omegaseamaster75 Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 I mentioned this in another thread, but I suspect if Ave Marie were in our hymn book people would have a problem with that........ Blackmarch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 I mentioned this in another thread, but I suspect if Ave Marie were in our hymn book people would have a problem with that........ Well, yeah. It's a Catholic prayer to the virgin Mary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Well, yeah. It's a Catholic prayer to the virgin Mary.Funny you should mention that since our church considers our hymns prayers as well..... so it's OK if it's Joseph Smith, but not if it's the mother of Christ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 "Ave Maria" is praying to Mary for specific things. "Praise to the Man" is celebrating the Prophet of the Restoration, and as a hymn is a prayer to Heavenly Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Ave Maria as a "Hymn" would also be a prayer to Heavenly Father as well by your definition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Except that it specifically addresses Mary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Funny you should mention that since our church considers our hymns prayers as well..... so it's OK if it's Joseph Smith, but not if it's the mother of Christ? Maybe you should take a look at the translation of Ave Maria...maybe google it a bit...wikipedia even...and then maybe you'll understand how it's decidedly different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdfxdb Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) .. Edited October 22, 2014 by mdfxdb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 As a "hymn" it would not be a prayer to Mary by our definition Hail Mary, full of grace,Mary, full of grace,Mary, full of grace,Hail, Hail, the LordThe Lord is with thee.Blessed art thou among women, and blessed,Blessed is the fruit of thy womb,Thy womb, Jesus.Hail Mary! Holy Mary, Mother of God,Pray for us sinners,Pray, pray for us;Pray for us sinners,Now, and at the hour of our death,The hour of our death.The hour, the hour of our death,The hour of our death.Hail Mary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdfxdb Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think the heartburn is where it says "pray for us sinners" am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 As a "hymn" it would not be a prayer to Mary by our definition You keep harping on this, but you're missing the point. It already IS a prayer to Mary as per Catholicism. Therefore, we do not include it. It's not that complicated. Leah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think the heartburn is where it says "pray for us sinners" am I right? No. The heartburn is that it is an established Catholic prayer. We also don't use the cross in our worship for similar reasons. There's nothing specifically wrong with the cross. But there are specific reasons we do not utilize it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Funny you should mention that since our church considers our hymns prayers as well..... so it's OK if it's Joseph Smith, but not if it's the mother of Christ? Ave Maria as a "Hymn" would also be a prayer to Heavenly Father as well by your definition As a "hymn" it would not be a prayer to Mary by our definition If I'm reading all these correctly, there seems to be confusion on whether a Hymn is a Prayer. This is fairly simple... a Hymn is... a religious song. Now, a religious song can be about different things. There are Hymns of Prayer, Hymns of Worship, Hymns of Praise, Hymns of Celebration of Triumph, Hymns of Adoration, Hymns of Hope... Hymns of every other spiritual thing... Praise to the Man... as clearly indicated in the title, is a Hymn of Praise... specifically Praise to Joseph Smith, the Man who communed with Jehovah... Ave Maria... as clearly indicated by Catholics, is a Hymn of Prayer. Now, I used to be the Primary Song Leader. Before I teach a song, I first go over the history of the song. I do this so that the Primary kids will know first and foremost, the original intent/purpose of the hymn. Now, when a singer sings a song, they can override the original intent and push their own intent into the song. But, when singing as a congregation or as a choir, usually, you're singing in the spirit of the original intent of the song. So, if the LDS ward starts singing Ave Maria, the intent would be to pray for Mary's intercession... something that we don't do in the LDS Church because we follow the template set forth by Christ - to pray to the Father in the name of Christ. Of course, if you're singing Ave Maria in some performance or some bathroom somewhere and you want to push your own intent into the song, you are free to do so. I think the heartburn is where it says "pray for us sinners" am I right? No. The heartburn is that it is an established Catholic prayer. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 This. *sigh of relief* I'm always so nervous when I post something about Catholicism that anatess is going to come in and tear me a new one for my stupidity. :) jerome1232 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) *sigh of relief* I'm always so nervous when I post something about Catholicism that anatess is going to come in and tear me a new one for my stupidity. :) I'm all for tearing you a new one ... but, it will snow in Miami before it will be for your stupidity. Edit: I just googled it and it did snow in Miami 37 years ago! Not Miami... Mindanao! Edited October 23, 2014 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 You keep harping on this, but you're missing the point. It already IS a prayer to Mary as per Catholicism. Therefore, we do not include it. It's not that complicated.I read the lyrics like most Catholic prayers they are asking Mary to pray for them to the Father. As a song it is beautiful. We ask others to pray on our behalf all of the time. I fail to see how Ave Mary should be excluded.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 I read the lyrics like most Catholic prayers they are asking Mary to pray for them to the Father. As a song it is beautiful. We ask others to pray on our behalf all of the time. I fail to see how Ave Mary should be excluded.... One more time... Because it is a Prayer. It is the song version of a section from the Holy Rosary. And LDS don't pray like that. So, if you want to praise Mary... come up with your own lyrics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerome1232 Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Find one other hymn asking a dead person to pray on our behalf and maybe you might have an argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) Find one other hymn asking a dead person to pray on our behalf and maybe you might have an argument. This is not even the point. Asking our dead to pray for us is just fine. It's not much different than asking live people in the temple to pray for us. We don't pray to them to intercede on our behalf... but we can ASK them to do so... which can either be by means of conversation, letter, or... yes, song. But Ave Maria is a PRAYER. You can insist it isn't - that it's just asking somebody to pray for us - but you will have a whole bunch of Catholics looking at you funny. Edited October 23, 2014 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerome1232 Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) I feel it is relevant, there is no example of a hymn that asks someone who is dead to pray for us, the hymn is not comparable to praise to the man in anyway shape or form. It's exclusion is unremarkable.Although I can't back myself up atm (Baby is screaming at me at this very moment) I feel fairly confident we do not pray to anyone asking them to intercede on our behalf, live or dead, ever. Only Christ intercedes on our behalf to the Father.I feel there is a difference between asking a person to pray for you, to praying to someone to pray for you. I can't pinpoint why right now. Edited October 23, 2014 by jerome1232 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 By asking someone to pray for us are we not asking them to intercede for us? This happens all the time, we believe that the accumulation of prayers will have greater impact than one solo prayer...is this not so? As far as Mary being dead......our church is ripe with a history of past prophets and angels visiting and offering guidance and direction to our leaders......those guys are all dead too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 I feel it is relevant, there is no example of a hymn that asks someone who is dead to pray for us, the hymn is not comparable to praise to the man in anyway shape or form. It's exclusion is unremarkable.Although I can't back myself up atm (Baby is screaming at me at this very moment) I feel fairly confident we do not pray to anyone asking them to intercede on our behalf, live or dead, ever. Only Christ intercedes on our behalf to the Father.I feel there is a difference between asking a person to pray for you, to praying to someone to pray for you. I can't pinpoint why right now. We don't PRAY to them to intercede in our behalf but every single day that the Temple is open, temple workers pray for those who send their prayer requests in through the temple rolls. This is no different than asking somebody - dead or alive - to pray for whatever prayer requests we have. For a Catholic - Ave Maria is a prayer. For an LDS who has never heard of the word Catholic or the Rosary, the Ave Maria would be just another prayer request - not a prayer. Sure, we don't have a prayer request made into a hymn... YET. But there's no rule against doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerome1232 Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 I admit that I can follow your logic, but like I said, something doesn't fit right for me.Hopefully I have time to fully think this out later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 # 23 We ever pray for thee #114 secret prayer #145 prayer is the souls sincere desire 190 of the 358 hymns come from non-Lds sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) # 23 We ever pray for thee #114 secret prayer #145 prayer is the souls sincere desire 190 of the 358 hymns come from non-Lds sources. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. What exactly do these hymns have anything to do with what we're talking about??? Just because a song is talking about a prayer doesn't make the song a prayer. Edited October 23, 2014 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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