Grace Vs. Works - Maybe Repentence = Key

[the_jason]

You're right that it shouldn't be mentioned since it rarely happens. In cases when it does happen though, a person still has the ability to sin, or even fall away from the truth altogether. Sin pushes us further away from the presence of God, so a person cannot TRULY be saved until the judgement day.

[CrimsonKairos]

You're right that it shouldn't be mentioned since it rarely happens. In cases when it does happen though, a person still has the ability to sin, or even fall away from the truth altogether.

Not true. Those with their calling and election made sure will never lose exaltation. It is as if they have arrived at Judgment Day and been found worthy of exaltation. See this page, particularly this excerpt from Elder McConkie's Doctrinal New Testament Commentary:

[5] What is meant by having one's calling and election made sure?

To have one's calling and election made sure is to be sealed up unto eternal life; it is to have the unconditional guarantee of exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is to receive the assurance of godhood; it is, in effect, to have the day of judgment advanced, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father's kingdom is assured prior to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is "set down" with his "Father in his throne." (Rev 3:21.)

[prisonchaplain]

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I know that many LDS find it sad that the rest of us have not embraced and enjoyed the Latter-Day truths.

I never mentioned once that Latter-day Saints will be the only ones who are saved. My point is simply that conversion takes a lifetime and salvation cannot be attained until a person's life either ends or is perfected, the latter of which cannot take place in this life. I'm grateful for your view on salvation. I only wish the rest of the world shared the same.

CK is right, that discussions of salvation between Latter Day Saints and Evangelicals often get muddled by semantics. So, here's a brief evangelical glossary:

Salvation: The moment of conversion. Evangelicals will quibble over whether one can "lose" this salvation, but we generally agree that it is garnered at the moment of repentent prayer, and submission to the Lordship of Jesus.

Heaven: A single kingdom where all those redeemed by the promise of the Lamb (yes, there is room for OT Israel in this equation).

Hell: A much larger place than the LDS version--where all those who rejected God will dwell.

Sanctification: The process of becoming holy and like Christ. The one who claims Christ but produces no works, and no character change, is one with "dead faith." In essence, they either were never really converted, or they lost there way.

For evangelicals, then, "salvation," is escape from hell and the promise of entry into heaven, because of the shed-blood of Jesus. Additionally, it is the life of Christ in me--which begins immediately.

So, while I strive for holiness, I am not seeking a higher kingdom in heaven. On the other hand, hell is a very real possibility--so I guard the salvation I've one.

Now try to mesh this with the LDS understanding. What is salvation? If it's merely escape from hell, perhaps most would say, "Well, yes, then I'm saved." Furthermore, as The Jason affirmed, many non-LDS will dwell in the kingdoms of heaven. The Celestial Kingdom might be more difficult--the LDS revelations definitely help--but, several have affirmed that even there, some non-LDS will dwell.

It really is hard to have a discussion about one single doctrine or teaching, isn't it? B)

[Traveler]

Traveler, why don't you address this idea that there is joy in the Fall, and that you see a link between it an our eternity destinies in joining our Heavenly Father in having eternal families etc. I've learned some about eternal families and the expanded LDS view of our own future glorification, but not how those teaching are linked to the Fall.

I've come to a different view of the Fall, and so find this fascinating. My sense is that Adam & Eve did not give into to curiosity, but rather joined in rebellion against God. With the knowledge of good and evil, they could be like God. If you're like God, you know longer have to depend on him.

God may have foreknew the Fall would come, but I the only joy I find is that we have been gifted with a dramatic example of our Heavenly Father's mercy and love.

PC: I have come to a rather different opinion concerning the fall. I realize that many things in scripture seem to have a certain meaning but after careful consideration and whisperings of spirit some things that are learned; come by no other means. All the scholastic endeavors of man and training by well paid professionals cannot be matched by the L-rd touching one’s mind and heart.

I believe beyond question, that Adam and Eve made a choice that was exactly what G-d knew, desired and planned from the very beginning. Satan played directly into G-ds plan and it was Satan that had not planned correctly, playing into what was G-d’s will and not G-d that planned poorly and was derailed by Satan. The choice of knowledge of good and evil was a choice that man must make on his own without G-d making it for man or forcing it upon man. G-d could not tell man to make the choice or command him to make the choice. Yet the choice was necessary for man in order to move toward the destiny G-d had designed. The Fall was literally a necessary thing and a principle of the “Gospel” (or good news) of Jesus Christ.

Why have I come to this conclusion rather than the standard Sunday School answer?

1. G-d wanted man to learn to trust and depend on the true essence of what makes G-d – G-d. If man was not a fallen being there would never be a need for man to trust and depend on G-d.

2. G-d wanted man to learn and experience the love, compassion, sacrifice and commitment of a savior and redeemer. If man had not fallen there would be no need for a savior and redeemer.

3. G-d had planned that Jesus the Christ would save and redeem all of man even before the fall. Jesus was “anointed” or “crowned” the “Messiah” before Adam and Eve were physically created on the earth – this anointing was G-d’s will – proving that the fall was G-d’s will for man even before man was a physical living soul.

I regret that anyone would ever argue that becoming truly like G-d is contrary to what G-d really is or desires. I see such doctrine and teachings as a great contradiction. The argument that if we become like G-d we will not rely on that which is good and righteous is simply not true for G-d himself relies on that which is good and righteous in others. The great example of Jesus and his reliance on G-d the Father is the proof of the falseness of this concept. Jesus relied on G-d the Father more than any other living person to come to earth and yet he was more like G-d the Father than any other living person to come to earth.

Some think that to be free is to be without dependencies. Consider what Jesus said (John 8:31-32). :If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free”. I would comment that only G-d is free and to be free is to be like G-d. But in addition, Jesus tells us something about the true freeness of G-d. It only comes by continuing (depending and trusting) in the word – there-by showing us that G-d himself and his true kind of freedom is very much dependent on “the word” as we should be in order to also be free.

