Newbert_Zero Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 I've been thinking about this for a while and i realized that either i don't understand this right or satan is contradicting himself. Because satan was against the plan of salvation and he didn't want us to have agency right. It is also said somewhere in second nephi that there must be opposition in all things because if we didn't know bad we wouldn't know good. So if lucifer never became satan gods plan wouldn't have worked because we wouldn't be tempted and we wouldn't have had the experiences and earth that we go through now. So I'm wondering if satan is just dumb and didn't realize that he was helping Gods plan or if he did realize it and he is actually working with God to make his plan work, which sounds really weird. Another thing I was thinking about is this. We are supposed to become like God right? that implies that God was once like us and had to become a God too. If it is a cycle then why did we have a meeting in heaven about the plan of salvation if thats the way its always been? Perhaps our God became a God using a different way such as the plan of somthing and Satan thought that the plan of salvation wouldn't work and that is why he rebelled and tryed to prove that it wouldent work which brings me back to my first thought. Wow after reading what I wrote it sounds very confusing but just try to understand what I'm saying and ask me If you don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbert_Zero Posted July 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 (nm sombody deleted there comment) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 I've been thinking about this for a while and i realized that either i don't understand this right or satan is contradicting himself. Because satan was against the plan of salvation and he didn't want us to have agency right. It is also said somewhere in second nephi that there must be opposition in all things because if we didn't know bad we wouldn't know good. So if lucifer never became satan gods plan wouldn't have worked because we wouldn't be tempted and we wouldn't have had the experiences and earth that we go through now.So I'm wondering if satan is just dumb and didn't realize that he was helping Gods plan or if he did realize it and he is actually working with God to make his plan work, which sounds really weird. Another thing I was thinking about is this. We are supposed to become like God right? that implies that God was once like us and had to become a God too. If it is a cycle then why did we have a meeting in heaven about the plan of salvation if thats the way its always been? Perhaps our God became a God using a different way such as the plan of somthing and Satan thought that the plan of salvation wouldn't work and that is why he rebelled and tryed to prove that it wouldent work which brings me back to my first thought.Wow after reading what I wrote it sounds very confusing but just try to understand what I'm saying and ask me If you don't know what I'm talking about.Satan is for sure not dumb. He was there when we all heard the plan of salvation and chose sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbert_Zero Posted July 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 well it sure seems like he is if what he is doing is actually helping God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yediyd Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Satan isn't dumb, but G-d is smarter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 It would seem to me he is only helping in the way you are thinking if people make the right choices and learn from the oppositions and challenges they face in life. If they choose the wrong path then he's not helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbert_Zero Posted July 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Yes but opposition is an essential part of agency and satan was against agency so why would satan create opposition if it was needed for the plan to work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 It is necessary that Satan be allowed to tempt man or to provide the necessary opposition to God so that choice would be possible. Which was Christ's plan. Agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbert_Zero Posted July 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 I know thats exactly my point if you read my post. wich would mean that satan is helping the plan but he is trying to fight against it. hence the contradiction. I meant for this thread to be not though provoking not being told what i already know. sorry if that sounded harsh but it sounds like you didnt read my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 I did read your post. The only way I have of answering it is pretty much what I have already said. Heavenly Father allowed Satan to provide opposition. Whether we choose to allow the opposition to get the best of us or rise above it and become stronger are the choices we are allowed to make. I don't think Satan is thinking he is helping Heavenly Father's plan at all. His job is to try and keep us from reaching our full potential and returning to live with our Heavenly Father. Satan works harder on those who are keeping the commandments, attending church, paying tithing etc. JMHO of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josie Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Remember that Satan was very intelligent and greedy. He chose not to follow God's plan of Salvation, because he wanted all of the credit for himself, since he would be forcing everyone to conform to what he wanted. If God would have allowed us to come to earth under Lucifer's plan, we would have gained nothing, but a body, maybe? Satan did not want us to experience pain, happiness, joy, sadness, or anything else. He