The Symmetry Of Salvation

[CrimsonKairos]

I think it's marvelous how the phrase, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first," applies to the Fall and the Atonement.

An immortal virgin (Eve) helped bring sin and death to the world by taking fruit from a tree.

A mortal virgin (Mary) helped bring redemption and immortality to the world by her fruit (Jesus) being put on a tree (the cross).

Beautiful, isn't it?

[Traveler]

I think it's marvelous how the phrase, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first," applies to the Fall and the Atonement.

An immortal virgin (Eve) helped bring sin and death to the world by taking fruit from a tree.

A mortal virgin (Mary) helped bring redemption and immortality to the world by her fruit (Jesus) being put on a tree (the cross).

Beautiful, isn't it?

There is another possible meaning. You are good at Hebrew - first seldom means "first in time" but rather "first in value". I am sure if you and I had a couple of days to walk together we could enjoy a very long discussion as to what this means.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

I have no doubt. B)

One way that occurs to me to apply that concept of "value" versus "chronology" is thusly:

The first in value concerning obedience is Jesus Christ. He alone is perfectly obedient.

The last in value concerning obedience are mortals. None of us are perfectly obedient.

So, the first (Jesus) became last (mortal) so that the last (mankind) can become the first (perfect like Jesus).

[Traveler]

I have no doubt. B)

One way that occurs to me to apply that concept of "value" versus "chronology" is thusly:

The first in value concerning obedience is Jesus Christ. He alone is perfectly obedient.

The last in value concerning obedience are mortals. None of us are perfectly obedient.

So, the first (Jesus) became last (mortal) so that the last (mankind) can become the first (perfect like Jesus).

Very good, very good. The most nobel of the Father's Children placed himself in the worse (lowest value)place to take upon him the burdens of the lowest or the last. And I believe you are 100% correct - for the propose that the lowest of all humans could stand in the first place of the universe - which is the rightful place of G-d.

Now for fun, another thought. The first man to hold priesthood keys from G-d was Adam - the last man to again hold those keys before they are returned to G-d will once again be Adam.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

:)

[MaidservantX]

I don't know that Eve was a virgin.

[CrimsonKairos]

Check again. B)

[Snow]

I think it's marvelous how the phrase, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first," applies to the Fall and the Atonement.

An immortal virgin (Eve) helped bring sin and death to the world by taking fruit from a tree.

A mortal virgin (Mary) helped bring redemption and immortality to the world by her fruit (Jesus) being put on a tree (the cross).

Beautiful, isn't it?

I don't think Eve was immortal and who says she was a virgin?

[CrimsonKairos]

So before the Fall...before sin and death entered the world...Adam and Eve were mortal?

As for her being a virgin, I'm of the school of thought that believes prior to the Fall Adam and Eve were innocent like children, didn't know what sex was, didn't have sex, and were unashamed of their bodies which they didn't fully understand.

But you don't have to buy that if it rubs you wrong.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

So, the first (Jesus) became last (mortal) so that the last (mankind) can become the first (perfect like Jesus).

Where's a Snow couplet when you need one?

[prisonchaplain]

So before the Fall...before sin and death entered the world...Adam and Eve were mortal?

As for her being a virgin, I'm of the school of thought that believes prior to the Fall Adam and Eve were innocent like children, didn't know what sex was, didn't have sex, and were unashamed of their bodies which they didn't fully understand.

But you don't have to buy that if it rubs you wrong.

I have heard sex between married couples defined as one of the highest forms of worship to our God. It does strike me as odd to consider it a consequence of the Fall.

[Doctor Steuss]

<div class='quotemain'>

So before the Fall...before sin and death entered the world...Adam and Eve were mortal?

As for her being a virgin, I'm of the school of thought that believes prior to the Fall Adam and Eve were innocent like children, didn't know what sex was, didn't have sex, and were unashamed of their bodies which they didn't fully understand.

But you don't have to buy that if it rubs you wrong.

I have heard sex between married couples defined as one of the highest forms of worship to our God. It does strike me as odd to consider it a consequence of the Fall.

Some scholars (looking at the Eden account as allegorical) have proposed that the "fruit" was a sexual act (thusly they become ashamed of their nakedness)

I don't know if it was necessarily a "consequence" of the fall (although according to scripture, child birth was a consequence -- something to think about in regards to the "sex" question). It does seem to make sense in the context of them suddenly becoming ashamed of their bodies. If they didn't know right from wrong, and had no understanding or shame of their nakedness, would they really have comprehension of their sexuality? I tend to lean towards the negative... but there is definitely room for disagreement.

