prisonchaplain Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Well...that's what I read into PC's point anyhow. Maybe I'm way off. I was responding to the "tongues = good, IRS regulations = bad." A respondent queried: :And what if the tongues would speak in a devlish kind or wrong way? My answer is that if there is a devilish wrong way of speaking the gift of tongues, then there must needs be an authentic gift of tongues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) I'm not so sure this is a movement as much as a natural result of the horrible things people have done to their "neighbors" over the years. I don't distrust my neighbors in the name of my family's safety because of some movement. I simply distrust others because, you know, they kidnap, molest, kill, lie, steal, preach false ideologies, and are, generally, wicked. Obviously, if I know my neighbor, and learn otherwise about them, then trust is built. Otherwise...uh...yeah...I think I'll put my family's safety first.Yet this results in the breakdown of community, which is best in ensuring safety. The concept your neighbors are evil murderers until proven otherwise is a dangerous one. Why aren't we getting to know our neighbors? Satan would have us refuse to build community. Edited November 12, 2014 by Backroads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 The concept your neighbors are evil murderers until proven otherwise is a dangerous one. Only if it's false. If it's true, it's decidedly, a very safe concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Except you are assuming the worst instead of learning about your neighbors and getting real information. That's dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsifer42 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 It seems there is large disagreement on the forums as to what is good and what is not. What some see as counterfeit others see as good things. Like, I think tolerance is a great thing, TFP thinks it's a counterfeit to love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 It seems there is large disagreement on the forums as to what is good and what is not. What some see as counterfeit others see as good things. Like, I think tolerance is a great thing, TFP thinks it's a counterfeit to love. Tolerance is not a good thing, nor is it a bad thing. It is entirely neutral. Tolerance is rendered good or bad by what is being tolerated. Some things should not be tolerated. Whereas love is a good thing--always, which means using tolerance as an indication of love is replacing something good with something neutral, and perhaps applied to something bad, and it is thereby a counterfeit. It is a false equation to say that if I love my neighbor that I will strictly tolerate all their doings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Except you are assuming the worst instead of learning about your neighbors and getting real information. That's dangerous. You honestly assume that all your neighbor's intentions are good and righteous? You have no problem sending your children and/or loved ones to hang with anyone? Any neighborhood? Anywhere? Because...how dare we make such an assumption? Those gangsters hanging on the corner are probably good people at heart, so, sure Johnny, go play with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsifer42 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Tolerance is not a good thing, nor is it a bad thing. It is entirely neutral. Tolerance is rendered good or bad by what is being tolerated. Some things should not be tolerated. Whereas love is a good thing--always, which means using tolerance as an indication of love is replacing something good with something neutral, and perhaps applied to something bad, and it is thereby a counterfeit. It is a false equation to say that if I love my neighbor that I will strictly tolerate all their doings. Counterfeit (and the OP can correct me if I'm wrong) as used in this thread is the tool of Satan to make us leave something good for something that looks similar, but eventually leaves us empty. For example, a counterfeit for love could be promiscuity. They look similar, and can, at times, even feel similar, but to be active in one makes you forgo the other. You can be both loving and tolerant (toward things that deserve to be tolerated). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 It seems there is large disagreement on the forums as to what is good and what is not. What some see as counterfeit others see as good things. Like, I think tolerance is a great thing, TFP thinks it's a counterfeit to love. "The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance." President Monson - April 2008 “Tolerance is a word valuable in the service of Satan."Ezra Taft Benson - October 1971 "Be wary, therefore, when some demand public tolerance for whatever their private indulgences are!" - Neal A. Maxwell 2000 Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it. The permissiveness afforded by the weakening of the laws of the land to tolerate legalized acts of immorality does not reduce the serious spiritual consequence that is the result of the violation of God’s law of chastity. - Boyd K. Packer April 2013 Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsifer42 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 "The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance." President Monson - April 2008 “Tolerance is a word valuable in the service of Satan."Ezra Taft Benson - October 1971 "Be wary, therefore, when some demand public tolerance for whatever their private indulgences are!" - Neal A. Maxwell 2000 Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it. The permissiveness afforded by the weakening of the laws of the land to tolerate legalized acts of immorality does not reduce the serious spiritual consequence that is the result of the violation of God’s law of chastity. - Boyd K. Packer April 2013 I would answer with you with your final quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 You honestly assume that all your neighbor's intentions are good and righteous? You have no problem sending your children and/or loved ones to hang with anyone? Any neighborhood? Anywhere? Because...how dare we make such an assumption? Those gangsters hanging on the corner are probably good people at heart, so, sure Johnny, go play with them.Never said that. But I am against the notion we should shield ourselves unduly and avoid building a support network. Communities where there is a network are safer. Your argument seems to be we should avoid community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) On this counterfeit/good confusion, I submit Satan wants such confusion? One would think it would be more stark. Edited November 13, 2014 by Backroads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Counterfeit (and the OP can correct me if I'm wrong) as used in this thread is the tool of Satan to make us leave something good for something that looks similar, but eventually leaves us empty. For example, a counterfeit for love could be promiscuity. They look similar, and can, at times, even feel similar, but to be active in one makes you forgo the other. You can be both loving and tolerant (toward things that deserve to be tolerated). Exactly. You can be both loving and tolerant. But you can also be loving and intolerant. And, moreover, you can be tolerant and not loving, but claim you love because you're tolerant. This is the counterfeit of which I speak. Tolerance is used as a tool to turn people away from right principles, of which love is the real core, by accepting things that they should not be accepting. