Why Do You Face So Much Opposition?

[prisonchaplain]

This is not an infrequent topic here. Why do the antis hate LDS so? What's the real issue? Usually, the focus of the thread is for non-LDS posters to explain doctrinal disputes, and LDS posters to offer defenses, explanations, etc. My question is a bit different.

In my nearly two years here I have become impressed with the consistent stories of opposition. It seems that most LDS members who are open about their faith face disapproval from various sources. So, my question: What do you believe triggers it? Is it really about doctrines? If so, which ones prove the most contentious? Are there other factors? Maybe it's something silly, like, "Any religion that bans coffee can't be right!" Do not try to delve deep philosophy here. Rather, what is it that has triggered the opposition you have felt.

And just so it's clear, I'm not doing some research project or anything, I'll be open with my guess: at least from evangelicals, the triggers are indeed doctrinal: God having progressed from manhood, and men becoming gods is huge. Then, there's the faith/works discussion (2-3 strings on this right now). However, I'm wondering if there are other issues that lead to uncomfortable or heated opposition?

[CrimsonKairos]

A Lutheran guy I knew in a business law class in college argued with me about the Trinity and grace vs. works.

[sixpacktr]

PC,

I think a lot of it comes from ignorance of what we really believe (and I'm not calling them stupid, but ignorant, which I am on a lot of subjects). Once they really listen to what I say, there is more common ground than what they previously thought. The same goes for me, BTW. So when I ask and find out the answers as to why people believe what they believe, it helps me with my beliefs.

FWIW...

[pushka]

When I attended the LDS church from 1978 till 1982, I found that my family was opposed to the church because it was afraid that I would be sent off to live in America, and never see my family again. My dad, who likes to control people, was not happy that I no longer drank tea, coffee, coke or alcohol...I was only 14 so I shouldn't have been drinking alcohol anyway, but had been drinking it quite heavily the 2 years before.

My teachers and priest were against the doctrines, and I had 6 weekly sessions with the priest arguing the case for LDS doctrine at that time, also under the threat of being expelled from school if any of my friends attended the church with me...I was told I could only attend their social gatherings eventually, no sacrament meetings.

My friends at school just hated the fact that I felt so sure of myself and my new beliefs at that time, I think I might have come across as arrogant, unfortunately.

[Gabelma]

tbh I think I have only ever received serious opposition in real life from my foster parents before I got baptised- they were baptists and they had had experiences with their daughter and Jehovah's Witness.

And sadly my Mother - her problem is she it a bit of a control freak and the church is the one area of my life he has no control over and she doesn't understand. I think me standing upto her more would help,

I just have a take it or leave it attitude to my faith will talk to anyone about it whether I am on a bus or a train. And have faced more curiousity than anything else

Charley

[prisonchaplain]

Thank you for thoughtful responses. Pushka, yours seems to have convered the whole gambit of reasons. :-)

Has anyone ever heard the following, "I don't care of you want to be a Christian (or Jesus freak!), but a Mormon????"

Where does that come from?

[Traveler]

This is not an infrequent topic here. Why do the antis hate LDS so? What's the real issue? Usually, the focus of the thread is for non-LDS posters to explain doctrinal disputes, and LDS posters to offer defenses, explanations, etc. My question is a bit different.

In my nearly two years here I have become impressed with the consistent stories of opposition. It seems that most LDS members who are open about their faith face disapproval from various sources. So, my question: What do you believe triggers it? Is it really about doctrines? If so, which ones prove the most contentious? Are there other factors? Maybe it's something silly, like, "Any religion that bans coffee can't be right!" Do not try to delve deep philosophy here. Rather, what is it that has triggered the opposition you have felt.

And just so it's clear, I'm not doing some research project or anything, I'll be open with my guess: at least from evangelicals, the triggers are indeed doctrinal: God having progressed from manhood, and men becoming gods is huge. Then, there's the faith/works discussion (2-3 strings on this right now). However, I'm wondering if there are other issues that lead to uncomfortable or heated opposition?

