My Problem With Church Leadership

[john doe]

Wow, that's a first. I've never seen someone try to use modesty as an excuse to NOT wear the Garment of the Lord. Do they not wear underwear at all where you come from?

Most places, especially in larger metropolitan areas, I would think doctors and nurses have probably seen it all, and wouldn't give a second thought to someone wearing the garment.

[shanstress70]

Wow, I have kept quiet so far but I have to say that I'm totally surprised by some of your responses to Aphrodite. Is your goal to keep her as a member of your church, or p#$% her off even more and further push her away?

How about some kind words for this troubled person?

I've been in her shoes and as annoying as her remarks obviously are to some of you, she is in a lot of pain if her faith is being shaken underneath her.

Would Christ talk to her this way, or approve of you doing so?

Hang in there, Aphrodite, and pray for guidance. It'll all work out and you'll get through this tough time - whatever decision you make.

[Aphrodite]

Why is that a problem? I'm not advocating 24/7 on your knees. But you should gain a testimony of what is being taught to you. First, you accuse the leadership of demanding blind obedience. I give you the key to gain your own testimony, and it is too much. Are you just never satisfied??

Maybe Ill give it a shot next time :)

We had a similar meeting with the parents during a 3rd hour discussion (no youth) to discuss the problem and give them a heads up, since most parents are notoriously blind when it comes to the disgressions of their own kids

But how is that your problem? Fine, you might be concerned because you're good people but really, what right do you have to let 'blind' parents know? When I was at school a couple of girls got pregnant-the school would never have dreamed of calling a meeting with their parents to say look what your kids doing. Instead, they approached the girls directly to offer confidential support and help if they needed it.

I think the Bishop was right to call attention to this situation so that they could work with their kids, YSA or not..

As you have just mentioned and as my bishop did, the people with problems were totally bypassed and it was the parents who were approached. To me, that does more damage as the 'kids' or 'young single ADULTS' are treated as such, as the message being given is, we dont trust you, but we trust your parents. If you are unmarried in the church you are treated like a child with no self control. That was the way I was treated. My Dad agreed with this meeting-we had arguments on it. I said to him, Dad, if you were single and had a few problems, do you seriously think they would call a meeting with your elderly mother to say, your 50 year old son is being a bad boy? Of course not he said. Right. Of course not. Why not? Its the same situation, so why wouldnt they? Because YSA are seen as immature kids. They are adults too and should be treated as such. That was my issue with the whole situation.

You obviously don't understand the temple ceremony or the importance of garments.

So explain it to me. What people usually say is 'its too sacred to talk about'. convenient, and unhelpful to me, or, garments are a reminder of the covenants ive made and a protection. well, a) i dont remember half the specific covenants as I mentioned earlier anyway, but believe me that temple ceremony is permanently engraved in my head. I dont need reminding. I'll never forget it thats for sure!! b)at one point I did wear my garments. The only thing it 'protected' me from was bending down (they showed) half the clothes shops in town, feeling good about my body, (it looks crap in them) underwear shopping with my sister (something we've done for years), enjoying hot weather, feeling uncomfortable on a daily basis not to mention red rashes from sweating profusely, infections and less support. Yup, they certainly protected me from all those things. I felt utterly miserable having to wear them. Now I dont, I feel free. If they have any other purposes other than protection and reminders please let me know.

You obviously are full of anger and feel that somehow the church has slighted you

You're right. I feel the church doesn't teach us enough about our history, it glosses over the negative parts to make it look perfect-I feel we should be told everything to be allowed to make our own decisions and pray about it as you suggested. The only reason to hide information is if the church is somehow ashamed of it, or it is indeed, wrong. So yes I feel slighted in that as Ive only found out a lot of things about the church just recently. It feels like Ive been living a false church all these years as I havent known half the stuff that happened when it was restored and in subsequent years. I feel cheated.

Plus, since I went to the temple my testimony has dramatically disappeared. I thought it was supposed to be the pinnacle of spirituality and what i had been waiting my whole life for. I was told it was wonderful and 'I would love it' Instead, it was a huge disappointment and has had such an effect on me. I didnt love it, I hated it. I feel...empty I suppose. I thought the temple would make me feel spiritually complete. But it didnt, and i feel like there's still something missing and I've been somehow cheated out of that. So you're right, I feel angry about that. I feel angry I wasnt given enough information to adequately prepare. And now Im suffering for it. I honestly felt traumatised by the temple. I remember sitting there in the sessioon with my head spinning, fighting back tears thinking, this isnt my church, there's been a terrible mistake somewhere. And that feeling has never left me.

The temple is the main cause of all my problems. Thats the reason I joined this site in the first place, to try and find answers and peace. If I hadnt gone to the temple, half my issues wouldnt exist. The temple has ruined my testimony and for that, I feel angry. I wish I could get over it but I cant. Ive prayed to feel peace but I dont.

[CrimsonKairos]

Dang Aphrodite, that's seriously horrible to hear. I loved the temple experience, and loved it more as I went more and understood it more. But perhaps preparation had to do with that. Let me explain.

There is a tendency to build up the temple experience as--like you said--the pinnacle of spirituality on earth. We start imagining all kinds of cool things we'll see and feel when we get there. Then, the initiatory and endowment are not at all what we expected, or were not properly prepared for what they entail, and there is some shell-shock which can numb us through the rest of the experience, preventing us from soaking up the spiritual treasures which are there for our enjoyment.