I would submit to all that would hear this good news; that until man was fallen and in grave eternal danger there would not be any need to depend on the divine word because there was nothing to lose and nothing to gain by it– which is at the heart and essence of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

...but, several have affirmed that even there, some non-LDS will dwell.

When the final bell has been rung and we are standing before The L-rd, will it matter who is LDS and who is not? In that day it will be those who The L-rd knows, the rest H- will not and cast out. Though the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are not as bad as The Outer Darkness, it will be of as much worth if one can not live in the pressence of G-d.

Our hearts will be exposed and judged by what we knew to be true or by what we have been taught or witnessed of. Status in any religious body will be moot (think of the bit about the Children of Abraham and a bunch of rocks). The hypocricy of our words and actions will be what defile/condemn us as the unwashed and thus unwelcome. Have I been taught by my parents and fellowmen the right way to salvation? Yes, but then the question will be: "what did I do about it?"

It is then that we will relie on Grace.

I am not worthy of exhaltation, but I hope I won't be found too wanting. I have a lot of work to do. By the standards of Mainstream American Protestants, I'm saved (even though they might brand me a cultist or heretic of some sort). As a Latter-day Saint, I know I'm converted and as active as I can be, but Celestial Salvation is going to be hard. Faith though is what keeps me going along the path I know: Love. Isn't there something that says: "If ye love Me, obey my commandments" (this quote and the following are not quite right) and that the two greatest commandments are "to Love The L-rd... and our neighbors... and that here in lie all the law and the prophets." If one equates work with love, then I guess that one ought to be about it.

[Traveler]

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...but, several have affirmed that even there, some non-LDS will dwell.

When the final bell has been rung and we are standing before The L-rd, will it matter who is LDS and who is not? In that day it will be those who The L-rd knows, the rest H- will not and cast out. Though the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are not as bad as The Outer Darkness, it will be of as much worth if one can not live in the pressence of G-d.

Our hearts will be exposed and judged by what we knew to be true or by what we have been taught or witnessed of. Status in any religious body will be moot (think of the bit about the Children of Abraham and a bunch of rocks). The hypocricy of our words and actions will be what defile/condemn us as the unwashed and thus unwelcome. Have I been taught by my parents and fellowmen the right way to salvation? Yes, but then the question will be: "what did I do about it?"

It is then that we will relie on Grace.

I am not worthy of exhaltation, but I hope I won't be found too wanting. I have a lot of work to do. By the standards of Mainstream American Protestants, I'm saved (even though they might brand me a cultist or heretic of some sort). As a Latter-day Saint, I know I'm converted and as active as I can be, but Celestial Salvation is going to be hard. Faith though is what keeps me going along the path I know: Love. Isn't there something that says: "If ye love Me, obey my commandments" (this quote and the following are not quite right) and that the two greatest commandments are "to Love The L-rd... and our neighbors... and that here in lie all the law and the prophets." If one equates work with love, then I guess that one ought to be about it.

My friend – Shakespeare once said, “Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so.” I believe the journey is only difficult to those that make it so. May I add two things to you thinking? Stretch you mind and spirit?

1. The concept of worthiness is a backward thinking concept rooted in one’s past – but the will and power of the L-rd’s salvation is forward thinking looking to the future. It is not so much about being worthy as it is about being prepared. We prepare ourselves for the fullness of G-d by learning to live and love the fullness of his commandments. The preparation, I believe is not so much about arriving as it is the method we learn to travel. The point is to enjoy the journey. Man is that he might have joy.

2. The other concept is covenant. For those that learn to enjoy the covenant of marriage and family begin to understand the eternal strength of covenant as a plan of happiness. A covenant is a contract in partnership – not a master over slave means of control. The commandments are our helps and our strength – they are the joy of salvation. If we do not find joy now in such things there is little reason to think we will be prepared for such things in eternity – even if we have some how “suffered” through worthiness.

Rejoyce with me in the covenants and commandments of the L-rd as we travel for a short time together.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I'll edit this later with actual thoughts. There is too much in Traveler's and The Ogre's last few posts for me to respond to "off the cuff." So, when I can meditate and concentrate, I'll offer what the Spirit gives me. Thank you, as always, for such rich thoughtfulness.

[boyando]

Many here have probably participated in Grace vs. Works flame wars. Recently, I have read that some LDS scholars have started embracing a greater emphasis on the grace side of the equation. So, in reading Stephen Robison's explanation of the issue, I stumbled upon an interesting, if basic concept: faith must needs include REPENTENCE.

SEE: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/faq.php?id...table=questions

Perhaps this is our missing key? For, If you really BELIEVE in Jesus and his message, then you will REPENT of your sins, TURN from your wicked ways, and yes, proceed to OBEY Christ's commands.

We all agree on this, but get caught up in our desire to emphasize (God's grace - can't merit salvation vs. opposition to 'cheap grace' 'easy-believism,' or "fire insurance Christianity."). Perhaps if the emphasis were not on grace or works first, but upon repentence. You can't get saved until you realize you are lost. If you know you're lost, then when you are saved, you will be cognizant that things have to change. Sins have to be discarded, and the life of Christ (with its good works and obedience to commands) must be picked up.

I know there are still differences that are substantial, but I am thinking that REPENTENCE is a crucial meeting ground on this topic.

Hi PC

I don't have much time, because I'm working two jobs and there are a couple of great things that are going on in my life. So I hope my brevity and sharpness will not turn your heart, deaf.

I have always admired your love of God and the joy you take in the Gospel. In more ways we are a like than we are different, so please don't take this personal, when I say that I don't want to find a meeting place, other than were God would have us meet.

You also have a great love for the people that come to this site. And I would say that it is a safe bet, that you have got the two greatest commandment down pretty good. Love God and love your neighbors, as well as your self. My praise is sincere.

There is no conflict, between grace and works, in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. Jesus Christ is who we look too for our Salvation. We do works to become closer to Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father. We know were are Salvation comes from and we know it is a gift that the human mind can not comprehend.

We do works, because we do believe in Jesus Christ, not because we think we need to do so many service projects, in our live time, or we won't get to heaven. The conflict seems to be outside of the LDS faith. If I were to stereotype the message I hear, from those who think that we are not saved, because we do not believe in grace, it is that any Church that believes in doing good works, doesn't understand what God wants us to do. I know thats not what you are saying, because I have read what you have written in the past.

