Speaking in tongues

[prisonchaplain]

The opposite of becoming selfish in seeking spiritual gifts for personal edification is engaging in false humility (a version of pride?) that says we are unworthy of God's gifts, and will just muddle along with our natural talents and abilities.  We accomplish less for the Kingdom, perhaps see fewer souls converted, and then pat ourselves on the back for being simple and unassuming.  In the parable of the man who received guests late at night, and who then woke his neighbor baker to get some bread, Jesus said that if we persist (tarry) then surely the God who is better than our earthly fathers will grant us the gift of the Holy Spirit.  I'm just gonna do what Master says.

[Traveler]

Traveler,

 

I hear your concern.  Maybe there is a danger.  Maybe there is not.

 

Not sure I understand what you are saying.  I interpret this as that you do not know or have not figured it out.

 

1)      If it is a true gift of God, then it is not something we can develop.  It is a gift.

I do not believe this give a full range of answer to the question - I believe we can enhance our spiritual gifts - this is the essence of magnifying our calling.  What we cannot or should not do is seek gifts or calling.

 

 

2)      If it is a true gift of God, then it is not for our benefit but to benefit others.  (For example: We do not heal ourselves.  We heal others.)  Other gifts may appear to only benefit ourselves.  But if that is all they are used for, then we may (I use this word thoughtfully) be held under condemnation.

 

Again I believe your logic to be partial and not really complete.  For example we cannot exclude something as a gift from G-d if we somehow benefit from it.  In addition a great deal of personal healing and benefit comes from the service to others.  It is in my mind a matter of focus - if the focus is self discipline and sacrifice for the benefit of others - there will be great benefits to self - it is the means that we become one with G-d.  There is nothing of benefit to anyone that is achieved without discipline and sacrifice.

 

 

3)      If it is a true gift of God, and we believe it to be innate in ourselves, we are guilty of pride.

 

Agree - and I cannot think of any exception.

 

 

4)      If it is a true gift of God, then it must eventually be used for His purposes –to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal life of man.

 

Orson Scott Card made an interesting statement through his character Ender in one of the eponymous series.

 

We cannot take credit for simply being born with an ability any more than we can take credit for being born with a nose.  But we can take credit for what we choose to do with that ability. 

 

A gift of the Spirit is no different.  How do we use such gifts?  Is it to puff ourselves up?  Or is it to benefit others?  Is it to help bring about the immortality and Eternal life of man?

 

I believe this can be misleading because we do not see the future - we are creatures of the present and our reference to anything in the future is to one degree or another a act of faith.  I take a slightly different view - I do not believe that any spiritual or any other gift can or will come from G-d without some direct connection or relationship to covenant and commandment.  I also believe that covenants and commandments are given through a proctor.  A proctor is either the giver of law (covenant) or their appointed proxy.  According to our LDS doctrine a proctor is a priesthood holder with keys.

 

Jesus talked about many claiming spiritual gifts and that the exercise of such gifts would be in his name.  But he testified that he did not "know" them.  I submit that term translated into the English term "know" is a misinterpretation - It is not a problem of Jesus not knowing - the proper interpretation is that he did not authorize them.  This is the essence between a counterfeit and a genuine - a counterfeit is not authorized - but can be so cleaver that no one outside of the authorization would know that it is a counterfeit.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Traveler

[Guest]

Not sure I understand what you are saying.  I interpret this as that you do not know or have not figured it out.

 

Maybe you don't understand because possibly I don't understand.  Understand?

I thought you were saying that there was a danger in seeking after gifts of the spirit because it could promote pride.  If so, I hear you.  

 

I'm not sure if I agree or not on whether that is a greater potential danger vs the potential spiritual benefits.

 

I believe we can enhance our spiritual gifts 

 

So do I.  But we're getting back to the old "Do we enhance them?  Or does the Lord enhance them as we are obedient?"

 

this is the essence of magnifying our calling.  

 

Ahhm.  No.  I have a different take on "magnifying our calling".  But that is for another day.

 

What we cannot or should not do is seek gifts or calling.

 

We are commanded to "Seek ye earnestly the best gifts".

 

...we cannot exclude something as a gift from G-d if we somehow benefit from it.  In addition a great deal of personal healing and benefit comes from the service to others.  It is in my mind a matter of focus ...

 

I agree. I never said anything to the contrary.  I do not EXCLUDE any benefit to self.  But it is, as you say, a matter of where the focus is.  We must focus any gifts from God on how we can help others and how can we use them to promote the immortality and Eternal life of man.

 

Agree - and I cannot think of any exception.

 

That's two points in a row.  Wow.

 

I believe this can be misleading because we do not see the future - we are creatures of the present and our reference to anything in the future is to one degree or another a act of faith.  I take a slightly different view - I do not believe that any spiritual or any other gift can or will come from G-d without some direct connection or relationship to covenant and commandment.  I also believe that covenants and commandments are given through a proctor.  A proctor is either the giver of law (covenant) or their appointed proxy.  According to our LDS doctrine a proctor is a priesthood holder with keys.

 

I really have no idea what you're disagreeing with here.  I hadn't even said anything that was related to what you seem to be saying here.  So...

 

Jesus talked about many claiming spiritual gifts and that the exercise of such gifts would be in his name.  But he testified that he did not "know" them.  I submit that term translated into the English term "know" is a misinterpretation - It is not a problem of Jesus not knowing - the proper interpretation is that he did not authorize them.  This is the essence between a counterfeit and a genuine - a counterfeit is not authorized - but can be so cleaver that no one outside of the authorization would know that it is a counterfeit.

 

I agree.  I don't know why you seem to be saying this as if it is rebutting anything I said.  I agree.  I never said anything to the contrary.