I guess I'd compare the experiences of some I've known (like yours) to flying on an airplane for the first time. Your friends and parents tell you it's so cool, how awesome it is to watch through the window by your seat as the plane takes off and the ground recedes below you, how once you're high in the sky you can see things below that you could never see on the ground, how thrilling it is to float through clouds, and so on. So you get all excited.

Your first plane trip comes. You go through airport security...and have to take off shoes, belts, rings, coats...stuff they never mentioned. Plus they wand you, making you feel like a criminal or something. It's a hassle and starts to annoy you. But whatever, you ignore it and press on.

Then you take your seat by a window and buckle-up. The engines start. Your seat begins to shake as the jet engines warm up. You begin to feel uneasy as the plane taxis to the runway. Then, with a suddenness that pushes your stomach against your spine, the plane lurches forward and gains speed. You're clutching your armrests by now, perhaps squeezing your eyes shut as your breathing quickens and your pulse races.

Paralyzed by new sensations that no one warned you about, you keep your eyes shut tight until the plane reaches its cruising altitude and stops shaking so much. Then, you open your eyes only to realize you missed watching the takeoff through the window by your seat. In fact you can't remember experiencing much of what your parents and friends told you was going to be so cool. All you remember is panic, nausea and distress.

My first temple experience with receiving my own initiatory and endowment was not some piercing the veil experience. Mostly I was concerned with going where I was supposed to, saying what I was supposed to when I was supposed to, putting articles of clothing on when I was supposed to, etc... Luckily, my parents went through with me and once we got to the Celestial Room (like the plane reaching cruising altitude) I was able to sit back, pause, and talk to them about what I had just experienced.

Did you have friends or family go through with you for the first time? Or was it just your fiance? How does he feel about the temple covenants and endowment?

I won't pretend I don't feel sorry for you...I really do enjoy the endowment when I'm in the right state of mind (feeling worthy, calm, focused), and it's unfortunate that something that can be so enjoyable and satisfying has soured your testimony and left a bitter taste in your mouth. Did you feel properly prepared? In other words, did you take a temple prep Sunday school class, or did your Stake Pres. have a Q&A session where he started to go into more detail about what to expect?

If not, then someone else dropped the ball. What far too many people forget is that temple preparation isn't just about getting a recommend, garments, temple clothing and showing up on time. The amount of preparation--spiritual and doctrinal--that we go through before entering the temple ought to be equal to the amount of importance the Lord places on temple worship. In other words, a lot. Of course there are certain things that we covenant not to reveal outside of the temple, but by and large I had a fairly clear picture of what I'd be doing, when, and in what order.

Going back to the plane analogy, I was warned that my seat would begin shaking at takeoff, that my stomach would likely be plastered against the back of my ribcage due to the sudden acceleration of takeoff, etc... So I was blessed in that I "kept my eyes open during takeoff" and was free to marvel at all the cool things I'd been told I'd see and experience.

This may not be what you're ready to hear, but I'd actually recommend a few things to you Aphrodite:

1.) Begin wearing your temple garments again, in order to be able to enter the temple worthily. You did indeed covenant to wear them day and night (with obvious exceptions).

2.) Buy or borrow a copy of a temple prep manual. Go through it with your husband. Talk to your bishop and/or stake president about your experience and ask them if they can explain things in the ceremony more to you.

3.) Finally, go through the temple again with your husband and do an initiatory and endowment for someone who has passed away. Try to combine what you've read in the temple prep manual and scriptures with what you're experiencing. What does this symbolize? Why would we say this here? Does anything in this ceremony appear in the Bible anywhere?

4.) Once you get to the Celestial Room, talk to your husband about anything and everything you want. The CR is the one place on earth where you can talk about anything related to the endowment ceremony and initiatory without limitation. In fact, take time to pray silently to the Lord in the CR. Talk to him. Let him know your questions, concerns, ask for understanding...it can be a cathartic and powerful experience.

I would think that after doing those four steps, you might begin to feel differently than you do now, and that would be a great thing. Your concerns and questions are serious indeed, as they deal with very serious covenants that have very serious consequences, good or bad, depending on whether we keep them or not. Good luck, and before you give up on these troubling things, at least give it everything you've got to try to understand them better and experience them again with a more prepared mindset. I'm sorry you're weighed down under such misery and doubt. That's no fun at all, to put it lightly.

[Moksha]

The only reason to hide information is if the church is somehow ashamed of it, or it is indeed, wrong. So yes I feel slighted in that as Ive only found out a lot of things about the church just recently. It feels like Ive been living a false church all these years as I havent known half the stuff that happened when it was restored and in subsequent years. I feel cheated.

My feeling is that Murphy's Law of things going wrong also affect us Mormons. At various points in the past, somebody decided to give a more inspiring account of what happened. When this occurs enough times, you have created legends that are at odds with actual history. It really doesn't mean things were all that wrong to begin with or that we needed to be ashamed of the absolute truth.

Once fibs are made, someone has to emerge to correct them. Hopefully, in this will come to pass. I have always thought that it was wrong for members to need to turn to the Tanner's website for accurate information. The Tanner's also have an ax to grind as well.

