death penalty

[Guest]

Then you are understanding his post differently than me, because what I read was...

 

Wailing, gnashing teeth... They'll be pleased as punch to be on their way to outer darkness because it's what they desire, and the only reason they'll be gnashing their teeth is because they can't take everybody with them.

 

 

Sorry.  I did not phrase my post properly.

 

What I meant was:

 

<quoted TFP here>

I understood Traveler's post as exactly this...

(meaning... as exactly what TFP said in the quote)

 

Then I continued to write a paragraph of what I think.  Then I ended it with the question, No?  As in... isn't that right? which is a wanna-be-artistic-way of begging your opinion on what I said.

[Traveler]

When we come to a clear memory of our pre-existence and all our deeds in this life and the spirit world - I believe we will have a very clear idea and understanding (knowledge) of good and evil.  And with that very clear knowledge I believe we will realize our agency and fulfill the desire of our heart.  The operative notion is agency with full knowledge of our choices.

 

But I believe and have observed that we learn to love by association.  We will love that with which we invest with association.  I do not believe that anyone will be tricked into something or beguiled into anything of eternal consequence.  

[The Folk Prophet]

I do not believe that anyone will be tricked into something or beguiled into anything of eternal consequence.  

 

It's rather odd, in my opinion, to view God's justice as a trick or beguilement. What you're essentially saying here is that if God gives to anyone their just desserts that he's being dishonest with them.

 

 

A claim that God will only give us that which we want is incongruent with scripture.

 

You are, essentially, arguing that mercy can rob justice. But it cannot. God has established the rules by which we will gain salvation and He cannot deny His word. He has established that our salvation is contingent upon our repentance, faith, and obedience in this life.

 

Frankly, your theory smacks to me of 2 Nephi 28:7

 

And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Edited February 5, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

Sorry.  I did not phrase my post properly.

 

What I meant was:

 

<quoted TFP here>

I understood Traveler's post as exactly this...

(meaning... as exactly what TFP said in the quote)

 

Then I continued to write a paragraph of what I think.  Then I ended it with the question, No?  As in... isn't that right? which is a wanna-be-artistic-way of begging your opinion on what I said.

 

Heheh. Next time use a pointer...as in: I understood it to be this ^^^

 

:)

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[JimmiGerman]

Heheh. Next time use a pointer...as in: I understood it to be this ^^^

 

 

[Guest]

Heheh. Next time use a pointer...as in: I understood it to be this ^^^

 

:)

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

Ooooh!  Yeah... ^^... never thought of that.

 

 

 

Mommy!  Jimmi is laughing at me!

 

 

:)

[Traveler]

It's rather odd, in my opinion, to view God's justice as a trick or beguilement. What you're essentially saying here is that if God gives to anyone their just desserts that he's being dishonest with them.

 

 

A claim that God will only give us that which we want is incongruent with scripture.

 

You are, essentially, arguing that mercy can rob justice. But it cannot. God has established the rules by which we will gain salvation and He cannot deny His word. He has established that our salvation is contingent upon our repentance, faith, and obedience in this life.

 

Frankly, your theory smacks to me of 2 Nephi 28:7

 

And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

 

I am glad you brought up that scripture.  Obviously that scripture is talking about individuals that are deceived and beguiled.  They are wrong and believing a lie - but it is referencing a lie and excuse that is utilized while in our mortal probation.  What I believe is that when we stand before G-d and make an account or our desires and deeds that there will be no such misunderstanding, beguilement or excuses.  I believe that those that have not repented will have made that choice without any illusions or misunderstandings.  When we stand before G-d there will be no pretense and it will be obvious if we actually want to live with G-d and his saints as a repentant saint ourselves if that is our actual desire - Through the atonement of Christ I believe the possibility is open for all to repent that so desire.  The only ones that will remain guilty are those that are determined to remain so. 