[prisonchaplain]

There is much about the Edenic state that is mysterious. How long were they there (hours/days or centuries, etc.), did Adam have a navel, etc. In the end, we can only speculate. I see both sides of this discussion.

[Alaskagain]

There is much about the Edenic state that is mysterious. . . , did Adam have a navel, etc. In the end, we can only speculate. I see both sides of this discussion.

That thought has never entered my pitiful brain before.

I love this place!

<slurking off to contemplate>

[CrimsonKairos]

I agree that Eden can be viewed more than one way.

Me? I go with the simplest explanation. I think Adam and Eve didn't know what their genitals were for, since they were innocent and child-like, and hence didn't participate in sex prior to their eyes being opened.

If Adam and Eve had sex prior to the Fall, but had no children, then we'd have to assume that:

1.) God commanded them to multiply and have children.

2.) God made them infertile or unable to conceive until after the Fall.

To me, that seems circuitous and onerous to maintain. It's simpler to just not let them know what sex is until after their Fall, at which point having sex and children advances God's plan for the rest of us.

Anyway, thanks for spitting on my cool, cool original post. I derived the idea from some Ante-Nicene Fathers' writings I recently read (I think it was Barnabas or Ignatius). And I still think Eve was a virgin when she ate the forbidden fruit.

Oh, before I forget. The concept that the forbidden fruit was the sex act in Eden, is ridiculous under scrutiny. Eve ate the fruit first, apart from Adam. Only after she ate did she go and convince Adam to eat the fruit for himself too. So unless people are suggesting the serpent taught Eve and Adam how to masturbate, the idea falls flat before it gets off the line. It also seems idiotic to say that once they had sex for the first time they'd suddenly be ashamed of their nudity. It's beyond a stretch to assert seriously that the fruit was a symbol of sex.

Besides, like I said, God commanded them to multiply and have children, He married them...why would He make it forbidden to have sex which is in harmony with both the commandment to multiply and their status as husband and wife? Hogwash.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Anyway, thanks for spitting on my cool, cool original post.

[...]

Sorry. It was truly good stuff; I didn't mean to derail (I have a really bad habit of being a thread derailer)...

[CrimsonKairos]

I was more talking about xhenli and Snow.

I didn't have problems with your comments, Dr. S. B)

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

I think it's marvelous how the phrase, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first," applies to the Fall and the Atonement.

An immortal virgin (Eve) helped bring sin and death to the world by taking fruit from a tree.

A mortal virgin (Mary) helped bring redemption and immortality to the world by her fruit (Jesus) being put on a tree (the cross).

Beautiful, isn't it?

I don't think Eve was immortal and who says she was a virgin?

It is my understanding that Eve was amortal - not subject to death but not "eternal" either. It is also interesting that one of the ancient definitions of a virgin is someone un-touched by mortal man. It is also considered that a woman (and a man) maintains their virtue in marriage. In other words the act or reproduction is a divine act of creation shared with G-d in covenants. Any other use of the powers of creation are an abomination.

The Traveler

There is much about the Edenic state that is mysterious. How long were they there (hours/days or centuries, etc.), did Adam have a navel, etc. In the end, we can only speculate. I see both sides of this discussion.

The creation in Genesis speaks to the creation of "man" not Adam. I believe that it is speculation to assume that G-d created some men (Adam) in one manner and others (us) in some different manner. Did adam have a navel? - of course he did the speculation is in assuming he didn't = which forces the speculation that G-d is not consistant.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I'm not sure it matters, but, just for the sake of discussion, whether Adam was the first men, or whether these were the first generation, if they were not physically birthed, there was no umbilical cord. Ergo, perhaps they had no navel. I wouldn't be dogmatic about this, but it does not seem reasonable to insist that they did, and only consider the alternative speculation--imho, of course.

[CrimsonKairos]

It is my understanding that Eve was amortal - not subject to death but not "eternal" either.

Bro, this is semantics. Immortal means not mortal. So call it immortal, amortal, antimortal, whatever...Eve was not subject to death prior to the Fall. That was what I was highlighting.

It is also considered that a woman (and a man) maintains their virtue in marriage.