[Brother Dorsey]

The only reason to hide information is if the church is somehow ashamed of it, or it is indeed, wrong. So yes I feel slighted in that as Ive only found out a lot of things about the church just recently. It feels like Ive been living a false church all these years as I havent known half the stuff that happened when it was restored and in subsequent years. I feel cheated.

Wow....satan has really played his hand well in regards to confusing the Saints in the Kingdom of God. The anti-Mormon websites and literature with their twisted truths and outright lies are taking hold of those with fragile testimonies and leading the children of God into bondage.

The more I read this thread the more I come to feel that there are those whom look at the church as more of some kind of a social club than the Church of Jesus Christ. In a social club if things just don't go the way you expect them to and the leaders just don't seem to run the club the way you feel it should be done...you complain and try to convince yourself that they are wrong and you are right...but you don't want to leave the club, you just want changes made to fit your agenda. And you will try hard to find others in the"club" to convince that you are right!

The Lord promised us each individually and collectively line upon line and precept upon precept. New truths would be added upon and given to us to ponder and pray about and to understand. These truths would be very hard to understand if they were given to us out of the order that the Lord wants to give them to us. For instance you don't go from baptismal font to the Temple right away. You have to learn new truths, pray about them, understand them and accept them. A new convert is rarely called to a leadership position because they don't posess the experience or truths the Lord requires. But, as stated before, there are those whom look at the church as a social club and quickly as they can they accept truths without getting confirmation by the Spirit....they do what they can to be a part of the club, to be accepted and they lose the spiritual aspect of the church...then it's no wonder they are confused by deeper doctrine, the Temple ceremonies and covenants etc..

In their confusion they tend to look for other people and things that will have empathy for them, so first they turn to other members of the church looking for sympathy which they receive....but they also want someone (in the club) to agree with them...to validate their agenda. When this doesn't happen they turn to non-LDS places like anti-Mormon websites thinking they will find truth and sympathy there....they will find a place that will validate their feelings but they will find no truth.

[Elphaba]

. . . The anti-Mormon websites and literature with their twisted truths and outright lies are taking hold of those with fragile testimonies and leading the children of God into bondage.

. . . When this doesn't happen they turn to non-LDS places like anti-Mormon websites thinking they will find truth and sympathy there....they will find a place that will validate their feelings but they will find no truth.

Why do you automatically assume she's been to a so-called "anti-Mormon" website. She hasn't said anything to indicate that this is the case.

Elphaba

[Snow]

Case 2: When I was in YSA and dating my husband my Bishop decided that the YSA were all getting too fruity for his liking. So, he called in all the parents of the YSA for a meeting-not us, just our parents, bearing in mind we're all over 18 and we're all adults. We were not told about this, or included. The Bishop then went through figures and statistics of all the sexual misdemeanors the YSA had done in the last year. i.e 1 had full sex, 2 involved in heavy petting etc. I think his aim was to try and 'help' us. Bearing in in mind there was about 12 YSA and a few were couples, so basically it was not difficult to work out who had done what. After that meeting, a few ppl came up to us and were like, so, what did you that was on the list? And stuff like that, you get the idea. Everyone who was at that meeting now had a pretty good idea what the YSA were 'upto' due to confidential and private conversations with the bishop. I didnt need to 'pray' about that to know what he did was totally and utterly unnaceptable and wrong. He treated us all as children being naughty, not adults, he betrayed confidences and personal information. HE MADE A BIG MISTAKE that really affected Rob and I as we had people whispering about and speculating as to who had done what. Very unhealthy and innapropriate.

Okay - You were an adult. Here's how an adult would handle it. Ask the Bishop to speak with you. Tell him your concerns. Instruct him that if he has isssues with you, that you, the adult, are to be contacted, not your parents. Further, tell him that based on what you heard was said to the parents, you have ascertained who he was referring to and are now concerned about confidentiality or concerned that others are attributing his comments to have meant you and Rob and you now wanted him to correct the mistaken impression that he gave.

Being an adult, can we assume that you did that?

Case 3: As I have issues with the temple I havent been wearing my garments. I was at work one day when I fell ill with severe heart problems. I was rushed down to A&E, obviously in my uniform. Straight away, they told me to take it off so they could do ecgs and whatever. I silently thanked my 'rebellion' or whatever you wanna call it that I wasnt wearing them as she could straight away hook me up and sort me out. Now, if I had been wearing them, I would have had to show them to the nurse as she was there. It was hardly the time or the place for me to say 'can you wait outside a minute' as she would have said, oh dont worry ive seen it all before, just take it off. She would then have had to see the garments, watch me take off my bra, then the garments, then put my bra back on so she could do an ecg. All the while Im Short of breath and dizzy, nauseaous, heart going like the clappers, Id have had to faff around sorting my garments out. As a result she would have seen more of my body (gasp!) and it would have delayed my treatment, and probably made me look like a fool. Now, if it was a reversable situation, and something had happened that was good while I had my garments on, we would have all said, oh look how the garments are 'protecting' us. So, does this mean that the Lord is 'confirming' my decision not to wear them through this incident??

No - it just means that you weren't wearing your garments - and big deal if you had been. You were having an urgent medical incident. I wouldn't have given it a second thought. But then I don't live and breath by what other people think of me.

