death penalty

[CatholicLady]

This strikes me as particularly naive.

 

Lol ok.

[Guest]

The idea that anyone is redeemed in this lifetime.

 

 

Or that death ends the chance to be forgiven.

 

Oh, ok, I understand you now.

 

But, it's not an attitude.  It's a faith system.  The understanding of the Plan of Salvation past death is different between LDS and the rest of Christendom.

[Just_A_Guy]

Part of me, like Vort, suspects . . .

 

 

Another point MarginOfError and I agree on:  . .

 

I'm going to attempt to explain this...

 

Explain what--the pigs flying outside my window?

[Just_A_Guy]

This strikes me as particularly naive.

 

On the other hand--that dirtbag Dan Lafferty didn't repent in prison, and just enticed a couple in Utah to commit suicide and take three or four of their young kids with them--apparently the parents had visited him in prison shortly before their suicide.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

On the other hand--that dirtbag Dan Lafferty didn't repent in prison, and just enticed a couple in Utah to commit suicide and take three or four of their young kids with them--apparently the parents had visited him in prison shortly before their suicide.

 

Well, he claims to be a prophet, so who are you to say he isn't following God's will? 

 

What on earth does repentance have to do with the law? "I murdered 20 people last summer, but I've repented since then, so the law has no bearing on me any more."

 

Uh....okay.... The sentence for your 20 heinous murders is...we don't want to be cruel, so...a wrist slap (keep it light though...no hurting) and 3 hours of community service.

 

Sounds like a millennial philosophy to me.

[Just_A_Guy]

I actually do think, theologically, that CatholicLady's post about giving time for repentance is valid.  While LDS teaching, of course, holds that it's impossible to make restitution for a taken life (and thus, the repentance available might be somewhat limited), isn't it also a tenet of our own theology that repentance is far easier to perform during mortality?

[Guest]

Explain what--the pigs flying outside my window?

 

Uhmm... I think you'll have to explain that one.  As far as I know, pigs don't fly except in Superbowl commercials. 

[CatholicLady]

Well, he claims to be a prophet, so who are you to say he isn't following God's will? 

 

What on earth does repentance have to do with the law? "I murdered 20 people last summer, but I've repented since then, so the law has no bearing on me any more."

 

Uh....okay.... The sentence for your 20 heinous murders is...we don't want to be cruel, so...a wrist slap (keep it light though...no hurting) and 3 hours of community service.

 

Sounds like a millennial philosophy to me.

 

I'm not saying the law in general doesn't apply to them anymore. I'm just referring to the DP in particular.

 

Though I'm against the DP regardless of whether or not the inmate repents. I only mentioned it because we were talking about Jeffery and Ted.

[The Folk Prophet]

Though I'm against the DP regardless of whether or not the inmate repents. 

 

Then why did you bring up their repentance as examples of "why the DP sucks"?

[The Folk Prophet]

I actually do think, theologically, that CatholicLady's post about giving time for repentance is valid.  While LDS teaching, of course, holds that it's impossible to make restitution for a taken life (and thus, the repentance available might be somewhat limited), isn't it also a tenet of our own theology that repentance is far easier to perform during mortality?

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the giving them time to repent theory when it comes to excessively heinous crimes. I mean, we're talking the most reprobate of deeds here, not just someone who didn't pay their taxes or stole a loaf of bread. It's not like anyone who opts to start killing other people for the fun of it doesn't know what they're getting into liability wise.

 

Moreover, I'm quite skeptical of the so-called "repentance" of Dahmer. Put that guy on the street again, and do you really think he wouldn't return to his ways? *shrug* Well. maybe. Either way, clearly, based on how long it takes to run someone through the DP system, they have all the time they need to "repent". And that, imo, has no bearing whatsoever on the legal culpability they have.

 

I'm not saying yay or nay to the DP, btw (though it should be obvious where I lean), but I don't think repentance is a valid reason to reject it.

 

There are, simply, certain deeds that put a person well beyond any legal obligation to allow for or even consider reformation. (Hitler comes to mind.)

 

I also don't buy the "they didn't know any better because they didn't have the gospel" angle. Baloney! They knew better. Everyone knows better than becoming a serial killer or a mass murderer.

Edited February 3, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

Of course this philosophy of Traveler's entirely disregards the myriad of scriptural descriptions of weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

 

Myriad of scriptures?  Can you show me even one that contains the three terms together "weeping, wailing, and gnashing"?

