My Problem With Church Leadership

[Aphrodite]

Ok my post may have got swallowed up or ignored haha. So I thought Id try making it a new topic on my issues with the church leadership-and the church as an organisation in general.

What members tend to say is that while the gospel is perfect the leaders in it are not and make mistakes. Basically the tired old phrase the church is perfect the men in it are not which Im frankly sick of hearing.

The reason this bugs me is that we are then completely at the mercy of our imperfect leaders. What one Bishop decides is ok, another will utterly go against. People have their own ideas and agendas, and some people in leadership positions are downright nasty and can make your life difficult. Your church life can be miserable, and unprogressable, due to the fault of a leader. It can and does happen, Ive seen it myself.

So, my question is, why should we be affected by the decisions of a dodgy leader? Why should I live my life doing things that in all reality might be pointless? It feels like you're a pawn in a game led by a very specific and small number of people. You are totally at their beck and call, at their mercy. So what if they're wrong? You are doing things for them, not for the Lord, you are a victim of and are carrying out false actions on their part. So you are living your life for men and not for God. Yet in D&C it says whether it be out of my mouth or out of the mouth of my servants it is the same. That to me means whatever the 'called' decide he will support. which then contradicts the whole men are not perfect thing, as the lord is allowing them to make mistakes that adversely affect you. Am I making sense?

Plus, when you actually sit down and think about some of the things we have to do it does border on the ridiculous. Ive mentioned these things before, but when I come to my day of judgement I honestly do not believe that God will give two hoots how many earrings Ive got, what clothes I wear, what music I listen to. Im sure he'll be interested in my works, my charity and service, and what is in my heart. Not, hmmm you had two earrings. Off to the telestial kingdom with you!!!! It does seem ridiculous!!!!!!

Plus, prend, you are right, things do change!! The temple has changed so drastically over the years. Things have been taken out. So, are those things still relevant and we arent told about it, or are they irrelavnt in which case those people who had the old way did it for nothing?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but a few people have said 'have faith' and 'just trust in the Lord'. Thats all well and good, but thats basically saying, do it anyway and hope for the best. Faith is after all, basically 'hope' as Alma says, things which are not seen but which are hoped for. At the end of the day no one actually knows what will happen when we die. No one! No one has seen it, we havent been there. In short, we dont know. we just have to hope for the best, and hope its true. So, to just obey and do all that the church tells you seems so pointless. We SHOULD question, we SHOULD be taking control of our lives, evaluationg them all the time so we are doing whats best for us and our families. Not just sailing through doing random things taught by the church and hoping for the best.

My current thoughts and position on the church is this: I refuse to have my life dictated to me and led through the faults and weakness of men who think they're doing the best for me. I know whats best for me better than people at church! Therefore, I'll be the best person I can be on my and the Lords terms. Ill give service and charity, Ive devoted my life to caring for and looking after others with my career. Ill be the best wife I can be, Ill be the best Mother, I'll pray and talk to the Lord for guidance and to draw closer to him. Ill live the commandements. I'll read the scriptures as they generally teach the basics of christianity. Honesty, love respect for parents etc. Ill go to church sacrament meetings for the sacrament and to feel the spirit from the hymns. I do not wish to participate in sunday school or activities etc as you just get caught up in all the church rituals and rules that take away from the simplicity of christianity.

I dont hate the church, I just feel its slightly off the path for true christainity (due to the faults of 'men') and takes away the focus from faith works and charity. If I cut out all that and live it as basically as possible from a christian point of view, while still having a life, I believe when I die, if there is a God, which I believe there is but do not KNOW there is, he will say to me, well done thou good and faithful servant. Wow I feel really emotional having written that last bit. I feel its confirmed for me, I really felt really overpowered just now, that this is the right path for me, the right way to go. I think ppl will still make it if they're church members-theyve just gone a really long winded way about it. And thats upto people to decide. I dont think the temple rituals, signs tokens, etc will get me into heaven any more than saying hail marys will. Its how I am as a person, what I do to be a good christian. I believe with all my heart that this the right way for me and I wont be denied the blessings of heaven.

Any thoughts??

[Snow]

Any thoughts??

Yeah - you have an immature victim mentality.

How on earth could you have your life dictated to you at the mercy of LDS leaders? Only a person with a pathological underdevelopment of their own individuality would think such things.

Never once has anyone in the Church dictated anything to me. Never once have I been at anyone's mercy. I am completely active and have been my entire life and don't relate to anything you just said..

[CrimsonKairos]

Why should I live my life doing things that in all reality might be pointless?

Because they might not be.

You are doing things for them, not for the Lord, you are a victim of and are carrying out false actions on their part. So you are living your life for men and not for God.

Christ taught that those who accept his servants, accept him, and through him, his Father (Luke 9:48). If you are doing things for your leaders you are doing them for Christ. If you're asked to do "false actions" don't do them.

Yet in D&C it says whether it be out of my mouth or out of the mouth of my servants it is the same. That to me means whatever the 'called' decide he will support.

Well that would indeed be a perilous prospect if it were true. I believe what the scripture means is that if God has something to say to us, and if He gives those words to His mouthpieces the prophet and apostles to speak to us, we are to treat their words with the same respect we would give if God had come down and spoken them to us in Person.

I don't think it means, "Once you're in a calling go buck-wild and do whatever you feel like doing and I'll support you in those decisions." Most priesthood leaders have a sense of how God will call them to account based on how they presided over their stewardship. The majority of leaders I've known have been honorable men. I'm sorry your experience has been different.

I honestly do not believe that God will give two hoots how many earrings Ive got, what clothes I wear, what music I listen to. Im sure he'll be interested in my works, my charity and service, and what is in my heart.

What clothes we wear, what music we listen to, what we allow into our minds and bodies all directly affect what is in our heart, for good or ill. This spirit of rebellion can lead you to dangerous places if you heed it, Aphrodite. Perhaps you won't lose a place in the Celestial Kingdom because you wore two or three pairs of earrings. But how will you feel when God asks, "Why didn't you respect the advice and counsel of my mouthpiece on earth?" It's not the details, it's the attitude.