just wanted us to keep going just as we were in the pre=existence feeling none of the things that our mortal bodies would have allowed us to feel. We had to come here to earth not only to gain a body, but to experience right and wrong, good and bad, etc. Without those experiences we could not have the opportunity to be a God or Goddess and we could not learn and grow beyond where we were. I believe God said that if His plan was not carried through, He would cease to be God, because He could not lie and if His plan did not come about, He would have lied. He would have ceased to be God, and therefore neither He nor us would even have been allowed to exist. God created us so if He was not God he could not have created us and we would not exist. Satan wanted to be God without working for it, is my opinion. He wanted it all and no work. No Work No Glory! Just my opinion -- Josie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 I disagree. He wanted to be God (period). There is only one God and him wanting to replace him was what make Satan's offense so big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yediyd Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Spoken like a true non-Mormon!...luv ya Dr. T.......but I must take issue...He wanted to be G-d...without the work involved. He wanted to take the easy road.He was selfish, and egotistical...but wanting to be a god is not a sin...it is a desire that is in all of us...that is why we love our pets so. That is why I love fish tanks...I am in control of my own Eco system and I am "god" of it....I see no sin in wanting to be like my heavenly father and to someday have a world of my own to be god of.The sin is wanting to attain this without the sacrifice involved, thinking that I am too good for the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 That's the thing. No matter how much work is involved, we can never be God or a God. God has always existed and did not become a God. He just was. It is his essence not something he attained or a position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yediyd Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 ...and of course...that is where you and I disagree...agreeably Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpacktr Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 To answer your second question first: of course the Plan of Salvation (or the plan of happiness as the BOM refers to it, which I like better) is the only way: someone has to pay the price, and the rest of us piggyback on that one's shoulders. However, to me it is like sustaining someone in church. Those are popularity contests or elections--we are being asked to ratify a decision already made, and to sustain and support that person. In the council in heaven, I'm sure we were well versed in all of the plans, including the one that had worked many times before, and we being asked to WILLINGLY follow that plan again. As for Satan, I think his pride prevents him from seeing the beginning from the end. In the Garden of Eden, he thought to disrupt the plan by tempting Eve, thinking he was causing a catastrophe, when in actuality he furthered it by allowing Adam and Eve to have children. I think of HF as the ultimate lemonade maker: he can take any situation, no matter how bad, and make it fit in the plan. And I think that he knew, what we agency and all, that the opposition would be there, no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musashi Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Is that what the church teaches or just your opinion? President Hinckley’s interview with Time: Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follet discourse by the Prophet. A: Yeah Q: ... about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are? A: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 We had a lengthy thread (which was never finished) on this site that I started. Maybe it's worth reviving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbert_Zero Posted July 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Remember that Satan was very intelligent and greedy. He chose not to follow God's plan of Salvation, because he wanted all of the credit for himself, since he would be forcing everyone to conform to what he wanted. If God would have allowed us to come to earth under Lucifer's plan, we would have gained nothing, but a body, maybe? Satan did not want us to experience pain, happiness, joy, sadness, or anything else. He just wanted us to keep going just as we were in the pre=existence feeling none of the things that our mortal bodies would have allowed us to feel. We had to come here to earth not only to gain a body, but to experience right and wrong, good and bad, etc.Without those experiences we could not have the opportunity to be a God or Goddess and we could not learn and grow beyond where we were. I believe God said that if His plan was not carried through, He would cease to be God, because He could not lie and if His plan did not come about, He would have lied. He would have ceased to be God, and therefore neither He nor us would even have been allowed to exist. God created us so if He was not God he could not have created us and we would not exist. Satan wanted to be God without working for it, is my opinion. He wanted it all and no work.No Work No Glory!Just my opinion -- JosieHello?!!!! thats what ive been trying to say I swear nobody is listening exept for sixpack. I dont understand why satans plan was for us to not experience pain, happiness, joy, sadness, or anything else but then he tries to ruin gods plan be being the provider of pain sadness and temptation. Do you understand what i am trying to say? Its like if person A needed water for a plan to work and person B says you dont need water so he turns around and gives person A water to ruin his