Clearing up misconceptions: Galatians1 6-9 VS TBOM

[prisonchaplain]

 

 Good Morning, Prisonchaplain:

 

While I would agree with most of your post--James' conclusion was more basic than many will believe--that is--that faith without works is dead faith:

 

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

²⁴ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

²⁵ Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

²⁶ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

That is the very faith(dead faith) the faith alone claim one is saved through--a faith without works.

 

 

Who is James writing to?  Lost souls trying to find out how they can journey towards salvation?  NO, the writing was for the church--the already-converted.  It is a warning. 

 

Do LDS believe that new converts are not saved? 

[Traveler]

Who is James writing to?  Lost souls trying to find out how they can journey towards salvation?  NO, the writing was for the church--the already-converted.  It is a warning. 

 

Do LDS believe that new converts are not saved? 

I cannot answer for all LDS nor have I been given divine keys to speak officially for the LDS church or G-d.  But I am LDS and I can speak to my own beliefs. 

 

I do not believe that without divine keys we can speak to anyone's individual salvation.  For myself - I believe that through covenant with G-d, anyone, including myself, can be saved.  As to my individual salvation - I am not yet saved from death - I will die.  But I have faith that I will be saved, resurrected from the dead at some future day following my death.  I think those that think they are saved already are most foolish - and their death will prove their false belief that they are saved.

 

I also believe that as a disciple of Christ that my faith in the resurrection will be dead (of no benefit)  if I do not believe in and have enough faith in good works to discipline myself (being a disciple of Christ- since the word disciple means discipline and works).  If I am not doing the good works of Christ - I have no claim to being a disciple of or having faith in Christ.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Traveler

[dberrie2001]

Who is James writing to?  Lost souls trying to find out how they can journey towards salvation?  NO, the writing was for the church--the already-converted.  It is a warning. 

 

Do LDS believe that new converts are not saved? 

The LDS believe one can be in a saved condition here on this earth, through repentance and water baptism.

 

The final decision of whether one will enter into life--according to the testimony of the Savior--will depend on the final judgment:

 

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

That's a judgment according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation.

 

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)

²² And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

 

How do you collate that with a theology that preaches a salvation through a faith without works?

[Guest]

As to my individual salvation - I am not yet saved from death - I will die.  But I have faith that I will be saved, resurrected from the dead at some future day following my death.  I think those that think they are saved already are most foolish - and their death will prove their false belief that they are saved.

 

This brings up a good point about the definitions of "being saved".

 

PC,

 

What do you mean when you say "I am saved"?  Surely you don't mean that you are in heaven currently.  That is what a Mormon means when we are "saved in the Kingdom of Heaven".  It means we have made it to the Celestial Kingdom.  Since we cannot be there in mortality, this would be a false statement.

 

[prisonchaplain]

I have a teaching I give from time to time entitled:  I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.  Perhaps this gets at the issue.

 

1.  I am saved.  My sins are forgiven.  If I die right now I have confidence I will enter heaven.  Like Paul, I expect to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant.  Enter into my kingdom.  It's difficult for me to imagine living my Christian life under a cloud of doubt.  What if I didn't pray enough, do enough, attend enough, read enough scripture, refrain from lazy talk, etc. etc.?  Surely I must resist the devil, and pursue God, but I do so with faith that the Spirit is in me, and God's got my back.

 

1 John 5:13:  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

I am being saved.  I am growing more and more like Christ.  My sanctification is progressive.  I am learning his will and his way, step by step "precept upon precept."

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23a:  May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.

 

3.  I will be saved:  from the wrath to come.

 

Romans 5:9:  Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!


 

[Guest]

#1?  Well, yeah, if you're fixin'-ta-die, I suppose it comes to mind.  But that is not really the focus of our belief system or our worship or practices.

 

#2?  We have that too.  But I'm not sure how many Mormons would call it "I am being saved."  This is supposed to be focus of our actions today as we focus on #3 as our goal.

 

#3 -- Yup.  That goal is what we call "being saved" -- if you consider going to heaven the "being saved from His wrath."

Edited November 25, 2015 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

#1?  Well, yeah, if you're fixin'-ta-die, I suppose it comes to mind.  But that is not really the focus of our belief system or our worship or practices.

 

 

 

 

I wonder about this.  Perhaps not...but are you sure?  Consider your testimony meanings.  I've never been to one, so I admit I'm assuming they are like ours.  People take turns telling what God has done in their lives.  The favorites are often from the new converts.  They are so excited about their new lives, about escaping their old sinful ways, about having more energy, more life, more purpose, and a sense of God's presence.  The newbies sometimes shed tears of joy as they recount how much better life is...now that they are _____. 

 

We'd say "saved."  "Born again."  "Heaven bound." etc.

