My Problem With Church Leadership

[sixpacktr]

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

(Matthew 23:29 - 33)

And this:

4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

(Mark 6:4)

Those that nitpick every little thing, and those that think their leaders are "out of the way" are under the same spirit as that described by our Savior when talking of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

"Everything would be alright if they just followed the gospel Joseph preached". "David O McKay had it right, but these guys today..."

Guess what? If you have this type of spirit now, it would have been the same then. You would find fault with anyone, including the Savior. He was rather harsh to the Pharisees and Sadducees, don't you think? But they deserved it, and the rebuke was due to the spirit they carried. Don't you think that perhaps, just perhaps, the leaders today should do the same thing?

Life ain't a game, folks. It is deadly serious, and our eternal destinies are at stake. No one has ever forced me to do anything in the church. I have been directed, however, and have either taken that with the measure of obedience I should have or else not, and have reaped the rewards for both courses of action.

Don't think for one minute you are simply exercising your independence by standing up to leaders, or casting stones at them because they tell you something. You are, in fact, snubbing your nose at the Lord and his anointed. It is really that simple...

[Guest Yediyd]

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

(Matthew 23:29 - 33)

And this:

4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

(Mark 6:4)

Those that nitpick every little thing, and those that think their leaders are "out of the way" are under the same spirit as that described by our Savior when talking of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

"Everything would be alright if they just followed the gospel Joseph preached". "David O McKay had it right, but these guys today..."

Guess what? If you have this type of spirit now, it would have been the same then. You would find fault with anyone, including the Savior. He was rather harsh to the Pharisees and Sadducees, don't you think? But they deserved it, and the rebuke was due to the spirit they carried. Don't you think that perhaps, just perhaps, the leaders today should do the same thing?

Life ain't a game, folks. It is deadly serious, and our eternal destinies are at stake. No one has ever forced me to do anything in the church. I have been directed, however, and have either taken that with the measure of obedience I should have or else not, and have reaped the rewards for both courses of action.

Don't think for one minute you are simply exercising your independence by standing up to leaders, or casting stones at them because they tell you something. You are, in fact, snubbing your nose at the Lord and his anointed. It is really that simple...

I just got back out here after a slight hiatus, and I haven't had the time to read this whole thread, but this comment by Six is spot-on!!!!

I have never even considered,not even once...second guessing my Bishop. I was shocked to find out that there are people out there who turn down callings!!! Can't imagine!!!

You go, Six!! Excellent post!!!

[Gabelma]

29 Woe unto you, scribes and

I have never even considered,not even once...second guessing my Bishop. I was shocked to find out that there are people out there who turn down callings!!! Can't imagine!!!

You go, Six!! Excellent post!!!

I have - I went to my Stake Presidency and said I was no longer in a position where I could sustain the Branch Presidency until I had handed the situation over to them and that if they were called again I couldn't in all conscience raise my hand to sustain them. There was nothing wrong with the men involved all lovely guys but they were being bullied by some forceful sisters - everyone in the situation believed they were doing the right thing but what was happening had brought our branch to the point where the spirit present on a Sunday was evil - I could not sustain that. Branch Presidency was reorganised shortly afterwards. And I wish I had turned down the calling, I had, had a strong feeling I should, but had accepted it at the time it nearly destroyed my faith, not just in the church in God himself. We are entitled to our own revelation on matters and I do now unless I have a straight testimony of the calling ask if I can go away and pray about it.

Our branch was in a dire situation, set after set of missionaries were going away despondant they were terrified of bringing investigators to our branch. However I do have faith that as bad as the problems were the people in those positions were placed there by the Lord as a result of 20 years of problems now in the process of being healed and overcome is probably one of the best examples of a unit in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I know I have been humbled again, and again and asked to reasses my feelings. If we hadn't had those problems and if I hadn't had that disaster of a calling the branch wouldn't be quite as special as it is now or growing as quickly as it is. (last year there was one child in primary, this year we have 15). Ironically this has happened with everyone involved repenting, people learning to forgive and forget and one member of the same branch presidency being called again.

