body, a resurrected and perfect body that will never die or be corrupted.

 

There is no challenge in having a perfected body.  Can you please provide some referrence to this belief of yours.  I can't find any that suggests that a life in a Kingdom of God is a "challenge" in any sense of the word.  Will there be work to do? Yes. Can we still progress? Yes.  But is there a "challenge"? No.  Please explain what challenge you perceive there to be in the Celestial Kingdom related to the body and please provide references to such so that I can learn more about that.

 

In language and communication there is intent and extent.  The term I used was exalted spiritual state - not eternal exaltation.  Are you saying that there is no such thing as an exalted spiritual state in the pre-existence?

 

Also I find it interesting at this point of our discussions that you are saying a full and complete integration of the physical is a necessary accomplishment for eternal exaltation?

 

As to the difficulty there seems to be with the use of the word challenge - I am emphasizing the need to act at the highest level of our capacity.  That ought to be an eternal challenge.  I believe that it is necessary for an individual to challenge themselves to the full extent of their capacity or to that which they are capable.  It appears to me from your arguments and point of view that you personally are not willing to accept any challenges (or responsibilities??) presented or possible as a citizen in the Celestial Kingdom???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In language and communication there is intent and extent.  The term I used was exalted spiritual state - not eternal exaltation.  Are you saying that there is no such thing as an exalted spiritual state in the pre-existence?

 

Also I find it interesting at this point of our discussions that you are saying a full and complete integration of the physical is a necessary accomplishment for eternal exaltation?

 

As to the difficulty there seems to be with the use of the word challenge - I am emphasizing the need to act at the highest level of our capacity.  That ought to be an eternal challenge.  I believe that it is necessary for an individual to challenge themselves to the full extent of their capacity or to that which they are capable.  It appears to me from your arguments and point of view that you personally are not willing to accept any challenges (or responsibilities??) presented or possible as a citizen in the Celestial Kingdom???

If I go onto LDS.org or even any search engine I cannot find any reference to the phrase "exalted spiritual state" unless it is talking about our condition after this life.  So, if you want me to comment on such a thing you are going to have to explain what you mean by that phrase that is not commonely used to describe our pre-mortal existence. 

 

According to President Kimball; "We mortals who now live upon this earth are in our second estate. Our very presence here in mortal bodies attests the fact that we “kept” our first estate. Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father. Our spirit bodies went through a long period of growth and development and training and, having passed the test successfully, were finally admitted to this earth and to mortality.

One definite purpose of our spirits coming to this earth and assuming the mortal state was to obtain a physical body. This body was to be subject to all the weaknesses, temptations, frailties and limitations of mortality, and was to face the challenge to overcome self. ...

You are sent to this world with a very serious purpose. You are sent to school, for that matter, to begin as a human infant and grow to unbelievable proportions in wisdom, judgment, knowledge, and power.10

One of the most serious human defects in all ages is procrastination, an unwillingness to accept personal responsibilities now. Men came to earth consciously to obtain their schooling, their training and development, and to perfect themselves, but many have allowed themselves to be diverted and have become … addicts to mental and spiritual indolence and to the pursuit of worldly pleasure.11

This mortal life is the time to prepare to meet God, which is our first responsibility. Having already obtained our bodies, which become the permanent tabernacle for our spirits through the eternities, now we are to train our bodies, our minds, and our spirits. Pre-eminent, then, is our using this life to perfect ourselves, to subjugate the flesh, subject the body to the spirit, to overcome all weaknesses, to govern self so that one may give leadership to others, and to perform all necessary ordinances."

 

Please let me emphasise his statement (not mine) that the pre-eminent purpose of this life is to perfect ourselves and "to overcome all weaknesses".

