angels and worm holes

[askandanswer]

Do the events referred to in Joseph Smith - History verse 42 describe an angel travelling through a wormhole?

 

43 After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

[Vort]

No, it describes the end of an angelic visitation.

 

"Wormholes" are a recent theoretical construct. It's always fun to take popular ideas and shoehorn them into some aspect of the gospel. Perhaps this is a harmless pastime, but you need to make sure you keep imaginitive ideas distinct in your mind from the gospel and its teachings.

[Guest]

[Guest intra]

wormholes only connect parts of a universe with the same universe. 
from a spacetime to a spacetime. 

so, is "heaven" where the angels dwell, the same physical universe as the one our flesh dwells in? 

no? then cannot be a wormhole. 

yes? then why do we need God? all we need is a good spaceship. 

personally i would say "no" -- because i have on unshakable authority that no one can reach God with a sufficiently well engineered spaceship. one must enter the sheepfold through the door :) 

 

[Blackmarch]

Do the events referred to in Joseph Smith - History verse 42 describe an angel travelling through a wormhole?

 

43 After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

actually that is one event that causes me to believe FTL is possible.... however that doesnt necessarily mean its a worm hole.

the original definition of a wormhole was a type of a black hole that warped spacetime in such a way as to be able to loop back to our space time at another location and cause a "white hole".  (paraphrased)

or connect to a different universe.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Blackmarch

[Traveler]

As some posters have offered opinions - we are dealing with speculation.  The concept of a wormhole was invented by Carl Sagan to create intrigue for a novel titled "Contact" that was later made into a movie.  If anyone is really interested I can explain why the initial concept included the inclusion of two black holes or we can explorer together theoretical speculations.  The point of a wormhole is to adjoin two distant points in space time.  If we use this as a standard definition the probable existence of wormholes takes on the possibility that there are types and classes of wormholes.  Some of which could join points not only in our universe but different universes - including universes of differing dimensions. 

 

The grand problem of wormholes is stability.  Quantum physics does support a possibility of wormholes but maintaining stability of a wormhole for any practice use is theoretically impossible.  In short - all the mathematics that leaves any possibility for any currently conceived wormhole requires an incredible amount of energy for any kind of control - that prevents any intended use of a wormhole.

 

Is there a possibility that Joseph Smith saw divine beings using a wormhole to travel vast distances?   I personally find the possibly far move believable than considering possibilities of magic that breaks down the "order" by which G-d creates and governs his creations.

[Blackmarch]

pretty sure that wormhole theory was around before Sagan's Contact (early as 1935)... or you just saying he coined the popular name for it?

Edited December 8, 2014 by Blackmarch

[Traveler]

pretty sure that wormhole theory was around before Sagan's Contact... or you just saying he coined the popular name for it?

 

Sagan came up with the term wormhole and the mathematics, science and idea that a wormhole could be established between two black holes.  The recent movie - "Interstellar Space" exploits the idea or "theory" of escaping a black hole via quantum evaporation or tunneling to distant points of space - which would be a class or type of worm hole quite different that initially conceived by Sagan or used previously in the same movie "Interstellar Space".

[Guest intra]

Sagan came up with the term wormhole and the mathematics, science and idea that a wormhole could be established between two black holes.  

actually the physics was first posited in a 1935 paper by Albert Einstein & Nathan Rosen to explain how singularities implied by the mathematics of Einstein's relativity theory are avoided. 

Sagan was born in 1934. he was among the first to popularize the idea in fiction, but not the origin of the theoretical physics or the mathematics. 

wormholes are basically extreme curvature of space-time. they can't connect two disparate universes. they only connect different points in spacetime of the same universe. if you take a sheet of paper and draw two dots on it, you can fold the paper so that one dot lies on top of another - that would be like a wormhole. travel is still possible between the dots without using the wormhole, but requires traveling a much greater distance. traveling between universes would be like dots on completely different pieces of paper. no amount of folding one sheet of paper connects it to another sheet. for that, you would need a bit of glue! 

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 

(Colossians 1:17) 

 

[Blackmarch]

Actually I'd have to say that this is the first time i've seen Sagan's name attached to a wormhole theory, so i'l lhave to do some digging around.

 

If i recall right it was einstein-rosen that made a theory which was able to operate in einstein space, but not the first to introduce the idea. and that they were termed Handles before they were called wormholes.

[Saul Hudson]

Whatever you want to call it, it is something that allowed him to come from a spiritual realm to this one.