I do believe that often there are reasons that are seen at the surface of things and then there are the deep rooted secrets that are often very different and hidden. First I want to make it clear that not all questions are opposition nor are all discussions arguments. I find much joy and learning through discussions of different views – especially yours PC. Often I say that nothing can be learned discussing points only with those with whom you agree.

But there is often another dimension to things. I wonder why some Traditional Christians are so harsh and bitter towards those with whom they do not agree. I believe the answer given to things found in scripture. I will begin with Matt 7:15. There are some that take on the character of a "ravening wolf" and intend spiritual harm. For some reason they think that by doing spiritual harm and tearing apart another faith they can win a convert. What better term than to call such religious zealots – false prophets of Christ

In the gospel of John we have a record of a collision of two ideas - both rooted in the ancient traditional Hebrew religion. Starting in chapter 6 Jesus offers answers questions asked by the Pharisees and Scribes. What is interesting to me is that the questions of the Pharisees and Scribes in scripture have a prophetic tone (type and shadow) and have an amazing parallel to many of the questions and accusations made against the LDS.

For example look at John 8:48. Here Jesus is called a Samaritan (non-Jew). This serves the same purpose and idea that anti's have in saying LDS are not Christian. Another one of my favorites in John 10:32-33. I once asked on the internet what it is that LDS have done to receive so much criticism from other Christians. The response so surprised me that I almost fell off my chair. The response was almost an exact quote of the last half of verse 33. I find many parallels in the gospel of John as Jesus deals with the Pharisees and Scribes. One lesson I have learned is that Jesus did not convince or convert many of the Pharisees and Scribes – most likely the LDS will not win many by this means either.

BTW - I started a thread about what Jesus taught about faith and works. It is interesting what Pharisees and Scribes say about salvation and their being saved by the grace of G-d and how Jesus answers their claim. Keep in mind that the Pharisees and Scribes were expert in scripture and quoted many of the same ideas in the same way some do in putting forth their religious ideas. I had hoped that some may see the interesting parallel to the various arguments on this subject - but alas, it appears few are interested in the manner this subject is dealt with between Jesus and the Pharisees and Scribes.

The Traveler

[Guest Yediyd]

Thank you for thoughtful responses. Pushka, yours seems to have convered the whole gambit of reasons. :-)

Has anyone ever heard the following, "I don't care of you want to be a Christian (or Jesus freak!), but a Mormon????"

Where does that come from?

Never heard the phrase...the opposition I most frequently run into here in NY is the ignorance about the church...the assumption that we are still polygamous...people hear I'm a Mormon, and they ask me stupid questions like: how many mothers do you have? Also, my baptist family think I am headed strait to Hell because I have decided I want to be a god, like Satan in Isaiah 14. That makes me laugh!!! They don't even live the beliefs they supposedly have!! I'm the only member of my family who regularly goes to church, does not smoke or drink alcohol, and does not abuse my children...and I'm going to Hell....go figure!!!!

[Elphaba]

Also, my baptist family think I am headed strait to Hell because I have decided I want to be a god, like Satan in Isaiah 14. That makes me laugh!!! They don't even live the beliefs they supposedly have!! I'm the only member of my family who regularly goes to church, does not smoke or drink alcohol, and does not abuse my children...and I'm going to Hell....go figure!!!!

That makes me crazy!

I don't really know what else to say. It's just so unfair, and so wrong.

Elphaba

[Alaskagain]

The greatest concern expressed by my non-member parents and a sibling who is a pastor in another denomination is their fear that I am following a false prophet.

I can't say that I have been the subject of any outright persecution because of my faith.

I come from a Christian church background, with many immediate and extended family members having been educated at Christian Colleges, such as the one located at Joplin, MO. Maybe you are familiar with it, PC.