The temple has changed so drastically over the years. Things have been taken out.

So what? We are judged on our obedience to the gospel requirements we are asked to live, when we are asked to live them. It is never fruitless to obey or accept things that may change in the future. It's about cultivating an attitude of submission like unto Christ's. He submitted to a brutal scourging and execution on the cross...yet we sit here debating whether it is pointless to submit to what God requires of us, even if that might change in the future?

At the end of the day no one actually knows what will happen when we die. No one! No one has seen it, we havent been there.

Many, many men have seen it. I particularly enjoy Joseph Smith's account in D&C 76. It seems you're suffering from a crisis of faith, and for that I'm sorry. I do know what will happen to me when I die.

So, to just obey and do all that the church tells you seems so pointless.

Well if you're separating the Church from its founder, Christ, then it would be silly to do whatever some dude in an office tells you to do. I, however, view Christ as an active participant in guiding and blessing his Church and its leaders. It is never pointless to submit to Christ, even if that means accepting imperfect leaders for his sake.

I do not wish to participate in sunday school or activities etc as you just get caught up in all the church rituals and rules that take away from the simplicity of christianity.

Christianity is nothing more or less than this: Love your neighbor as Christ loves them. If Christ had patience with Peter's denials of him, and with Saul's persecution of the fledgling New Testament Church, I don't think it's too much for him to ask us to be patient with our leaders even when it's dang hard. But that's just me.

I dont think the temple rituals, signs tokens, etc will get me into heaven any more than saying hail marys will.

The temple is where we enter into the highest covenants with God. Keeping covenants is what God requires of us. It's not a matter of some pearly gates magically swinging open to admit us to heaven when we present a sign or token...it's a matter of approaching God through the covenantal framework He has revealed. It's doing things His way, not ours.

I hope you can acquire a witness of these things so that you can be at peace with the aspects of Christ's Church that trouble you, and not forfeit a closeness to God which He reserves for those who covenant with Him and keep His words (John 14:23).

[daytooremember]

do u remember your baptismal covenant ? one is to be obedient . that pretty much means we do what god asks of us and from his leaders . and they all have to answer to god like we do

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>Any thoughts??

Yeah - you have an immature victim mentality.

How on earth could you have your life dictated to you at the mercy of LDS leaders? Only a person with a pathological underdevelopment of their own individuality would think such things.If Aphrodite has a "pathological underdevelopment" then so do 99 percent of the members of the Church. Obviously "pathological" is ridiculous hyperbole in response to Aphrodite's concerns, which are very real and shared by many members who are afraid to speak up.

Members are taught their leaders have stewardship over them, which literally includes the notion that God inspires these member's leadership to counsel the particular member; therefore, the Church teaches this counsel comes from God. At least this is what I was taught when I was a member, and as I understand Aphrodite this is what she struggles with as well.

This is one of the reasons members are taught not to question their membership's counsel. Aphrodite's concerns are not an "immature victim mentality." They are an intelligent and mature woman's courageous questions asked of an orgaization that will very likely condemn her merely for even entertaining them. So far, everyone's response to her obviously distressing query is a case and point.

Elphaba

[Brother Dorsey]

Aphrodite, I went through a similar phase as you are going through now. 5 years ago when I became active again in the kingdom after a long long separation I finally developed a true testimony of the church, a true knowledge of Christ and the fullness of His Gospel. At this time I was wearing a mustache (which I had for 24 years). A few months earlier at our stake conference a general authority had quoted President Hinkley in his speech, he said, "wouldn't it be nice if all priesthood holders were clean shaven". Well, a few weeks after that our Bishop held council in the priesthood opening excercises for every priesthood holder to be clean shaven. He did make mention that it was our choice but he felt strongly that it was something we should do. I had a very hard time with it. I thought in my mind, "what does me having a mustache have anything to do with my salvation?" After a few weeks and prayer seeking guidance I was given the answer from the Lord. The answer was, "I have given you guidance!" I then realized that shaving my 'stash or not was not going to effect my salvation and my Bishop was my leader and I sustained him as that so I shaved it off. In the end it really didn't matter because it was just something of the world, something that really doesn't matter. I feel it was meant for me as a way for the Lord to test my obedience.

If my Bishop were to tell us to do something that was contrary to the Gospel or ordinances of the Gospel...then there would be a problem and he would no longer be a Bishop. In the meantime I remain clean shaven...and sustain my Bishop.

I have come to the realization that this is how satan works...first he gets you to question the small things like modest dress, wearing two earrings, being clean shaven, attending sunday school etc., once he gets you to accept his standard (the world's) he slowly wears away at your testimony and works on the larger things that effect your salvation like attending sacrament, keeping the words of wisdom, keeping the sabbath holy, attending the Temple etc..This eventually destroys your testimony altogether.

Just remember, satan does not bind you in heavy steel chains, he binds you in the finest softest silken thread which you like and enjoy and do not wish to break. But with Christ's love and eternal atonement you can have the desire again to live the Lords standard and break that which binds you to satan and the world.

[Elphaba]

I have come to the realization that this is how satan works...first he gets you to question the small things like modest dress, wearing two earrings, being clean shaven, attending sunday school etc., once he gets you to accept his standard (the world's) he slowly wears away at your testimony and works on the larger things that effect your salvation like attending sacrament, keeping the words of wisdom, keeping the sabbath holy, attending the Temple etc..This eventually destroys your testimony altogether.

Just remember, satan does not bind you in heavy steel chains, he binds you in the finest softest silken thread which you like and enjoy and do not wish to break. But with Christ's love and eternal atonement you can have the desire again to live the Lords standard and break that which binds you to satan and the world.

So, you sincerely believe that if you hadn't shaved your mustache you would be at risk of losing your testimony?

I'm not being sarcastic. I honestly can't see an adult not being able to make decisions about his/her own personal apperance, with the exception of modesty issues. I seriously can't see how making your own decision about this is going to lead to apostasy.