plan. It doesent make sence. Im asking why satan provided a part of the plan God needed. Do you still not understand what im trying to say? I think sixpack is the only one who understands what im trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiancum Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 His plan NEVER was to exempt us from pain, sadness, temptation. THose were the Lies he told to get people to fear the Fathers plan and follow him.In the preexistence, like was said, He wanted all the power for himself, and assuring that we didn't have choice would stop our growth, assuring that we would never achieve his level, so he would forever rule over us. He would forever be "better than" us...so he thought. There is no worse pain than being denied our innate desire for growth. Some have called that Hell. Have you notices that both plans are in effect here on earth? A plan of force, and a plan of freedom. a plan of happiness. free agency. (i know some diegn to call it that but our modern prophets do so i call it that too) Satan is smart but has no intelligence. (light and truth...he did not know the mind of God)He is a slave now just like his followers when they left heaven, he is a slave to the plan he thought he created. He can never come back, nor can his followers. I believe when he discovered this plan (words chosen carefully) And chose to adopt it, He has already lost much of his light and had lost a lot of his ability to choose. Light and the ability to choose are directly correlated. His last choice between right and wrong, when he gave up his last bit of intelligence, was when he was escorted out of heaven by force. isn't it interesting that darkness only reacts to force?.... While light finds joy in choice. about the contradiction comment. Have you ever noticed that evil does not look inward easily? He would have justified his contradictions. On a side note, evil also accuses good of what evil itself is doing. The art of misdirection. Us becoming gods is irrelevant to this conversation IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Actually I think alot of us answered the questions but in different ways. Though perhaps the misconception that Satan didn't want us to suffer pain, temptations etc was what threw off being able to see it. But good questions Newbert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpacktr Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 I'd have to go back to pride. I'm going to tell you another "gospel according to sixpack" (when I was YM Pres, the young men would immediately shout "FALSE DOCTRINE!" :) when I said that) so this again is not backed up by anything except my ponderings on it, but I believe that Satan is still 100% sure his plan was/is right. And as such, he is trying show that HF was foolish to let Jesus be the sacrifice and let everyone have agency. Therefore, he is doing everything he can to thwart a plan he believes is flawed, and is glad when one of us falls because it shows once again that HE WOULD NOT HAVE FAILED because we would not have had agency. That is why his pride gets in his way. I have often wondered why he tempted Adam and Eve. Just let them stay in the Garden forever, they can't have kids, they can't do evil because they don't know right from wrong. But he did it anyway to PROVE HF wrong...And why have Jesus crucified? LEAVE HIM ALONE and the plan of salvation fails miserably. But his hatred and pride would not let him leave Jesus alone. So we have the Lamb that takes away our sins, he triumphs over Satan completely, all because he wouldn't leave it be. His pride makes him very short-sighted, IMO. Again, my opinion, but it makes sense to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbert_Zero Posted July 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 thank you sixpack that makes sense to me two. I don't know if I wrote my origonal post clearly enough because some other people don't seem to understand what i'm trying to say. Basically I am wondering why satan is helping Gods plan work when we know that he wants Gods plan to fail. And it seems like sixpack is the only one who understands what I'm trying to say. Again its sortof a hard thing to explain and I'm not very good at explaining things so I hope you guys can understand what I'm trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 No you did just fine Newbert. It's hard sometimes to put in writing something so that people understand exactly what you are asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKairos Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Ever known someone who--having lost in a contest--becomes suicidal and adopts the attitude of, "I can see that I'm not gonna' win, so I might as well take down as many other people with me as I can." I've known people like that. When failure is certain, one instinct is to make others fail at all costs.I think Satan knew/knows his acts further God's plan...but...it was the only way Satan could have access to tempt all of us mortals.Think about it his options: Screw with the minds of two people in Eden? Or screw with the minds of billions upon billions of mortals. Sure Satan knows his end, and his acts propel him towards that fate, but his acts also allow him a last-ditch assault against all of us who would be happy. For someone like Satan, the only joy he can have is in the misery of others. Therefore, for Satan to grab as much "joy" as he can--fleeting though it may be--he has to be able to tempt us to sin and be miserable.There was only one option for Satan: tempt Adam and Eve, get the Fall going, get us into mortality, and then wreak havoc as long as he can.He's in kamikaze mode, and in the process of destroying himself he will destroy others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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