 

I would believe that an alternate translation of "know" is "acknowledge".  One could argue that is a synonym for "authorize" given the right context.

 

So that's rour points in one post that we agreed on.  I'll take a look out the window to see if the world is coming to an end...

 

...I just exercised tremendous personal restraint.  I was going to put something quite political here.  But I didn't want this to turn into a threadjack. Nor do I want to ruin this rare moment of agreement.  I hope you appreciate my courtesy.

[Anddenex]

I believe we can enhance our spiritual gifts - this is the essence of magnifying our calling.  What we cannot or should not do is seek gifts or calling.

 

In light of this quote, I am more curious regarding the concept of not "seeking" gifts.  The statement appears to contradict scripture and would be more inline with scripture if stated, "What we cannot or should not do is seek gifts or callings."

 

Yes, we should not seek after any calling; however, in light of scripture we are commanded to seek earnestly the best gifts as declared in Doctrine and Covenants 46: 8, "Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given" (emphasis added).

 

It appears, as given by the Lord, that seeking earnestly the best gifts from God are to protect us against deception; although, as with any seeking we must not be over-zealous, which may lead to being deceived.  Evidence provided by President Packer, "Do not be impatient to gain great spiritual knowledge. Let is grow, help it grown, but do not force it or you will open the way to be mislead."

Edited October 24, 2015 by Anddenex

[Vort]

Seeking spiritual gifts is absolutely appropriate. Oliver Cowdery sought the gift of translation, and he was given it. It was taken from him because he did not use it. So we are given gifts, and then don't use them (or misuse them), and they are taken from us. We need to keep seeking them and learn to depend on the Spirit to use them.

 

Seeking gifts is nothing at all like seeking a calling or position. Seeking gifts is trying to get closer to God and become more Godly. In praying, we are seeking spiritual gifts (e.g. revelation, comfort). In reading scriptures, we are seeking spiritual gifts (e.g. revelation, insight, knowledge). In serving others, we are seeking spiritual gifts (e.g. charity, faith, compassion).

[Traveler]

I have done some soul searching - I thought I would start with an experience.  A few years back my work took me to Taiwan.  At first I was not concerned so much about the language - I often travel to foreign countries and have always been able to communicate as some level.  The company I was visiting with also provided an interpreter.  But for my next trip - an interpreter was not provided - but I thought myself somewhat a veteran and had been working with audio recordings to learn the language.  My efforts were primarily intended for attending church - and being able to communicate directly with the saints.

 

I sought sincerely a spiritual gift for my Sabbath worship with an attitude of fasting and prayer.  My church meetings experience was not at all what I was expecting or prepared for.  I am very familiar with LDS church services and I knew what was going on in sacrament meeting - announcements, prayers, singing and talks.  Even knowing the sacrament prayers by heart as well as the melody of the songs but I could not understand even a single syllable of any thing spoken or sung.

 

Undaunted I proceeded to Sunday school class.  Again I saw familiar pictures but had no idea what the lesson was about.  The teacher and several class members met we after the class but I could not converse with them until the teacher spoke to me in broken English and asked how I had enjoyed his class.  Very downhearted but not wanting to display my complete disappointment I admitted feeling the spirit but not deciphering anything from the message.  What was the lesson about I asked.  He responded - the gift of tongues.

 

But the story does not really end here - I attended all three sessions of church for the time I was in Taiwan and was never able to understand a word spoken.  I was thinking that my time at church may have been wasted except for keeping my Sabbath covenant until after having returned home for several weeks when I received a letter from the Relief Society President in the Taiwan ward.  She had tracked me down from the company I was consulting to find me.  The note concerned a spiritually uplifting influence I had on many of the members because I was attending all the meetings - even though I could not speak to anyone except through a translator.  Though I had sought the gift of tongues thinking I could inspire - the L-rd had something else in mind knowing much better the hearts of his saints in Taiwan.

 

And the lesson to me --- we should seek spiritual gifts but not a specific spiritual gift (it is not about us or our agenda) -- just as we should seek and desire to be called to serve (D&C 4) but we should not seek a specific callings or even a specif place to serve.  Rather in the words of a hymn "I will go where you want me to go dear L-rd, I will be what you want me to be."

Edited October 24, 2015 by Traveler

[Vort]

What was the lesson about I asked.  He responded - the gift of tongues.

 

I have to admit, I LOLed at this. (More of a quiet "heh, heh" than a loud guffaw, though.)

[Guest]

Oh! come on, Vort.  You have to admit that was a pretty good post.  I felt a bit of the Spirit as I read it.

[Vort]

Oh, it was a fine post. I wasn't commenting on the quality of the post, only on the irony of the situation.

[spamlds]

I had the gift of tongues come upon me in France as a missionary on a couple of occasions.  One off them, was when I was having a conversation with a professor of theology who taught at a university near Toulouse.  For over an hour, I answered his theological and doctrnal questions at a very high level.  At the end of our meeting, he asked me how long I had been in France.  I answered that I had only been there for two months.  He was amazed.  He asked how much French experience I had had before coming to France and I said that I had two years of high school French and eight weeks at the MTC.  He was astounded and remarked, "I wonder if I've just seen a manifestation of the gift of tongues?"  I testified that it was so.

 

When under the influence of this gift, I did not feel any different than usual.  My ability to express the thoughts in my mind simply flowed naturally, but only in hindsight, was it remarkable.  Two days later, my bicycle broke and and I struggled to communicate with the bike shop mechanic trying to explain that the bearings in the crank of my pedals were shot.  No gift of tongues was given and I was left to struggle with the language according to my own faculties.