[Guest Sono_hito]

The greatest concern expressed by my non-member parents and a sibling who is a pastor in another denomination is their fear that I am following a false prophet.

I can't say that I have been the subject of any outright persecution because of my faith.

I come from a Christian church background, with many immediate and extended family members having been educated at Christian Colleges, such as the one located at Joplin, MO. Maybe you are familiar with it, PC.

There are 3 primary things that i see that cause general misstrust or missgivings towards mormonism. (at least from generally informed people)

A: Several key teachings of mormonism are considered quite blasphemous to other main-stream denominations.

B: Mormon leadership has a history of hiding most parts of its unsavory history from its members and attempts to distance investigators from people who might have a critical view on such attempts. (even if those views are not contrary to historical documentation)

C: Mormon leadership also has a long history of white-washing or outright lying about portions of said un-savory history.

[Snow]

Why Do You Face So Much Opposition?, Answers based upon personal experience

90% of it is the stupidity, ignorance, fear, inferiority complex or malignancy of the opposer.

How do you explain stupidity, ignorance etc?

People are ignorant or stupid, etc. That's all.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>Also, my baptist family think I am headed strait to Hell because I have decided I want to be a god, like Satan in Isaiah 14. That makes me laugh!!! They don't even live the beliefs they supposedly have!! I'm the only member of my family who regularly goes to church, does not smoke or drink alcohol, and does not abuse my children...and I'm going to Hell....go figure!!!!

That makes me crazy!

I don't really know what else to say. It's just so unfair, and so wrong.

Elphaba That is why I left the Baptist church, EL...I got sick of the self-righteous, holier than thou attitude and the guilt trips. Also, the hypocrisy in my family turned me off as well, even though I know that my family doesn't necessarily represent the whole....I just got a bad taste in my mouth and when I discovered LDS...I felt like I had come home. I've always been on the "outs" in my family...so converting in spite of them was not hard...they never understood me BEFORE I was a Mormon...I just chose a different path than them and they hate me because they think I think I am somehow "better" then them...I don't feel that way...but...when I have to turn my own family in to child protective...I am doing what is right, but it is seen as betrayal by the lid keepers...what can you do? I am a pioneer in this church...I am a first generation Mormon. I still have a lot of uncharted territory I am walking through.

[Guest TheLordSaves]

It is sad to say, but many who profess the Name of Christ will not go to Heaven. Jesus said:

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect" -Matthew 24:24

We see that very thing today happening right before our eyes. There have been many people in history and even more now that call themselves "Christian." But they themselves show that they are far from it. Even the true Church, that is the Body of Christ, has been deceived through into believing the lies, and calling those unsaved saved. So many "churches" are hypocritical, as you've noted Yediyd. They say one thing. but do another. They focus so much on how to get rich, and get blessings and success. They neglect the Cross of Christ. They don't understand sufferings and persecution, and how to lay down your life for the gospel. Personally it's hard to be a Christian in America because our culture and the way we are raised make it so hard to lay all our desires before Christ and His will. The Church in other countries, especially communist Asia, have truly found the joy of Christ it seems. Are they gaining riches under communism. No! The government kills them, beats them, and throw them in jail. And yet they still praise God. Such spritual jow that I wish I had! I only pray that the Lord, therough whatever means, gets me to that place, that I could deny myself and follow Him even unto death. The the Church will be persecuted, they will be tested, it was said of in the time of Christ:

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me." - Matthew 24:9

Christ of the Last Days, and we are witnessing them now. So many have fallen away from the faith and have gone the way of the world proving that they were never a child of God in the first place. Such deception. You see, Christianity as become a title. Please don't look what you see the majority of "Christians" doing and believe that they are representative of Christianity was supposed to be, focused on the Bible and diligently following its Words. There are many Christians if you look deep enough that are not hypocrites and deceivers. If you hear a preacher speak one thing at church and he goes home and lives differently, go away for that place is dangerous, it broods deceptive spirits from the Devil. To be a Christian you follow the Word and "test the spirits" to see whether they are of Christ or a false prophet. And in America at least, it seems that there are many, but just remember that the true Church of Christ never falls away. God has always preserved a remnant that will seek Him with all of their heart.