 

 

Again President Kimball's words; "

We understood also that after a period varying from seconds to decades of mortal life we would die, our bodies would go back to Mother Earth from which they had been created, and our spirits would go to the spirit world, where we would further train for our eternal destiny. After a period, there would be a resurrection or a reunion of the body and the spirit, which would render us immortal and make possible our further climb toward perfection and godhood. This resurrection has been made available to us through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of this earth, who performed this incomparable service for us—a miracle we could not perform for ourselves. Thus the way was opened for our immortality and—if we prove worthy—eventual exaltation in God’s kingdom.7

We understood well before we came to this vale of tears that there would be sorrows, disappointments, hard work, blood, sweat, and tears; but in spite of all, we looked down and saw this earth being made ready for us, and we said in effect, “Yes, Father, in spite of all those things I can see great blessings that could come to me as one of thy sons or daughters; in taking a body I can see that I will eventually become immortal like thee, that I might overcome the effects of sin and be perfected, and so I am anxious to go to the earth at the first opportunity.” And so we came.8"

 

This is the purpose and the goal of this life and this is the end by which we pass through this means of the "vale of tears" to eventually "overcome the effects of sin and be perfected".  Yes, that is the gospel of happiness and that is the reason we came here, to be free from sin by way of perfection, or exaltation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I go onto LDS.org or even any search engine I cannot find any reference to the phrase "exalted spiritual state" unless it is talking about our condition after this life.  So, if you want me to comment on such a thing you are going to have to explain what you mean by that phrase that is not commonely used to describe our pre-mortal existence. 

 

According to President Kimball; "We mortals who now live upon this earth are in our second estate. Our very presence here in mortal bodies attests the fact that we “kept” our first estate. Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father. Our spirit bodies went through a long period of growth and development and training and, having passed the test successfully, were finally admitted to this earth and to mortality.

One definite purpose of our spirits coming to this earth and assuming the mortal state was to obtain a physical body. This body was to be subject to all the weaknesses, temptations, frailties and limitations of mortality, and was to face the challenge to overcome self. ...

You are sent to this world with a very serious purpose. You are sent to school, for that matter, to begin as a human infant and grow to unbelievable proportions in wisdom, judgment, knowledge, and power.10

One of the most serious human defects in all ages is procrastination, an unwillingness to accept personal responsibilities now. Men came to earth consciously to obtain their schooling, their training and development, and to perfect themselves, but many have allowed themselves to be diverted and have become … addicts to mental and spiritual indolence and to the pursuit of worldly pleasure.11

This mortal life is the time to prepare to meet God, which is our first responsibility. Having already obtained our bodies, which become the permanent tabernacle for our spirits through the eternities, now we are to train our bodies, our minds, and our spirits. Pre-eminent, then, is our using this life to perfect ourselves, to subjugate the flesh, subject the body to the spirit, to overcome all weaknesses, to govern self so that one may give leadership to others, and to perform all necessary ordinances."

 

Please let me emphasise his statement (not mine) that the pre-eminent purpose of this life is to perfect ourselves and "to overcome all weaknesses".

 

 

Again President Kimball's words; "

We understood also that after a period varying from seconds to decades of mortal life we would die, our bodies would go back to Mother Earth from which they had been created, and our spirits would go to the spirit world, where we would further train for our eternal destiny. After a period, there would be a resurrection or a reunion of the body and the spirit, which would render us immortal and make possible our further climb toward perfection and godhood. This resurrection has been made available to us through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of this earth, who performed this incomparable service for us—a miracle we could not perform for ourselves. Thus the way was opened for our immortality and—if we prove worthy—eventual exaltation in God’s kingdom.7

We understood well before we came to this vale of tears that there would be sorrows, disappointments, hard work, blood, sweat, and tears; but in spite of all, we looked down and saw this earth being made ready for us, and we said in effect, “Yes, Father, in spite of all those things I can see great blessings that could come to me as one of thy sons or daughters; in taking a body I can see that I will eventually become immortal like thee, that I might overcome the effects of sin and be perfected, and so I am anxious to go to the earth at the first opportunity.” And so we came.8"

 

This is the purpose and the goal of this life and this is the end by which we pass through this means of the "vale of tears" to eventually "overcome the effects of sin and be perfected".  Yes, that is the gospel of happiness and that is the reason we came here, to be free from sin by way of perfection, or exaltation.

 

Then I assume that you now finally agree (according to your own arguments) that Eden was not an exalted state unique to Adam and Eve?   But I do wonder if you believe in the fall of man and if man fell from an exalted state of some sort?  In short if the state was not exalted in some way -- how could there be a fall?

Edited by Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then I assume that you now finally agree (according to your own arguments) that Eden was not an exalted state unique to Adam and Eve?   But I do wonder if you believe in the fall of man and if man fell from an exalted state of some sort?  In short if the state was not exalted in some way -- how could there be a fall?