[The Folk Prophet]

Myriad of scriptures?  Can you show me even one that contains the three terms together "weeping, wailing, and gnashing"?

 

Seriously?

 

https://www.lds.org/search?q=weeping+and+wailing+and+gnashing+of+teeth〈=eng&domains=scriptures

[CatholicLady]

Then why did you bring up their repentance as examples of "why the DP sucks"?

 

 

I'm against the DP because I believe all human life is sacred and worth living. That's the bottom line.

 

I think we should only take away a life as an absolute last resort. Like in self defense, or in the case of a just war.

When someone is already locked up and they no longer pose a threat to society, I see no justifiable reason to kill them. We are not killing them in order to protect ourselves. We have the technology and the means to keep society safe from these people without having to resort to execution. So I don't see the point. Life is sacred. You don't destroy it unless you absolutely have to.

^That above is the reason why I don't support the DP.

Now, there are other things about the DP that I think further makes it horrible, but are not THE reason why I am against it.

 

- One thing is the fact that by executing someone, you are robbing them of their chance to repent and save their soul from Hell. As long as they are still alive, there is always the hope that they will turn to Christ.

 

- Another thing is in regards to the people who already have repented. We can learn from them. They can give us insight into the minds of people who have an urge to kill. They can do good for the world. Ted vehemently warned us about the dangers of pornography in his interviews. Jeffrey became an active Christian and served as a model for other inmates to turn to Christ. 

- Lastly, of course, is the issue of wrongly convicted innocent people getting executed. Even one innocent person having been convicted is one too many.

But even if someone never were to repent, had absolutely nothing positive to contribute to the world, and was 100% guilty, I would still be against the DP for the sole reason that human life is sacred and we don't destroy it unless we absolutely need to.

[Traveler]

I'm not saying the law in general doesn't apply to them anymore. I'm just referring to the DP in particular.

 

Though I'm against the DP regardless of whether or not the inmate repents. I only mentioned it because we were talking about Jeffery and Ted.

 

As an interesting note I use to ride a bus to work with a detective in the Seattle area.  I asked him about his opinion about what to do with individuals that habitually break the law - repeat offenders.  His theory was:

 

1. First offense - use a parole method to try to rehabilitate the offender.

 

2. Next step - if a parole method fails to change their behavior the incarcerate then in a controlled environment to attempt to rehabilitate them.

 

3. Final step - If they cannot be changed in a controlled environment of rehabilitation and they continue to repeat the offense - then execute them.

 

I was very shocked and asked if he was advocating executing someone for repeated offense of shoplifting a 25 cent item????  His answer was - do you want to end the offense or not?  Do you intend to use the force of law to stop criminal offenses?  If we feel that certain crimes are not worth stopping - then why bother with passing any legal effort to stop it?  If someone is so addicted to an offense that they will sacrifice their own life to continue - they are a far greater danger to society than their petty crime.  According to my friend the only way to end commission of a crime is to end the life of those that refuse to end criminal behavior.

 

I have often thought on this concept and would ask the question - Does not G-d condemn from the blessings of heaven those that refuse to end criminal behaviors?  If you believe in hell which by definition is "death" - how can you say you do not support the death penalty?  

[Backroads]

In theory, I have no problem with the death penalty.

In action, I do. Like JaG said, It's a mess with how we drag it out forever. That defeats any real justice.

I've heard some suggest the perpetrators live in restitution towards victims and their families and I rather like that idea. It's kind of slavery, but I think it gives satisfaction more quickly than death 20 years later

[Traveler]

Seriously?

 

https://www.lds.org/search?q=weeping+and+wailing+and+gnashing+of+teeth〈=eng&domains=scriptures

 

thanks for the update - do you believe in a literal interpretation of the specified scriptures or are you open to variant "readings".

[The Folk Prophet]

thanks for the update - do you believe in a literal interpretation of the specified scriptures or are you open to variant "readings".

 

Why don't you explain your variant reading and then I'll let you know if I believe it?

[Traveler]

Why don't you explain your variant reading and then I'll let you know if I believe it?

 

I think it has more to do with their hatred and desire for revenge - being unable to continue to fulfill their pleasure to torment and harm others.  I do not think it is because of being separated or disconnected from G-d and his saints (except for the revenge thing).  I believe they really do love the "darkness" more than light and are not at all unhappy with that.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think it has more to do with their hatred and desire for revenge - being unable to continue to fulfill their pleasure to torment and harm others.  I do not think it is because of being separated or disconnected from G-d and his saints (except for the revenge thing).  I believe they really do love the "darkness" more than light and are not at all unhappy with that.