 

Whatever it is you call it, the "it" is major, is it not?

[Guest]

Testimony meetings are, well, of...varied...practices and observances...ahem.   

 

But as far as classes, conversations, lessons, etc.  We tend to focus on what are we going to do today?  What can we do to be better today and better tomorrow?  What am I doing that is wrong and try to fix it and change myself so I don't do it again?

 

Once in a while we get the fire and brimstone sermons and lessons.  But most of the time it's "We all fall short.  The important thing is that we keep trying."  To me it is not a question of "have I done enough?" because the answer is always "NO".  It is a question of "Am I continuing to try?"

Edited November 25, 2015 by Guest

[dberrie2001]

While you are right, faith alone Christians run their own spectrum. There are even people who are so convinced that "works" are not important that they claim that even trying to be righteous is a work, and that it will condemn you, since you obviously do not have the true faith required to be saved.

We have PC here on the one extreme, your observations on the other.

My own experience with the sola fide types show them running strongly to the "I could kill you, but my faith will still save me" end, but they are not the entire population.

Lehi

 I agree with your assessment--my point being--the faith alone(sola fide) theology is a salvation through a faith without works--regardless of what the variations within membership opinion might be:

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

[NightSG]

Actually If you claim that they are the same then yes I am asking how that is possible. Unless the BOM is simply a translation of the Bible or the writings are quoted from the bible, the BOM would be by all definitions "a different gospel".

 

If that is the case, then prior to them all being compiled in what we now call "The Bible," there were 66 (or 80 if you include the Apocrypha, more or less depending on which other compilations you consider) "different gospels."

 

Remember, Paul had no idea that all this stuff was going to get bound together in a single cover when he was writing to the Galatians.  Every book of the Bible, certainly of the New Testament, must be read with the understanding that it stood alone as a distinct work until centuries after it was written.

Edited November 25, 2015 by NightSG

[dberrie2001]

The person who converts is saved.  No works. 

 

That is just the most incredible postulation--and one the Biblical record won't bear testimony to, IMO:

 

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

⁹ And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

Where do we find the disobedient being saved in the Biblical text?

 

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)

⁷ And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

⁸ In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

⁹ Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[Traveler]

In all my life I have never conversed with anyone that thinks G-d is going to damn them in eternity.  At worse some think that G-d may express some disappointment for some things they have done - but that they believe G-d will at some point forgive them or at least let them suffer some - but that they will not be punished forever by G-d.

 

What I find most interesting is the belief by so many that their religious devotion (call it faith or something else) - will convince G-d that they should be in heaven.  But no one seems to know much about what heaven will be like.

 

Here is my view.

 

If I am in a place where I am protected and taken care of - then I think to be some other place other than heaven.  I believe that heaven is a place of liberty and freedom.  Not to be protected or taken care of but a society of free individuals that protect and take care of those unable to do so themselves.

 

In essence - I do not think of heaven or hell as a place but rather something that is deep within ourselves at our heart or core.  I do not see much difference in being subject and not free be it to G-d or Satan.  To be without agency, liberty and freedom - to have dependence embedded deep into my heart and core with no ability or power to choose for myself - that to me is bondage and the very definition of damnation and hell.

 

Am I saved -- no; I am working towards being free and liberated - freedom to me is salvation.

 

I have learned that the first principle of freedom is discipline which includes sacrifice.  Without discipline and sacrifice I do not believe that even G-d can make someone free.  But he will teach us his discipline and the first discipline with G-d is covenant with him and the second discipline is obedience to his covenant.

 

Jesus has kept his covenant with us and was obedient - I have come to believe that any church or religious group that does not understand covenant and insist that we be obedient to our covenants - has false faith in salvation.  In addition I have not found any other faith that insists that we covenant with someone with the same authority by which John the Baptist established the covenant of baptism with Christ.

 

I have indicated that many worship the Bible because they believe the Bible justifies their faith and beliefs.  My covenants are with chosen and called prophets that are proxy for G-d and his covenants.  I think that to have faith in any other salvation if faith in a counterfeit.  I also believe that many good people like PC will discover that there is a great deal of counterfeit but that G-d has a plan to connected them to the real covenant - if they so desire.

[prisonchaplain]

 

That is just the most incredible postulation--and one the Biblical record won't bear testimony to, IMO:

 

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

⁹ And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

Where do we find the disobedient being saved in the Biblical text?

 

 

Ah, but is not the just-redeemed-by-faith convert not now in the camp of the obedient?  While I would not call repentance a work, doing so is obedience.  Calling on the name of Jesus is obedience.  Giving oneself over to God is obedience.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)

⁷ And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

⁸ In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

⁹ Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

We are agreed that those who claim Christ's salvation, but who then live in rebellion and disobedience do not possess true faith.  They are dead.