It has also taught be to trust that even the bad situations can be part of God's plan, because out of the greatest evil comes the greatest good - Its not a case of trusting your Bishop etc its a case of trusting the Lord knows what is right for everyone, that he knew why he called that Bishop - even if you are having a hard time as a result of someone being called that hard time is a time of growth for you

-Charley

[Doctor Steuss]

A few quotes to ponder:

"I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually."

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150

"But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right."

D&C 9:8.

"Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know[ing] that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil"

Josehp F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992)

"Now, we do not believe in blind obedience, but we do believe in discerning obedience. Every one of us is entitled to enjoy discernment. What is discernment? It is recognizing the difference between right and wrong, or developing clearness of judgment or insight. If we are living the Gospel we are entitled to enjoy the light of the Holy Spirit to guide and bless us, to enable us to judge rightly. We do not have to accept the judgment or counsel of the man who stands at the head of the Church here upon the earth; but we will know that the things he advises are right, if we will divorce ourselves from personal or political desire or ideas. We should strive to enjoy the spirit of discernment. The Apostle Paul tells us that one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost is the discernment of spirits. In like manner one of the gifts is discernment of right and wrong. What a wonderful thing it will be when we shall all learn correct principles, and have the discernment to govern ourselves in righteousness. Then we shall grow in justice and fair dealing, we shall avoid strife and contention, we shall enact and administer equitable laws, and improve in temporal and spiritual things. The Lord will prosper this people temporally as well as spiritually if we control our selfish feelings and strive to carry out his purposes."

Sylvester Q. Cannon, Conference Report, April 1937, Afternoon Meeting, 83-84

And of course, the letter George Albert Smith wrote after a little quote inadvertantly made its way into a church publication that suggested blind obedience:

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

Office of the First Presidency

Salt Lake City, Utah

December 7, 1945

Dr. J. Raymond Cope

First Unitarian Society

13th East at 6th South Street

Salt Lake City, Utah

My dear Dr. Cope:

I have read with interest and deep concern your letter of November 16, 1945, in which you make special comment on "a short religious editorial prepared by one of your (our) leaders entitled "Sustaining the General Authorities of the Church'". You say that you read the message with amazement, and that you have since been disturbed because of its effect upon members of the Church.

I am gratified with the spirit of friendliness that pervades your letter, and thank you for having taken the time to write to me.

The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not "prepared" by "one of our leaders." However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.

I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.

On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."

I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.

In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:

"Know this, that every soul is free

To choose his life and what he'll be,

For this eternal truth is given

That God will force no man to heaven."

Again I thank you for your manifest friendliness and for your expressed willingness to cooperate in every way to establish good will and harmony among the people with whom we are jointly laboring to bring brotherhood and tolerance.

Faithfully yours,

Geo. Albert Smith [signed]

George A. Smith Papers (Manuscript no. 36, Box 63-8A), Special Collections, Marriott Library, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah. Can also be found in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19:1 (Spring 1986), 35-39

[sixpacktr]

Doc S,

I agree 100% with what you posted, but what was your intent? To show that it is okay to question the leaders and do as you think is right? Or (and this is what I think you were getting to) to show that we all need to be prophets (Numbers 11:29), gain our own testimonies of the gospel and our callings and the callings of our leaders, and move forward from there? If everyone would gain their own testimonies and move forward accordingly, there would be almost no bickering, because we would all have the Spirit to help us along. But since this is a church full of people feeling their way, we have people at many different stations in life--spiritually, emotionally, and physically. So there is room for disagreements and contention...

We should pray about EVERY thing we hear at church, about EVERY calling we receive, about EVERY scripture we read to determine for ourselves, by the Spirit, the will of God for us and the truthfulness of those things. But there is a line between obeying because we have a testimony, obeying blindly, and then disobeying because "how dare someone tell me that I shouldn't have 2 earrings"...