 

I believe that is part of it. I think it entirely inadequate to explain the warnings given throughout the scriptures. Why warn if everyone is just going to be pleased with their lot? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

When the scriptures teach us that wickedness NEVER was happiness...I take it as literal. And the opposite of happiness is not...happiness.

 

There is opposition in all things. The opposition to a fullness of joy is a fullness of sorrow. And everyone who fails to attain a fullness of joy must therefore have some measure of sorrow in their state.

 

Yes, they choose their own fate by their character. They are what they are, and they are rewarded accordingly. But that doesn't mean they're happy about it, pleased by it, glad it turned out that way, or even okay with it to any degree. But they will confess that it is just.

[Traveler]

In theory, I have no problem with the death penalty.

In action, I do. Like JaG said, It's a mess with how we drag it out forever. That defeats any real justice.

I've heard some suggest the perpetrators live in restitution towards victims and their families and I rather like that idea. It's kind of slavery, but I think it gives satisfaction more quickly than death 20 years later

 

I have a little problem with the idea of restitution for victims and their families.  Mostly because I believe that any realization for the desire for revenge and restitution will cause more harm in the heart and eternal soul of victims and their families than the initial crime.  Their only hope for a good outcome is in forgiveness and a understanding that Christ has made full restitution, therefore to expect or hope for any more is not helpful.

[Traveler]

I believe that is part of it. I think it entirely inadequate to explain the warnings given throughout the scriptures. Why warn if everyone is just going to be pleased with their lot? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

When the scriptures teach us that wickedness NEVER was happiness...I take it as literal. And the opposite of happiness is not...happiness.

 

There is opposition in all things. The opposition to a fullness of joy is a fullness of sorrow. And everyone who fails to attain a fullness of joy must therefore have some measure of sorrow in their state.

 

Yes, they choose their own fate by their character. They are what they are, and they are rewarded accordingly. But that doesn't mean they're happy about it, pleased by it, glad it turned out that way, or even okay with it to any degree. But they will confess that it is just.

 

I have yet to meet anyone truly sorry for their state that was not willing to repent and make some effort to change it.

[The Folk Prophet]

I have a little problem with the idea of restitution for victims and their families.  Mostly because I believe that any realization for the desire for revenge and restitution will cause more harm in the heart and eternal soul of victims and their families than the initial crime.  Their only hope for a good outcome is in forgiveness and a understanding that Christ has made full restitution, therefore to expect or hope for any more is not helpful.

 

That, and that any so-called restitution efforts by someone who tortured, raped, and murdered your child are going to fall a bit flat. That last thing I would want is that person mowing my lawn or something.

[The Folk Prophet]

I have yet to meet anyone truly sorry for their state that was not willing to repent and make some effort to change it.

 

That may be so, but your personal experience does not define how the eternities work.

 

Of course, the theory only matters insomuch as it might drive someone to choose or behave differently than they might have otherwise. I'm not sure the theory you have is detrimental to anyone -- though I worry slightly that it is. There is, in my opinion, a distinct danger in the, I am what I am and that's just the way it is, but that's okay because I'll be happy being who I am so I don't need to worry about it, sort of interpretation that could easily stem from it.

[Guest]

There is, in my opinion, a distinct danger in the, I am what I am and that's just the way it is, but that's okay because I'll be happy being who I am so I don't need to worry about it, sort of interpretation that could easily stem from it.

 

I understood Traveler's post as exactly this...

 

Wailing, gnashing teeth... remember, we chose to come to earth to be with God eternally.  Otherwise, we would have followed Lucifer.  So, ALL OF US that has ever walked the earth - including the rapists and murderers and terrorists... they all want to be with God.  So, when they end up separated from God, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  No?

[The Folk Prophet]

I understood Traveler's post as exactly this...

 

Wailing, gnashing teeth... remember, we chose to come to earth to be with God eternally.  Otherwise, we would have followed Lucifer.  So, ALL OF US that has ever walked the earth - including the rapists and murderers and terrorists... they all want to be with God.  So, when they end up separated from God, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  No?

 

Then you are understanding his post differently than me, because what I read was...

 

Wailing, gnashing teeth... They'll be pleased as punch to be on their way to outer darkness because it's what they desire, and the only reason they'll be gnashing their teeth is because they can't take everybody with them.