[Brother Dorsey]

I wish I could figure out what my problem is so I don't get called a 3rd time......I really believe if more people had the chance to sit behind the desk it would make a difference...then again...what do I know....

You mean more MEN would get a chance. You forget this church is ran by men-We women would not get a chance to be at the other side of the table

With that statement Aphrodite it is obvious that you really don't understand the Priesthood of the Lord.

It was the power of the Priesthood that created the Heavens and the Earth, that breathed life into Adam and Eve, that created you and I. It is Heavenly Fathers almighty power and those who are worthy to hold it do for others and not themselves to conduct meetings, give blessings, healings, serve as a leader and give council etc... It is by the Priesthood that the church is structured and run. And the Lords church is run via Patriarchical order....this is an eternal truth.

Why do you automatically assume she's been to a so-called "anti-Mormon" website. She hasn't said anything to indicate that this is the case.

Elphaba

Sorry, I wasn't assuming anything about Aphrodite going to any anti-Mormon websites.

[Adomini22]

Yeah, what he said.

[Elphaba]

Sorry, I wasn't assuming anything about Aphrodite going to any anti-Mormon websites.

I apologize if I misunderstood.

Elphaba

[Snow]

You're right. I feel the church doesn't teach us enough about our history, it glosses over the negative parts to make it look perfect-I feel we should be told everything to be allowed to make our own decisions and pray about it as you suggested. The only reason to hide information is if the church is somehow ashamed of it, or it is indeed, wrong. So yes I feel slighted in that as Ive only found out a lot of things about the church just recently. It feels like Ive been living a false church all these years as I havent known half the stuff that happened when it was restored and in subsequent years. I feel cheated.

I don't know what dark corner of the universe you're hiding in but the Church, Church Authorities, LDS historians, LDS scholars and the like have produced an almost unbelievable wealth of LDS historical information. It's is nearly endless. It far surpasses the scholarly historical output of most any Christian denomination with very few (perhaps only one) exception. It's not just whitewashed, but rather the most complete and scholarly stuff available - controversy and all.

Obviously you are unfamiliar with it yet you whine that it doesn't exist of is hidden. The vast majority of the impressive heft of historical material has come from LDS sources, not the critics. You apparently want someone to spoon feed it to you. Grow up. It doesn't work that way. Those of us who are interested in scholarship seek it out and are richly rewarded for it.

You may be cheated but only by yourself.

[sixpacktr]

Plus, since I went to the temple my testimony has dramatically disappeared. I thought it was supposed to be the pinnacle of spirituality and what i had been waiting my whole life for. I was told it was wonderful and 'I would love it' Instead, it was a huge disappointment and has had such an effect on me. I didnt love it, I hated it. I feel...empty I suppose. I thought the temple would make me feel spiritually complete. But it didnt, and i feel like there's still something missing and I've been somehow cheated out of that. So you're right, I feel angry about that. I feel angry I wasnt given enough information to adequately prepare. And now Im suffering for it. I honestly felt traumatised by the temple. I remember sitting there in the sessioon with my head spinning, fighting back tears thinking, this isnt my church, there's been a terrible mistake somewhere. And that feeling has never left me.

The temple is the main cause of all my problems. Thats the reason I joined this site in the first place, to try and find answers and peace. If I hadnt gone to the temple, half my issues wouldnt exist. The temple has ruined my testimony and for that, I feel angry. I wish I could get over it but I cant. Ive prayed to feel peace but I dont.

Aphrodite,

I have to say this, but it is obvious you didn't understand the ceremony and the beauty that is in there. I know, because the first time I went thru I was totally freaked out! I wondered where my church had gone, why all the ritual and symbolism. But the more I went, the more I learned, I could tie things back to other things, I felt revelation and understanding every time I went. It was something that took some time for me but is now absolutely beautiful and sacred to me.

I know that I have come across as harsh, and for that I apologize. The tone of your notes seemed so bent on proving the church wrong, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for that, to be honest. Too often people don't want to pay the price to keep their testimony, which is just as important as gaining it in the first place, and so I thought that was where you were going. I know now what the source of your problems are. I know that you feel that the church leaders are not really there for you, but you may want to talk to your VTs, your RS President, etc., about this.

I'm not you, so I don't know what will fix this for you. But the temple is the ultimate place to learn. You just have to learn to see it, I think.

Good luck to you in this...

[kiwibabee]

I want to apologize to you aphrodite.

I need to be looking at myself and ask am I following all what the leaders have asked of us?

I have a problem with drinking coke yet it has been asked that we not drink anything that has caffeine in it.

Will I be held accountable for that, I do not know, but the real question is- am I willing to take that chance?

As for your bishop going over your heads and talking to the parents, I would not have been very happy either.

When I was 18 and going to a singles ward the leaders decided that you had to be 21 before you could go. But they quickly put it back because to many of us called to the church office. I think that leaders in a singles ward think that if they butt in that we will stop getting into trouble. I always laughed at that, because you will find trouble if you go looking for it.

I was going to another singles ward and my boyfriend at the time was going to the singles ward that I originally attended. We got into trouble, nothing to serious but enough to have to go talk to our bishops. My bishop was a former mission president- he was great I just put on probation, My boyfriend was dis-fellowshipped and the stake president pulled me in and told me that my bishop had it all wrong with how I was taken care of. That really bugged me. But here I am today I am still active in the church and I try to go to the temple when I can.

