Youtube Apologetics

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Mormons are a cult  (revised)

RESPONSE

Watch the first five minutes of this PBS documentary which exposes little known Mormon cult behaviour. http://player.pbs.org/viralplayer/2365789090/

Edited August 5, 2016 by cdowis

[NeedleinA]

.....

Edited August 5, 2016 by NeedleinA

[cdowis]

I would appreciate it if you and the others would start your own thread on the issue of defending the church, rather than hijacking this thread.  This is dedicated to specific apologetic responses,

Thanks.

Edited August 5, 2016 by cdowis

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

CRITIC

Mormons are a cult  (revised)

RESPONSE

Watch the first five minutes of this PBS documentary which exposes little known Mormon cult behaviour. http://player.pbs.org/viralplayer/2365789090/

 Even as a non member I thought the "Mormons are a cult" argument was without merit.

[NeedleinA]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

I would appreciate it if you and the others would start your own thread on the issue of defending the church, rather than hijacking this thread.  This is dedicated to specific apologetic responses,

Thanks.

Enjoy your thread.

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

 Even as a non member I thought the "Mormons are a cult" argument was without merit.

Got to separate Church and doctrine from "tradition" and "custom;" the LDS Church isn't a cult, but plenty of Mormons make their own.

[Guest MormonGator]

27 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Got to separate Church and doctrine from "tradition" and "custom;" the LDS Church isn't a cult, but plenty of Mormons make their own.

Some certainly do, but it's usually the older ones that have been in the same ward for over 30 years. And even then, they aren't bad people-just very set in their ways and unwelcoming to new people. 

[Guest MormonGator]

31 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Got to separate Church and doctrine from "tradition" and "custom;" the LDS Church isn't a cult, but plenty of Mormons make their own.

Some certainly do, but it's usually the older ones that have been in the same ward for over 30 years. And even then, they aren't bad people-just very set in their ways and unwelcoming to new people. 

i've seen wards like that who complain about retention and people not going to church but don't exactly embrace visitors-so it's their own fault but they can't see why. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

13 hours ago, cdowis said:

CRITIC

Mormons are a cult  (revised)

Where did this absurd use of "cult" come from?

(Please don't answer, we all know: "Dr." Walter Martin abused it in his infamous opus minimus The Kingdom of the Cults.

"Cult", after all, means any form of religious worship, including all brands of Christianity. To call LDSs cultists is to say that others, the "non-cultists", don't worship at all.

Lehi

[Guest]

On 8/6/2016 at 7:49 PM, LeSellers said:

Where did this absurd use of "cult" come from?

(Please don't answer, we all know: "Dr." Walter Martin abused it in his infamous opus minimus The Kingdom of the Cults.

"Cult", after all, means any form of religious worship, including all brands of Christianity. To call LDSs cultists is to say that others, the "non-cultists", don't worship at all.

Lehi

It actually has roots a lot earlier.  Forgive me for forgetting the names, but I am way too tired to look up all this that I read years ago.

In the 1800s a religious sociologist of types did a study of "mystical" religions and para-religions that were popping up everywhere.  Instead of giving them a long title, he decided to use the word "cult" for its similarity to "occult".  His intent was to not necessarily say that such religions were evil.  But they shared in the concept of "mysticism", while possilby being fairly innocent.  Thus the new meaning of "cult" was born.

It remained in this infant stage until around the 50s and 60s when what we would call today "New Age" and/or "Earth Based" religions were popping up.  During that time many people revived this word to mean "the new religions".  Even though we were over 100 years old at the time, we were still obscure enough to be lumped in with the Jehovah's witnesses, Unitarians, Christian Scientists, and so on, as well as the new age type faiths.  Dr. Martin was only one of many who used this label with Mormons.

With Pres. McKay and Pres. Kimball really pushing missionary work, we became much more visible and were the lightning rods for this general sentiment about the "new religions".  And it hasn't stopped.  While, apparently, there are many anti-JW, anti-Christian Scientists, and so on, Mormons we tend to outnumber others in their enemies.

