The Golden Rule

[Elphaba]

This is where I fear for you...you may want to acknowledge him then, but it may be too late...he wants us to trust him...to have faith...this is a hard thing for you, I know...but this is what Jesus requires of us...if you wait for proof...well, Jesus said that an evil and adulteress nation seeketh after a sign...He wants us to trust him and except him NOW...you may not get the chance to change your mind later.

(emphasis mine)

I'm going to try this one last time.

It is not a matter of changing my mind. I cannot believe in something I do not believe in. For me, it is exactly the same thing as trying to force myself to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy.

I am very sorry if that offends anyone, because I honestly don't mean for it to. I am trying very hard to demonstrate how it is for me when I think of any god. It is a mythical concept to me that has no reality in fact, and I cannot make myself believe otherwise. Believe me, if I could, I would. I have tried!

I think it is probably offensive to most of you if I say this about Jesus, so I'll use Zeus instead, but it's the same thing.

I can no more make myself believe in Zeus than I can in leprechauns. Can you make yourself believe leprechauns are real? Of course you can't. It is exactly the same thing for me when I try to even open myself up to the possibility that Zeus is real.

Again, this was not a decision I made. There was a journey involved. At the end of that journey was a belief system that does not include any god, not because I choose not to believe in a god, but because it does not make sense to me, and because it is impossible to me that it could exist.

I'm going to let this be my last post on the subject, because I think get it that this is too sensitive a subject for others here.

Elphaba

Help me to understand here. Is it that you don't believe Christ existed at all...or that he is our Savior and the Son of God?

Hi Pam,

I just said I'd put in my last word, but I am so happy you asked me, I'd be pleased to answer you.

I think it is probable Christ existed, though there is scholarship claiming he is a combination of many ancient myths. I am not a biblical scholar by any means, so I don't really know.

Nevertheless, if he did exist, I do not believe he was a divine being, the Son of God, or the Savior. If he did exist, he was probably an honored rabbi.

Thank you for asking me what I believed.

Elphaba

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>This is where I fear for you...you may want to acknowledge him then, but it may be too late...he wants us to trust him...to have faith...this is a hard thing for you, I know...but this is what Jesus requires of us...if you wait for proof...well, Jesus said that an evil and adulteress nation seeketh after a sign...He wants us to trust him and except him NOW...you may not get the chance to change your mind later.

(emphasis mine)

I'm going to try this one last time.

It is not a matter of changing my mind. I cannot believe in something I do not believe in. For me, it is exactly the same thing as trying to force myself to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy.

I am very sorry if that offends anyone, because I honestly don't mean for it to. I am trying very hard to demonstrate how it is for me when I think of any god. It is a mythical concept to me that has no reality in fact, and I cannot make myself believe otherwise. Believe me, if I could, I would. I have tried!

I think it is probably offensive to most of you if I say this about Jesus, so I'll use Zeus instead, but it's the same thing.

I can no more make myself believe in Zeus than I can in leprechauns. Can you make yourself believe leprechauns are real? Of course you can't. It is exactly the same thing for me when I try to even open myself up to the possibility that Zeus is real.

Again, this was not a decision I made. There was a journey involved. At the end of that journey was a belief system that does not include any god, not because I choose not to believe in a god, but because it does not make sense to me, and because it is impossible to me that it could exist.

I'm going to let this be my last post on the subject, because I think get it that this is too sensitive a subject for others here.

Elphaba When I said: Change your mind...I didn't mean now...I know that you can't or won't...I ment, Later after you die, after you meet Jesus, You said that if he walked up to you, you would then believe...trouble is...it may be too late to "Change your mind" then.

BTW,,,my feelings are not hurt, we have had this discussion in private, El...I am just responding to you and your questions, and as you can see...my views have not changed, and for that matter...neither have yours...I think we should just agree to disagree and move on...nice chatting with ya!!!!

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>This is where I fear for you...you may want to acknowledge him then, but it may be too late...he wants us to trust him...to have faith...this is a hard thing for you, I know...but this is what Jesus requires of us...if you wait for proof...well, Jesus said that an evil and adulteress nation seeketh after a sign...He wants us to trust him and except him NOW...you may not get the chance to change your mind later.