[Doctor Steuss]

Doc S,

I agree 100% with what you posted, but what was your intent? To show that it is okay to question the leaders and do as you think is right? Or (and this is what I think you were getting to) to show that we all need to be prophets (Numbers 11:29), gain our own testimonies of the gospel and our callings and the callings of our leaders, and move forward from there? If everyone would gain their own testimonies and move forward accordingly, there would be almost no bickering, because we would all have the Spirit to help us along. But since this is a church full of people feeling their way, we have people at many different stations in life--spiritually, emotionally, and physically. So there is room for disagreements and contention...

We should pray about EVERY thing we hear at church, about EVERY calling we receive, about EVERY scripture we read to determine for ourselves, by the Spirit, the will of God for us and the truthfulness of those things. But there is a line between obeying because we have a testimony, obeying blindly, and then disobeying because "how dare someone tell me that I shouldn't have 2 earrings"...

My intent was two fold (although the secondary is probably an obscure afterthought that wasn’t conveyed in the quotes).

#1: We should not obey blindly (this is almost what was proposed by Lucifer). If we are obeying, it should be because we know the thing is right. There may be instances where a leader isn’t “right” per se (hopefully this little statement makes sense; if not I can elaborate), and there is a proper channel that should be utilized when this is the case.

G-d gave all of us free agency, access to Him (and the Spirit), and the power of discernment. These are priceless gifts, and we should never shy away from using them. Blind obedience does not facilitate growth; and growth is a major key of why we are here.

#2: We must learn to differentiate between commandment and counsel; both as members and leaders.

[sixpacktr]

Gotcha...

And I agree with you 100%...

[CrimsonKairos]

Jesus said that if we will do God's will, we will know whether the doctrine is of God or of man (John 7:17). Sometimes the discovery of whether something is inspired or not comes from living the standard, not just thinking about it and praying about it and asking if it really matters. Live the standard with an open mind. See how you feel before and after. Then talk to God about the results and come to a conclusion.

Also, Elder Maxwell once said in a worldwide priesthood training broadcast the following piercing and profound statement:

We cannot be Celestial while clinging to the Telestial.

Self-explanitory and as deep as we wish to go with it in our personal behaviors and appetites and attitudes.

[Moksha]

<div class='quotemain'>I have come to the realization that this is how Satan works...first he gets you to question the small things like modest dress, wearing two earrings, being clean shaven, attending Sunday school etc...

I don't understand this practice of interfering in personal fashion preferences, therefore creating even more unnecessary "rules" that can be broken, and making the members feel guilty if they don't oblige. I just don't get this. I'm talking about benign issues like shaving a mustache off, not the obvious such as dressing immodestly.

It just seems like its creating problems where there isn't one. Shaving your mustache is not going to cause you to apostasize.

I see the problem as being one of tying the personal preference for no mustaches into some type of holiness dictum. Brother Dorsey was right in that regard. The second problem was for him to have to justify someone else's personal preference, with a sequential thought that it was somehow designed to keep him from rebelling against the Church. In reality, God loves him with or without facial hair.

Does it indeed make us better people to not question the unreasonable? The Nuremberg Trials, have taught us that we must ultimately take responsibility for our own thoughts and that we should eschew blind obedience. As Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott of the USS Enterprise once said, "Use your head man".

[Elphaba]

While it might often be easy to say you'd know what you'd do under the circumstances, when the time actually comes around, perhaps that's not really so.

I loved this bit of prose by Kathryn Lynard Soper over a Times and Seasons. It's called "Fleshy Tablets," and discusses her struggle with the very issue this thread discusses, her tatoo.

Fleshy Tablets.

Elphaba

[CrimsonKairos]

The Nuremberg Trials, have taught us that we must ultimately take responsibility for our own thoughts and that we should eschew blind obedience.

Yes, I can see the connection between the wholesale genocide perpetrated by the Nazis and the request to keep decorative jewelry simple.

[Guest Yediyd]

Yes, I can see the connection between the wholesale genocide perpetrated by the Nazis and the request to keep decorative jewelry simple.

[Palerider]

There was one time when Joseph Smith tore into Brigham Young...I mean ripped right into him. Now Brigham could have been like most of us...left the meeting and started gripping and whining about Joseph as a leader and etc....instead....Brigham stood up and asked....."what do you want me to do". Joseph looked at him and said....Brigham...you passed...the Lord loves you. I may not have quoted that word for word....but.....I guess when I hear things like guys being asked to shave a beard or mustache...it makes me think of that incident.....