It is described as a paradisiacal state but one that could fall.  It is a unique state.  Mcconkie describes it this way, "And be it also remembered that the Fall was made possible because an infinite Creator, in the primeval day, made the earth and man and all forms of life in such a state that they could fall. This fall involved a change of status. All things were so created that they could fall or change, and thus was introduced the type and kind of existence needed to put into operation all of the terms and conditions of the Father’s eternal plan of salvation.

This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward."

 

It was a state in which the plan could move "forward and onward" through the Fall - a positive direction.  In other words, the Fall of Adam and Eve allowed Adam and Eve and all of us to improve our condition.  Adam and Eve's condition improved because of the Fall, not immediately but allowed for forward and onward progression.  The creation of the Garden of Eden was by itself a stale state where there was no advancement but allowed for that possibility through the Fall.  If Adam and Eve remained in that state they would not have advanced nor us.  So, that definitely does not fit the description of exalted to me, a state in which there is continual and eternal advancement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is described as a paradisiacal state but one that could fall.  It is a unique state.  Mcconkie describes it this way, "And be it also remembered that the Fall was made possible because an infinite Creator, in the primeval day, made the earth and man and all forms of life in such a state that they could fall. This fall involved a change of status. All things were so created that they could fall or change, and thus was introduced the type and kind of existence needed to put into operation all of the terms and conditions of the Father’s eternal plan of salvation.

This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward."

 

It was a state in which the plan could move "forward and onward" through the Fall - a positive direction.  In other words, the Fall of Adam and Eve allowed Adam and Eve and all of us to improve our condition.  Adam and Eve's condition improved because of the Fall, not immediately but allowed for forward and onward progression.  The creation of the Garden of Eden was by itself a stale state where there was no advancement but allowed for that possibility through the Fall.  If Adam and Eve remained in that state they would not have advanced nor us.  So, that definitely does not fit the description of exalted to me, a state in which there is continual and eternal advancement. 

 

Is our pre-existance spirit state exalted? - compared to our current state?  Does a spirit come to this mortality as an exalted spirit - or do they come flawed (from something less than a pristine exalted state).  I wish I could understand what it is you believe??? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is our pre-existance spirit state exalted? - compared to our current state?  Does a spirit come to this mortality as an exalted spirit - or do they come flawed (from something less than a pristine exalted state).  I wish I could understand what it is you believe??? 

I have told you many times over that we are dual beings.  I believe what the prophets have taught us regarding this principle.  This is all hard to understand unless one believes that we are indeed dual beings at this moment, the physical body and the spirit self.  Both are self and seemingly together in this existence but are separate and of separate natures.

 

We come into this life as a pure spirit but enter a corrupted body.  The body is corrupted because of the Fall.  Adam and Eve came into this life with a pure spirit and a paradisiacal body but one that could Fall and so it was not the perfected glorified body that we will receive with resurrection that depends on what Kingdom we enter.

 

At any given moment during this life we may be more spiritual than we are carnal and in some things we may be more spiritual than carnal.  It is not an all or nothing state, it is a mixture of the two.  The sum of the two, of course, is a fallen state because it is less than the state of the spirit's purity alone.  As life goes on, if a person takes in the nature of the body as its own, learning to like the passions of the body over spiritual ones then purity is lost and carried through to the next life as a loss.

 

As we have discussed before, all infants that die before the age of 8 are pure from the "foundations of the world".  They were never anything less than pure because of the atonement of Christ they remained untainted by the carnal body.  They dwelled in a carnal body for a short moment and in that state, the sum of the spirit and body they are in a fallen state but the individual is not the carnal unless one has the agency to make it so.  Under the age of 8 there is no agency to choose the carnal over the spiritual and so they cannot take on those traits.  Their spirits remain pure, just like they entered this world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will try again - Is a G-d an exalted being.  I believe so – it appear from what you have posted; that you do not.

You are using the terms imprecisely (both "a God" and exalted) which makes it really hard to answer without qualifications and that is how I have had to answer.  Our God is an exalted being, so we can get that one out of the way.  Was Lucifer an exalted being? what do you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are using the terms imprecisely (both "a God" and exalted) which makes it really hard to answer without qualifications and that is how I have had to answer.  Our God is an exalted being, so we can get that one out of the way.  Was Lucifer an exalted being? what do you think?