(emphasis mine)

I'm going to try this one last time.

It is not a matter of changing my mind. I cannot believe in something I do not believe in. For me, it is exactly the same thing as trying to force myself to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy.

I am very sorry if that offends anyone, because I honestly don't mean for it to. I am trying very hard to demonstrate how it is for me when I think of any god. It is a mythical concept to me that has no reality in fact, and I cannot make myself believe otherwise. Believe me, if I could, I would. I have tried!

I think it is probably offensive to most of you if I say this about Jesus, so I'll use Zeus instead, but it's the same thing.

I can no more make myself believe in Zeus than I can in leprechauns. Can you make yourself believe leprechauns are real? Of course you can't. It is exactly the same thing for me when I try to even open myself up to the possibility that Zeus is real.

Again, this was not a decision I made. There was a journey involved. At the end of that journey was a belief system that does not include any god, not because I choose not to believe in a god, but because it does not make sense to me, and because it is impossible to me that it could exist.

I'm going to let this be my last post on the subject, because I think get it that this is too sensitive a subject for others here.

Elphaba When I said: Change your mind...I didn't mean now...I know that you can't or won't...I ment, Later after you die, after you meet Jesus, You said that if he walked up to you, you would then believe...trouble is...it may be too late to "Change your mind" then.

BTW,,,my feelings are not hurt, we have had this discussion in private, El...I am just responding to you and your questions, and as you can see...my views have not changed, and for that matter...neither have yours...I think we should just agree to disagree and move on...nice chatting with ya!!!!

I couldn't agree more, and I love you too!

Elphie

[Iggy]

Just one more question: Are you still looking?

[john doe]

<div class='quotemain'>

Then let me clarify for you. You asked me if I was offended. I said no, I am not. I thought you meant generally, and so I answered in generalities. If you had meant specifically about this incident, then obviously you should have asked about this incident.

. . .

There's no need to play games. Just say what you want to say. If you see where I really have been disrespectful then I'd like to know about it.

No, I wasn't talking about this thread. I wondered if you were offended by the amount of money spent on the space shuttle program in general. What a convoluted response. THAT is a really good example of being disrepectful of the intelligence level of everyone here.

You seem really angry with JD because he said you were going to go to hell if you did not acknowledge the Master. Seems to me Yediyd was the first poster who said that you would not get into Heaven if you did not believe in and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Doesn't that mean the same thing?

In addition, you seem really angry that JD wrote that not only would you go to hell, but that you would actually like it there. Have you looked at some of the posts in other threads considering the eternities by Traveler, CK, and others who discuss the possibility that we all end up where we want to be the most, and where we have prepared to go? If you don't acknowledge Jesus, and you don't want to acknowledge Jesus, and you don't acknowledge Jesus in the future, then why would you want to exist with others who do acknowledge Him? They would drive you nuts. "Oh, dear, why don't you believe? He's standing right in front of you!", all day long. 24/7. Can you imagine that? You would be begging," PULLEASE get me OUT of HERE. NOW!. "You will want to exist with others who don't acknowledge Him, and you will be comfortable around them, because you will have a lot in common with them. That doesn't mean we think you are an evil person. That doesn't mean JD wishes that existence for you. He probably would love it if you turned right around and got on your knees and said a prayer to God that you don't believe in and immediately had a visit by a Heavenly Messenger to tell you,"Yes, Elphie, there is a God, and there is a Jesus. You can believe now." If I am wrong, he can correct me on this.

In addition, you seem angry that JD said you were a nag. Actually, that's not what he said. He said he ONCE considered you to be a nag. He doesn't feel that way any more. He changed his feeling. Now, he pities you.

And finally, you seem to be very angry that Berry "chastised" you in public. I think she was seeing the same high emotion run through here that I sensed, and was trying to calm it down. If I'm wrong, she can correct me on that, I really don't like speaking for other people. (sorry JD and SF)

I'm sure you will have a lengthy response to this. I humbly await your fire.

edit to add:

PS And just how do you know I'm not an attorney? Do you have people following me?