In other words, there are so many steps between deciding to keep your mustache and apostasy, and it seems to me it's your body, and therefore should be your decision. I don't understand this practice of interfering in personal fashion preferences, therefore creating even more unecessary "rules" that can be broken, and making the members feel guilty if they don't oblige. I just dont get this. Im talking about benign issues like shaving a mustache off, not the obvious such as dressing immodestly.

It just seems like its creating problems where there isn't one. Shaving your mustache is not going to cause you to apostasize.

Elphaba

Later edit: Brother Dorsey, please accept my apology if I have been gruff. I am not feeling well today. I stand by what I say, but perhaps it was not my place. I left it up so you can see what I think, but I dont really feel as strongly about it as it seems. Elphie.

[Gabelma]

-If its the way Your God is guiding you then I guess you need to follow it, being LDS isn't always the best way for people to reach their full potential. I am not about to knock your personal revelation, as its the bedrock of my faith

However don't expect people to automatically see the church your way for me its not remotely restrictive and the Temple as much about bringing me closer to God than the actual ceremonies so any changes aren't a a problem.

Charley

[Elphaba]

-If its the way Your God is guiding you then I guess you need to follow it, being LDS isn't always the best way for people to reach their full potential. I am not about to knock your personal revelation, as its the bedrock of my faith

However don't expect people to automatically see the church your way for me its not remotely restrictive and the Temple as much about bringing me closer to God than the actual ceremonies so any changes aren't a a problem.

Charley

I hear you Charley, but wait until they make you get rid of your pink hair!

I'm making a bigger deal out of it than it actually bothers me, although I still think adults should be allowed to make personal decisions about their own peronal appearance. But its really not that big a deal to me. I think it just hit me wrong.

Take care,

Elphie

[sixpacktr]

Aphrodite, I went through a similar phase as you are going through now. 5 years ago when I became active again in the kingdom after a long long separation I finally developed a true testimony of the church, a true knowledge of Christ and the fullness of His Gospel. At this time I was wearing a mustache (which I had for 24 years). A few months earlier at our stake conference a general authority had quoted President Hinkley in his speech, he said, "wouldn't it be nice if all priesthood holders were clean shaven". Well, a few weeks after that our Bishop held council in the priesthood opening excercises for every priesthood holder to be clean shaven. He did make mention that it was our choice but he felt strongly that it was something we should do. I had a very hard time with it. I thought in my mind, "what does me having a mustache have anything to do with my salvation?" After a few weeks and prayer seeking guidance I was given the answer from the Lord. The answer was, "I have given you guidance!" I then realized that shaving my 'stash or not was not going to effect my salvation and my Bishop was my leader and I sustained him as that so I shaved it off. In the end it really didn't matter because it was just something of the world, something that really doesn't matter. I feel it was meant for me as a way for the Lord to test my obedience.

If my Bishop were to tell us to do something that was contrary to the Gospel or ordinances of the Gospel...then there would be a problem and he would no longer be a Bishop. In the meantime I remain clean shaven...and sustain my Bishop.

I have come to the realization that this is how satan works...first he gets you to question the small things like modest dress, wearing two earrings, being clean shaven, attending sunday school etc., once he gets you to accept his standard (the world's) he slowly wears away at your testimony and works on the larger things that effect your salvation like attending sacrament, keeping the words of wisdom, keeping the sabbath holy, attending the Temple etc..This eventually destroys your testimony altogether.

Just remember, satan does not bind you in heavy steel chains, he binds you in the finest softest silken thread which you like and enjoy and do not wish to break. But with Christ's love and eternal atonement you can have the desire again to live the Lords standard and break that which binds you to satan and the world.

Bro Dorsey,

Very well said. I had a similar experience with wearing a white shirt, which has been elaborated in another thread. Needless to say, the color white isn't the issue: obedience is. Those that say "well, what is a white shirt; what is a little coffee; what is 2 earrings?" don't understand. It is about following what our leaders ask and having faith that we will be blessed for it. Those that would question something as trivial as a mustache or white shirt will not in all likelihood follow counsel for a year supply of food (I'll do it later), read the BOM in the next four months (why, I've read it time and time again, what's the point?), do your home teaching (but it's the Super Bowl!). Obedience, like faith, is built line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, and when HF sees he can trust you with small things then great things follow (Ether 12:6). And once that obedience is in place, then you are able to look beyond the faults of men and see the work of God.

I know that I am naive to some because I take this direction, but constant quibbling about someone hurting your feelings, or the attitude that a leader is fault ridden and so they have no right to tell me what to do are tools of Satan, and will lead to misery and woe. To believe otherwise is, instead, the thinking of a naive person...

[tiancum]

Ill give service and charity, Ive devoted my life to caring for and looking after others with my career. Ill be the best wife I can be, Ill be the best Mother, I'll pray and talk to the Lord for guidance and to draw closer to him.

You are in a position of leadership with your family if you have children. Are you going to teach your kids to follow you, to follow your councils? I bet you hope they do the first time they totter close to the street when your back is turned for that split second. Funny thing, (more beautiful than funny) the Lord protects them according to His plan, and heals them when they are hurt.

I guarantee you one thing, you will not be a perfect mother. Very far from it. (as I am not a perfect father...WHEW) But my HF has assured me that my beautiful children will be strong enough to over come my imperfections. You will, indubitably do things in contrary to the gospel at times, you will react with fear, anger and the rest (like we all do)...

If you are hurt by a leader, I promise you that the Lord will heal you, if you do your best to be obedient, but unfortunately we don't have that same blessing if we are not trying to do what the Lord has asked. He has asked that we follow our leaders, and council with them if we don't agree, or have felt a different answer having to do with something in our lives.

The only reason I say this is because I have been both, tasted both bitterness and sweet. (by bitter i mean bitter towards my leaders)

I know the Lord heals our wounds, when we turn our lives over to Him. If it involves following an imperfect leader, then so be it. (realize we are allowed to council with our leaders with the spirit...approach them and explain our point of view.)