As for the Temple, I remember the first time I went through that I felt like it was never going to end. It took me a while to be comfortable with going to the Temple, and now that I am so far away from one I wish I could go more often. My husband and I were sealed in the temple a year after we were married, so garments were a little hard to get used to at first, now they are like a second skin.

I want to know what does your husband think of all this?

[Aphrodite]

Okay - You were an adult. Here's how an adult would handle it. Ask the Bishop to speak with you. Tell him your concerns. Instruct him that if he has isssues with you, that you, the adult, are to be contacted, not your parents. Further, tell him that based on what you heard was said to the parents, you have ascertained who he was referring to and are now concerned about confidentiality or concerned that others are attributing his comments to have meant you and Rob and you now wanted him to correct the mistaken impression that he gave.

Being an adult, can we assume that you did that?

Yes, we did. My husband called him up and said almost word for word what you just said.

I know that I have come across as harsh, and for that I apologize. The tone of your notes seemed so bent on proving the church wrong, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for that, to be honest. Too often people don't want to pay the price to keep their testimony, which is just as important as gaining it in the first place, and so I thought that was where you were going. I know now what the source of your problems are.

Thats ok. My husband has said the same thing to me. 'stop trying to destroy My testimony just because you dont have one of your own'. Brother Dorsey is right really-I need someone to feel the same as me and agree with me because I feel really alone in all this.

You mean more MEN would get a chance. You forget this church is ran by men-We women would not get a chance to be at the other side of the table

With that statement Aphrodite it is obvious that you really don't understand the Priesthood of the Lord.

I do understand, Im not a feminist. It was just palerider said if more people had the oppurtunity to be bishops or whatever. I was pointing out us women cant have the oppurtunity to do that. Whether the priesthood is of God or not, its still held by men, as God himself is a Man. I wasnt being funny, its a fact I was merely pointing out. I dont have a problem with the priesthood, or with women not having the priesthood. But the church is still run by men!!

CK-Thanks for your plane analogy I like it. Except my Dad compared it to a plane ride with someone from the 16th century!

Did you have friends or family go through with you for the first time? Or was it just your fiance?

There were a few people there.My Mum and Dad, the bishop and his wife, my friend and Robs auntie and Uncle. I was glad of Robs auntie otherwise I might have ran out the room. Everyone else was on the other side of the room, so I couldnt be with the two people I needed with me the most-My Dad and my fiancee. I was very angry with my Mum and wished she wasnt there. I have gone over this in my previous temple post. But my relationship with my Mum was very strained at that time and I didnt want her to be there. She is half responsible for my bad experience because of the way she behaved in there. Our relationship is still strained to this day, but not because of the temple, in spite of it.

CK, I had all the prep anyone else has. I had temple prep classes given by a 75year old woman that were not helpful. Shes a sweet lady but totally out of touch with the youth of today and the entire modern world. She just showed us cheesy videos and talked about the plan of salvation-They perhaps raised more questions than answered.

We both sat down with the stake president beforehand. He's such a good man and he was really the only person that made me feel even slightly relaxed about the temple. He did open himself up to questions, but I couldnt think of any. My husband asked a few, even though he had been. I did feel a bit better after that chat tho.

I liked your suggestions for me CK-However, and this is where i AM angry. Because of all my issues, I am not 'worthy' to enter the temple. (I hate that phrase). I dont have a recommend, it ran out. So I cant go anyway. But even if I did what you said about the celestial room-when i went the first time my husband was like, now you can ask questions. I almost laughed. I thought, I have all these people grinning manically at me, whereas I felt if I opened my mouth I would burst into tears. I just clamped my mouth shut and shook my head. My husband was really worried about me. As if I could talk about it right then!! I just wanted to leave straight away. But I had to sit there for appearances sake. The second and final time I went I didnt feel so traumatised, but I still felt unable to speak. I mean, talk about pressure-You can now ask all your questions about life and the universe, starting.....now! Its not a natural environment. All my questions came on the way home, or in the shower, or at church, you get my drift? How could I have thought of everything I wanted to ask, and asked in in that room in a particular time frame? Yeah I had lots of questions, but afterwards. And then when I did ask, all I ever got was 'too sacred' 'cant talk about it' 'go back then you ask'. Uh, except I cant now go back. So my questions have gone, and will remain, unanswered. Moksha, it is murphys law-you struggle with things and have questions-so you're denied the one place we're allowed to have them answered. Hmm. Maybe I wont understand them till I go back. But I wont be worthy until I can have them answered!!! Its a catch 22.

How does he feel about the temple covenants and endowment?

I want to know what does your husband think of all this?

Well, we've gone through a rollercoaster on this. He knows how I feel. We had a really big chat a few weeks ago. I wish we hadnt now as he ended up getting really upset. He said we're sealed in the temple, so if you reject the temple where does that leave me? I tried to tell him that, he's not going anywhere at the moment either, as he doesnt have a recommend. I said, if we both dies tomorrow, neither of us would make it. But for some reason, he thinks that because I voice my problems and he doesnt, I'm the one doing wrong. Even though really we're both the same.