My heart is still very heavy, because I know that there is so much more grace that you could have in your life, if you were a member of this, the Lords Church. I am praying that I do not offend you, but rather, I am, hoping to open your heart, to let you see that there is even more grace to be had.

My heart is also heavy, for those who belong to this great Church and who do not take every opportunity, to enjoy his grace. I know that I have not taken full advantage of His grace, yet, because I have much to be forgiven of.

Once again, I would ask for forgiveness, for my weakness in writing and my shortness. And though I can not say that I have found love for all mankind, I would have to say, that most on this website, have made it very easy too love those I have known, here.

Love to all - Allmosthumble

[the Ogre]

1. The concept of worthiness is a backward thinking concept rooted in one’s past – but the will and power of the L-rd’s salvation is forward thinking looking to the future. It is not so much about being worthy as it is about being prepared. We prepare ourselves for the fullness of G-d by learning to live and love the fullness of his commandments. The preparation, I believe is not so much about arriving as it is the method we learn to travel. The point is to enjoy the journey. Man is that he might have joy.

Dude,

I love this, but I’ve lived such a past that I have to remember my own stumbling block so I’ll be able to avoid it in the future. I wish I had not stumbled in my late-teen/military years, but I did and I have been paying for that ever since.

I have this saying that I use at home so much with my own teen-agers that it has become cliché: “make choices that will pay you instead of having to pay for them later.” My oldest has committed to go on his mission in January after fall semester. My daughter is a joy and so-not the clichéd LDS girl, while still being loyal to the precepts of the church that I am filled with joy when I talk to her. My youngest is still in highschool and so is caught up in that illusionary world that it is hard to keep him oriented, but he is doing a great job and had a great spring semester as his seminary-class president.

I was not as wise as my children. I hope they will be able to look forward prepared for their futures instead of worried about the ghosts in their pasts like I do.

2. The other concept is covenant. For those that learn to enjoy the covenant of marriage and family begin to understand the eternal strength of covenant as a plan of happiness. A covenant is a contract in partnership – not a master over slave means of control. The commandments are our helps and our strength – they are the joy of salvation. If we do not find joy now in such things there is little reason to think we will be prepared for such things in eternity – even if we have some how “suffered” through worthiness.

Absolutely. I my ex left me and the church, but I am still a participant in the covenant of marriage and one day I will again partner with a glorious woman in this covenant.

There is more to the covenants I have made with the L-rd beyond the pain of my failed marriage. Most of the covenants I have made are between H-m and me.

We do works, because we do believe in Jesus Christ, not because we think we need to do so many service projects, in our live time, or we won't get to heaven. The conflict seems to be outside of the LDS faith. If I were to stereotype the message I hear, from those who think that we are not saved, because we do not believe in grace, it is that any Church that believes in doing good works, doesn't understand what God wants us to do…

Right on!

Aaron the Ogre

[prisonchaplain]

I believe beyond question, that Adam and Eve made a choice that was exactly what G-d knew, desired and planned from the very beginning. Satan played directly into G-ds plan and it was Satan that had not planned correctly, playing into what was G-d’s will and not G-d that planned poorly and was derailed by Satan. The choice of knowledge of good and evil was a choice that man must make on his own without G-d making it for man or forcing it upon man. G-d could not tell man to make the choice or command him to make the choice. Yet the choice was necessary for man in order to move toward the destiny G-d had designed. The Fall was literally a necessary thing and a principle of the “Gospel” (or good news) of Jesus Christ.

The choice of the knowledge of good and evil was one of rebellion. While God was not surprised or way-laid by humanity's rebellion, it is difficult to believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey him. I remain convinced that the failure of Adam and Eve to choose righteousness meant us traveling a much more difficult path.

Why have I come to this conclusion rather than the standard Sunday School answer?

1. G-d wanted man to learn to trust and depend on the true essence of what makes G-d – G-d. If man was not a fallen being there would never be a need for man to trust and depend on G-d.

To use a blunt example, I do not have to cheat on my wife to realize how much I love and depend upon her. And, in essence, that's what happened. The Serpent seduced Adam and Eve into seeking a path of independence--of becoming lovers of self, rather than seeking true fulfillment through our relationship with our Creator.

2. G-d wanted man to learn and experience the love, compassion, sacrifice and commitment of a savior and redeemer. If man had not fallen there would be no need for a savior and redeemer.

I struggle with the notion that God "wanted" us to fail, that he "wanted" to put his Son through such agony, that he "wanted" our world to become as sin-sick as it is. His glory shines through all of this, but me thinks the fall is a great lesson for us on why God hates sin and will not tolerate rebellion in eternity.

3. G-d had planned that Jesus the Christ would save and redeem all of man even before the fall. Jesus was “anointed” or “crowned” the “Messiah” before Adam and Eve were physically created on the earth – this anointing was G-d’s will – proving that the fall was G-d’s will for man even before man was a physical living soul.

God's foreknowledge of our rebellion is no indication it was his best will for us.

I regret that anyone would ever argue that becoming truly like G-d is contrary to what G-d really is or desires. I see such doctrine and teachings as a great contradiction. The argument that if we become like G-d we will not rely on that which is good and righteous is simply not true for G-d himself relies on that which is good and righteous in others. The great example of Jesus and his reliance on G-d the Father is the proof of the falseness of this concept. Jesus relied on G-d the Father more than any other living person to come to earth and yet he was more like G-d the Father than any other living person to come to earth.

We may become godlike in many of our qualities, but we will always be creation, our God the Creator.

Some think that to be free is to be without dependencies. Consider what Jesus said (John 8:31-32). :If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free”. I would comment that only G-d is free and to be free is to be like G-d. But in addition, Jesus tells us something about the true freeness of G-d. It only comes by continuing (depending and trusting) in the word – there-by showing us that G-d himself and his true kind of freedom is very much dependent on “the word” as we should be in order to also be free.