As well to answer your question about why we are opposed to you...we are not "opposed" to you. If a blind deaf man was walking straight toward the edge of a cliff, would you not try to stop whatever way possible? What if he said, "Your just ignorant, let me do what I want to do!" What would be your responce, "Well you can do what you want, but you're about to die, turn away please!" For me, it's the same away, as Christians, bear with me now, we believe that what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other prophets taught are completely wrong. They are contrary to the proven accurate, tried and true, Bible the Word of God. Because of such major differences (the "Become a God" doctrine, "Jesus not The God" doctrine, "The Father once a sinful man" doctrine etc.) I fear for your very life after you die. I do not want any of you to go to Hell, but to reject the Words of Christ and follow after man's, how will you not be condemned? The time for games are over, out of love for you I say this. Truly! I don't hate you guys, but I believe deception has creeped in, Oh how sad will you be if you find that you are wrong on the Day of Juddgement. For me, if I'm wrong, I have the Tellestial Kingdom, maybe the Terrestial (as you guys have said). But if you are, it's Hell. Now tell me how I must not try to tell people this truth. You say "What right have you to tell me I'm wrong?" But I must, if I truly care about where you will go, and I know that I'm right according to the Bible. American culture, and even the professed "christian church" has denied the existance of Hell, but believe me, it's real.

"You are my witnesses," declares the Lord, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. " - Isaiah 43:10 (emphasis added)

"I and the Father are one." - John 10:30

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

"Become a God" doctrine

This is also known as theosis or deification. The LDS just call it "exaltation." This is a Christian doctrine through and through (although LDS might differ on some of the specifics). Methinks you might want to research it a bit. I'd start with the Early Christian Fathers (expecially those who lived before the counsel of Nicea)

"Jesus not The God" doctrine

Huh?

"The Father once a sinful man"

And again... Huh?

But if you are, it's Hell.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 page 315 (or maybe pg 316...)

"I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we are, if the society be good? I don't care what a man's character is; if he's my friend -- a true friend, I will be a friend to him, and preach the Gospel of salvation to him, and give him good counsel, helping him out of his difficulties."

PS.

The Greek and Hebrew words translated as "hell" do not necessarily support the Protestant redifining of it.

"You are my witnesses," declares the Lord, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. " - Isaiah 43:10 (emphasis added)

Audience and context (as well as Ancient Near East beliefs during this time, and those of Jews as well) might show you that this doesn't quite mean what you're trying to make it out to mean.

"I and the Father are one." - John 10:30

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." -- John 17:21

[Alaskagain]

I am neither blind nor deaf, nor walking towards the edge of a cliff. I know with all of my being that Gordon B. Hinckley is a prophet of God for our time. I know with all of my being that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that through him the Church of Jesus Christ was restored to this earth. I know with all of my being that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of our Father in Heaven, and that he was sacrificed to atone for all of our sins.

I have seen the prophet in person; he is not an enigmatic, charismatic speaker who seeks to waft his audience off to some magical state of believing something by hypnotic chants or propagandized oratory. He is a rather ordinary gentle and soft spoken man. He exudes the love of Christ. He truly has been called of God.

That is my testimony, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to share it.

[Doctor Steuss]

One more thought on this...

"You are my witnesses," declares the Lord, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. " - Isaiah 43:10 (emphasis added)

I'd like to recommend to you Margaret Barker's book "The Older Testament" (and no, she isn't a Mormon). Also, http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/MonotheismProblem.pdf (and this guy isn't Mormon either, just in case you're wondering). And also, here's a short thing that talks briefly about Margaret Barker's book: Paradigms Regained (although this one is written by a Mormon, so you can summarily dismiss it if you wish).