So, we went out for a drive and really talked about how we feel about the church. Turns out he feels the same way I do. He has issues with many of the things I do. I asked him why he doesnt read the scriptures, why he doesnt pray. He says that he's worried that if he starts doing all that, he'll realise the truthfulness of the church, and then his conscience will dictate to him and he'll have to start doing things he now isnt. He says, i cant do everything-Ive tried and just felt guilty, the church expects too much from you. So I took a step back and detatched myself a bit, and dont feel guilty. I was like, but Rob, Im doing the same as you, just turning up to church on a Sunday. We're both no better or worse than each other. He says, yeah but I have to have some hope, and try. So I said, but thats not enough-just because you still believe it, but are not doing it, doesnt mean you'll go further. I said all Im doing is voicing all this whereas you're trying to tell yourself you're doing ok when really we're the same. He says, 'I know, I know' then bangs his head off the steering wheel and says 'its too much'.

However, Rob loves the temple. He loved it from day 1. So I have to be careful what I say about it to him as I dont want to upset him. Basically, Robs issues are that he's not good enough, he cant do it all. Wheras mine are, I dont get it, why should I? Im feisty and strong willed, he's sensitive and reserved. So anyway in the end I said, well, what should we do? He said I dont know. I said maybe we should talk to someone to help us move forward. I dont know who tho. And thats as far as we got.

So what I do now? I cant go in. Its catch 22. Thats why I feel cross about this. I cant move forward. aahhhh this is doing my head in!!!!

[CrimsonKairos]

Aphrodite, I don't understand what's keeping you from the temple. Start wearing your garments today, starting right now. Ask God for mercy and faith, tell Him you want to go back to the temple at least one more time to try and sort these things out with your husband.

Both of you commit to each other to go one last time if nothing else. Get worthy (though I know you hate that phrase). In other words, be able to answer the temple recommend questions, and get your recommend. Tell your Bishop and Stake President what your goal is, i.e. to go to the Celestial Room and have a private chat with your husband about the endowment, the church, your questions, etc...

Starting today, whenever you think of a question you have about the temple ceremonies, write it down on a piece of paper. Write down all the questions you and your husband can think of. Then, when you enter the Celestial Room, take the paper out (Rob can keep it in his pocket), sit down together in a corner of the Celestial Room (I'm assuming you go to the London Temple? Been there for the rededication when I was 10...awesome temple). Then take your time and even though you'll likely be whispering, talk your concerns and questions out. Perhaps ask your dad to go with you to help you and your husband understand everything better.

Don't worry about settling all your concerns at once, and don't worry about being perfect--you or Rob. You don't go to a doctor when you're healthy...you go when you're sick. You don't go to the temple because you're perfect...you go because you're prepared and in need of spiritual strength and further light and knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying lie about transgressions just to get into the temple. I'm saying do your best to be able to answer the recommend questions truthfully and sufficiently.

To tell the truth, I wish I could hop on over to England and go to the temple with you and Rob. I'd have alot to say to you both in the Celestial Room. It's really frustrating to me to hear Rob's and your anger and confusion at where you're at right now and not be able to do anything but type in an online forum.

All I can say is do your best to gather your questions, get back to the temple, and try once more to find the answers you're seeking. For both of you. Good luck, and God bless your efforts.

Remind Rob that our best is not enough--but it is necessary. Christ takes care of the rest.

[shanstress70]

CK, you can be such a sweet guy!

[CrimsonKairos]

At first, like others here I too thought Aphrodite was just trying to tear down the LDS Church and its leaders. Once I realized her genuine concerns and the source of them, I began to "get it" and I can't help feeling badly for her and her husband's predicament.

[sixpacktr]

So, we went out for a drive and really talked about how we feel about the church. Turns out he feels the same way I do. He has issues with many of the things I do. I asked him why he doesnt read the scriptures, why he doesnt pray. He says that he's worried that if he starts doing all that, he'll realise the truthfulness of the church, and then his conscience will dictate to him and he'll have to start doing things he now isnt. He says, i cant do everything-Ive tried and just felt guilty, the church expects too much from you. So I took a step back and detatched myself a bit, and dont feel guilty. I was like, but Rob, Im doing the same as you, just turning up to church on a Sunday. We're both no better or worse than each other. He says, yeah but I have to have some hope, and try. So I said, but thats not enough-just because you still believe it, but are not doing it, doesnt mean you'll go further. I said all Im doing is voicing all this whereas you're trying to tell yourself you're doing ok when really we're the same. He says, 'I know, I know' then bangs his head off the steering wheel and says 'its too much'.

I feel for you guys, I really do. Your husband's response, to me, shows that he knows that it is true, despite his questions. It almost sounds like he, too, needs to gain a testimony of the atonement, to know that he has a chance. Too often people mistake the "works" importance over the "grace" importance. The works are important, no doubt, and we have to do all we can, but the grace is much more so, and that is what gives us the hope talked about by Moroni and Paul (faith, hope, charity). Without that hope, the church would be a living hell, I know, because we do believe that perfection is possible, not some "pie-in-the-sky" ideal proposed by our Savior. But again, Be Ye Therefore Perfect isn't just in works, but Be Ye Therefore Whole, which means we team up with Christ to take away our stain...