I would submit to all that would hear this good news; that until man was fallen and in grave eternal danger there would not be any need to depend on the divine word because there was nothing to lose and nothing to gain by it– which is at the heart and essence of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

The Traveler

I understand the reasoning behind saying that the Fall was a necessity and a good. However, I continue to believe that Eden was a place of blessing, and that the purity and innocence of Adam & Eve's relationship with God prior to the Fall was a tragic loss. God is merciful, and we thank him for the plan of salvation. But my rejoicing is that God will bring us through the hard times, not for the hard times themselves.

[CrimsonKairos]

I think God loves me enough to let me suffer whatever is necessary to let me experience a fulness of joy.

The LDS view makes more sense if you read this from Joseph Smith's Translation of the Bible (called the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price). Moses 5:9-11 says:

And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

The part in bold is particularly salient. LDS believe that Adam and Eve never would have had children if they had stayed in Eden in a state of innocence (ignorance). Hence, the only way for any of us to come to earth and progress towards our potential was through Adam and Eve's transgression.

[Traveler]

My friend Prison Chaplain: It is not so much if a misunderstanding of repentance as it is the foundation in the fall that Evangelicals and LDS part in religious thinking. Not to criticize but to point out the areas where we differ and part ways in thinking.

The choice of the knowledge of good and evil was one of rebellion. While God was not surprised or way-laid by humanity's rebellion, it is difficult to believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey him. I remain convinced that the failure of Adam and Eve to choose righteousness meant us traveling a much more difficult path.

In your concern about a difficult path had it not been for the fall – you are correct – things would be much more easy. I would compare the easiness to taking an exam without questions. No one fails and everybody excels – that is easy enough. Remember without the fall there is no knowledge of good or evil. I find nothing what-so-ever in G-d’s plan concerning man in scripture that does not depend on discerning good from evil – If you think of anything, pass it on. In fact I do not believe any one can worship G-d unless they can recognize the good that is in him.

To use a blunt example, I do not have to cheat on my wife to realize how much I love and depend upon her. And, in essence, that's what happened. The Serpent seduced Adam and Eve into seeking a path of independence--of becoming lovers of self, rather than seeking true fulfillment through our relationship with our Creator.

This response to man depending on G-d because of the fall makes no sense to me. Perhaps you could tell me for what man depends on G-d for and how we could have know of it without the fall. Name one thing – we can erase salvation and everything associated with that. There is no deliverance from sin because there is no such thing. Pleas tell me for what unfallen man depends.

I struggle with the notion that God "wanted" us to fail, that he "wanted" to put his Son through such agony, that he "wanted" our world to become as sin-sick as it is. His glory shines through all of this, but me thinks the fall is a great lesson for us on why God hates sin and will not tolerate rebellion in eternity

This is exactly the problem LDS understand that Satan had with the Father’s plan and why he rebelled to fight against G-d and thus was expelled from heaven. When you use this argument with LDS it does not look to us that you are inspired by a very good spirit.

This is very hard for LDS to understand – the concept that Adam and Eve rebelled. They were innocent and had no knowledge at all of good and evil. Calling it a rebellion is like blaming a 2 year old child that drowns in a swimming pool because the father (knowing before what would happen) left the 2year old with instructions not to get near the water or they would drown then knowing that an older boy would push the 2 year old in – and when it was all done saying the 2 year old deserved it because the were rebellious to the father’s suggestion that they stay away from the water. Adam and Eve were innocent and did not know better. When Jesus was hung on a cross he said “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”. How can anyone rebel when they do not really understand what was at stake or what they were really doing?

How could man rebell against G-d without the simple understanding of good and evil and the difference?

Plus how can you trust a G-d that punishes you for Adam’s rebellion?

We may become godlike in many of our qualities, but we will always be creation, our God the Creator.

This statement is the one statement that most exemplifies that we cannot have common understanding. That is the insistence that G-d as the creator and we as the created have no possibility of any thing in common because in your mind there is always a difference in every single thing because there can never be anything that is apart of a creator that is also part of that what which is created. This makes everything else in your expressions of religion a false fantasy to us. For example – when someone says they want to live in eternity with the L-rd – We wonder why they say that about a person with whom you have nothing in common and can never have anything in common – even his love is the love of the creator and your love is the love of the created. When you talk about being one with G-d we think you are nuts. And when you claim to be born of the spirit of the creator we think you have lost your marbles because you insist you are still a created spirit with created thinking capable nothing creative.

I understand the reasoning behind saying that the Fall was a necessity and a good. However, I continue to believe that Eden was a place of blessing, and that the purity and innocence of Adam & Eve's relationship with God prior to the Fall was a tragic loss. God is merciful, and we thank him for the plan of salvation. But my rejoicing is that God will bring us through the hard times, not for the hard times themselves.

Again I just do not see it – what relationship is possible with G-d for a being that has no knowledge of good or evil? How can such a being appreciate G-d or heaven? I can understand loving G-d without experience in evil but how can anyone have a meaningful relationship with G-d without any clue of his goodness? Or what good is?

The sad part of this discussion is that because we cannot get past the necessity of the fall (the milk of this concept) in order to know good or evil, thus we can never get to the meat of what it was that Satan was really trying to do when he tempted Adam and Eve and what exactly he intended to ruin of G-d’s plan.

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

...When you talk about being one with G-d we think you are nuts. And when you claim to be born of the spirit of the creator we think you have lost your marbles because you insist you are still a created spirit with created thinking capable nothing creative...

The Traveler

I think this point deserves some clarification. I have had the opportunity to read quite a few of the Chirstians from the Middle-ages (not enough to make myself a type of expert or anything), but I do not think their desire or that of the Medieval Catholic Church to be such a bad idea when it comes to the idea of unifying with G-d. There are some aspects of it that seem a little odd (if G-d has a boby and we have bodies after the resurection, then true unification cannot happen--if unification means joining the amorphous Nicene body, then isn't that putting one's self on the same level as G-d?), but the way I have taken their writing is to mean being of the same of purpose (though some of them and some experts would disagree with my interpretation) whatever that purpose it.