[sixpacktr]

But if you are, it's Hell.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 page 315 (or maybe pg 316...)

"I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we are, if the society be good? I don't care what a man's character is; if he's my friend -- a true friend, I will be a friend to him, and preach the Gospel of salvation to him, and give him good counsel, helping him out of his difficulties."

PS.

The Greek and Hebrew words translated as "hell" do not support the Protestant redifining of it.

Joseph Smith rocked! What a character!

[CrimsonKairos]

It is sad to say, but many who profess the Name of Christ will not go to Heaven...Oh how sad will you be if you find that you are wrong on the Day of Juddgement.

Seeing as how your username is "TheLordSaves," I'm guessing I already know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyway:

What do you believe someone must do to "go to heaven?"

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

It is sad to say, but many who profess the Name of Christ will not go to Heaven...Oh how sad will you be if you find that you are wrong on the Day of Juddgement.

Seeing as how your username is "TheLordSaves," I'm guessing I already know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyway:

What do you believe someone must do to "go to heaven?" I know what his answer will be...I was raised in the Hellfire, turn or burn type church!!!

Here is my answer!!

Thelordsaves,

You believe in accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior...so do we!!! We are the church of JESUS CHRIST, not the church of Joseph Smith!!

Thank you for warning me of the cliff...but it was one of your own who plucked out my eyes in the first place!!!!

[Snow]

As well to answer your question about why we are opposed to you...we are not "opposed" to you. If a blind deaf man was walking straight toward the edge of a cliff, would you not try to stop whatever way possible? What if he said, "Your just ignorant, let me do what I want to do!" What would be your responce, "Well you can do what you want, but you're about to die, turn away please!"

Egads - not the walking toward a cliff cliché again. Can't you guys get a new way to phrase to sound condescending with?

For me, it's the same away, as Christians, bear with me now, we believe that what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other prophets taught are completely wrong. They are contrary to the proven accurate, tried and true, Bible the Word of God. Because of such major differences (the "Become a God" doctrine, "Jesus not The God" doctrine, "The Father once a sinful man" doctrine etc.)

Bull Alert. They may be contrary to YOUR particular interpretation of the Bible but so what - you are not the arbiter of proper interpretation.

I fear for your very life after you die. I do not want any of you to go to Hell, but to reject the Words of Christ and follow after man's, how will you not be condemned? The time for games are over, out of love for you I say this. Truly! I don't hate you guys, but I believe deception has creeped in, Oh how sad will you be if you find that you are wrong on the Day of Juddgement. For me, if I'm wrong, I have the Tellestial Kingdom, maybe the Terrestial (as you guys have said). But if you are, it's Hell. Now tell me how I must not try to tell people this truth. You say "What right have you to tell me I'm wrong?" But I must, if I truly care about where you will go, and I know that I'm right according to the Bible. American culture, and even the professed "christian church" has denied the existance of Hell, but believe me, it's real.

Don't you feel kind of cheap and smarmy when you post over the top nonsense like that? Really - who writes your material? You should have a talk with them.

This is the thing that always gets me with you types - since you undoubtedly believe in faith-only and Mormons have faith, probably more than most Evangelicals, we, by your belief are saved. How on earth can we go to hell when we are saved according to your belief?

[prisonchaplain]

90% of it is the stupidity, ignorance, fear, inferiority complex or malignancy of the opposer.

How do you explain stupidity, ignorance etc?

People are ignorant or stupid, etc. That's all.