If it as simple as wearing 2 earrings, find out what is inside you that is getting you caught up on something so small. The answer is inside you, not your leaders.

I wish you luck on your journey, it is a beautiful one. One in which we can become perfect witnesses of our Savior. One in which he can heal ALL our wounds, and forgive all our weaknesses/sins.

Now...what i said isn't perfect. There are some flaws, but there is also some good. Do not throw the baby out with the bathwater, in my case nor your leaders. <wink>

Peace out sista.

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'>

-If its the way Your God is guiding you then I guess you need to follow it, being LDS isn't always the best way for people to reach their full potential. I am not about to knock your personal revelation, as its the bedrock of my faith

However don't expect people to automatically see the church your way for me its not remotely restrictive and the Temple as much about bringing me closer to God than the actual ceremonies so any changes aren't a a problem.

Charley

I hear you Charley, but wait until they make you get rid of your pink hair!

I'm making a bigger deal out of it than it actually bothers me, although I still think adults should be allowed to make personal decisions about their own peronal appearance. But its really not that big a deal to me. I think it just hit me wrong.

Take care,

Elphie

LOL just because individual members make it restrictive doesn't mean the church has to be and they can't alter my thoughts and feelings, which for me is where I find the church amazing I love being able to contemplate the multiverse theory or eternal profression or anything I want and having that Iron Rod to give it perspective, without which the more I learn the less I would actually know:) and I am not going to complain if it means I get fewer callings:)- actually I may be going back to brown purely because I have found a natural hair colouring, they don't do it in pink :) but I would change it anyway if too offensive after all it really is just a hair colour I don't see it as a huge deal, but I am not shaving my legs in the winter or wearing makeup they would affect my quality of life. I have already sourced some pretty new age clothing that works in any situation.

Charley

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>Any thoughts??

Yeah - you have an immature victim mentality.

How on earth could you have your life dictated to you at the mercy of LDS leaders? Only a person with a pathological underdevelopment of their own individuality would think such things.If Aphrodite has a "pathological underdevelopment" then so do 99 percent of the members of the Church. Obviously "pathological" is ridiculous hyperbole in response to Aphrodite's concerns, which are very real and shared by many members who are afraid to speak up.

Absolute garbage. I used exactly the right word to describe such point of view.

99%? What an absurd and ludicrous allegation - and wholly false. I can't think of anyone (in real life) who fancies themself a victim at the mercy of their leaders - well there is one lady in our ward that thinks she's some sort of victim. She's wierd. She sometimes give her testimony in Church and everybody notices how bizarre she is.

Members are taught their leaders have stewardship over them, which literally includes the notion that God inspires these member's leadership to counsel the particular member; therefore, the Church teaches this counsel comes from God. At least this is what I was taught when I was a member, and as I understand Aphrodite this is what she struggles with as well.

This is one of the reasons members are taught not to question their membership's counsel. Aphrodite's concerns are not an "immature victim mentality. They are an intelligent and mature woman's courageous questions asked of an orgaization that will very likely condemn her merely for even entertaining them. So far, everyone's response to her obviously distressing query is a case and point.

Elphaba

There are children.... and then we grow up and accept responsibility for our own lives. No one makes decisions for me, no one imposes their will on me, no one usurps my role as an independent thinking being. Other people, including Church leaders have their own opinions. Organizations and people make rules, make judgements, try and influence others, sometimes try to manipulate others, etc. In as much as we are adults - not children, we either agree and go along, or disagree and not go along. The choice is ours. One may not like the consequences and wish one could have what ever one wants, exactly like one wants it, on their own terms - but that is the thinking of a child or a patholical narcissist.

I can't stand that immature victim mentality that some, fortunately a minority, adopt. The world would be a better place if people would grow up and act like adults.

[Fiannan]

Brigham Young taught that people should listen to his sermons and then pray, read the scriptures and essentially test the things he was teaching to see if they seemed to conform to the Gospel message. In my experience in the Church, and this is a gross generalization to be sure, there are different types of Mormons.

1) Everything that the leaders say in the Church is absolute truth and even if it did (hypothetically) totally contradict precident and the message of the scriptures these people would accept it.

2) People who believe the scriptures and the leaders of the Church and follow BY's above mentioned advice.

3) People who try to find something wrong with anything Church leaders say -- and even question the scriptures if they disagree with the person's personal ideology.

I would hope we could all be in the second category. True, we all have problems with something in our lives and know we have to improve them but attacking the teachings of the leaders is not a good idea. I've pointed out before that while the Book of Ester is not necessarily scripture it does bring up a mindset that the early Hebrews seemed to hold to. When the Persian King wanted his wife to come to his official party and parade nude for the guests she refused (hey, the Persians were known for long, drunken parties that would make college kids on spring break seem docile). The message was that she set a bad precident that should not go out to the empire because it questioned the wife's duty to listen to the husband. We can assume Ester had no problem with being naked at Persian parties. David's wife criticized him for public nudity and was punished with infertility. Miriam condemned Moses for taking an Ethiopian wife and was punished for a week with leporesy.

Yes, this may come across as promoting an authoritarian mindset but I am far from a conformist. I can question things the Church does or what an individual says in a high position but I will not go to the point of attack. That is a dangerous path that can lead to apostasy.

When I joined the Church I was against the stands the leadership took on ERA, abortion, birth control and a few other issues. After a while I did humble myself and study these issues carefully and that caused a shift in my opinion. Conversion is never overnight and takes effort. However, we have to have a mindset that leaves open the possibility that we might be wrong on any issue and then leave open the idea that LDS Church leaders may have an edge on inspiration or interpretation of issues and they at least deserve the benefit of our examining their teachings.

[Maureen]

Any thoughts??

And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile; then one's logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his or her spirit, because real conversion must come from within...

From "A Final Testimony," An Abundant Life: The Memoirs of Hugh B. Brown, edited by Edwin B. Brown

I think you're on the right path Aphrodite. It all comes down to your relationship with God. :)

M.