I wish I could figure out what my problem is so I don't get called a 3rd time......I really believe if more people had the chance to sit behind the desk it would make a difference...then again...what do I know....

[Moksha]

<div class='quotemain'>

The Nuremberg Trials, have taught us that we must ultimately take responsibility for our own thoughts and that we should eschew blind obedience.

Yes, I can see the connection between the wholesale genocide perpetrated by the Nazis and the request to keep decorative jewelry simple.

Actually, I think the issue is one of following other's personal preferences in the name of a higher purpose. The thread originally brought into question whether Church leaders are infallible. These simple examples of preferring less jewelry or white shirts and laying the foundation for members to feel guilty if they do not comply with their Church leaders personal preferences is a case in point. Should we obey for obedience sake? Sometimes an acquiescence to authority does not hurt. Sometimes it may run contrary to the promptings of the Spirit.

Thank goodness that none of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve have ever expressed a preference for Ipana toothpaste. There would be a flood of requests tomorrow for this product which ceased production fifty years ago. Member would want the most reverential teeth possible.

[Elphaba]

Thank goodness that none of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve have ever expressed a preference for Ipana toothpaste. There would be a flood of requests tomorrow for this product which ceased production fifty years ago. Member would want the most reverential teeth possible.

LOL

Like these!

Elphie

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

It was an unhealthy or abnormal point of view. Maybe my choice of words is a bit strong, maybe not, but people should grow up and stop playing the victim.

Aphrodite wasn't doing that. She was asking questions, which is not pathological, but is a very health thing for human beings to do.

I do not believe that my life is dictated to me by dodgy Church leaders. In fact I don't have anything dictated to me by anyone in the Church. I choose. Period - plain and simple.

And if you were to go back and actually read Aphrodite's OP, you would see she believes the same thing, at least that is how I read it. However, she is not as far along the path as you are. She has questions. Asking those questions does not make her a victim. It makes a courageous person. Overreacting to her questions is the more outrageous behavior.

Pay attention. You said that 99% of the people in the Church are like the OP and that is simply untrue. The majority of the Church does not play the victim and whine about dodgy dictators in the Church.

No I did not say that.

You aren't going to get far complaining about my language skills.

Then stop using emotionally charged words inappropriately.

Pathological need not be a "serious psychiatric disorders." It can simply refer to a minor mental defect or to anything that is abnormal, a deviation from a normal healthy condition. Had you bothered to look up a word that you don't understand you might have come across as credible.

Obviously I looked up the word as I had posted a definition to it above. Again you demonstrate you do not take the time to actually read the post.

pathology

n 1: the branch of medical science that studies the causes and

nature and effects of diseases

2: any deviation from a healthy or normal condition

http://dict.die.net/pathology/

Neither your definition nor mine applies to Aphrodite based on her post, as she is not acting abnormally.

Elphaba

I think I still disagree with you and disagree with Aphrodite. I very much find victim mentality undesirable. but I acknowledge that you both have some points worth considering.

I apologize for coming across too harshly.

[CrimsonKairos]

Actually, I think the issue is one of following other's personal preferences in the name of a higher purpose.

If you call genocide a "personal preference" then...yeah...sure.

Should we obey for obedience sake? [...] Sometimes it may run contrary to the promptings of the Spirit.

By all means, if the Spirit has warned you against only wearing one pair of earrings...then wear two or three pairs. I myself have never been prompted to reject the idea of women only wearing one pair.

Thank goodness that none of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve have ever expressed a preference for Ipana toothpaste.

These comparisons are ridiculous. The reason behind the counsel (not command) to wear only one pair of earrings is to help set our women apart from the world, to keep our beauty simple and uncluttered, to not punch more holes in our temples than we need to, etc...

You may choose to have two or three pairs of earrings, that's cool. Just don't demean the prophet's counsel by reducing it to something as stupid as "I like this toothpaste you shoud too."

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

It was an unhealthy or abnormal point of view. Maybe my choice of words is a bit strong, maybe not, but people should grow up and stop playing the victim.