You handle that 90% rather handily, from what I've seen. B)

[prisonchaplain]

But there is often another dimension to things. I wonder why some Traditional Christians are so harsh and bitter towards those with whom they do not agree. I believe the answer given to things found in scripture. I will begin with Matt 7:15. There are some that take on the character of a "ravening wolf" and intend spiritual harm. For some reason they think that by doing spiritual harm and tearing apart another faith they can win a convert. What better term than to call such religious zealots – false prophets of Christ

There is a faction within the Christian world that believes a strong, uncompromising and direct attack on false teaching is the only course of action. They "contend for the faith," "rightly divide the Word," and they express their love for Christ by zealously guarding what they perceive to be his Word. Having said that, I do find that often people are "so right that they're wrong." In other words, their medicine is more sickening than the supposed disease (error) they are fighting.

For example look at John 8:48. Here Jesus is called a Samaritan (non-Jew). This serves the same purpose and idea that anti's have in saying LDS are not Christian. Another one of my favorites in John 10:32-33. I once asked on the internet what it is that LDS have done to receive so much criticism from other Christians. The response so surprised me that I almost fell off my chair. The response was almost an exact quote of the last half of verse 33. I find many parallels in the gospel of John as Jesus deals with the Pharisees and Scribes. One lesson I have learned is that Jesus did not convince or convert many of the Pharisees and Scribes – most likely the LDS will not win many by this means either.

I do see a parallel between Jesus' efforts to reform Judaism, with the result that it instead became a new religion, with Joseph Smith's effort to restore Christianity, but instead developing a Christianity that is not Catholic, Protestant, or any other subcategory. If Jesus was/is the Messiah, then Christians are the true inheritors of God's promises to the Jews. If JS was a prophet of God, then LDS are the restored Christians, and inheritors of the NT promises.

BTW - I started a thread about what Jesus taught about faith and works. It is interesting what Pharisees and Scribes say about salvation and their being saved by the grace of G-d and how Jesus answers their claim. Keep in mind that the Pharisees and Scribes were expert in scripture and quoted many of the same ideas in the same way some do in putting forth their religious ideas. I had hoped that some may see the interesting parallel to the various arguments on this subject - but alas, it appears few are interested in the manner this subject is dealt with between Jesus and the Pharisees and Scribes.

The Traveler

The Pharisees' arguments against Jesus were largely that he did not keep the commandments.

The greatest concern expressed by my non-member parents and a sibling who is a pastor in another denomination is their fear that I am following a false prophet.

I can't say that I have been the subject of any outright persecution because of my faith.

I come from a Christian church background, with many immediate and extended family members having been educated at Christian Colleges, such as the one located at Joplin, MO. Maybe you are familiar with it, PC.

I know of one in Bolivar, and Springfield, but you'd have to name the one in Joplin. All that comes to mind is Precious Moments. (which is in Carthage, actuallY)

[Guest TheLordSaves]

<div class='quotemain'>

It is sad to say, but many who profess the Name of Christ will not go to Heaven...Oh how sad will you be if you find that you are wrong on the Day of Juddgement.

Seeing as how your username is "TheLordSaves," I'm guessing I already know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyway:

What do you believe someone must do to "go to heaven?"

To submit your life to Christ. You say that you've done that. You indeed have faith in a Christ, but not the real one! The Christ that you believe contradicts the Christ of the Bible. The Bible says that you will know if someone is of God if they believe that Jesus in the Son of God. The greek for "Son" is not a literal word for "son," but it means more of "in realation" Such as If you believe in Christ you are my Brother, or Mother, or Sister. Not literally, but in relationship. Jesus is God, to say he isn't is to deny that He is the Son of God. He is called the "Son" because He is God that came to earth in the lowly form of human, taking His own curse upon mankind for Himself. If Jesus is not God, then how could His death pay for your sins? Mere man is not holy and worthy enough to pay for our sins. You deny the Divinity of Christ, you deny the very means for your salvation? And if you discredit His words, you don't even have faith in Him in the first place. When I say that many Christians who profess the Name of Christ will not go to Heaven, it's because they say they have faith but their lives to do not match, there's no fruit of a new life birthed inside them. You may have more "faith" than many of the evangelicals, but that mans nothing if you're faith is not in the real Christ. If it's not, it's idolotry.