 

I have carefully thought this through and I cannot come up with any honest possibility where G-d would force someone into an eternal condition that they have not honestly desired and completely invested themselves in.  As I have utilized every resource available to me (including fasting and prayer) - I have concluded that no one will be forced into anything but our lot will be 100% the consequence of our unbeguiled  or something missing choice in agency and 0% forced from any other input.  Every scripture I read and every revelation from G-d I have understood completely conforms to this understanding of agency.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

I am glad you brought up that scripture.  Obviously that scripture is talking about individuals that are deceived and beguiled.  They are wrong and believing a lie - but it is referencing a lie and excuse that is utilized while in our mortal probation.  What I believe is that when we stand before G-d and make an account or our desires and deeds that there will be no such misunderstanding, beguilement or excuses.  I believe that those that have not repented will have made that choice without any illusions or misunderstandings.  When we stand before G-d there will be no pretense and it will be obvious if we actually want to live with G-d and his saints as a repentant saint ourselves if that is our actual desire - Through the atonement of Christ I believe the possibility is open for all to repent that so desire.  The only ones that will remain guilty are those that are determined to remain so. 

 

I have carefully thought this through and I cannot come up with any honest possibility where G-d would force someone into an eternal condition that they have not honestly desired and completely invested themselves in.  As I have utilized every resource available to me (including fasting and prayer) - I have concluded that no one will be forced into anything but our lot will be 100% the consequence of our unbeguiled  or something missing choice in agency and 0% forced from any other input.  Every scripture I read and every revelation from G-d I have understood completely conforms to this understanding of agency.

 

Lest you think I am 100% at odds with you on this, I should clarify that I am not. I do think there is some merit in what you are saying. But I think it is, in some ways, a bit beyond the mark, so to speak.

 

There are plenty of scriptures that warn us against believing lies. And everyone who follows Satan is being beguiled, deceived and lied to. By your reasoning then, no one would stand accountable and our salvation is sure, because we are all, who sin, deceived.

 

It just doesn't fit, your prayers and fasting argument notwithstanding, the teachings in the scriptures. 

 

Matt 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

Lest you think I do not know my scriptures and don't know where you're pulling your ideas from, here's Alma 41:5:

 

The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

 

But where I think you're astray, a bit, is in applying this "desire" invalidly in reverse.

 

I'll give an example of what I mean. A man who is poor because he has never taken the appropriate steps to earn, never did well in school, never bothered to try for good jobs, never bothered to save, etc., etc., etc. Now some would say that this man never desired wealth, because if he truly desired it he would do what was required for wealth. On the other hand, it is perfectly valid to say that a lazy man sitting around watching TV all day and never showing any ambitions still desires wealth (presumably to support his sitting around watching TV all day.)

 

I think the first of these two ideas is mistaken. A man who desires one thing more than another (laziness over wealth) does not logically equate to no desire for the other. It simply means he desired the first more.

 

It's like the son who didn't do his homework and then is not allowed to go to a party or something, and he says, "But I really wanted to go," and the parent replies, "Obviously you didn't really want to go or you would have done your homework." Every teenager knows that this is bull. They still want to go to the party. Duh. Of course they still want to go. Their stronger desire to not do their homework does not mean they no longer wish to have their cake and eat it too, so to speak.

 

I think that is a much better explanation of the eternities. Those who fail to achieve Celestial glory will desire it...they will desire the joy, the power, the glory. But they will, ultimately, just as the lazy man in front of the TV, have desired something else more. That doesn't mean they don't want the joy, power, and glory.

 

Even Satan is a prime example of this. His entire downfall was based on desiring God's glory. And I think it fairly safe to presume that he still desires this. But not enough to have made the hard and humble choice to do what it took to qualify for it. He, ultimately, chose what his true desires were, based on his choices and actions.

 

That is where I believe your ideas fail. You are applying desire to sin to mean a lack of desire for the rewards of righteousness. But that is invalid. It simply means they desire to sin MORE than they desire the rewards of righteousness, not that they despise the rewards of righteousness.