Aphrodite wasn't doing that. She was asking questions, which is not pathological, but is a very health thing for human beings to do.

I do not believe that my life is dictated to me by dodgy Church leaders. In fact I don't have anything dictated to me by anyone in the Church. I choose. Period - plain and simple.

And if you were to go back and actually read Aphrodite's OP, you would see she believes the same thing, at least that is how I read it. However, she is not as far along the path as you are. She has questions. Asking those questions does not make her a victim. It makes a courageous person. Overreacting to her questions is the more outrageous behavior.

Pay attention. You said that 99% of the people in the Church are like the OP and that is simply untrue. The majority of the Church does not play the victim and whine about dodgy dictators in the Church.

No I did not say that.

You aren't going to get far complaining about my language skills.

Then stop using emotionally charged words inappropriately.

Pathological need not be a "serious psychiatric disorders." It can simply refer to a minor mental defect or to anything that is abnormal, a deviation from a normal healthy condition. Had you bothered to look up a word that you don't understand you might have come across as credible.

Obviously I looked up the word as I had posted a definition to it above. Again you demonstrate you do not take the time to actually read the post.

pathology

n 1: the branch of medical science that studies the causes and

nature and effects of diseases

2: any deviation from a healthy or normal condition

http://dict.die.net/pathology/

Neither your definition nor mine applies to Aphrodite based on her post, as she is not acting abnormally.

Elphaba

I think I still disagree with you and disagree with Aphrodite. I very much find victim mentality but I acknowledge that you both have some points worth considering.

I apologize for coming across too harshly.

What a gracious apology. Thank you.

Elphaba

[Aphrodite]

I wish I could figure out what my problem is so I don't get called a 3rd time......I really believe if more people had the chance to sit behind the desk it would make a difference...then again...what do I know....

You mean more MEN would get a chance. You forget this church is ran by men-We women would not get a chance to be at the other side of the table

We should pray about EVERY thing we hear at church, about EVERY calling we receive, about EVERY scripture we read to determine for ourselves, by the Spirit, the will of God for us and the truthfulness of those things. But there is a line between obeying because we have a testimony, obeying blindly, and then disobeying because "how dare someone tell me that I shouldn't have 2 earrings"...

lol Id never be off my knees if I did that. I dont think its necesary tpo do that for talks etc...rush home and ask, is this right? Most of it is obvious. Its just some specific issues that then come up that I think hang on a minute...

By all means, if the Spirit has warned you against only wearing one pair of earrings...then wear two or three pairs.

Case 1: Ive worn only one pair of earrings for years. I did have another as a teenager but only for a very short time. I havent recieved any blessings as a result, nor have I felt the spirit confirm to me you're doing the right thing. And when I had more earrings I didnt apostacize. Therefore, I ascertain that the Lord is not bothered about me personally wearing as many earrings as I like.

Case 2: When I was in YSA and dating my husband my Bishop decided that the YSA were all getting too fruity for his liking. So, he called in all the parents of the YSA for a meeting-not us, just our parents, bearing in mind we're all over 18 and we're all adults. We were not told about this, or included. The Bishop then went through figures and statistics of all the sexual misdemeanors the YSA had done in the last year. i.e 1 had full sex, 2 involved in heavy petting etc. I think his aim was to try and 'help' us. Bearing in in mind there was about 12 YSA and a few were couples, so basically it was not difficult to work out who had done what. After that meeting, a few ppl came up to us and were like, so, what did you that was on the list? And stuff like that, you get the idea. Everyone who was at that meeting now had a pretty good idea what the YSA were 'upto' due to confidential and private conversations with the bishop. I didnt need to 'pray' about that to know what he did was totally and utterly unnaceptable and wrong. He treated us all as children being naughty, not adults, he betrayed confidences and personal information. HE MADE A BIG MISTAKE that really affected Rob and I as we had people whispering about and speculating as to who had done what. Very unhealthy and innapropriate.