There is nothing wrong with being unified mind, body, and spirit with eternal purpose. In my belief that G-d is a passionate being, I also believe that H- is a non-static being growing and improving (don't ask me to prove or explain improving on perfection, because I can't) and that in addition to being Our Cr-ator and that of the universe, H- is also creative and is capable of making room for many interpretations.

The literature of the mystics is interesting and worth more study (after I graduate), but I do not agree with the ideoms "nuts" or "losing one's marbles" regarding what has been said, but that there is room for interpretation, particularly since most of what has been said in this discussion runs outside the theology of the LDS faith.

Aaron the Ogre

[prisonchaplain]

I think God loves me enough to let me suffer whatever is necessary to let me experience a fulness of joy.

The LDS view makes more sense if you read this from Joseph Smith's Translation of the Bible (called the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price). Moses 5:9-11 says:

And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

The part in bold is particularly salient. LDS believe that Adam and Eve never would have had children if they had stayed in Eden in a state of innocence (ignorance). Hence, the only way for any of us to come to earth and progress towards our potential was through Adam and Eve's transgression.

Thank you for confirming what I had suspected--that your view of the Fall is very much in line with LDS orthodoxy. Yes, my sense is that the Fall-as-blessing fit in well with the LDS teaching on salvation. I won't argue against it. Perhaps you understand my concerns, minus those additional explanations Joseph Smith and others have offered?

[the Ogre]

...my sense is that the Fall-as-blessing fit in well with the LDS teaching on salvation...

I don't agree with how you are labeling it, however. The terminology is misleading. I do not think Latter-day Saint beliefs parallel your implication.

Yes, the fall happened; an act by our mutual progenitor. I agree with Lehi's interpretation of the fall. Isn't the interesting side of the fall the redemption? I think the blessing of the fall is Chr-st's redemption of that action and his ability to wrap all the stupid, sinful things I've done, do, will do into H-s redemption through grace and love.

Aaron the Ogre

[wordzee]

So, here's a follow-up question: At what point can I confidently say, "I'm saved." Or, if you prefer, "I'm converted." After the moment of repentence? After giving a public confession of faith? After baptism? After a year of faithfulness?

There's a fine line between spiritual arrogance and triumphalism and uncertainty. There is the false humility that says, "Well, I can't know for sure until I get there." Such seems to betray much faith in Christ's saving power at all. On the other hand, the bold proclammation of the unrepentent serial sinner that, "I'm saved cause I said the prayer," smacks of willful self-deception.

Can you spell out how the appropriate balance works in your own life? As for me, I would declare, after repentence that I was saved/converted. However, I also know Satan desires to trip me up, and cause me to fall away. I must guard my heart, and stay about the Father's business. So, as the cliche goes: I'm saved, I am being saved, and ultimately I will be saved.

An additional healthy check is the admonition of Scripture that we ought to judge ourselves so God won't have to. Even David pleaded with God to search his heart and see if there was anything unclean. I don't wallow in the paralysis of over-analysis, but neither do I dare to walk proudly before my God.

Amen.

I want to say more, but I don't think there is much to say. But because I'm 'wordzee', I'll say it anyway.

I, too love Paul. No one can truly get the NT without reading the OT. Paul understood better than most, being an official Pharisee, the trappings of works and the importance of works. Define works.

We are loved. Loved perfectly. When I allow myself to fall into His love, my heart becomes 'open' and my spirit willing. In that space, I have a willingness to subject myself to all the Father desires to teach me. Then, I have the greatest desire to share, be His hands, to do His will.

Then, I get arrogant. I forget to fall into Him. Soon, I find myself needing...the cycle repeats.

I don't know if at any time I've felt my guaranteed assurance that 'I'm in'. What I do know, and have always known, is the Jesus is my Savior! He loves me! And I love Him in my human way. I know that I could have never redeemed myself from this life without Him. He is my All, my Everything. Without Him I am nothing. No light, no life, no anything can or does exist without Him. I owe Him my very breath.

I'm not sure how to divide that into Mercy vs works. I'm not sure I need to. I'm just eternally grateful that He found me and I listened to His voice! He did find me. I did answer. I am grateful.

Wonderful thread! Thank you.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

...my sense is that the Fall-as-blessing fit in well with the LDS teaching on salvation...

I don't agree with how you are labeling it, however. The terminology is misleading. I do not think Latter-day Saint beliefs parallel your implication.

Yes, the fall happened; an act by our mutual progenitor. I agree with Lehi's interpretation of the fall. Isn't the interesting side of the fall the redemption? I think the blessing of the fall is Chr-st's redemption of that action and his ability to wrap all the stupid, sinful things I've done, do, will do into H-s redemption through grace and love.

Aaron the Ogre

I agree with everything you just said. The notion that the Fall was a necessity, and that God "wanted" it to happen so that the plan of salvation could play out is what I was addressing. My view is expressed in Romans 6. Paul asks whether we should sin, so that grace may abound. He says, "God forbid!" Likewise, while mercy and salvation came out of the Fall, the Church's view of it should remain that we failed God, imho.

[prisonchaplain]

In your concern about a difficult path had it not been for the fall – you are correct – things would be much more easy. I would compare the easiness to taking an exam without questions. No one fails and everybody excels – that is easy enough. Remember without the fall there is no knowledge of good or evil. I find nothing what-so-ever in G-d’s plan concerning man in scripture that does not depend on discerning good from evil – If you think of anything, pass it on. In fact I do not believe any one can worship G-d unless they can recognize the good that is in him.

Adam and Eve already had a righteous understanding of good and evil--the best, purest understanding. They did what God commanded. This was good. They did not do what God prohibited, because that was bad. It's like the old parent cliche, "I don't have to wallow in mud to know it's dirty." God was truly disappointed by Adam and Eve's sin, and issued punishment, along with hope (especially Genesis 3:15).

0This response to man depending on G-d because of the fall makes no sense to me. Perhaps you could tell me for what man depends on G-d for and how we could have know of it without the fall. Name one thing – we can erase salvation and everything associated with that. There is no deliverance from sin because there is no such thing. Pleas tell me for what unfallen man depends.