 

I hope you can see that our thinking is not entirely at odds. Obviously a wicked man does not desire to do righteousness. And that is valid. If a man stands before God on judgment day and truly and honestly desires to do nothing more than righteousness, then yes, I cannot see God telling him to go jump. Of course this desire will have manifested in the man's life choices, but in theory we can agree there. If, on the other hand, the man desires to do righteousness, but just not when the going gets tough, or when it actually means sacrificing or humbling himself, etc., then clearly the man desires evil more, and his desire to righteousness and the attending blessings is insufficient and he will be cast off.

[Traveler]

Lest you think I am 100% at odds with you on this, I should clarify that I am not. I do think there is some merit in what you are saying. But I think it is, in some ways, a bit beyond the mark, so to speak.

 

I regret that I have not communicated better - especially how much I value your input.  There are two things I most enjoy from your posts.  First is a sanity check.  Posters like you keep me grounded and point out my errors.  As a scientist and engineer a pier review of ideas is a critical step in establishing concepts of actual value that can be intelligently utilized.

 

The second is a review of how you understand what I thought I said.  There are some points that I have not communicated very well.  Your responses are spot on but not quite what I was trying to say. So I will try again - as long as you are willing to listen.  Thanks.  I would add that I am also trying to assess your posts and how you respond to your views with these two possibilities breaking down what you are trying to say.

 

 

There are plenty of scriptures that warn us against believing lies. And everyone who follows Satan is being beguiled, deceived and lied to. By your reasoning then, no one would stand accountable and our salvation is sure, because we are all, who sin, deceived.

 

It just doesn't fit, your prayers and fasting argument notwithstanding, the teachings in the scriptures. 

 

 

Here are some scriptures that may shed some light on this subject:

Abraham 4:4 Genesis 1:4 John 3:19 Ephesians 5:8  (this scripture is rather interesting - especially verses 8-14) Matthew 6:23

In the understanding that there is a connection between light and truth - I would ask -- how are those that follow Satan beguiled?  It would be obvious to me that once the understood the truth - they would not follow Satan.  But I believe John clarifies the problem in 3:19.  The problem is not that they are beguiled by darkness but that they love, desire and prefer darkness - it was a choice having experienced both light and darkness - which is in part the meaning of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

 

Matt 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

Lest you think I do not know my scriptures and don't know where you're pulling your ideas from, here's Alma 41:5:

 

The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

 

But where I think you're astray, a bit, is in applying this "desire" invalidly in reverse.

 

I'll give an example of what I mean. A man who is poor because he has never taken the appropriate steps to earn, never did well in school, never bothered to try for good jobs, never bothered to save, etc., etc., etc. Now some would say that this man never desired wealth, because if he truly desired it he would do what was required for wealth. On the other hand, it is perfectly valid to say that a lazy man sitting around watching TV all day and never showing any ambitions still desires wealth (presumably to support his sitting around watching TV all day.)

 

I think the first of these two ideas is mistaken. A man who desires one thing more than another (laziness over wealth) does not logically equate to no desire for the other. It simply means he desired the first more.

 

 

I agree and love your example because I thing it can clarify where we may disagree not because we believe differently but because we do not quite understand each other.  I believe that there are actually two problems with the poor.  The first problem are those that do not understand or know about the principles of wealth.  If the principles are not understood someone may think they desire wealth - but because they are in ignorance of the principles of wealth there is no way to know if they really desire wealth or not.  The second problem is in those that have been taught the principles of wealth but despise the principles and those that abide by such principles.  This is the area of great interest for this discussion.  They have knowledge and think they desire wealth but are unwilling to abide by the principles.  Not because they do not understand or know of the principles - but with full knowledge refuse the principles despite knowing it will mean that they will never be wealthy.  We may say they are deceived - but that really is not the problem.  The lie is that they will not abide by the principles yet think to desire wealth.

 

So also that sinner the refuses to repent - the lie is in anybody thinks that such unrepentant sinners desire eternal life because the truth is that they desire darkness more than light.

 

 

 

It's like the son who didn't do his homework and then is not allowed to go to a party or something, and he says, "But I really wanted to go," and the parent replies, "Obviously you didn't really want to go or you would have done your homework." Every teenager knows that this is bull. They still want to go to the party. Duh. Of course they still want to go. Their stronger desire to not do their homework does not mean they no longer wish to have their cake and eat it too, so to speak.

