Nephi saw that there would be few church members in our day but that the church would cover the earth

[The Folk Prophet]

Hello, Finrock.

 

As we have no account of Enoch's labors, other than what we read in the Pearl of Great Price, the next best and closest example of Zion is what we read in 4th Nepthi concerning the few generations that lived during and after Christ visited the people. You have to read between the lines, though, throughout the Book of Mormon to catch glimpses of points in time when the people came close. Some examples are the people of King Benjamin, the Anti-Nephi-Lehis and the people at Bountiful after Christ's visit:

 

 

There is a LOT going on here. But to address one thing you mentioned. The reason there are no poor among them is because they were equal in all things. They had all things common. That's not the same as having all things in common. The BoM never mentions that (except in one or two headers added in later). They had all things common. King Benjamin gave the best discourse on the matter than I have read in any other scripture. A careful study of his words teach us that we should not covet anything at all. Not even our own property. Jesus Christ told Martin Harris not to covet his own property; to pay off his debt and get out of bondage and finance the Book of Mormon. 

 

If you covet your own property, you are not likely to impart of your substance to the beggar when you're out shopping. In this Babylonian society, you worked hard for your cash. You paid taxes on it and by golly, you're gonna spend it on stuff. Nevermind the guy with the cardboard sign who's asking for help. It's this inequality and the mentality that King Benjamin addresses very specifically. 

 

Everything that we think we own came from the earth. Even our own bodies. Our tabernacles of flesh came from the earth. There isn't anything on this earth that didn't come from God. It is ALL His property. And He gives it to us freely. He has taught us how to multiply it for everyone's benefit. The saints in Joseph Smith's day polluted their inheritances and failed to build Zion and were cast out into the wilderness and ended up in Utah. 

 

Until we learn to truly impart of our substance, to impoverish ourselves if necessary to make ourselves equal in all things--to have all things common, we cannot understand charity. How can we be pure in heart and dwell in righteousness if we envy those who have more? Or even if we envy the beggar when others impart generously to them? After all, he didn't earn it! He's taking advantage of hard working people like you and me! This thinking is damnable for we are ALL beggars to God, undeserving of the air, which He gives us to breathe. If you don't believe me, read King Benjamin's words. 

 

The simplest things to learn are not the easiest. We are still so far away from becoming Zion. We love the world too much, and we hate the beggars. We ignore them as we pass them by. This damnable thinking prevents us from becoming pure in heart, from becoming charitable, from becoming Zion. 

 

Oh if only it were that simple.

[skalenfehl]

Simple, yes. Easy? Nope!

[The Folk Prophet]

Simple, yes. Easy? Nope!

 

Disagree. If it were that simple then this would also be the clear and direct counsel of our leaders.

 

I can see what you're saying as an ideal. But if I were to simply willingly dump all my assets to take care of the poor, where would it leave me as far as the rest of my life and my ability to serve and do God's will? Certainly to feed the hungry and clothe the naked is a part of the gospel and part of becoming Zion. To imply that it's the end-all of it and the core path to getting there is an oversimplification.

Edited June 9, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Vort]

I can see what you're saying as an ideal. But if I were to simply willingly dump all my assets to take care of the poor, where would it leave me as far as the rest of my life and my ability to serve and do God's will? Certainly to feed the hungry and clothe the naked is a part of the gospel and part of becoming Zion. To imply that it's the end-all of it and the core path to getting there is an oversimplification.

 

Without being too specific, let me point out that our temple covenant is not that we abandon our riches, distributing them to the poor. The covenant is that we no longer consider "our" blessings -- money, time, talents, anything and everything -- to be ours, but rather to be the Lord's, and to be consecrated to the building up of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We cease to be owners and instead become stewards. But implicit in the call to stewardship is that we be wise, remembering the Lord's parable of the three stewards. Leaving ourselves impoverished by giving away all our substance would, in most instances, be unwise indeed.

[skalenfehl]

If I remember our temple covenants correctly, we do not consecrate of ourselves to the building up of the church, but rather, we consecrate to the church for the building up of Zion. I'm quite certain of this unless the endowment has been changed again. In any case, my addressing the poor is only one part of the equation and in answer specifically to Finrock. I still contend that consecrating of ourselves is simple (the concept), but not easy (the effort). But that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

[Vort]

If I remember our temple covenants correctly, we do not consecrate of ourselves to the building up of the church, but rather, we consecrate to the church for the building up of Zion. I'm quite certain of this unless the endowment has been changed again. In any case, my addressing the poor is only one part of the equation and in answer specifically to Finrock. I still contend that consecrating of ourselves is simple (the concept), but not easy (the effort). But that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

 

Zion, in the sense of being the kingdom of God, is the Church.