Website searches indicate only anti-catholic webistes outnumber anti-Mormon websites 3:1.  But they also have a much greater world presence and "membership", if you can call it that.  Interestingly, Scientologists have almost as many unfavorable sites as we do with only 25,000 US adherents compared to our 7Million (is that the current US figure?).

Edited August 7, 2016 by Guest

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Quoting various church leaders on various subjects, expressing their opinions.  (revised)

RESPONSE

There is a difference between a church expressing his personal opinion, and church doctrine. For example, the Southern Baptist church used the Bible for decades to justify slavery and segregation. It recently apologized for those teachings. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112329862

Here is a statement of clarification from the LDS church

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

This video does not distinguish the critical differences between doctrine and opinions of church leaders. The producers of the video "forgot" that there were many other churches which expressed such opinions, such as the Southern Baptist church. They are spreading their brand of hatred and divisiveness with clever rhetoric.

Edited August 8, 2016 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Joseph Smith had 40 wives, some of whom were already married, and others who were 14 years old.  (revised)

RESPONSE

"some were already married"
There are two types of marriage -- temporal and spiritual marriages. Spiritual marriages are sealings for eternity only. These women already had another husband, in a temporal marriage, and their "marriage" to Joseph Smith were for eternity only.

"14 years old"
Permission was granted from both the father as well as the young lady. While unusual, it was permitted -- the King of England, Henry VII, was born to the queen when she was only 13 years old.

[mordorbund]

4 hours ago, cdowis said:

There are two types of marriage -- temporal and spiritual marriages

I would avoid the phrase "spiritual marriages". At the time, Joseph's detractors accused him of "spiritual wifery", which was different in doctrine and practice from what he was doing.

[cdowis]

Recent debate between apologist and critic.  

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Can't natural phenomenons just occur, without any creator?  
Why would God be necessary for our universe?

RESPONSE

Natural laws are independent of Divinity, He did not create those laws and are subject to those laws. And matter itself is eternal, not created. Now, i assume you know the relationship between scientists (pure science) and engineers. In my analogy, the scientists describe laws (pure science), whilst the engineers apply those laws into practical applications.

Divinity ORGANIZES (creates) using those laws, as an artist creates (organizes) his masterpiece. He does not "create" the canvas, brushes or pigments but uses these existing elements. Basically "creation" simply means to organize, using existing materials, laws, and designs, as does a product engineer.

Simple.

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Mountain Meadows Massacre and BY

RESPONSE

This is the "proof" that Bagley presents for this theory, and a response to to Bagley's claim
http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2003-fair-conference/2003-shining-new-light-on-the-mountain-meadows-massacre

In the case of Will Bagley, he started with the premise that Brigham Young ordered it done and that’s been suggested for years....

As far as evidence, again, on the first of September Brigham Young met with a bunch of Paiutes; sub-chiefs brought up to Salt Lake by Jacob Hamblin. Dimick Huntington wrote in this journal (he was in the meeting) that Brigham Young said, ‘You can have the cattle on the California road.’ And Bagley makes a lot of that as a smoking gun kind of thing. In fact at one time he thought that was going to make his book. But as it turns out he also told the Utes that, he also told the Shoshone that. He was trying to get the Indians on his side in the coming Utah War; he thought there was going to be a big fight. Other than that, I don’t know of any verifiable evidence at all that Brigham Young ordered that.

The only other piece of the story that might suggest that he did is that just before the massacre happened, George A. Smith was sent on a long speech-making trip through Southern Utah. We don’t know a lot of what he said in his speeches. We know about some of what he said but they were tough speeches about standing up to the army and the Americans and it was incendiary. And so, there are those who think that Smith was sent down there with that kind of invective and then when he got done with his speech, he’d pull a stake president or a few bishops aside and say, ‘And by the way don’t hesitate to kill anybody you can.’ But that’s all speculation.