 

I think that is a much better explanation of the eternities. Those who fail to achieve Celestial glory will desire it...they will desire the joy, the power, the glory. But they will, ultimately, just as the lazy man in front of the TV, have desired something else more. That doesn't mean they don't want the joy, power, and glory.

 

Even Satan is a prime example of this. His entire downfall was based on desiring God's glory. And I think it fairly safe to presume that he still desires this. But not enough to have made the hard and humble choice to do what it took to qualify for it. He, ultimately, chose what his true desires were, based on his choices and actions.

 

If I understand what I thinking this is where I differ with many religious thinkers.  Doing homework and going to parties are in reality two different things.  Some parents may use party attendance as what I see as a "false" motivation to try to get their children to stud and do homework.  Thus the only connection is forced by the parent when in reality the two have nothing to do with each other.  The value in studying and doing homework has greater rewards than parties and the intelligent individual will wonder why the truth was not taught by their parents when they come to understand the real value of studying and doing homework. 

 

Many people believe that the parable of the prodigal son is about the evils and sins that the son committed and therefore he was prodigal. But prodigal does not really mean evil.  Prodigal actually means extravagant and wasteful.  We can do what we desire with our inheritance.  The sin was being wasteful not really the partying.  Partying just became the vehicle of of his waste.  And this I believe is an important point - in the parable the heart and desire of the son was changed - he made a choice based in knowledge -- something the older son did not understand and therefore opposed. 

 

 

 

That is where I believe your ideas fail. You are applying desire to sin to mean a lack of desire for the rewards of righteousness. But that is invalid. It simply means they desire to sin MORE than they desire the rewards of righteousness, not that they despise the rewards of righteousness.

 

I hope you can see that our thinking is not entirely at odds. Obviously a wicked man does not desire to do righteousness. And that is valid. If a man stands before God on judgment day and truly and honestly desires to do nothing more than righteousness, then yes, I cannot see God telling him to go jump. Of course this desire will have manifested in the man's life choices, but in theory we can agree there. If, on the other hand, the man desires to do righteousness, but just not when the going gets tough, or when it actually means sacrificing or humbling himself, etc., then clearly the man desires evil more, and his desire to righteousness and the attending blessings is insufficient and he will be cast off.

 

In this I believe we agree - we just state it differently.  Indeed it is about what we desire most.  It is not that those that are cast out do not like light but that they desire darkness more.  But when we stand before G-d that point will be obvious and not a matter of being deceived or beguiled.   Likewise it may not be that those that choose light did not find any pleasure in darkness but in the end preferred the light.  Sometime I misquote Alma a little bit with, "Wickedness never was happiness -- but it was sure fun while it lasted."

[The Folk Prophet]

Likewise it may not be that those that choose light did not find any pleasure in darkness but in the end preferred the light. 

 

Here here. However, it's not so simple as just tasting the dark and the light and then saying, "Hmm...I think the light tastes better." If it were, there would be lot less confusion.

 

The sad truth is that if I was just going on what tastes better (based on my ever so limited experience) the carnal and the sinful tastes better to my natural, carnal self. That sort of thing seems to be across the board for most people. Not going to church tasted better than going to church. Not doing my home teaching tastes better than doing it. Not serving tastes better. Etc., etc...

 

I have had relatively few experiences in my life that have been concrete !!!! Oh - righteousness IS happiness !!!! moments. When they come, they're stunning, of course. But for the most part, we have to act on something other than a concrete, "Ah yes, the light tastes better " -- experience.

 

What am I talking about? FAITH. We have to act on Faith. We have to trust that the labor, the long-suffering, the service, the challenges, the poopy-diapers, the discipline, etc., is worth it. If we simply compare the taste -- literally -- the natural man is, well, natural to us. Without faith, we would choose the darkness.

 

The challenge of life is not to see if we'll choose the good over the evil with the immediate reward laid right before us. If that were the case (as it was in the pre-existence) then we would choose the good. We've already proven that in our first estates. Rather, the test of life is to see if we will choose the good on faith alone.