I just read this, I hadn't seen it before now.

I just want to say thanks, at least YOU got what I meant, I was getting worried that I wasn't being very clear. Now I think she is purposely misreading me and my words.

[Elphaba]

I was getting worried that I wasn't being very clear. Now I think she is purposely misreading me and my words.

If I misread your words, it was not on purpose.

It would help me a lot if you would please keep your personal feelings about me off of the board.

If you'd like, you could send me a PM.

Thank you,

Elphaba

[pushka]

I'd just like to add a further comment, in view of the extra posts made by Yediyd and others regarding the above.

I hope that my post last night didn't sound flippant...at the time I posted it, I was a little wound up that Elphie was being accused of not listening to the arguments of the Christians posting, and felt that was incorrect.

I really do appreciate the efforts of the Christians in wanting to help me and Elphie, and others not to be damned, and am sorry that, at the moment at least, we have doubts that your fears are unfounded.

Thank you for the efforts you are making...like I said before, one day our views might alter, and we may be able to have faith to believe again..afterall we've both been brought up in organised religions of one kind or another, so we probably both sometimes fear that our beliefs might be wrong and that we will be in trouble if there is a Judgement Day and such.

[Guest Yediyd]

I'd just like to add a further comment, in view of the extra posts made by Yediyd and others regarding the above.

I hope that my post last night didn't sound flippant...at the time I posted it, I was a little wound up that Elphie was being accused of not listening to the arguments of the Christians posting, and felt that was incorrect.

I really do appreciate the efforts of the Christians in wanting to help me and Elphie, and others not to be damned, and am sorry that, at the moment at least, we have doubts that your fears are unfounded.

Thank you for the efforts you are making...like I said before, one day our views might alter, and we may be able to have faith to believe again..afterall we've both been brought up in organised religions of one kind or another, so we probably both sometimes fear that our beliefs might be wrong and that we will be in trouble if there is a Judgement Day and such.

I was not trying to convert you or Elphaba...Pushka, I was just answering her questions honestly and openly and to the best of my ability...I do not believe either you OR her will be damned...as I said before, neither you nor Elphaba strike me as a "son of perdition".

[StrawberryFields]

Well put Yed.

[shanstress70]

Although I am a Christian, some people don't consider me so because I believe that people like Pushka and Elph will be among us in Heaven. I think that some people are just more skeptical than others and have to see things in black and white. God gave us the brains that we have. He will not punish us for that. Some of the most Christ-like individuals I've known have been non-believers.

I also believe that people from all walks of life and of all faiths will be in Heaven as well. And this is not so much an argument for the LDS among us, but the general Christian who believes that you must be saved in this life in order to go to Heaven.

The God I know, love, and believe in will not send someone to hell bc they happened to be born into a Hindu world where that's all they knew. And yes, I realize that most people hear of Christ these days, but what are the chances they will believe it if all they've been taught forever is something so totally different? That would be like you guys joining the Huindu religion.

[Guest Yediyd]

Well put Yed.

Thank you!!

[Doctor Steuss]

"It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine" -Joseph Smith

[pushka]

<div class='quotemain'> I'd just like to add a further comment, in view of the extra posts made by Yediyd and others regarding the above.

I hope that my post last night didn't sound flippant...at the time I posted it, I was a little wound up that Elphie was being accused of not listening to the arguments of the Christians posting, and felt that was incorrect.

I really do appreciate the efforts of the Christians in wanting to help me and Elphie, and others not to be damned, and am sorry that, at the moment at least, we have doubts that your fears are unfounded.

Thank you for the efforts you are making...like I said before, one day our views might alter, and we may be able to have faith to believe again..afterall we've both been brought up in organised religions of one kind or another, so we probably both sometimes fear that our beliefs might be wrong and that we will be in trouble if there is a Judgement Day and such.

I was not trying to convert you or Elphaba...Pushka, I was just answering her questions honestly and openly and to the best of my ability...I do not believe either you OR her will be damned...as I said before, neither you nor Elphaba strike me as a "son of perdition".

Hi Yediyd, thanks for your reply.