[Palerider]

Ok my post may have got swallowed up or ignored haha. So I thought Id try making it a new topic on my issues with the church leadership-and the church as an organisation in general.

What members tend to say is that while the gospel is perfect the leaders in it are not and make mistakes. Basically the tired old phrase the church is perfect the men in it are not which Im frankly sick of hearing.

The reason this bugs me is that we are then completely at the mercy of our imperfect leaders. What one Bishop decides is ok, another will utterly go against. People have their own ideas and agendas, and some people in leadership positions are downright nasty and can make your life difficult. Your church life can be miserable, and unprogressable, due to the fault of a leader. It can and does happen, Ive seen it myself.

So, my question is, why should we be affected by the decisions of a dodgy leader? Why should I live my life doing things that in all reality might be pointless? It feels like you're a pawn in a game led by a very specific and small number of people. You are totally at their beck and call, at their mercy. So what if they're wrong? You are doing things for them, not for the Lord, you are a victim of and are carrying out false actions on their part. So you are living your life for men and not for God. Yet in D&C it says whether it be out of my mouth or out of the mouth of my servants it is the same. That to me means whatever the 'called' decide he will support. which then contradicts the whole men are not perfect thing, as the lord is allowing them to make mistakes that adversely affect you. Am I making sense?

Plus, when you actually sit down and think about some of the things we have to do it does border on the ridiculous. Ive mentioned these things before, but when I come to my day of judgement I honestly do not believe that God will give two hoots how many earrings Ive got, what clothes I wear, what music I listen to. Im sure he'll be interested in my works, my charity and service, and what is in my heart. Not, hmmm you had two earrings. Off to the telestial kingdom with you!!!! It does seem ridiculous!!!!!!

Plus, prend, you are right, things do change!! The temple has changed so drastically over the years. Things have been taken out. So, are those things still relevant and we arent told about it, or are they irrelavnt in which case those people who had the old way did it for nothing?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but a few people have said 'have faith' and 'just trust in the Lord'. Thats all well and good, but thats basically saying, do it anyway and hope for the best. Faith is after all, basically 'hope' as Alma says, things which are not seen but which are hoped for. At the end of the day no one actually knows what will happen when we die. No one! No one has seen it, we havent been there. In short, we dont know. we just have to hope for the best, and hope its true. So, to just obey and do all that the church tells you seems so pointless. We SHOULD question, we SHOULD be taking control of our lives, evaluationg them all the time so we are doing whats best for us and our families. Not just sailing through doing random things taught by the church and hoping for the best.

My current thoughts and position on the church is this: I refuse to have my life dictated to me and led through the faults and weakness of men who think they're doing the best for me. I know whats best for me better than people at church! Therefore, I'll be the best person I can be on my and the Lords terms. Ill give service and charity, Ive devoted my life to caring for and looking after others with my career. Ill be the best wife I can be, Ill be the best Mother, I'll pray and talk to the Lord for guidance and to draw closer to him. Ill live the commandements. I'll read the scriptures as they generally teach the basics of christianity. Honesty, love respect for parents etc. Ill go to church sacrament meetings for the sacrament and to feel the spirit from the hymns. I do not wish to participate in sunday school or activities etc as you just get caught up in all the church rituals and rules that take away from the simplicity of christianity.

I dont hate the church, I just feel its slightly off the path for true christainity (due to the faults of 'men') and takes away the focus from faith works and charity. If I cut out all that and live it as basically as possible from a christian point of view, while still having a life, I believe when I die, if there is a God, which I believe there is but do not KNOW there is, he will say to me, well done thou good and faithful servant. Wow I feel really emotional having written that last bit. I feel its confirmed for me, I really felt really overpowered just now, that this is the right path for me, the right way to go. I think ppl will still make it if they're church members-theyve just gone a really long winded way about it. And thats upto people to decide. I dont think the temple rituals, signs tokens, etc will get me into heaven any more than saying hail marys will. Its how I am as a person, what I do to be a good christian. I believe with all my heart that this the right way for me and I wont be denied the blessings of heaven.

Any thoughts??

I have spent 10yrs of life serving as a Bishop/Branch President....I will say this to you....its always easy to sit outside and look in and make or offer criticism.....I do wonder how you would do it different if you ever were called to that Dictator position to get it back on course....keeping in mind you have to deal with all sorts of people and personalities and criticism etc. Don't forget the occasional cussing you get and whatever else I have left out. Have I seen it all....probally not.....But I will say....nothing surprises me.

[Fiannan]

For some reason this just seemed appropriate:

[sixpacktr]

I believe it was Harold B Lee that spoke of the man that confronted him one day after his brother had been excommunicated. He told Pres Lee that he knew that what they said about his brother was untrue, and that the high council had acted incorrectly. Pres Lee took up to his office and asked him several pointed questions, mainly having to do with worthiness, such as if he attended his meetings, read his scriptures, obeyed the WoW, etc., to which the man replied, in each case, that he didn't, but he had a real good reason for each one. Then Pres Lee said to him (paraphrase) that 15 of the best men in the such and such stake had heard the evidence, prayed about it, and had arrived at the decision they did thru the spirit, so where did he come off saying that God had told him differently?

In the same vein, I think that those that criticize leaders or think they are "off base" haven't gained a testimony of their calling, and also probably have never had the opportunity to serve as a leader and be shot at by those that "knew better".

Pale, you are 100% right. Most malcontents find it easier to shoot arrows than to understand the pressures the leaders are under and to be understanding and supportive. Instead, if someone says something just a tad against what they are convinced is right they decide that leader isn't "speaking for God" and shut everything else out. And then they find people in the ward/branch/stake to B&M to about that leader, and thereby spread their poison even further.

They better hope that the Lord doesn't judge them as harshly as they judge their leaders!

[kiwibabee]

Any thoughts??

Aphrodite

My thoughts are if you don't like it it shouldn't be true.

You start with Joseph Smith and Polygamy and you go up to the leaders today.