Everything. God gave them "the breath of life." The Garden is his provision. Daily they walk with their Creator. Clearly there was a meaningful relationship between them.

This is exactly the problem LDS understand that Satan had with the Father’s plan and why he rebelled to fight against G-d and thus was expelled from heaven. When you use this argument with LDS it does not look to us that you are inspired by a very good spirit.

My understanding is that Satan rebelled because he wanted supremacy, not because he disagreed with God's redemption plans for us. I'm guessing that you are referencing teachings that are unique to your church.

This is very hard for LDS to understand – the concept that Adam and Eve rebelled. They were innocent and had no knowledge at all of good and evil. Calling it a rebellion is like blaming a 2 year old child that drowns in a swimming pool because the father (knowing before what would happen) left the 2year old with instructions not to get near the water or they would drown then knowing that an older boy would push the 2 year old in – and when it was all done saying the 2 year old deserved it because the were rebellious to the father’s suggestion that they stay away from the water. Adam and Eve were innocent and did not know better. When Jesus was hung on a cross he said “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”. How can anyone rebel when they do not really understand what was at stake or what they were really doing?

Adam and Eve had personal and direct intimate relationship with God. They walked with him daily. They knew that he and his words were good, and that all else was evil. What Satan offered them was the experience of evil.

How could man rebell against G-d without the simple understanding of good and evil and the difference?

Plus how can you trust a G-d that punishes you for Adam’s rebellion?

The simple answer is that he did. Eternal existence in paradise Eden was ended. Sickness, death, the corruption of nature--all entered humanity.

This statement is the one statement that most exemplifies that we cannot have common understanding. That is the insistence that G-d as the creator and we as the created have no possibility of any thing in common because in your mind there is always a difference in every single thing because there can never be anything that is apart of a creator that is also part of that what which is created. This makes everything else in your expressions of religion a false fantasy to us. For example – when someone says they want to live in eternity with the L-rd – We wonder why they say that about a person with whom you have nothing in common and can never have anything in common – even his love is the love of the creator and your love is the love of the created. When you talk about being one with G-d we think you are nuts. And when you claim to be born of the spirit of the creator we think you have lost your marbles because you insist you are still a created spirit with created thinking capable nothing creative.

We certainly can and do commune with God--again, so did Adam and Eve, even prior to the Fall. We can experience his presence, his love, his strength, his direction, his annointing, his healing...his life. But, yes, we will always be his creation, and he, our Creator.

Traveler, you've also stumbled upon a revealing truth vis a vis LDS teachings vs. those of most other Christian churches: We share much, but also have some fascinating and signficant differences00.

The sad part of this discussion is that because we cannot get past the necessity of the fall (the milk of this concept) in order to know good or evil, thus we can never get to the meat of what it was that Satan was really trying to do when he tempted Adam and Eve and what exactly he intended to ruin of G-d’s plan.

The Traveler

Do you believe that Satan intendeded for humanity to remain permanently subjugated to him?0

[Traveler]

Adam and Eve already had a righteous understanding of good and evil--the best, purest understanding. They did what God commanded. This was good. They did not do what God prohibited, because that was bad. It's like the old parent cliche, "I don't have to wallow in mud to know it's dirty." God was truly disappointed by Adam and Eve's sin, and issued punishment, along with hope (especially Genesis 3:15).

So there was no tree of knowledge of good and evil - just a tree of knowledge of evil? You should tell G-d he really messed up in the writing of Genesis. I see this as a major contradicition on many interpretations of Genesis. Adam and Eve as they were in Eden had no knowledge of good or evil - otherwise the tree was meaningless.

Everything. God gave them "the breath of life." The Garden is his provision. Daily they walk with their Creator. Clearly there was a meaningful relationship between them.

We are talking about what they depended on. They would continue to live with out the Daily walk. It may have been a meaningful relationship but man had no dependencies on G-d while they were in Eden.

My understanding is that Satan rebelled because he wanted supremacy, not because he disagreed with God's redemption plans for us. I'm guessing that you are referencing teachings that are unique to your church.

I believe the scripture you refer to is Satan saying he wanted to be "like" G-d - which was a lie. We have a clear view of his rebelion as we live on earth currentlly. His desire to to take away man's agency. And yes that is LDS scripture.

Adam and Eve had personal and direct intimate relationship with God. They walked with him daily. They knew that he and his words were good, and that all else was evil. What Satan offered them was the experience of evil.

Adam and Eve also had direct and intimate relationship with Satan - plus the fact that they could not (because G-d did not allow them to) have any way of knowing which (G-d or Satan) was good and which was bad. For all they knew they were both the same and both good. You are making assumptions that the scriptures clearly do not make. Adam and Eve did not and could not tell who was good and who was evil - they did not know the difference!

If you believe this why do you trust G-d? You said before that all these things happened as a punishment. If G-d punishes those that are innocent then he is not a just G-d.

We certainly can and do commune with God--again, so did Adam and Eve, even prior to the Fall. We can experience his presence, his love, his strength, his direction, his annointing, his healing...his life. But, yes, we will always be his creation, and he, our Creator.

This is not a commune for there is no common. According to your defination G-d may tell you things but you do not understand G-d are anything of him - you only think you do but only at you inferior level. You cannot experience creatorism so your impressions are all incomplete and will always be incomplete. You do not experience his love only your impressions of his love which is nothing of his impressions because he is creator and you are created. You have no real relationship - you think you do because you are the creataed but you cannot have a creator to creator relationship -- ever.

LDS doctrine is that G-d is our father in heaven and you child does not have a real relationship with you until they are a responsible adult. In your thinking you will never be able to deal with G-d as an adult. A two year old does not have a relationship with their parents - they do not have meaningful discussions - they are all one sided discussions. In LDS doctrine G-d allows and encourages his children to grow up to be adults. That is the difference.

Do you believe that Satan intendeded for humanity to remain permanently subjugated to him?

yes but it was not in the taking of the fruit it was in something else that Satan did in Eden - but because we are so far apart on other matters I am not sure I should go forward with this.