I did not mean to sound as if I believed you were trying to convert me and Elphie, I made an effort to exclude the word 'convert' from my post for that reason. Also, the idea of us being 'damned' does seem more appropriate when thinking of non-LDS Christians, as I understand your belief in the 3 different degrees of heaven, and Outer Darkness only being for those 'sons of perdition'. I'm sorry if my post was misleading in those respects.

I still appreciate the efforts of Christians to 'save' non Christians in whatever way they feel necessary, and I apologise if sometimes my disbelief offends your beliefs.

[Guest Yediyd]

Although I am a Christian, some people don't consider me so because I believe that people like Pushka and Elph will be among us in Heaven. I think that some people are just more skeptical than others and have to see things in black and white. God gave us the brains that we have. He will not punish us for that. Some of the most Christ-like individuals I've known have been non-believers.

I also believe that people from all walks of life and of all faiths will be in Heaven as well. And this is not so much an argument for the LDS among us, but the general Christian who believes that you must be saved in this life in order to go to Heaven.

The God I know, love, and believe in will not send someone to hell bc they happened to be born into a Hindu world where that's all they knew. And yes, I realize that most people hear of Christ these days, but what are the chances they will believe it if all they've been taught forever is something so totally different? That would be like you guys joining the Huindu religion.

I couldn't agree with you more, Shan!!! I believe that G-d will not judge us by LDS standards...he will judge us based on out hearts...what we knew and what we did with that knowledge... he said: To whom much is given, much is required.... Some will not be expected to understand who Christ was even if they have heard about him all their lives...I think of my beloved Jewish friend as I type this...I believe with ALL MY HEART that I will see her again, in Heaven. She is an AWSOME lady, who happens to NOT believe that Christ is Lord. She is 67 years old, she was raised as a Jew...that is what she knows and believes...She is one of G-d's chosen people....I can't wait to walk up to her later and say..."I told ya so!" and I have told her to expect this!!! (She smiled and told me to expect the same from her....we shall see, won't we?)

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'> I'd just like to add a further comment, in view of the extra posts made by Yediyd and others regarding the above.

I hope that my post last night didn't sound flippant...at the time I posted it, I was a little wound up that Elphie was being accused of not listening to the arguments of the Christians posting, and felt that was incorrect.

I really do appreciate the efforts of the Christians in wanting to help me and Elphie, and others not to be damned, and am sorry that, at the moment at least, we have doubts that your fears are unfounded.

Thank you for the efforts you are making...like I said before, one day our views might alter, and we may be able to have faith to believe again..afterall we've both been brought up in organised religions of one kind or another, so we probably both sometimes fear that our beliefs might be wrong and that we will be in trouble if there is a Judgement Day and such.

I was not trying to convert you or Elphaba...Pushka, I was just answering her questions honestly and openly and to the best of my ability...I do not believe either you OR her will be damned...as I said before, neither you nor Elphaba strike me as a "son of perdition".

Hi Yediyd, thanks for your reply.

I did not mean to sound as if I believed you were trying to convert me and Elphie, I made an effort to exclude the word 'convert' from my post for that reason. Also, the idea of us being 'damned' does seem more appropriate when thinking of non-LDS Christians, as I understand your belief in the 3 different degrees of heaven, and Outer Darkness only being for those 'sons of perdition'. I'm sorry if my post was misleading in those respects.

I still appreciate the efforts of Christians to 'save' non Christians in whatever way they feel necessary, and I apologise if sometimes my disbelief offends your beliefs. Just so ya know...I am not offended by you OR Elphaba...you are just expressing what you believe...there is no shame in that...I was doing the same...we don't agree...but I do not believe that any of us said anything offencive to one another.

[pushka]

Thank you Yediyd, I appreciate that! :)

[CrimsonKairos]

God gave us the brains that we have. He will not punish us for that.

My comment here has nothing to do with the thread, but I just had to say that I totally disagree with your statement here shan.

I literally hate it when people say, "God made me this way, it's just the way I am." It's such a cop-out! To ascribe our weaknesses to God is ridiculous.

Hey, how are those chickens of yours.