 

This is where I struggle with parts of your ideas. It strikes me that you're claiming that even when the veil is removed, and we no longer have to make the choice on faith alone, that we'll all be on equal footing and simply be able to choose at that point which tastes better. But that is in opposition to the whole plan of Salvation. If that were the test, the the only reason we'd have for mortality would be to get a body - and the veil would not be required at all.

 

So, as I said, we're not in complete opposition to one another on the general idea (how could we be...the thoughts are based on the same gospel) but I feel like you're missing part of the equation in your ultimate conclusion.

[NightSG]

I've heard some suggest the perpetrators live in restitution towards victims and their families and I rather like that idea. It's kind of slavery, but I think it gives satisfaction more quickly than death 20 years later

 

Well, the 13th Amendment specifically allows for involuntary servitude "as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted," so I don't see the problem there.

 

It still leaves the question of how you get them to work if they're locked up for life either way, but it should be possible to come up with an option short of continually physically forcing them.  For example, 10 years' hard labor could be the sentence, and every day they're not working to their full potential doesn't count toward that sentence, plus adding certain privileges; you can work 6 days a week, have a soft bed in a private room and be out in ten years, or 3 days a week, have a decent bunk in a bunkhouse and be out in twenty, or not at all and die in a small cell on a cot.

Edited February 5, 2015 by NightSG

[Guest]

Well, the 13th Amendment specifically allows for involuntary servitude "as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted," so I don't see the problem there.

 

It still leaves the question of how you get them to work if they're locked up for life either way, but it should be possible to come up with an option short of continually physically forcing them.  For example, 10 years' hard labor could be the sentence, and every day they're not working to their full potential doesn't count toward that sentence, plus adding certain privileges; you can work 6 days a week, have a soft bed in a private room and be out in ten years, or 3 days a week, have a decent bunk in a bunkhouse and be out in twenty, or not at all and die in a small cell on a cot.

 

It would be really great if we can send them to "the Americas"... or to Telestial Colony... or an alternate universe (okay, I've been watching Jet Li's The One)...

[Crypto]

I'm going to poke this thread with a figurative stick , because I'm not sure.

 

I don't quite like the idea of the death penalty...except in the case of extreme crimes...even then i'm not sure if i'm for it or against it.



 

Edited February 6, 2015 by Crypto

[Traveler]

Here here. However, it's not so simple as just tasting the dark and the light and then saying, "Hmm...I think the light tastes better." If it were, there would be lot less confusion.

 

The sad truth is that if I was just going on what tastes better (based on my ever so limited experience) the carnal and the sinful tastes better to my natural, carnal self. That sort of thing seems to be across the board for most people. Not going to church tasted better than going to church. Not doing my home teaching tastes better than doing it. Not serving tastes better. Etc., etc...

 

I have had relatively few experiences in my life that have been concrete !!!! Oh - righteousness IS happiness !!!! moments. When they come, they're stunning, of course. But for the most part, we have to act on something other than a concrete, "Ah yes, the light tastes better " -- experience.

 

What am I talking about? FAITH. We have to act on Faith. We have to trust that the labor, the long-suffering, the service, the challenges, the poopy-diapers, the discipline, etc., is worth it. If we simply compare the taste -- literally -- the natural man is, well, natural to us. Without faith, we would choose the darkness.

 

The challenge of life is not to see if we'll choose the good over the evil with the immediate reward laid right before us. If that were the case (as it was in the pre-existence) then we would choose the good. We've already proven that in our first estates. Rather, the test of life is to see if we will choose the good on faith alone.

 

This is where I struggle with parts of your ideas. It strikes me that you're claiming that even when the veil is removed, and we no longer have to make the choice on faith alone, that we'll all be on equal footing and simply be able to choose at that point which tastes better. But that is in opposition to the whole plan of Salvation. If that were the test, the the only reason we'd have for mortality would be to get a body - and the veil would not be required at all.