The Traveler

[wordzee]

Prison chaplain said:

I agree with everything you just said. The notion that the Fall was a necessity, and that God "wanted" it to happen so that the plan of salvation could play out is what I was addressing. My view is expressed in Romans 6. Paul asks whether we should sin, so that grace may abound. He says, "God forbid!" Likewise, while mercy and salvation came out of the Fall, the Church's view of it should remain that we failed God, imho.

Whoa, this was Heavenly Father's first two children to be on the earth. This was the beginning of our time. Are you suggesting that Heavenly Father didn't have it all under control? Of course He knew what was going to happen. He knows everything from the beginning to the end.

Why do we insist on trying to see His way through our limited view? The fact is that He knew exactly what was going to happen. He planned it that way.

Do you suppose we are not to sin at all? Why then was His Son nailed to a cross for you? Why did he bleed from every pore to atone for our sins? Why did He even come? Because we sin. We all sin and come short of the Glory of God! Was that a mistake too? I think not!!!!!

My passion and intense appreciation of the Sacrifice of our Savior Jesus Christ is far dearer to me than anything on this earth. I've felt a touch of the horrifying realty of what my life would be like if He had not died for me. Every day in every way, my sins are lessened by His Atoning Blood. This was no mistake. It was not a horrible act that was forced upon Him because God made a mistake and didn't know that Adam and Eve would transgress. Oh no! As in Adam all men died, so in Christ all have been made alive. Heavenly Father knows all, is in all, through all. I can believe in Him, trust Him, follow Him because of this very reason.

Maybe I misunderstand you. If so, happy day!

[prisonchaplain]

So there was no tree of knowledge of good and evil - just a tree of knowledge of evil? You should tell G-d he really messed up in the writing of Genesis. I see this as a major contradicition on many interpretations of Genesis. Adam and Eve as they were in Eden had no knowledge of good or evil - otherwise the tree was meaningless.

Quite frankly, "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil" could have been any tree God prohibited. The knowledge came through the act of rebellion--it was the knowledge of participation. Now that they had sinned, they "knew" goodness in a new way. The tree gave them a means of obedience and disobedience.

We are talking about what they depended on. They would continue to live with out the Daily walk. It may have been a meaningful relationship but man had no dependencies on G-d while they were in Eden.

I would agree that the Fall helped us apprehend our dependency on God. However, it would be speculation to assume that Adam and Eve took their blessings totally for granted.

I believe the scripture you refer to is Satan saying he wanted to be "like" G-d - which was a lie. We have a clear view of his rebelion as we live on earth currentlly. His desire to to take away man's agency. And yes that is LDS scripture.

The Serpent's tempting offer to Adam and Eve was that if they would eat the fruit, THEY could become like God, knowing good from evil. It was a half-truth. Sure enough, like God, they came to know good and evil. But, no, they did not become like God, and continued to depend on him.

Adam and Eve also had direct and intimate relationship with Satan - plus the fact that they could not (because G-d did not allow them to) have any way of knowing which (G-d or Satan) was good and which was bad. For all they knew they were both the same and both good. You are making assumptions that the scriptures clearly do not make. Adam and Eve did not and could not tell who was good and who was evil - they did not know the difference!

I find no references to Adam and Eve walking daily with Satan. And, yes, I assume that if God held Adam and Eve accountable for obeying his command not to eat from the tree, then when Satan tempted them to do so, they knew it was wrong. They knew God's command was good and disobeying was bad. What the Fall did was give them the experience of disobedience--of evil--a new knowledge and new perspective.

If you believe this why do you trust G-d? You said before that all these things happened as a punishment. If G-d punishes those that are innocent then he is not a just G-d.

Adam and Eve were not innocent. They knew God's command--God's word. They had the daily communion with him. When Satan tempted them, they knew it was a different voice, and that they were being called to disobedience. They were guilty, and Gen. 3 spells out punishments for all 3.

This is not a commune for there is no common. According to your defination G-d may tell you things but you do not understand G-d are anything of him - you only think you do but only at you inferior level. You cannot experience creatorism so your impressions are all incomplete and will always be incomplete. You do not experience his love only your impressions of his love which is nothing of his impressions because he is creator and you are created. You have no real relationship - you think you do because you are the creataed but you cannot have a creator to creator relationship -- ever.

LDS doctrine is that G-d is our father in heaven and you child does not have a real relationship with you until they are a responsible adult. In your thinking you will never be able to deal with G-d as an adult. A two year old does not have a relationship with their parents - they do not have meaningful discussions - they are all one sided discussions. In LDS doctrine G-d allows and encourages his children to grow up to be adults. That is the difference.

It is a huge difference, and there is no way around it. I have never assumed, and the Scripture I have has never informed me, that I need the ability of eventually being of the same divine nature with him, in order to have a deeply meaningful, eternally fulfilling relationship with him. You have added revelations that have led you to believe otherwise. The implications of our beliefs lead us to totally different paradigms.

yes but it was not in the taking of the fruit it was in something else that Satan did in Eden - but because we are so far apart on other matters I am not sure I should go forward with this.

The Traveler

Sometimes it is healthy to allow dialogue to digest. I do find it ironic that, to oversimplify, you believe Satan wanted to keep humanity in submission to God and his immediate children, while I believe that Satan was, at least in a sense, tempting Adam and Eve with the very promise you suggest--that they could become like God.

Wordzee, God foreknew that Adam & Eve would sin, but, it was their decision to do so. They did not have to. God was ready, with a costly plan of redemption. However, then, as now, it's always better to choose the way of righteousness.

If you understood me to downplay or dismiss God's mercy or forgiveness in anyway, you may discard such notions. God is great, full of mercy and forgiveness.

[the Ogre]

My view is expressed in Romans 6. Paul asks whether we should sin, so that grace may abound. He says, "God forbid!" Likewise, while mercy and salvation came out of the Fall, the Church's view of it should remain that we failed God, imho.