Case 3: As I have issues with the temple I havent been wearing my garments. I was at work one day when I fell ill with severe heart problems. I was rushed down to A&E, obviously in my uniform. Straight away, they told me to take it off so they could do ecgs and whatever. I silently thanked my 'rebellion' or whatever you wanna call it that I wasnt wearing them as she could straight away hook me up and sort me out. Now, if I had been wearing them, I would have had to show them to the nurse as she was there. It was hardly the time or the place for me to say 'can you wait outside a minute' as she would have said, oh dont worry ive seen it all before, just take it off. She would then have had to see the garments, watch me take off my bra, then the garments, then put my bra back on so she could do an ecg. All the while Im Short of breath and dizzy, nauseaous, heart going like the clappers, Id have had to faff around sorting my garments out. As a result she would have seen more of my body (gasp!) and it would have delayed my treatment, and probably made me look like a fool. Now, if it was a reversable situation, and something had happened that was good while I had my garments on, we would have all said, oh look how the garments are 'protecting' us. So, does this mean that the Lord is 'confirming' my decision not to wear them through this incident??

When people say to pray about whether its right or not, Im assuming people think you'll get the expected answer. Well, what if you dont? Does that mean its wrong? Then you have to deal witha contradiction-my leader says its right, ive had answers it isnt. What do you do then??

Its one thing to say, trust the leaders as their decisions are revealed to them, then to say, pray about it to see if its right-as someone said, pray about EVERy little thing. And what if your answer is that what someone told you is wrong?? Has tis happened to anyone else, and what did they do? This is why I have these issues...

[CrimsonKairos]

Case 1: Ive worn only one pair of earrings for years...I havent recieved any blessings as a result, nor have I felt the spirit confirm to me you're doing the right thing...Therefore, I ascertain that the Lord is not bothered about me personally wearing as many earrings as I like.

Then don't worry about it.

Case 2: When I was in YSA and dating my husband my Bishop...called in all the parents of the YSA for a meeting-not us, just our parents...The Bishop then went through figures and statistics of all the sexual misdemeanors the YSA had done in the last year...I didnt need to 'pray' about that to know what he did was totally and utterly unnaceptable and wrong.

That's a completely different issue than whether or not the prophet's counsel about earrings is silly or valid. I agree that bishop made a ridiculous blunder and I don't blame you for having negative feelings about it!

Case 3: As I have issues with the temple I havent been wearing my garments.

All I can say is that garments are part and parcel of covenants you and I made in the temple. I'd give serious consideration to breaking that covenant over issues like earrings and the occasional foolish bishop's actions.

[susieSA]

Oh please

[Aphrodite]

That's a completely different issue than whether or not the prophet's counsel about earrings is silly or valid. I agree that bishop made a ridiculous blunder and I don't blame you for having negative feelings about it!

Believe me thats just one of a few, CK! I know its a ridiculous blunder as you put it but when they affect your life in the church it starts to grate a bit, you know what Im saying?

All I can say is that garments are part and parcel of covenants you and I made in the temple. I'd give serious consideration to breaking that covenant over issues like earrings and the occasional foolish bishop's actions.

Believe me I have. Its all Ive thought about the last two years. I dont remember making covenants to wear garments. At any rate, even if I did, I hardly had a choice, the temple gives you about two seconds to make a choice while you're in there, and I was too scared to think clearly so if I agreed it was because I didnt feel I had a choice. So in my opinion the covenants I made weren't valid.

Even so, garments fall to me in the same category. I dont think the Lord cares one iota what underwear Im wearing. For a church to make your underwear an issue seems slightly perverse.

Oh please

Are you saying that to CK, or me, Susie??

[sixpacktr]

We should pray about EVERY thing we hear at church, about EVERY calling we receive, about EVERY scripture we read to determine for ourselves, by the Spirit, the will of God for us and the truthfulness of those things. But there is a line between obeying because we have a testimony, obeying blindly, and then disobeying because "how dare someone tell me that I shouldn't have 2 earrings"...

lol Id never be off my knees if I did that. I dont think its necesary tpo do that for talks etc...rush home and ask, is this right? Most of it is obvious. Its just some specific issues that then come up that I think hang on a minute...