Your husband is right: the church does expect a lot. I'm not sure of your ward/branch's size, but of course, the smaller the unit the more callings and expectations. That of course takes up time.

I agree with CK. Work to go back to the temple, take your Bishop/SP, ask those questions your write down, gain an understanding of what is happening and I think your doubts will gradually go away. Your husband's comment keeps coming back to me, and I think that you, too, have that same feeling, even if you have buried it. Otherwise, why would you come here to ask questions or vent?

Meet with the missionaries again. Have them practice their discussions on you, so that you can see why you have/had a testimony in the first place. Perhaps that is where you both need to start to "jump start" your testimonies...

[Aphrodite]

Aphrodite, I don't understand what's keeping you from the temple. Start wearing your garments today, starting right now. Ask God for mercy and faith, tell Him you want to go back to the temple at least one more time to try and sort these things out with your husband.

There's many things keeping from the temple. Its not just the garments, although the weathers hotting up now, so I dont know if I can do that yet But I dont know if I can face the endowment yet. It scares me to think of going through all that again. Plus there's other stuff. We dont pay tithing. I hate the fact that you have to buy your way in. Why does that keep you out of the temple? Its not a question of faith, its common sense. We have a lot of debts to pay off. If we paid tithing we wouldnt be able to do that. Then what, bailiffs, etc? We want to pay off our own debt. If we paid tithing, we'd then have to go running to the Bishop every week with our hands out to get it back again. Why not just keep our own money and pay our own way? The church isnt going to get out of debt for us. Our last Bishop told us that. Plus it would destroy my husbands pride to have to go there every week and ask for our own money back. Whats the point of that?? When we've paid off our debt then we'll consider paying tithing. So thats another reason.

Tell your Bishop and Stake President what your goal is, i.e. to go to the Celestial Room and have a private chat with your husband about the endowment, the church, your questions, etc...

Oh..are you saying I could go in and only go to the celestial room? It might be worth a try if it was just that. Although to go through all of what I would have to to get there just to sit in one room 100 miles away....lol it seems a lot just for that.

(I'm assuming you go to the London Temple? Been there for the rededication when I was 10...awesome temple).

Yes we go to the London temple. I was at the rededication too, I was 8. Maybe we passed each other in the corridor It's a nice temple I suppose. I like the grounds, now that Im allowed to walk around them (we went down as a YSA once and were told we weren't allowed to walk around the grounds. They were scared of what we'd 'get upto'. As if anyone wanting to cause trouble would go to the temple anyway. pathetic)

Don't worry about settling all your concerns at once, and don't worry about being perfect--you or Rob

Maybe thats the key. Im too much of a perfectionist, and Rob is worse. He's a decorator and he's such a perfectionist with his work. Its why he's got so far in his career. He applies the same principles to the rest of his life. And my job involves doing things so perfectly that it literally can mean life or death decisions. I made a mistake once that I'll never do again, that could have cost someone their life. I cant do things by halves. If Im not 100% up there I can't do it, as I know i wont be good enough. But maybe if what you say is right its worth a shot.

Perhaps ask your dad to go with you to help you and your husband understand everything better.

Oh he's been trying to get us to do that for ages. We're both a bit reluctant as my Dad puts me on a pedestal and I dont want him to know the extent of my issues in the church as the last active child of his. I know parents dont have 'favourites' but Ive always been the favoured child. Id hate for him to have that image of me crushed as he relies on me for lots of things. I would hate for him to go to someone else for advice if he felt I wasnt as 'spiritual' or whatever as he thought. Plus Rob's male pride thing (grr why do men have that?) He thinks that my Dad will see him as a failure for not doing his job properly as a husband etc and a returned missionary and all. Rob suggested the temple president but I dunno. He must have better things to do than talk to the likes of us. Plus he'll be old. Not being funny but old people in the church never seem to have mjch of an idea what the younger generations face and go through today. I can see the meeting being a bit of a disaster.

I wish you could hop on a plane too CK and come with us lol

Remind Rob that our best is not enough--but it is necessary. Christ takes care of the rest

I'll try and convince him. And myself.

Your husband is right: the church does expect a lot. I'm not sure of your ward/branch's size, but of course, the smaller the unit the more callings and expectations. That of course takes up time.

Our ward is very small, maybe 70 people out every week. so yes we have more responsibilities. I dont like our ward, thats half the problem. Ive wanted to go to my ward for ages (which is huge-less responsinbilities, more young people, more friends)but Rob doesnt want to move. Hes in EQ and the president is a couple of years older than him. They dont get on, the pres is smarmy and self righteous and tries to make Rob look stupid, and himself good. He's full of it. So Rob does the bare minimum which is still a lot. But the pres never listens to his suggestions, and they never have meetings, he decides everything. So Rob has given up trying as it wont get him anywhere. Im on primary presidency but seriously, Im thinking of calling it quits. I cant do it anymore. I cant teach kids stuff Im not sure if I believe myself. I need to sort myself out first before Im in a position to teach anyone else. Plus I really feel Ive missed out these last two years. I dont get lessons or the chance to hear and discuss church doctrine. Im stuck in a tiny room at the end of the church with these kids. But then the other counsellor is leaving in 2 months and i feel bad about deserting the pres....aaahhhhh more mind games. Im still working on what to do about that. Im the chorister too, i can just about cope with that. If anyone dares slate my choice of hymns I give them my 'look' and they never speak to me again. Ho hum.