Either Joseph Smith is a Prophet or he is not.

I have my ears pierced twice but i have chosen to follow the prophet when he asked for the women to only have one. My husband is from New Zealand and as much as he wants to get a tattoo he has not, because the leaders have said not too.

I have four kids and yes it I look back and think it would have been great to get my education in first, but I would not trade my kids for anything, and the lord has provided.

I have left everything I hold dear to follow my Husband to New Zealand, that required a lot of faith and I still have to rely on the lord as I struggle being so far from home.

If the church was perfect with perfect people running it don't you think we would have been translated all ready.

If anything were to happen to me today I would be able to look him in his eyes and say "yes I did all that was required of me"

I may not agree with all my leaders have to say, but I support and sustain them.

[Winnie G]

Ok I have to say something, I get it I understand were your coming from Aphrodite,

I have in the 30 years I have been a member seen some real winners put in the position of authority and that Ok who got the wrong number when this call went out????

We had a bishop once that just about tore a ward apart along with damage done to my family,

How did We hang in there? Its simple, its our church too.

Yes man / women can be called to what we think is the wrong calling but as years have passed and time went by we look back to were we once were and seen what the now holds for that bishop, he is what I would call a MORE Humble Bumble. Knocked down a peg or two.

We learned a viable lesson that you can sustain a calling or in his case the mantle of his bishopbrick with out "Loving the man him self.

We ran in to him of all places Salt Lake during last springs conference, he is not the same used car selling blow hard he once was. The ward survived and was winnowed and is stronger and better.

Callings are not always for the membership it can be just for that one person.

If I had not lived though that I would not fully understand callings in their fullest and I am sure I have more to learn yet but for now I will always sustain someones calling and pray for them, not always what can it do for me.

[Elphaba]

Absolute garbage. I used exactly the right word [pathological] to describe such point of view.

Perhaps some definitions are in order:

1 diseased, morbid, pathologic, pathological caused by or altered by or manifesting disease or pathology; "diseased tonsils"; "a morbid growth"; "pathologic tissue"; "pathological bodily processes" 2 pathological caused by or evidencing a mentally disturbed condition; "a pathological liar"; "a pathological urge to succeed

Asking a question does not make one “pathological,” which is what Aphrodite did. Every human being has the right to ask questions. Overreacting to his/her questions with hyperbolic psychiatric labels is a weak response and unnecessary.

One may not like the consequences and wish one could have what ever one wants, exactly like one wants it, on their own terms - but that is the thinking of a child or a patholical [sic] narcissist.

narcissistic A adjective 1 egotistic, egotistical, narcissistic, self-loving characteristic of those having an inflated idea of their own importance

If Aphrodite is being narcissistic, then I suggest you take a look in the mirror.

In fact, I suspect you didn’t really read her OP. Because if you had, you’d see that you jumped on her for having the same belief system you do.

99%? What an absurd and ludicrous allegation - and wholly false.

I never said 99 percent of the members are pathological. I said if Aphrodite is pathological, then so are the members. She is not pathological, as the definitions above clearly display; therefore, neither are the members. You are such a firecracker just hopping around ready to set yourself off that you don’t take the time to really read the post.

Additionally, your outrageous use of serious psychiatric disorders to label Aphrodite’s perfectly normal behaviors demeans your argument. It appears adolescent, and over reactive and makes you look ridiculous.

If you had really read Aprhodite’s OP, you’d see she agrees with you.

Breath. Read. Comprehend. Respond. But lose the hyperbole.

Elphaba

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>Absolute garbage. I used exactly the right word [pathological] to describe such point of view.

Perhaps some definitions are in order:

1 diseased, morbid, pathologic, pathological caused by or altered by or manifesting disease or pathology; "diseased tonsils"; "a morbid growth"; "pathologic tissue"; "pathological bodily processes" 2 pathological caused by or evidencing a mentally disturbed condition; "a pathological liar"; "a pathological urge to succeed

Asking a question does not make one “pathological,” which is what Aphrodite did. Every human being has the right to ask questions. Overreacting to his/her questions with hyperbolic psychiatric labels is a weak response and unnecessary.

It was an unhealthy or abnormal point of view. Maybe my choice of words is a bit strong, maybe not, but people should grow up and stop playing the victim.

If Aphrodite is being narcissistic, then I suggest you take a look in the mirror.

In fact, I suspect you didn’t really read her OP. Because if you had, you’d see that you jumped on her for having the same belief system you do.

Hardly.

I do not believe that my life is dictated to me by dodgy Church leaders. In fact I don't have anything dictated to me by anyone in the Church. I choose. Period - plain and simple.

I do not believe that our leaders are dodgy. I believe that they do a superior job and are to be thanked and commended. They aren't perfect but on balance - they are pretty darn incredible.

I never said 99 percent of the members are pathological. I said if Aphrodite is pathological, then so are the members. She is not pathological, as the definitions above clearly display; therefore, neither are the members. You are such a firecracker just hopping around ready to set yourself off that you don’t take the time to really read the post.

Pay attention. You said that 99% of the people in the Church are like the OP and that is simply untrue. The majority of the Church does not play the victim and whine about dodgy dictators in the Church.

Additionally, your outrageous use of serious psychiatric disorders to label Aphrodite’s perfectly normal behaviors demeans your argument. It appears adolescent, and over reactive and makes you look ridiculous.

If you had really read Aprhodite’s OP, you’d see she agrees with you.

Breath. Read. Comprehend. Respond. But lose the hyperbole.

Elphaba

You aren't going to get far complaining about my language skills. Pathological need not be a "serious psychiatric disorders." It can simply refer to a minor mental defect or to anything that is abnormal, a deviation from a normal healthy condition. Had you bothered to look up a word that you don't understand you might have come across as credible.

pathology

n 1: the branch of medical science that studies the causes and

nature and effects of diseases

2: any deviation from a healthy or normal condition

http://dict.die.net/pathology/

[CrimsonKairos]

Snow, I have to agree with your take on this.