Why is that a problem? I'm not advocating 24/7 on your knees. But you should gain a testimony of what is being taught to you. First, you accuse the leadership of demanding blind obedience. I give you the key to gain your own testimony, and it is too much. Are you just never satisfied??

Case 2: When I was in YSA and dating my husband my Bishop decided that the YSA were all getting too fruity for his liking. So, he called in all the parents of the YSA for a meeting-not us, just our parents, bearing in mind we're all over 18 and we're all adults. We were not told about this, or included. The Bishop then went through figures and statistics of all the sexual misdemeanors the YSA had done in the last year. i.e 1 had full sex, 2 involved in heavy petting etc. I think his aim was to try and 'help' us. Bearing in in mind there was about 12 YSA and a few were couples, so basically it was not difficult to work out who had done what. After that meeting, a few ppl came up to us and were like, so, what did you that was on the list? And stuff like that, you get the idea. Everyone who was at that meeting now had a pretty good idea what the YSA were 'upto' due to confidential and private conversations with the bishop. I didnt need to 'pray' about that to know what he did was totally and utterly unnaceptable and wrong. He treated us all as children being naughty, not adults, he betrayed confidences and personal information. HE MADE A BIG MISTAKE that really affected Rob and I as we had people whispering about and speculating as to who had done what. Very unhealthy and innapropriate.

Having been in that Bishop's shoes (as a counselor in a Bishopric where we had the awful situation of our Priests impregnating everything in sight), I can't say I fault him that much. We had a similar meeting with the parents during a 3rd hour discussion (no youth) to discuss the problem and give them a heads up, since most parents are notoriously blind when it comes to the disgressions of their own kids. No names, no statistics, but we did state that as the ward leadership we were there to SUPPORT the parents in any way we could. We could not, and dare not, usurp the parent's role as leaders of the family. I think the Bishop was right to call attention to this situation so that they could work with their kids, YSA or not...

Case 3: As I have issues with the temple I havent been wearing my garments. I was at work one day when I fell ill with severe heart problems. I was rushed down to A&E, obviously in my uniform. Straight away, they told me to take it off so they could do ecgs and whatever. I silently thanked my 'rebellion' or whatever you wanna call it that I wasnt wearing them as she could straight away hook me up and sort me out. Now, if I had been wearing them, I would have had to show them to the nurse as she was there. It was hardly the time or the place for me to say 'can you wait outside a minute' as she would have said, oh dont worry ive seen it all before, just take it off. She would then have had to see the garments, watch me take off my bra, then the garments, then put my bra back on so she could do an ecg. All the while Im Short of breath and dizzy, nauseaous, heart going like the clappers, Id have had to faff around sorting my garments out. As a result she would have seen more of my body (gasp!) and it would have delayed my treatment, and probably made me look like a fool. Now, if it was a reversable situation, and something had happened that was good while I had my garments on, we would have all said, oh look how the garments are 'protecting' us. So, does this mean that the Lord is 'confirming' my decision not to wear them through this incident??

You obviously don't understand the temple ceremony or the importance of garments. I have been to the hospital with them on, and nothing weird happened, no questions, nothing.

You obviously are full of anger and feel that somehow the church has slighted you. Have you had a chance to read this month's Ensign talk by President Monson, Hidden Wedges? If you don't receive the Ensign, you can find it online at LDS.org. It is an excellent talk about how grudges canker our soul...

[Gabelma]

While it might often be easy to say you'd know what you'd do under the circumstances, when the time actually comes around, perhaps that's not really so.

I loved this bit of prose by Kathryn Lynard Soper over a Times and Seasons. It's called "Fleshy Tablets," and discusses her struggle with the very issue this thread discusses, her tatoo.

Fleshy Tablets.

Elphaba

Thanks you for posting this Elphie it was beautiful piece.