 

I speculate that Lucifer may have been and fell from exaltation (being in the presents of the Father) - but lets try this - was the G-d of the Old Testiment (Jehovah) an exalted being?  How about G-d the Holy Ghost?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I speculate that Lucifer may have been and fell from exaltation (being in the presents of the Father) - but lets try this - was the G-d of the Old Testiment (Jehovah) an exalted being?  How about G-d the Holy Ghost?

Since we are now using the terms imprecisely as if to simply say a higher state than our current state then yes, they were exalted beings.  To my understanding, though, they had not yet received their status of exaltation, meaning Eternal Life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ex·alt·ed
iɡˈzôltəd/
adjective
adjective: exalted
  1. 1.
    (of a person or their rank or status) placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard.

 

2.

 

in a state of extreme happiness.

 

Folk Prophet - of course you are correct.  The heart and core of disagreement is almost always over a missunderstanding of terms.  In this case - the phrase "exalted spiritual state".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gotta say though, the word exalted in the church has a distinct meaning, and using it otherwise can cause confusion. So, in my opinion, it's problematic to refer to exalted states other than exaltation in the Celestial kingdom. Because exaltation has such a distinct meaning, it makes sense to me to choose a different word if referring to some other place where we are, relatively, exalted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why all this debate about whether or not evolution is real? Surely the favourite activity of God the Evolutionist is to bring beings from a lower to a higher state? Isnt that what eternal progression is all about? When we look at the whole history/evolution of our consciousness, we clearly see, and are taught, that we started as an intelligence, which, probably through making the right choices, was then joined to a spirit, which then became a mortal, and which will then become an immortal, and then, hopefully, a god. This sounds like a form of evolution to me. I think it is more than just adaptation, it is changing from one type to another, from a butterfly to a moth to a dragon. There is room to speculate that entering into eternal marriage may mark the beginning of part of the evolutionary process when two beings become one, and I think it would be quite wrong to think that the transition from man to god is simply an adaptation and not a type of evolution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

ex·alt·ed
iɡˈzôltəd/
adjective
adjective: exalted
  1. 1.
    (of a person or their rank or status) placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard.

 

2.

 

in a state of extreme happiness.

 

Folk Prophet - of course you are correct.  The heart and core of disagreement is almost always over a missunderstanding of terms.  In this case - the phrase "exalted spiritual state".

 

I have already stated that if that is how you are using the term, to just mean "placed at a high or powerful level" then yes our spirits were exalted in that sense, if that is how you want to use the term.  But I don't think that is how you wanted to use the term because earlier you said; "The difference between exaltation in the pre-existence and the Celestial Kingdom is that in the Celestial Kingdom we will face physical challenges where as in the pre-existence there were no physical temptations."

 

So, your only difference between your current use of the word exalted and the type of exalted that most people in the church use the term is the character of the challenges we face and not in the actual status of our spirit.   Most people in the church would say that exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom is a much higher status than our pre-existence, much much higher, so much so that we would want to pass through mortality to get there.  If all we get after passing through mortalilty is to return to the same spiritual state we left but now face additional challenges, I would venture to say that not just a third of the host of heavens would have dropped out of the program but probably 99%.  If the only spiritual benefit from mortality was to receive a body then why have it be a probationary state or a state of testing?  That would make no sense.  If we don't change into a higher state of being spiritually from premortal life to Celestial glory than how could there be any difference between the three Kingdoms, they would all be the same, unless the Terrestrial and Telestial is a lower state of being from pre-mortality (which they aren't).

 

The whole plan of happiness tells us that the state of being before this life and then onto the next is different otherwise the plan would not be one of progression but lack of progression.  This is why I have posted that McConkie quote several times, the step into mortality was 'downward and forward and onward'.   It is a forward step, making it result, in the end, in a higher spiritual state than before.  Clumping them together as the same lessens the value of the plan and the accomplishment of going through it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have already stated that if that is how you are using the term, to just mean "placed at a high or powerful level" then yes our spirits were exalted in that sense, if that is how you want to use the term.  But I don't think that is how you wanted to use the term because earlier you said; "The difference between exaltation in the pre-existence and the Celestial Kingdom is that in the Celestial Kingdom we will face physical challenges where as in the pre-existence there were no physical temptations."