 

So, as I said, we're not in complete opposition to one another on the general idea (how could we be...the thoughts are based on the same gospel) but I feel like you're missing part of the equation in your ultimate conclusion.

 

Okay – thanks to you I have had somewhat of an epiphany thanks to your persistence.  My assumption has been that if someone is granted exactly what they actually want – that they would be pleased with the results of such a grant.  In fact I have difficulty with the logic that would have to take place in someone’s thought process that would prevent them from being completely pleased.  My problem is the assumption that others see and rationally realize logic; in particular those that obtain “outer darkness”.

 

I have always believed that there is a twofold problem in choosing evil rather than good. The first is not having a clear understanding of the consequences of evil compared to good.  The second is that there is such a proclivity towards evil that despite the consequences of evil that evil is preferred and therefore gladly embraced.  Because we live mostly by faith in this life, not having a clear understanding of consequences, I have believed that once the consequences become apparent that most, if not all would regret evil and gladly repent to be free of the consequences. 

 

I assume that in order to be deceived that someone must be influenced by an external intelligence that is lying to them.  I could not understand how any intelligent individual with a clear knowledge could be deceived by a lie?  I had not considered being deceived as a knowledgeable choice and preference to the truth.  Indeed this idea makes no rational sense.  But that is the deception of evil – it does not make rational sense and is illogical if considered from an eternal perspective (knowing the consequence).  Since I had thought that deception required an external influence – I had thought it improper that G-d would allow deception to take place for anything of eternal consequence.  The only exception that would override deception in eternity is if it is the result of the free expression of agency.

[estradling75]

There is also the possibility that I might say I want the Celestial Kingdom, even desire it...  But when it comes right down to it I choose to live only a Telestial life...  Then when judgment day rolls around I might be surprised and upset that I did not get my desire...  But when all the facts are presented it would be very hard for me to say that Celestial is really what I chose.  If I am unwilling to bear the weight of Celestial Glory then I should not expect to receive it, yet I think there will be some that do exactly that.

[Vort]

I have reason to believe that those who do not embrace repentance and strive to live a celestial life will very literally be terrified of God and other celestial beings and, as the scriptures teach, "would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence."

 

I don't know whether there will be everlasting regret at not "making it". I doubt it; something about the idea screams that we have no idea what we're talking about. But I am quite sure that devils and those who make themselves devils will flee in agony from God and those who inherit God's glory.

[Traveler]

I believe that many will someday stand before G-d.  That G-d will lovingly and kindly show them the Celestial Kingdom and invite them to spend eternity with him.  That upon discovering exactly what the Celestial Kingdom really is -- that they will say,  Father, I have lived by faith, repented of all my sins and was baptized according to  restored covenant but as I now view the Celestial Kingdom I must admit that I expected something quite different than this.

 

The G-d will show them the other kingdoms of glory - to which they would say, "this one over here is obviously a much better fit in eternity for me."  G-d will ask, "Are you sure".  To which they will answer, "Yes, Father I am". Then with grateful heart they will receive with joy that kingdom that is pure heaven to them.  Perhaps a place that is not so centered on service and sacrifice.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Traveler

[Guest]

I believe that many will someday stand before G-d.  That G-d will lovingly and kindly show them the Celestial Kingdom and invite them to spend eternity with him.  That upon discovering exactly what the Celestial Kingdom really is -- that they will say,  Father, I have lived by faith, repented of all my sins and was baptized according to  restored covenant but as I now view the Celestial Kingdom I must admit that I expected something quite different than this.

 

The G-d will show them the other kingdoms of glory - to which they would say, "this one over here is obviously a much better fit in eternity for me."  G-d will ask, "Are you sure".  To which they will answer, "Yes, Father I am". Then with grateful heart they will receive with joy that kingdom that is pure heaven to them.  Perhaps a place that is not so centered on service and sacrifice.

 

There's a flaw to this viewpoint, I think... someone who desires a lower kingdom will not even have the opportunity to see the Celestial Kingdom... no unclean thing and all that - all judged by the desires of our free will.