[Finrock]

Zion, in the sense of being the kingdom of God, is the Church.

 

Vort,

 

I hear what you are saying and it may be technically true, but I look around me and I do not see Zion as it is described in the scriptures. If it is true that the Church is Zion then what we are experiencing to me seems only a shadow of Zion. We are not one. We are not unified. We have poor among us. We do not have all things common. By any measure we (collectively) are not a Zion people, therefore this Church is not a Zion Church regardless of any title placed upon it. So, you may be technically right, but at the end of the day, we are still left with something less than Zion.

 

If the Church is Zion, which I certainly believe that is what it should be, then we must surely recognize that we are not yet living, as a Church, in a Zionic state. If we recognize that we aren't living up to Zionic principles or even living up to our covenants then perhaps then we have understood the scripture incorrectly. I think our prophets and many of our Church leaders are trying to teach us this distinction. Raising the bar, increasing missionaries, hastening the work, and many other efforts by the Church have been, in my view, a call for us to take upon us the greater mantle and start living the fullness of our covenants.

 

Because I know the scriptures and because of the covenants I have understood and have made, I cannot concede that we are in Zion. The Zion of ancient days is not here yet. So, if the Church is Zion then all is not well in Zion. I think that Zion, in its glory, is still to come and the Church is the organization that is being used to build up Zion. Once Zion is fully established, the Church organization as we know it will cease to exist. There will be no need for prophets, and apostles, etc. because we will all be one and unified in the faith.

 

-Finrock

[Finrock]

I believe that the apostles and Church leaders have been focusing on the distinction between the Church and the gospel of Jesus Christ in the last few years.

 

 

Sometimes we use the terms gospel and Church interchangeably, but they are not the same. They are, however, exquisitely interconnected, and we need both.

 

Elder Hallstrom

 

The Church is not the gospel of Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ is not the Church. They are both necessary and essential however they are not one and the same.

 

 

[W]e need the gospel and the Church. In fact, the purpose of the Church is to help us live the gospel. We often wonder: How can someone be fully active in the Church as a youth and then not be when they are older? How can an adult who has regularly attended and served stop coming? How can a person who was disappointed by a leader or another member allow that to end their Church participation? Perhaps the reason is they were not sufficiently converted to the gospel—the things of eternity.

 

Elder Hallstrom

 

I believe this distinction is important because I believe it is proper to say that Zion is the gospel of Jesus Christ but it is not proper to say that the Church is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Church is an essential tool to help convert people to the gospel of Jesus Christ, which when lived in its fullness means living Zionic principles or in Zion. Zion is the end state of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Church is a tool or an enabling power towards the gospel end state, which is Zion.

 

-Finrock

[skalenfehl]

There are many scriptures including those in the book of Isaiah and also D&C, which discuss Zion and a day when She will be redeemed. That day is yet future. Then Enoch will return as will the Lord with all the powers of heaven. What we have now is a type and a shadow. 

[Finrock]

I've gotten a bit off track from the main point being argued in my last couple of posts.

 

Vort

 

I do not think you can establish that non-Latter-day-Saints will live in Zion based on the use of the phrase "pure in heart".

 

Not by itself, but my intent has been to demonstrate how multiple pieces, when put together, do strongly suggest that Zion encompasses, overshadows, is greater than, and is more inclusive than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I understand the dilemna of agreeing to what terms mean, but, I trust what the words mean will eventually and ultimately come by the Spirit and so I will just tell you what I believe. First, I have been led to believe in the idea that the plain meaning is true and although there may be other meanings, they cannot take away the plain meaning. If we explain away the plain meaning then we explain away some very precious truths.

 

Mosiah 5 clearly shows a people who were sanctified before they made their baptismal covenants or before they were a covenant people. Therefore this argues against the idea that one must be a covenant people before one can be sanctified. This would suggest then that those who are sanctified can include those who are not members of the Church.

 

Mosiah 5

 

2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.

3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.

4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy.

5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God.

 

 

In this pattern the people were sanctified and then they made their covenants. They received a remission of their sins first and then covenanted that they would take upon them the name of Christ so that they can always retain a remission of their sins. I believe this is a true pattern.

 

-Finrock