But not their virgin status. Who said otherwise? I don't see what this has to do with showing Eve was a virgin or wasn't.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

It is my understanding that Eve was amortal - not subject to death but not "eternal" either.

Bro, this is semantics. Immortal means not mortal. So call it immortal, amortal, antimortal, whatever...Eve was not subject to death prior to the Fall. That was what I was highlighting.

It is also considered that a woman (and a man) maintains their virtue in marriage.

But not their virgin status. Who said otherwise? I don't see what this has to do with showing Eve was a virgin or wasn't.

Amortal is not just semantics - in the same manner that someone can be moral immoral or amoral. The flesh of Adam and Eve were quite different than the flesh of a resurrected being. There is a difference that ought to and should be recognized. This is one of the most important points in the discussion of the fall and should not be glossed over or missrepresented. The flesh of a amortal being that falls can be redeemed - the flesh of an immortal being cannot - this is why it is so important to "Prepare" prior to becoming immortal. This is a most important concept in the plan of salvation.

According to you definition of a virgin - there is not information to indicate if Eve was or was not a virgin and therefore should not be speculated. According to my understanding of ancient interpretation of things - she was untouched by anything mortal; which is the meaning of virtuous which is also the intent of virgin as I understand it. Virtue and virgin being different forms of the same conceptual idea. Again my intent is to make sure that what we know is not misunderstood or subject to misdirection.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

Amortal is not just semantics...The flesh of Adam and Eve were quite different than the flesh of a resurrected being.

Wow, you're going deeper than I was intending to. My original post was merely contrasting the fact that prior to the Fall, Eve was not subject to death, while after the Fall, Mary was. I wasn't commenting on the quality of their tangible bodies.

Virtue and virgin being different forms of the same conceptual idea.

Virgin signifies one who has not had sexual intercourse. A woman can be a virgin but unclean or without virtue due to her lifestyle or lack of obedience. Similarly, one who is not a virgin can be clean and virtuous since as you said earlier, sex is not in and of itself an unclean act.

I see no problem speculating that Eve was a virgin before the Fall. I don't believe Adam and Eve had sex before the Fall. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. B)

[Traveler]

Virgin signifies one who has not had sexual intercourse. A woman can be a virgin but unclean or without virtue due to her lifestyle or lack of obedience. Similarly, one who is not a virgin can be clean and virtuous since as you said earlier, sex is not in and of itself an unclean act.

I see no problem speculating that Eve was a virgin before the Fall. I don't believe Adam and Eve had sex before the Fall. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. B)

Interesting that you feel this way based on your speculation and definations. Considering the first commandment given to Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:28) Is there any commandment that you feel Adam and Eve were obedient to or attempted any obedience to, prior to the fall?

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't believe they understood how to obey the command to multiply and have children. Check out these verses from 2 Nephi 2:

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

This shows pretty clearly that if Adam and Eve had never eaten the forbidden fruit, they wouldn't have had any children. That means one of two things:

1.) Adam and Eve had sex but God somehow kept Eve from getting pregnant until after the Fall, thereby frustrating His own command that they have children.

2.) Adam and Eve were like children, didn't know what sex was, never had sex until after the Fall and that's why they had no children in Eden.

I think option #2 is far more reasonable than #1. But that's just me.

[Traveler]

I don't believe they understood how to obey the command to multiply and have children. Check out these verses from 2 Nephi 2:

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

This shows pretty clearly that if Adam and Eve had never eaten the forbidden fruit, they wouldn't have had any children. That means one of two things:

1.) Adam and Eve had sex but God somehow kept Eve from getting pregnant until after the Fall, thereby frustrating His own command that they have children.

2.) Adam and Eve were like children, didn't know what sex was, never had sex until after the Fall and that's why they had no children in Eden.

I think option #2 is far more reasonable than #1. But that's just me.

Thank you for your efforts - It would appear that the end of verse 22 contridicts #2. It appears to me to say that Eve could not get pregnant. It was not a matter of what Adam and Eve could understand but a matter of what there were capable of. I believe the main point is that they must partake of the fruit in order to be obedient to the first commandment. I find it interesting that few consider that the problem was not in eating the fruit but the manner in which they came to take of the fruit under the conditions that Satan perscribed and not as G-d granted that the choice could be made.

Consider INephi 3:7 "....for I know that the L-rd giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they many accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

The Traveler