 

It's a weird thinking, in my opinion... the position that somehow, someone who decided to follow Christ in the Plan of Salvation - to gain a body and go through with mortal probation - would qualify to be with God but not want to be with God.  I don't get it.

[The Folk Prophet]

I believe that many will someday stand before G-d.  That G-d will lovingly and kindly show them the Celestial Kingdom and invite them to spend eternity with him.  That upon discovering exactly what the Celestial Kingdom really is -- that they will say,  Father, I have lived by faith, repented of all my sins and was baptized according to  restored covenant but as I now view the Celestial Kingdom I must admit that I expected something quite different than this.

 

The G-d will show them the other kingdoms of glory - to which they would say, "this one over here is obviously a much better fit in eternity for me."  G-d will ask, "Are you sure".  To which they will answer, "Yes, Father I am". Then with grateful heart they will receive with joy that kingdom that is pure heaven to them.  Perhaps a place that is not so centered on service and sacrifice.

 

I cannot imagine why anyone would presume such a thing. First, we all knew, full well, what God was all about prior to this life. We knew what God did and we desired it already.

 

By implication, you're saying that if someone actually experiences the Celestial Kingdom they might change their mind. Which also means that theoretically God could change His mind. But we know that is impossible.

[The Folk Prophet]

I don't know whether there will be everlasting regret at not "making it". I doubt it; something about the idea screams that we have no idea what we're talking about. 

 

That depends on what you mean by regret I suppose. I expect that anyone who doesn't receive exaltation will always have an understanding of that, and always know that had they chosen differently they could have had it. And we know they will never have a fulness of joy. But if we're thinking of regret as simply never coming to terms with something, then I agree. I think it plain that whatever state anyone is in, eventually, they'll have to come to terms with it (well...maybe not outer darkness...but that isn't a kingdom of glory...so....)

 

That being said, I'm fairly sure that for the most part, we have no idea what we're talking about.

[Traveler]

There's a flaw to this viewpoint, I think... someone who desires a lower kingdom will not even have the opportunity to see the Celestial Kingdom... no unclean thing and all that - all judged by the desires of our free will.

 

It's a weird thinking, in my opinion... the position that somehow, someone who decided to follow Christ in the Plan of Salvation - to gain a body and go through with mortal probation - would qualify to be with God but not want to be with God.  I don't get it.

 

 

I cannot imagine why anyone would presume such a thing. First, we all knew, full well, what God was all about prior to this life. We knew what God did and we desired it already.

 

By implication, you're saying that if someone actually experiences the Celestial Kingdom they might change their mind. Which also means that theoretically God could change His mind. But we know that is impossible.

 

It seems to me that many desire the Celestial Kingdom for what they think is the reward of power and glory for the sacrifices and service that they have grudgingly offered in mortality - thinking if they can just endure it for this life that they will be handsomely rewarded and blessed beyond their wildest dreams in eternity - as though the Celestial Kingdom would be the place where other would eternally serve their every need.

 

Not too long ago I volunteered to help clean the temple.  In carpooling with others I was advised that we should be early in order to get the first and best choices of the assignments.  I have often pondered and I believe that Jesus would actually request the most undesirable service possible or available but I have observed with few exceptions that most go out of their way to avoid such service and whenever possible choose the service of least sacrifice.

 

It seems to me that many think sacrifice and service is what we do to get to the Celestial Kingdom and not so much what we will be doing there for eternity. 

[Vort]

It seems to me that many think sacrifice and service is what we do to get to the Celestial Kingdom and not so much what we will be doing there for eternity. 

 

I could not agree more. And I also admit that an eternity of being, as the mortal Jesus taught, the servant of everyone else doesn't sound all that promising. But I believe God's word through Paul:

 

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

Perhaps my favorite scripture of all. I take it very literally. I believe the joys of exaltation are literally incomprehensible to us, except in a dim manner, "through a glass, darkly" (to quote Paul again).

[Blackmarch]

What is the LDS church's position on it?

Doesn't have one really. Probably the closest is that the laws of the land should be just, and dealt in that manner.

execution may be necessary at some times, and at others not so.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Blackmarch