I like the idea of the missionaries. The trouble is a lot of them are robotic clones spouting off what they're taught from a manual. If they were frank, and up for an open discussion and put the manual away, I might consider it. But the missionaries we've had lately havent been great. Ill think about it.

Thanks for all your suggestions thus far. Its given me food for thought.

[Guest Yediyd]

Case 3: As I have issues with the temple I havent been wearing my garments. I was at work one day when I fell ill with severe heart problems. I was rushed down to A&E, obviously in my uniform. Straight away, they told me to take it off so they could do ecgs and whatever. I silently thanked my 'rebellion' or whatever you wanna call it that I wasnt wearing them as she could straight away hook me up and sort me out. Now, if I had been wearing them, I would have had to show them to the nurse as she was there. It was hardly the time or the place for me to say 'can you wait outside a minute' as she would have said, oh dont worry ive seen it all before, just take it off. She would then have had to see the garments, watch me take off my bra, then the garments, then put my bra back on so she could do an ecg. All the while Im Short of breath and dizzy, nauseaous, heart going like the clappers, Id have had to faff around sorting my garments out. As a result she would have seen more of my body (gasp!) and it would have delayed my treatment, and probably made me look like a fool. Now, if it was a reversable situation, and something had happened that was good while I had my garments on, we would have all said, oh look how the garments are 'protecting' us. So, does this mean that the Lord is 'confirming' my decision not to wear them through this incident??

This has got to be the most convoluted, ridiculous thing I have ever heard!! I have had two recent visits to the hospital...one was a heart attack, I went to the emergency room, they put all those monitors and tubes in me...AROUND my garments...I was in the hospital for three days...I never took off my garments, they worked around them. The other visit was when I had pneumonia, again...the nurses worked around my garments!! I was thankful to have them, as I wear full piece ones, and I felt ore covered up...I hate the hospital gowns they give you!! I was in the hospital for 9 days with the pneumonia...I had a nice lady in the relief society bring me clean clothes so I could change into clean ones, but...other than that, I never took my garments off. I explained to the nurses that it was a religious preference...they never questioned it after that.

And my care during my heart attack was just fine!! They worked around my garments with no problems!!! Even when I had all those wires and tubes hooked up to me...they were able to do it without taking off the garments!!!

Give me a break!!!!

[Aphrodite]

Im sorry you had a heart attack Yediyd. But I dont think its fair of you to slam the way I feel about wearing garments. I was wearing them when I had my wedding dress fittings and I had to stand there in front of the shop girl wearing them while she helped me into my dress. I felt so uncomfortable and stupid. I really didnt care what she thought-I felt stupid. I would have felt the same at the hospital, so I thanked my stars I didnt have them on. I felt 'normal'. I felt ME. I cant help hating them. Even if I had no issues with the church or temple Id still hate them. My step Mother hates them but she still wears them. The stake Presidents wife hates them. I think most women probably do, or at least have issue with them. Even if they are 'right' they're still awful horrible unconfortable impractical things. I dont think its unrealistic of me to feel uncomfortable in front of strangers in underwear circa 1850.

If you dont Yedi, fine, but I do. We're all different.

[Gabelma]

Plus, since I went to the temple my testimony has dramatically disappeared. I thought it was supposed to be the pinnacle of spirituality and what i had been waiting my whole life for. I was told it was wonderful and 'I would love it' Instead, it was a huge disappointment and has had such an effect on me. I didnt love it, I hated it. I feel...empty I suppose. I thought the temple would make me feel spiritually complete. But it didnt, and i feel like there's still something missing and I've been somehow cheated out of that. So you're right, I feel angry about that. I feel angry I wasnt given enough information to adequately prepare. And now Im suffering for it. I honestly felt traumatised by the temple. I remember sitting there in the sessioon with my head spinning, fighting back tears thinking, this isnt my church, there's been a terrible mistake somewhere. And that feeling has never left me.

The temple is the main cause of all my problems. Thats the reason I joined this site in the first place, to try and find answers and peace. If I hadnt gone to the temple, half my issues wouldnt exist. The temple has ruined my testimony and for that, I feel angry. I wish I could get over it but I cant. Ive prayed to feel peace but I dont.

Have a confession to make going through the temple for an endownment terrfies me physically and mentally it is everything that challenges and exhausts me in one package. For me it isn't the pinnacle of my spirtuality, and I suspect in this life it will never be, I do know other disabled members also struggle with it. I think it would be nice if people could turn round and say well actually the temple is a trial for me. I was also told not to payattention to myfirst session as it is difficult to take in things and to go back as much as possible to start off with, but I do still avoid going.

Had you done a lot of baptisms? I found they gave me more of a testimony of the temple and its what helped me through. The baptisms allow to feel the spirit, without the need to concerntrate

Charley

[Maureen]

It's nice to see that Aphrodite finally got some good advice from the right people.

M.

[Alaskagain]

It's nice to see that Aphrodite finally got some good advice from the right people.

M.

But it did take her a while to state the real crux of the problem. Which is okay; one of the advantages of dialogue is that it helps clarify one's thinking.

AG