I don't want to be telling you guys that you will go to Hell if you are Mormon, but the Lord has told me to do this and has given me the words to write. Repent of your ways and the Lord is merciful to forgive and redeem, if you would just come to Him. You believe that you have, but the truth is that you're far from Him because you've neglected Him, what He spok contradicts Joseph Smith and the BoM. Please, search the Word to find for yourselves whether I am right or wrong, I can only witness to you I can't change your hearts. God must reveal this to you if you'd only seek after truth and ask Him for understanding.

Don't you feel kind of cheap and smarmy when you post over the top nonsense like that? Really - who writes your material? You should have a talk with them.

Actually I wrote it, although I believe that the Holy Spirit gave me the words to say.

[CrimsonKairos]

TheLordSaves, your muddled comments signal to me that you are severely unsure about what is true and what is not. As a friend, let me point out to you the absurdity of your claims.

You indeed have faith in a Christ, but not the real one! The Christ that you believe contradicts the Christ of the Bible.

Ah yes, I remember reading where Jesus said, "And unless ye have faith that I am my own Son...figuratively speaking...then ye shall be cast off to my Father's right hand...which is my hand...because I'm my own Son and my own Father...figuratively speaking...and if ye do not believe this, ye are damned."

The Bible says that you will know if someone is of God if they believe that Jesus in the Son of God.

Where does it say this?

The greek for "Son" is not a literal word for "son," but it means more of "in realation"

The Greek word translated as "Son" in the KJV is huios, and can have different meanings based on context. So what? The English word "son" can mean different things based on context. I am my father's son, I am a son of America, I am a son of freedom, etc... Again, it's funny, but I don't recall Jesus saying we had to understand Greek to believe that he died to remit our sins and bring us back to God.

You sure rely alot on what Jesus didn't say when determining who is saved and who isn't.

Jesus is God, to say he isn't is to deny that He is the Son of God.

Dude, for the second time, LDS do believe Jesus is God, Jehovah of the Old Testament. Where are you getting your information from anyway?

He is called the "Son" because He is God that came to earth in the lowly form of human, taking His own curse upon mankind for Himself.

That has to be one of the most nonsensical things any Christian has said. The Bible teaches us that Jesus is the Mediator between man and God (see 1 Tim. 2:5). But you would have us believe that Christ is both the vengeful Father and the interceding Son.

If the Father and the Son are the same Being, then you've made the doctrine of Christ as Mediator redundant and false. Nice work.

I take the Bible at its word, and its word is that sinful man was cast from God the Father's presence, and Christ the Son of God the Father came to sinful man to help us back to God the Father, since sinful man can't enter the Father's presence on our own merits.

If Jesus is not God, then how could His death pay for your sins?

Again, show me where I or anyone else every claimed Jesus was not God.

And if you discredit His words, you don't even have faith in Him in the first place.

Precisely. It is you who is discrediting Christ's claim that he came to be our Advocate with the Father...you believe Christ is our Advocate with one of his own split-personalities.

When I say that many Christians who profess the Name of Christ will not go to Heaven, it's because they say they have faith but their lives to do not match, there's no fruit of a new life birthed inside them. You may have more "faith" than many of the evangelicals, but that mans nothing if you're faith is not in the real Christ.

Wait, wait, wait. First you claim faith must have works to match. But then you go back and claim faith has to be in your version of Christ. Guess what Christ said about who his followers (i.e. Christians) are. He said those who serve and love each other are his disciples (John 13:35). Period.

...the Lord has told me to do this and has given me the words to write.

Now was he wearing the Father's face when he told you to write this, or was he wearing the Son's face? I mean I know they're the same person (he said sarcastically), I'd just like to know which schizophrenic deity was speaking to you in this instance. I'm surprised he had time to stop mediating with himself to speak to you at all.

Please, search the Word to find for yourselves whether I am right or wrong

Been there, done that. You're wrong. B)