[askandanswer]

wormholes only connect parts of a universe with the same universe. 

from a spacetime to a spacetime. 

so, is "heaven" where the angels dwell, the same physical universe as the one our flesh dwells in? 

no? then cannot be a wormhole. 

yes? then why do we need God? all we need is a good spaceship. 

personally i would say "no" -- because i have on unshakable authority that no one can reach God with a sufficiently well engineered spaceship. one must enter the sheepfold through the door :) 

 

 

Abraham 3:3, 4, 9 and 16 suggest, but do not definitively state, that God dwells in the physical universe as we know it. This idea is supported by the fact that God will eventually end up dwelling with us, on a celestialised Earth, although admittedly, I supposed its possible that this celestialised earth could be transferred to somewhere out of this physical universe. 

 

I suspect that a well built space ship could hie to Kolob, thereby bringing the occupants thereof closer to God, but with God being the ultimate source of all truth and knowledge, I doubt that He will ever give us the knowledge needed to build one and the second coming will probably occur well before we could figure out for ourselves how to build such a ship.

[askandanswer]

 

 

The grand problem of wormholes is stability.  Quantum physics does support a possibility of wormholes but maintaining stability of a wormhole for any practice use is theoretically impossible.  In short - all the mathematics that leaves any possibility for any currently conceived wormhole requires an incredible amount of energy for any kind of control - that prevents any intended use of a wormhole.

 

Is there a possibility that Joseph Smith saw divine beings using a wormhole to travel vast distances?   I personally find the possibly far move believable than considering possibilities of magic that breaks down the "order" by which G-d creates and governs his creations.

 

How much energy does it take to rearrange the electrons, proton and neurons that make up 6 waterpots of water into wine? Could the principles that made possible this miracle, when applied on a larger scale, produce the amount of energy needed to create and control a wormhole?

[askandanswer]

Nice to see you back again Eowyn, after the recent advancement of your father, even though you don't seem to have much to say   :)

[askandanswer]

Whatever you want to call it, it is something that allowed him to come from a spiritual realm to this one.

 

I'm not sure what this spiritual realm you are referring to is. Moroni, and most, probably all angels, are physical beings and I suspect they live in a place that is full of physical beings. This makes me think that Moroni, and others who have made the same trip, travelled from one physical realm to another, or, perhaps more accurately, from their part of this physical realm, to our part of the same realm.  

[FunkyTown]

 

How much energy does it take to rearrange the electrons, proton and neurons that make up 6 waterpots of water into wine? Could the principles that made possible this miracle, when applied on a larger scale, produce the amount of energy needed to create and control a wormhole?

 

We are firmly in to 'Pseudodoctrine' now.

What you're doing is harmless so long as you don't go around teaching it or believing it is central to the gospel.

The correct answer to all of your questions is, "We don't know. We weren't there."

When you see the Saviour next, ask him. He'll set you straight. Maybe you're right. Maybe you aren't.

[Blackmarch]

   

We are firmly in to 'Pseudodoctrine' now.

What you're doing is harmless so long as you don't go around teaching it or believing it is central to the gospel.

The correct answer to all of your questions is, "We don't know. We weren't there."

When you see the Saviour next, ask him. He'll set you straight. Maybe you're right. Maybe you aren't.

we're not even in doctrine now.

[Traveler]

Speculation is fun and on occasions helps understand things better - but the sad truth is that speculation is most often misleading.  Wormholes are speculation and a grand part of theoretical physics but there is to date no empirical evidence that wormholes exist or have ever existed or ever will exist.  Since the very concept is speculative in nature - it should not be that misplaced to apply speculation of spiritual understanding to our speculations of physical (space-time) speculations.

 

Despite the speculative arguments to catalog spiritual and physical stuff as unrelated - I see no actual reason to believe the differences to be such.  For all the differences that can be found in scripture between spiritual and physical ; I actually perceive even more differences between common bosons and fermions particles that comprise all matter in our universe. 

 

Spiritual stuff is an integral part of our universe - so much so that our universe cannot, will not and does not exist without it - and is dependent on spiritual stuff in order to continue exist.  To say spiritual stuff cannot be discerned by the physical is absurd - without spiritual stuff physical stuff cannot exist as organized matter.  The observation of organization and order in matter is the essence of discerning the existence of spiritual stuff and is as empirical as discerning individual electrons in a bubble chamber. 

 

If wormholes are possible - and I believe they are - I see no rational reason to believe that angles and other such divine beings would not take advantage of such things or even other things that we mortals have not speculated as of yet.  By what ever rational we accept the possibility that wormholes are possible - I believe someone to be most foolish and naive to suggest that G-d has not caused such possibility to actually be, without some useful and divine purpose.