I think most scholars who are honest about this, the trail doesn’t lead to Brigham Young.

Edited August 22, 2016 by cdowis

[cdowis]

Google earth shows shortcut to Mormon chapel.

[cdowis]

CRITIC 

God is unnecessary for the creation of the universe  (revised)

RESPONSE

Divinity uses natural laws in the creation process, including gravity, evolution, etc.  Matter and natural laws are eternal.

"But why, dear fellow, is God necessary at all?"

He is similar to an artist.  He uses the materials and tools at hand, such as pigments, canvas, brushes, the principle of perspective, etc, to create his masterpiece.  Creation is the process of ORGANIZATION of materials in chaos.

The ability of raw matter to self-organize is very limited

[cdowis]

CRITIC

The burden of proof lies on you to prove that the BOM is authentic.

RESPONSE

I have absolutely no interest in proving anything to you.  That is something between you and God.  Now if you want to convince ME that is is false, let's see what you got.  You need to be able to explain etc etc

Edited September 5, 2016 by cdowis

[Sunday21]

On August 5, 2016 at 7:28 AM, cdowis said:

CRITIC

Mormons are a cult  (revised)

RESPONSE

Watch the first five minutes of this PBS documentary which exposes little known Mormon cult behaviour. http://player.pbs.org/viralplayer/2365789090/

Thanks for posting!

[cdowis]

CRITIC

God does not change.

RESPONSE

Is God changeable? You have a problem here with the Bible, because the trinity god could never be Jesus a man, die and be resurrected with a body. He would not have been "made perfect" by learning obedience. He would not have a different "will" from the Father.

Heb 5 [8] Though he were a Son, yet *learned he obedience* by the things which he suffered; [9] And *being made perfect*, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Luke 24 [39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for** a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have**.

Christ to the Father Matt 26 [39]...let this cup pass from me: nevertheless *not as I will, but as thou wilt*.

You know nothing about the nature of God

[Larry Cotrell]

Hebrews 13:8

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever."

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by Larry Cotrell

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Science vs religion

RESPONSE

A scientist will consider the  imponderable contradictions of quantum mechanics with reality, such as the Copenhagn effect, without  wincing, but bring up similar issues regarding  science and religion, there a loud  howls of "intellectual dishonesty"  and derision for anyone who is bold enough to be open minded on the issues.(cdowis)

I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics. ~Richard Feynman 

Quantum mechanics is perhaps the most successful theory in the history of science. It enables physicists, chemists, and technicians to calculate and predict the outcome of a vast number of experiments and to create new and advanced technology based on the insight into the behavior of atomic objects. But it is also a theory that challenges our imagination. It seems to violate some fundamental principles of classical physics, principles that eventually have become a part of western common sense since the rise of the modern worldview in the Renaissance.  -- Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

[cdowis]

CRITIC

JS was a treasure seeker

RESPONSE

And Paul persecuted the Christians and threw them into prison. God has His own particular idea on who will be His prophets.  They may be mortal and flawed, but He really knows best.

Edited September 11, 2016 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Racism

RESPONSE

The split between the Northern and Southern Baptist organizations arose over doctrinal issues pertaining to slavery and the education of slaves. At the time of the split, the Southern Baptist group used the curse of Cain as a justification for slavery. Some 19th- and 20th-century Baptist ministers in the Southern United States taught that there were two separate heavens; one for blacks, and one for whites.^[22] Baptists have taught or practiced various forms of racial segregation well into the mid-to-late-20th century, though members of all races were accepted at worship services.^[23] In 1995, the Southern Baptist Convention officially denounced racism and apologized for its past defense of slavery.^[24]

The curse of Cain was used to support a ban on ordaining blacks to most Protestant clergies until the 1960s in both the United States and Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_and_mark_of_Cain
This was not a doctrine of the LDS church, but an expression of personal opinion by certain church leaders.

Here is what the church teaches: see https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

Edited September 17, 2016 by cdowis