Exactly and through grace and the atonement, we may find forgiveness.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

So there was no tree of knowledge of good and evil - just a tree of knowledge of evil? You should tell G-d he really messed up in the writing of Genesis. I see this as a major contradicition on many interpretations of Genesis. Adam and Eve as they were in Eden had no knowledge of good or evil - otherwise the tree was meaningless.

Quite frankly, "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil" could have been any tree God prohibited. The knowledge came through the act of rebellion--it was the knowledge of participation. Now that they had sinned, they "knew" goodness in a new way. The tree gave them a means of obedience and disobedience.

We are talking about what they depended on. They would continue to live with out the Daily walk. It may have been a meaningful relationship but man had no dependencies on G-d while they were in Eden.

I would agree that the Fall helped us apprehend our dependency on God. However, it would be speculation to assume that Adam and Eve took their blessings totally for granted.

I believe the scripture you refer to is Satan saying he wanted to be "like" G-d - which was a lie. We have a clear view of his rebelion as we live on earth currentlly. His desire to to take away man's agency. And yes that is LDS scripture.

The Serpent's tempting offer to Adam and Eve was that if they would eat the fruit, THEY could become like God, knowing good from evil. It was a half-truth. Sure enough, like God, they came to know good and evil. But, no, they did not become like God, and continued to depend on him.

Adam and Eve also had direct and intimate relationship with Satan - plus the fact that they could not (because G-d did not allow them to) have any way of knowing which (G-d or Satan) was good and which was bad. For all they knew they were both the same and both good. You are making assumptions that the scriptures clearly do not make. Adam and Eve did not and could not tell who was good and who was evil - they did not know the difference!

I find no references to Adam and Eve walking daily with Satan. And, yes, I assume that if God held Adam and Eve accountable for obeying his command not to eat from the tree, then when Satan tempted them to do so, they knew it was wrong. They knew God's command was good and disobeying was bad. What the Fall did was give them the experience of disobedience--of evil--a new knowledge and new perspective.

If you believe this why do you trust G-d? You said before that all these things happened as a punishment. If G-d punishes those that are innocent then he is not a just G-d.

Adam and Eve were not innocent. They knew God's command--God's word. They had the daily communion with him. When Satan tempted them, they knew it was a different voice, and that they were being called to disobedience. They were guilty, and Gen. 3 spells out punishments for all 3.

This is not a commune for there is no common. According to your defination G-d may tell you things but you do not understand G-d are anything of him - you only think you do but only at you inferior level. You cannot experience creatorism so your impressions are all incomplete and will always be incomplete. You do not experience his love only your impressions of his love which is nothing of his impressions because he is creator and you are created. You have no real relationship - you think you do because you are the creataed but you cannot have a creator to creator relationship -- ever.

LDS doctrine is that G-d is our father in heaven and you child does not have a real relationship with you until they are a responsible adult. In your thinking you will never be able to deal with G-d as an adult. A two year old does not have a relationship with their parents - they do not have meaningful discussions - they are all one sided discussions. In LDS doctrine G-d allows and encourages his children to grow up to be adults. That is the difference.

It is a huge difference, and there is no way around it. I have never assumed, and the Scripture I have has never informed me, that I need the ability of eventually being of the same divine nature with him, in order to have a deeply meaningful, eternally fulfilling relationship with him. You have added revelations that have led you to believe otherwise. The implications of our beliefs lead us to totally different paradigms.

yes but it was not in the taking of the fruit it was in something else that Satan did in Eden - but because we are so far apart on other matters I am not sure I should go forward with this.

The Traveler

Sometimes it is healthy to allow dialogue to digest. I do find it ironic that, to oversimplify, you believe Satan wanted to keep humanity in submission to God and his immediate children, while I believe that Satan was, at least in a sense, tempting Adam and Eve with the very promise you suggest--that they could become like God.

Wordzee, God foreknew that Adam & Eve would sin, but, it was their decision to do so. They did not have to. God was ready, with a costly plan of redemption. However, then, as now, it's always better to choose the way of righteousness.

If you understood me to downplay or dismiss God's mercy or forgiveness in anyway, you may discard such notions. God is great, full of mercy and forgiveness.

I am sorry PC but you are 100% wrong about the rebellion thing and the scriptures prove it. See Genesis 3:13. As we consider this scripture one must realize that it is impossible to lie before G-d to his face. And what did Eve say was the reason she ate of the fruit? Did she say - as an act of rebellion? No!!!!. She was "Beguiled" or deceived by Satan.

Eve did not know what she really was doing and this is a most important key to understanding the fall - that is what beguiled means - She did not know that Satan was not telling the truth. I do not believe any of us should judge Adam and Eve or any one else for that matter so harshly as to call their confusion or acting when they have not known better - an act of rebellion.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Impossible to lie before God? That does not make sense. When we lie, we lie before him every time.

[prisonchaplain]

I am sorry PC but you are 100% wrong about the rebellion thing and the scriptures prove it. See Genesis 3:13. As we consider this scripture one must realize that it is impossible to lie before G-d to his face. And what did Eve say was the reason she ate of the fruit? Did she say - as an act of rebellion? No!!!!. She was "Beguiled" or deceived by Satan.

The Serpent asks if God prohibited her from eating from the trees in the garden. No, she responds, only the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is prohibited. We eat from it and we die. Sure you will not die, the Serpent lies.

She knew what God had said. She knew that the Serpent directly contradicted what God had said. She had daily communion with God, and understood that it was He that had provided for her. She was deceived because she wanted the fruit, and the promise of godlikeness that came with it.

Eve did not know what she really was doing and this is a most important key to understanding the fall - that is what beguiled means - She did not know that Satan was not telling the truth. I do not believe any of us should judge Adam and Eve or any one else for that matter so harshly as to call their confusion or acting when they have not known better - an act of rebellion.

No, I'll let God be the judge:

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;

through painful toil you will eat of it

all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,

and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow

you will eat your food

until you return to the ground,

since from it you were taken;

for dust you are

and to dust you will return." NIV

God issues punishment because of Adam's disobedience. The punishment means no eternal life in paradise, and a much more difficult subsistence.