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

God gave us the brains that we have. He will not punish us for that.

My comment here has nothing to do with the thread, but I just had to say that I totally disagree with your statement here shan.

I literally hate it when people say, "God made me this way, it's just the way I am." It's such a cop-out! To ascribe our weaknesses to God is ridiculous.

Hey, how are those chickens of yours.

Ain't the first time, CK, and it won't be the last! I think that if God didn't want us to debate and have healthy disagreements, He would have made the truth more cut and dry and wouldn't have left so much room for doubt.

The chickens are great. But they're still slackers! Only one has started laying, so I get one small egg every two days. The others should start any day now. And the eggs will get bigger and should progress to every day. Everyone wants a free ride!

[CrimsonKairos]

Just remember not to put all your eggs in one basket. B)

[Dr T]

I agree with you CK. It is not God's fault, it's ours. Sin.

[Doctor Steuss]

<div class='quotemain'>

God gave us the brains that we have. He will not punish us for that.

My comment here has nothing to do with the thread, but I just had to say that I totally disagree with your statement here shan.

I literally hate it when people say, "God made me this way, it's just the way I am." It's such a cop-out! To ascribe our weaknesses to God is ridiculous.

Hey, how are those chickens of yours.

From an ex nihilo paradigm, I think the "God made me this way, it's just the way I am" is perfectly logical. From the non-ex nihilo paradigm, it is indeed a cop-out.

[CrimsonKairos]

Dang it, Dr. Stuess, what have I told you about being fair-minded?!

Technically I know the ex-nihilo distinction does matter...but since I don't buy ex-nihilo and since most people I know who claim "God made them that way" don't even know what ex-nihilo is...it's usually just a cheap way to get off the hook for unacceptable behavior.

[Dr T]

I don't see how you are getting there Dr. S. God creating out of nothing and concluding that God makes me behavior in X fashion, does not follow. Please explain how you got there.

Thank you

[Doctor Steuss]

I don't see how you are getting there Dr. S. God creating out of nothing and concluding that God makes me behavior in X fashion, does not follow. Please explain how you got there.

Thank you

Good afternoon Dr. T,

For the most part, it only makes sense from a philosophical perspective. I'm sure there are other avenues that make this seeming outcome go away (from a theological perspective in lieu of a philosophical and/or logical one). But, hopefully this will help clarify how I'm "getting there":

If G-d created everything out of nothing, and G-d is all-powerful (and all-knowing), then G-d is ultimately responsible for every creation and the way said creation acts and responds.

Try to think of it this way. If I wanted to make a pot, and I knew ultimately how every material that I could create would respond… and I ultimately chose a material that was inherently flawed, then I would essentially be responsible for those flaws. But, if I had to form the pot from pre-existing materials, then any flaws would no longer be my fault (especially if I made a contingency to help counteract those inherent flaws [i.e. the Atonement, the Holy Spirit, the power of discernment, etc.]). But, if I had the ability and know-how to create the materials themselves (thusly eliminating even the necessity for any form of contingency plan), I would then become complacent in any shortcomings of those materials.

I hope the above makes sense. My brain is kind of racing today and I’m having trouble expressing myself coherently.

BTW,

"most people I know who claim "God made them that way" don't even know what ex-nihilo is"

-Stu

[Adomini22]

"If G-d created everything out of nothing, and G-d is all-powerful (and all-knowing), then G-d is ultimately responsible for every creation and the way said creation acts and responds. "

Yeah, except that whole thing about agency. All were innocent and pure before God in the pre-existence. We all fit one general "mold". Then we were given the option to choose. After that, we decided where we ended up. If I put a goldfish in a tank, and know everything about the fish, am I controlling its actions? um....NO. People do what they choose to do. God isnt responsible if I get angry and drive my car in a house and kill someone. I dont see how this concept is hard to understand, personally.

[Gabelma]

I agree with you CK. It is not God's fault, it's ours. Sin.

Only thing is I would point to the parable of the talents. The man with 2 and the man with 5 dd not start or end equal but they did the best with what they were given. We are not all blessed with the same talents and strengths or the same weaknesses

Charley