 

So, your only difference between your current use of the word exalted and the type of exalted that most people in the church use the term is the character of the challenges we face and not in the actual status of our spirit.   Most people in the church would say that exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom is a much higher status than our pre-existence, much much higher, so much so that we would want to pass through mortality to get there.  If all we get after passing through mortalilty is to return to the same spiritual state we left but now face additional challenges, I would venture to say that not just a third of the host of heavens would have dropped out of the program but probably 99%.  If the only spiritual benefit from mortality was to receive a body then why have it be a probationary state or a state of testing?  That would make no sense.  If we don't change into a higher state of being spiritually from premortal life to Celestial glory than how could there be any difference between the three Kingdoms, they would all be the same, unless the Terrestrial and Telestial is a lower state of being from pre-mortality (which they aren't).

 

The whole plan of happiness tells us that the state of being before this life and then onto the next is different otherwise the plan would not be one of progression but lack of progression.  This is why I have posted that McConkie quote several times, the step into mortality was 'downward and forward and onward'.   It is a forward step, making it result, in the end, in a higher spiritual state than before.  Clumping them together as the same lessens the value of the plan and the accomplishment of going through it.

 

I am putting forth the notion that "exalted" is the state that is compatable to the presents of G-d the Father.  I do not understandy why you object to that defination.  Please be specific.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am putting forth the notion that "exalted" is the state that is compatable to the presents of G-d the Father.  I do not understandy why you object to that defination.  Please be specific.

I don't reject it but it is too vague for the things that we were talking about.  This is Gospel Principle's description of Exaltation, which is one of our basic understanings of the gospel; "

Exaltation
  • What is exaltation?

Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with our Heavenly Father in eternal families. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give His children (see D&C 14:7)."

 

So the true use of the word exalted also includes having all knowledge and all wisdom and living with the same glory God has, not just living in His presence.  It is a gift that is given if worthy after we have completed the first and second estates.  If that is how exaltation is defined then we did not have that before this world began.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I don't reject it but it is too vague for the things that we were talking about.  This is Gospel Principle's description of Exaltation, which is one of our basic understanings of the gospel; "

Exaltation
  • What is exaltation?

Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with our Heavenly Father in eternal families. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give His children (see D&C 14:7)."

 

So the true use of the word exalted also includes having all knowledge and all wisdom and living with the same glory God has, not just living in His presence.  It is a gift that is given if worthy after we have completed the first and second estates.  If that is how exaltation is defined then we did not have that before this world began.

 

 

I would suggest that you council the L-rd on his improper use of the word "exalted" in scripture.  (D&C 63:55)

 

Obviously when I talked about an exalted spirit - I was not talking about exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.  Likewise the L-rd was not indicating that Sidney Rigdon was Celestializing himself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you believe in Creationism, or do you believe in Evolution.

 

I believe in Evolution, though I think if there is a God, the moment our universe came into being was its doing, and everything perhaps that has transpired.

Evolution, dinosaurs, the dawn of man...I always felt creationism sort of made God look less divine, seemed like a primative human's explenation for creation when the reality was so much grander and much more worthy of a divine power, at least I think so.

 

Maybe it's that anthropocentristic thinking that distracs us from greater insights. The reality is much grander and God has  more grandeur (I like these American adjecives and nouns that sprang from French) than our imagination is even able to recognize and understand. It's my insight that the power of God even can make things and events unhappen. What is a universe for HIM? There was a terrible event that has struck you or you've heard about it on the news and you can't forget it? Perhaps one day you wake up in another "reality" and your life will be similar to your actual life but without that event. It doesn't exist and it has never been existing. This gives me an answer on the old question why God allows the evil and awful things to happen. HE can wipe them away, simply delete them, the way our conciousness fades down when we die and wake up in a better world filled with HIS divine love and mercy.

 

I believe there is a divine plan, and evolution is a part of this plan, so we shouldn't see evolution in contradiction with the creationism, but more as a result of it. And who can say God's creation has come to an end yet? The universe will still be lasting for billions of years, and who knows what mankind's destination will be? Will Jesus be sent to Earth and the Millenium will begin (but what is a millenium in comparison to eternity...?) or will God send us to the stars and enable mankind one day for interstellar journeys, through spacetime, and will HE offer us HIS universe with its uncountable galaxies and worlds...? I don't know.

Edited by JimmiGerman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this