Charley

Case 3: As I have issues with the temple I havent been wearing my garments. I was at work one day when I fell ill with severe heart problems. I was rushed down to A&E, obviously in my uniform. Straight away, they told me to take it off so they could do ecgs and whatever. I silently thanked my 'rebellion' or whatever you wanna call it that I wasnt wearing them as she could straight away hook me up and sort me out. Now, if I had been wearing them, I would have had to show them to the nurse as she was there. It was hardly the time or the place for me to say 'can you wait outside a minute' as she would have said, oh dont worry ive seen it all before, just take it off. She would then have had to see the garments, watch me take o ff my bra, then the garments, then put my bra back on so she could do an ecg. All the while Im Short of breath and dizzy, nauseaous, heart going like the clappers, Id have had to faff around sorting my garments out. As a result she would have seen more of my body (gasp!) and it would have delayed my treatment, and probably made me look like a fool. Now, if it was a reversable situation, and something had happened that was good while I had my garments on, we would have all said, oh look how the garments are 'protecting' us. So, does this mean that the Lord is 'confirming' my decision not to wear them through this incident??

You obviously don't understand the temple ceremony or the importance of garments. I have been to the hospital with them on, and nothing weird happened, no questions, nothing.

You obviously are full of anger and feel that somehow the church has slighted you. Have you had a chance to read this month's Ensign talk by President Monson, Hidden Wedges? If you don't receive the Ensign, you can find it online at LDS.org. It is an excellent talk about how grudges canker our soul...

If the situation was that bad speaking from experience they would have just cut the garments off - as I was conscious I asked them could they put them in a bag for me to dispose of them myself. Other times just worked round my garments - most healthcare professionals I have encountered have been just that professional. You work in healthcare would it really have bothered you that much to have seen more of a patients body or to work round religious garments if it was an emergency? Worse that happens is they chat about it in the staff room later lol

-Charley

[Gwen]

we can sometimes get revelation contrary to our leaders. i find the biggest factor in that is weither or not we are humbling ourselves to revelation or not. the lord may tell us that something is wrong but to do it anyway. it's easy to take what we know is wrong and turn it into a run away train into other things. we must remember to be humble, not adversarial when seeking such answers. if we are to sure we are right then we won't hear the answer anyway.

i recently went through something like this. not sharing out of pride that i think i "got it right" but how much of a test it was on my testamony, how hard it was. there was a member of our stake leadership (in a position directly over my husband) that is assisting a family member in their promise to destroy my family. he used the chruch and some legal loopholes to do this. i knew that was wrong, i knew he shouldn't be in that calling. i felt like the stake leadership wasn't doing what they should to stop this man. i was very angery and hurt. that got caught up in all my emotions, all this happening 3 or so weeks prior to branch conference i was faced with the sustaining part, and thought a lot about it. at first i had decided that i could not sustain this brother. as i learned of events that had transpired i decided at the last min that i could not sustain anyone in the stake presidency either. i had good logic, rational, and feelings that supported me. saturday night i thought maybe not sustaining the stake pres wasn't right and maybe just keep it to the one that was out of line. then i questioned my motives of not sustaining anyone. come sunday morning i really didn't know what i would do. our sacrament meeting is last so i got 2 hours to worry about it. i honestly didn't make a decision till we were in the sustaining process. i listened more carefully to the sustaining than i ever have. as the previous meetings went on my anger (not the hurt) toward the stake presidency did subside. i ended up not sustaing the one brother, but i did sustain the stake pres. i of course got called in to talk after the meetings. i was so worried about that meeting. i learned that though i still think the stake pres was wrong in what he did, there was no ill will toward our family intended; i'm glad i sustained him and his counselors. these were facts i didn't know going in. i explained very passionatly who and why i opposed. then something i never expected happened. he looked at me and said sis....for the first time in discussing an opposition to a calling i can say i think your reasons are righteous, i agree with you; and you have my word as soon as something can be done this will be taken care of appropriately. sustaining him was the right thing to do; even if he hadn't agreed with me, and i still think he made a poor choice. but his heart was in the right place and there is nothing the father can't fix.

my point, trust inspiration only when you are opening yourself up to it. listening, humbling, trying to hear and follow the savior. and trust the father to be able to fix the dumb mistakes you and others make. there are appropriate ways to oppose your leadership and then there are the wrong ways. do the right things, for the right reasons, in the right way; miss one of the three and you will find yourself off course.