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Your argument seems to be we should avoid community. No. Not what I mean. What I am arguing is that when I am wary of my neighbors it's because I've seen horrible things in the world, not because of some movement. I think I see your point now though. We can, indeed, shield ourselves unduly. But, as with a lot of these things, it isn't black and white. And a bit difficult to even explain and fully comprehend the intricacies of it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsifer42 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Exactly. You can be both loving and tolerant. But you can also be loving and intolerant. And, moreover, you can be tolerant and not loving, but claim you love because you're tolerant. This is the counterfeit of which I speak. Tolerance is used as a tool to turn people away from right principles, of which love is the real core, by accepting things that they should not be accepting. Tolerance does not equal acceptance. I think this may be where you're mixed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 TFP isn't stupid, it's clear he is speaking about the faux "tolerance" social sentiment raining down on us from that great and spacious building. ...duh You know that kind that castigates traditional family as a social blight, tears down public religious displays, shut's out and silences opposing views. ...basically most college campuses. Isn't it obvious that tolerance is less a virtue now days and more a vice. Leah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsifer42 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 TFP isn't stupid, it's clear he is speaking about the faux "tolerance" social sentiment raining down on us from that great and spacious building. ...duh You know that kind that castigates traditional family as a social blight, tears down public religious displays, shut's out and silences opposing views. ...basically most college campuses. Isn't it obvious that tolerance is less a virtue now days and more a vice. Tolerance is always a virtue, acceptance, being called tolerance, is today's vice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) Never said that. But I am against the notion we should shield ourselves unduly and avoid building a support network. Communities where there is a network are safer. Your argument seems to be we should avoid community. Your example is better displayed, I think, in the following scenarios - a common one that we, LDS folks, are prone towards. 1.) I'm not going to give out treats to kids because I'd rather be safe than cause a kid to die of allergies.2.) I'm not going to accept gifts from my neighbors because I'd rather be safe than risk dying of poisoned cookies.3.) I'm not going to help out a stranded individual on the highway because I'd rather be safe than find out that the stranded individual is actually a criminal looking for his next victim.4.) I'm not going to allow a man to open my door for me (me being a woman) because I fear he's going to think me subservient and take advantage of me.5.) I'd rather have people grope my privates than get on an airplane hijacked by terrorists.etc., etc., ad nauseum People live in fear. Fear is a tool wielded by the adversary. Edited November 13, 2014 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Tolerance does not equal acceptance. I think this may be where you're mixed up. Tolerance is a form of acceptance. Very much. Clearly. Blatantly. Yes. It is. Leah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 TFP isn't stupid Prove it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Tolerance is always a virtue, acceptance, being called tolerance, is today's vice. It seems to me that you don't even know what tolerance actually means. Perhaps you could share your definition so we can communicate clearly without a useless, "Yes it is," "No it isn't," "Uh-huh," "Nuh-uh," dialogue continuing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsifer42 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Tolerance is a form of acceptance. Very much. Clearly. Blatantly. Yes. It is. Tolerance comes from the word 'tolerate'. When you think of 'tolerating' another's screaming child on an airplane are you thinking, "I sure do accept them letting their kid scream while they do nothing."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Tolerance comes from the word 'tolerate'. When you think of 'tolerating' another's screaming child on an airplane are you thinking, "I sure do accept them letting their kid scream while they do nothing."? Of course you accept it. The alternative would be to kill the child, gag them, jump off the plane to your death, or -- perhaps best choice -- put on some noise cancelling headphones so you don't have to listen. You accept it because alternatives are inappropriate, illegal, and/or morally wrong. Turn the question around. If you refuse to tolerate the screaming kid, what does that mean to you. You just sit there and stew. Because that's still tolerating. I tolerate, for example, my HOA fees. If I didn't, I'd move, or refuse to pay them and then be forced to move when evicted. But I sit and stew about them all the time. Stupid HOA!! To tolerate does not mean to like. It means to put up with. To accept, regardless of disagreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsifer42 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Of course you accept it. The alternative would be to kill the child, gag them, jump off the plane to your death, or -- perhaps best choice -- put on some noise cancelling headphones so you don't have to listen. You accept it because alternatives are inappropriate, illegal, and/or morally wrong. Turn the question around. If you refuse to tolerate the screaming kid, what does that mean to you. You just sit there and stew. Because that's still tolerating. I tolerate, for example, my HOA fees. If I didn't, I'd move, or refuse to pay them and then be forced to move when evicted. But I sit and stew about them all the time. Stupid HOA!! To tolerate does not mean to like. It means to put up with. To accept, regardless of disagreement. Acceptance adds a level to toleration. Toleration is where you continue to allow something to exist. To accept is to, at least on some level, agree with it. Do I tolerate the child on the plane? Yes, I don't do the things you mentioned. Do I accept that child? No. I think their actions are unacceptable, as are the actions of their parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 To accept is to, at least on some level, agree with it. Since when? I accept many, many things that I don't agree with in any regard. Obama as President comes to mind, for one. I think you're the one confusing things. Acceptance does not mean the embracing of. The only difference between tolerance and acceptance is that tolerance, by definition, requires disagreement whereas acceptance does not. Tolerance is, literally, accepting something that you disagree with. With acceptance you may or may not agree. If you do not, it is tolerance. In other words, acceptance is not always tolerance, but tolerance is always acceptance. Windseeker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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