A healthy view--in my opinion--would be to sustain leaders even if they are imperfect, because we are learning to be submissive to God as Christ is.

A deviation from that view--to wit, an unhealthy view--would be that all leaders are uninspired, just guessing as they go, not to be taken seriously, and only to be tolerated as a necessary evil.

So yeah, pathological contempt for priesthood leadership. Nice way to put it.

[Elphaba]

It was an unhealthy or abnormal point of view. Maybe my choice of words is a bit strong, maybe not, but people should grow up and stop playing the victim.

Aphrodite wasn't doing that. She was asking questions, which is not pathological, but is a very health thing for human beings to do.

I do not believe that my life is dictated to me by dodgy Church leaders. In fact I don't have anything dictated to me by anyone in the Church. I choose. Period - plain and simple.

And if you were to go back and actually read Aphrodite's OP, you would see she believes the same thing, at least that is how I read it. However, she is not as far along the path as you are. She has questions. Asking those questions does not make her a victim. It makes a courageous person. Overreacting to her questions is the more outrageous behavior.

Pay attention. You said that 99% of the people in the Church are like the OP and that is simply untrue. The majority of the Church does not play the victim and whine about dodgy dictators in the Church.

No I did not say that.

You aren't going to get far complaining about my language skills.

Then stop using emotionally charged words inappropriately.

Pathological need not be a "serious psychiatric disorders." It can simply refer to a minor mental defect or to anything that is abnormal, a deviation from a normal healthy condition. Had you bothered to look up a word that you don't understand you might have come across as credible.

Obviously I looked up the word as I had posted a definition to it above. Again you demonstrate you do not take the time to actually read the post.

pathology

n 1: the branch of medical science that studies the causes and

nature and effects of diseases

2: any deviation from a healthy or normal condition

http://dict.die.net/pathology/

Neither your definition nor mine applies to Aphrodite based on her post, as she is not acting abnormally.

Elphaba

[Aphrodite]

I am completely active and have been my entire life and don't relate to anything you just said..

Why are you telling me that?Do you think that by being active your whole life and never having a problem in the church makes you somehow superior? Coz thats the feeling Im getting.

Yeah - you have an immature victim mentality

How does having problems and issues with certain aspects of the church Ive been brought up in my entire life make me immature? If I was immature Id have said F the lot of it months ago and gone and done what I want. Instead I am asking for peoples advice and thoughts on my problems and issues to see how I can best cope with what is to me a distressing situation. I am thinking and pondering deeply on all my issues with the church. If I didnt care do you think Id be here? Your response is just so typical of so many self righteous members. You're whining, you're immature, etc, Just because they cant relate to you. Just because you are obviously so perfect Snow, doesnt mean peopel like me are less worthy. As someone said, we are at different stages. Isnt the gospel about learning and growing?? You're snobby and self righteous attitude isnt consistent with how a church member is supposed to behave.

I hope you can acquire a witness of these things so that you can be at peace with the aspects of Christ's Church that trouble you, and not forfeit a closeness to God which He reserves for those who covenant with Him and keep His words (John 14:23).

me too

They are an intelligent and mature woman's courageous questions asked of an orgaization that will very likely condemn her merely for even entertaining them.

As snow proved with his post!

In the end it really didn't matter because it was just something of the world, something that really doesn't matter.

Brother Dorsey thank you for your kind post. You have just made the point I have been trying to get across-its 'just' something of the world. Exactly!! It doesnt matter!!! Thats my point. We arent going to take this stuff with us. If wearing certain clothes or hairstyles etc makes me feel happy and good about myself, why should it matter? We wont be tattooed and pierced in the next life. But if it makes me temporarily, earthly happy or whatever and helps me along my journey, surely thats then a good thing? Instead, by wanting to do some things we are beiing 'disobedient' or 'selfish' or 'immature'. Then you're made to feel like a sinner for having the audacity to even entertain wanting to take part in something of 'the world'. We live in this world after all. The church seems to have a habit of thinking up things to now be classified as 'sins' that are so trivial, when there are more weighty issues to worry about.

I feel it was meant for me as a way for the Lord to test my obedience.

Thats what gets me-This image of God sitting up there in heaven thinking up yet more things to test us on. Havent we got enough to be getting on with? As if life isnt full enough of tests already. I dont even see them as tests, I see it as, 'life' and get on with it. As the saying goes stuff happens (although it isnt stuff lol). I cant honestly believe the Lord is delighting in my troubles, rubbing his hands together and thinking, what shall I give her next?? Take away her music, ok lets make that a sin. Ooh I know she loves books, lets make reading a sin. Thats where my issues with leaders come in. I think its misguided judgment, and not what the Lord wants.

well there is one lady in our ward that thinks she's some sort of victim. She's wierd. She sometimes give her testimony in Church and everybody notices how bizarre she is.

She sounds like she obviously has problems. Maybe you should go and talk to her and see if there's anything you can do to help her.

we either agree and go along, or disagree and not go along

There it goes again, the staunch black and white opinion of a closed minded member. Snow, I take it you must have had a pretty easy and uneventful life to say such a thing. Nothing is ever that simple. There are more grey areas than not. If things were that black and white you'd have church full of obedient non questioning clones, sorry people, like yourself, and anti mormons who hate you. That is not the case atall. Only someone with a pathological underdevelopment of their own awareness on their social situation and surroundings would think such things

I have spent 10yrs of life serving as a Bishop/Branch President....I will say this to you....its always easy to sit outside and look in and make or offer criticism.....I do wonder how you would do it different if you ever were called to that Dictator position to get it back on course....keeping in mind you have to deal with all sorts of people and personalities and criticism etc. Don't forget the occasional cussing you get and whatever else I have left out. Have I seen it all....probally not.....But I will say....nothing surprises me.

I appreciate its an unenviable job Pale. Im sure you did a great job.

For some reason this just seemed appropriate:

Yet another typical church response-you have issues and you voice them and you're 'whining' instead of trying to work through your problems, which is the whole reason I joined this site in the first place. The church can be a lonely place when you're seen to be whining and no one wants to help you. I find it interesting that Elphaba has stuck up for my own beliefs as an individual, and recognises that this is a distressing situation for me, Wheras the 'members' have insulted me and told me to stop whining. Thats Christ like love for ya, and yet another issue I have with the church-non members seem to be more christian and christ like than the members.

And if you were to go back and actually read Aphrodite's OP, you would see she believes the same thing, at least that is how I read it. However, she is not as far along the path as you are. She has questions. Asking those questions does not make her a victim. It makes a courageous person. Overreacting to her questions is the more outrageous behavior.

Absolutely. Thanks Elphie

So, who here thinks that if I sat down with God and told him my problems, he'd say, 'you immature child. Get on with it and stop whining', or do you think he'd say, 'I love you my child,' and counsel me to stay strong and then show me the way. So to those with unhelpful posts, Take note. Snow, if the former God I mentioned is the God you believe in you dont belong in a christian church.

I am completely active and have been my entire life and don't relate to anything you just said

Why are you telling me that?Do you think that by being active your whole life and never having a problem in the church makes you somehow superior? Coz thats the feeling Im getting.

Yeah - you have an immature victim mentality

How does having problems and issues with certain aspects of the church Ive been brought up in my entire life make me immature? If I was immature Id have said F the lot of it months ago and gone and done what I want. Instead I am asking for peoples advice and thoughts on my problems and issues to see how I can best cope with what is to me a distressing situation. I am thinking and pondering deeply on all my issues with the church. If I didnt care do you think Id be here? Your response is just so typical of so many self righteous members. You're whining, you're immature, etc, Just because they cant relate to you. Just because you are obviously so perfect Snow, doesnt mean peopel like me are less worthy. As someone said, we are at different stages. Isnt the gospel about learning and growing?? You're snobby and self righteous attitude isnt consistent with how a church member is supposed to behave.

I hope you can acquire a witness of these things so that you can be at peace with the aspects of Christ's Church that trouble you, and not forfeit a closeness to God which He reserves for those who covenant with Him and keep His words (John 14:23).

me too

They are an intelligent and mature woman's courageous questions asked of an orgaization that will very likely condemn her merely for even entertaining them.

As snow proved with his post!

In the end it really didn't matter because it was just something of the world, something that really doesn't matter.

Brother Dorsey thank you for your kind post. You have just made the point I have been trying to get across-its 'just' something of the world. Exactly!! It doesnt matter!!! Thats my point. We arent going to take this stuff with us. If wearing certain clothes or hairstyles etc makes me feel happy and good about myself, why should it matter? We wont be tattooed and pierced in the next life. But if it makes me temporarily, earthly happy or whatever and helps me along my journey, surely thats then a good thing? Instead, by wanting to do some things we are beiing 'disobedient' or 'selfish' or 'immature'. Then you're made to feel like a sinner for having the audacity to even entertain wanting to take part in something of 'the world'. We live in this world after all. The church seems to have a habit of thinking up things to now be classified as 'sins' that are so trivial, when there are more weighty issues to worry about.

I feel it was meant for me as a way for the Lord to test my obedience.

Thats what gets me-This image of God sitting up there in heaven thinking up yet more things to test us on. Havent we got enough to be getting on with? As if life isnt full enough of tests already. I dont even see them as tests, I see it as, 'life' and get on with it. As the saying goes stuff happens (although it isnt stuff lol). I cant honestly believe the Lord is delighting in my troubles, rubbing his hands together and thinking, what shall I give her next?? Take away her music, ok lets make that a sin. Ooh I know she loves books, lets make reading a sin. Thats where my issues with leaders come in. I think its misguided judgment, and not what the Lord wants.

well there is one lady in our ward that thinks she's some sort of victim. She's wierd. She sometimes give her testimony in Church and everybody notices how bizarre she is.

She sounds like she obviously has problems. Maybe you should go and talk to her and see if there's anything you can do to help her.

we either agree and go along, or disagree and not go along

There it goes again, the staunch black and white opinion of a closed minded member. Snow, I take it you must have had a pretty easy and uneventful life to say such a thing. Nothing is ever that simple. There are more grey areas than not. If things were that black and white you'd have church full of obedient non questioning clones, sorry people, like yourself, and anti mormons who hate you. That is not the case atall. Only someone with a pathological underdevelopment of their own awareness on their social situation and surroundings would think such things

I have spent 10yrs of life serving as a Bishop/Branch President....I will say this to you....its always easy to sit outside and look in and make or offer criticism.....I do wonder how you would do it different if you ever were called to that Dictator position to get it back on course....keeping in mind you have to deal with all sorts of people and personalities and criticism etc. Don't forget the occasional cussing you get and whatever else I have left out. Have I seen it all....probally not.....But I will say....nothing surprises me

I appreciate its an unenviable job Pale. Im sure you did a great job.

For some reason this just seemed appropriate:

Yet another typical church response-you have issues and you voice them and you're 'whining' instead of trying to work through your problems, which is the whole reason I joined this site in the first place. The church can be a lonely place when you're seen to be whining and no one wants to help you. I find it interesting that Elphaba has stuck up for my own beliefs as an individual, and recognises that this is a distressing situation for me, Wheras the 'members' have insulted me and told me to stop whining. Thats Christ like love for ya, and yet another issue I have with the church-non members seem to be more christian and christ like than the members.

And if you were to go back and actually read Aphrodite's OP, you would see she believes the same thing, at least that is how I read it. However, she is not as far along the path as you are. She has questions. Asking those questions does not make her a victim. It makes a courageous person. Overreacting to her questions is the more outrageous behavior.

Absolutely. Thanks Elphie

So, who here thinks that if I sat down with God and told him my problems, he'd say, 'you immature child. Get on with it and stop whining', or do you think he'd say, 'I love you my child,' and counsel me to stay strong and then show me the way. So to those with unhelpful posts, Take note. Snow, if the former God I mentioned is the God you believe in you dont belong in a christian church.