[dberrie2001]

We are agreed that those who claim Christ's salvation, but who then live in rebellion and disobedience do not possess true faith.  They are dead.

 

Yes, agreed--if the Biblical testimony is true--which I believe it is.

 

But it's always strange to me some believe in being saved independent of works--and then use works as a standard--after the fact of salvation--as a measure of whether one is saved or not.

 

If works had nothing to do with being saved--how can it be a measure to determine whether one is saved or not?

[dberrie2001]

In all my life I have never conversed with anyone that thinks G-d is going to damn them in eternity.

 

The LDS preach a gospel that all those who do not enter into eternal life(exaltation) will be eternally damned.

[prisonchaplain]

 

If works had nothing to do with being saved--how can it be a measure to determine whether one is saved or not?

 

Accomplishment had nothing to do with the 5-year old's enrollment in piano lessons.  Either her parents forced her to (Election), or she wanted to (Free will).  Either way, 15 years later, when she's one of Julliard's best she is most definitely judged on her work.

[prisonchaplain]

This is as good a time as any to bring up the informal conclusions of Professors Robinson (BYU) and Blomberg (Denver Seminary), in their book How Wide the Divide?  Concerning soteriology (the study of salvation) they jointly conclude that there are two main questions--one for each faith tradition.

 

1.  LDS ask Evangelicals:  Have you so emphasized grace that you (intentionally or not) deny the necessity of the transformed life?  This error would lead to the dead faith of James' letter.

 

2.  Evangelicals to LDS:  Have you so emphasized the role of human good works in the process of salvation that you (intentionally or not) end up denying the unique role of God's grace gained only by faith?  This error would lead to judgment for attempting to merit God's favor.

 

The authors do not believe that our differing vantage points have to lead to dead faith or judgment.  These are potential pitfalls.  This was one of those core doctrinal differences in which the authors believed we are much closer than most perceive--especially between Arminian (my branch) Evangelicals and LDS.

Edited November 26, 2015 by prisonchaplain

[Guest]

This is as good a time as any to bring up the informal conclusions of Professors Robinson (BYU) and Blomberg (Denver Seminary), in their book How Wide the Divide?  Concerning soteriology (the study of salvation) they jointly conclude that there are two main questions--one for each faith tradition.

 

1.  LDS ask Evangelicals:  Have you so emphasized salvation that you (intentionally or not) deny the necessity of the transformed life?  This error would lead to the dead faith of James' letter.

 

2.  Evangelicals to LDS:  Have you so emphasized the role of human good works in the process of salvation that you (intentionally or not) end up denying the unique role of God's grace gained only by faith?  This error would lead to judgment for attempting to merit God's favor.

 

The authors do not believe that our differing vantage points have to lead to dead faith or judgment.  These are potential pitfalls.  This was one of those core doctrinal differences in which the authors believed we are much closer than most perceive--especially between Arminian (my branch) Evangelicals and LDS.

 

I take it that you didn't get this out of what I had posted several pages ago?  This is pretty much what I meant when I said that the difference is fairly minor.

 

HOWEVER, I would argue that MANY evangelicals (esp. the once saved, always saved variety) wouldn't even blink at the first question.  To them, the transformation was that they accepted Christ.  To change themselves, their motives, choices, lives, etc. is not only immaterial, but impossible.  This is not an assumption, it is what I've heard them say.

[prisonchaplain]

HOWEVER, I would argue that MANY evangelicals (esp. the once saved, always saved variety) wouldn't even blink at the first question.  To them, the transformation was that they accepted Christ.  To change themselves, their motives, choices, lives, etc. is not only immaterial, but impossible.  This is not an assumption, it is what I've heard them say.

 

Part of why they speak that way is some of them do believe that way.  This line of thinking gets called "worm theology."  I'm depraved, without merit, and so can only rely on God's grace for my salvation and for any modicum of good that I may accomplish in this miserable life--oh worm that I am.

 

Another part, though, is that they are discussing grace with an LDS member.  There is a strong bias amongst Evangelicals that LDS believe they are saved by works.  The focus on grace is laser-focused, because they are convinced you don't get it.  Inevitably then, they sound like what Prof. Robinson warned about--that they are denying the necessity of the transformed life.  In other words, they may not quite mean it to the extent they say, but may be over-emphasizing grace in hopes that you'll get it.  The problem is that their tactic feeds right into the mischaracterization that Evangelicals believe we can live for the devil, since we have grace, and it doesn't matter what we do, since works are meaningless.

[Maureen]

The LDS preach a gospel that all those who do not enter into eternal life(exaltation) will be eternally damned.

 

They do?

 

M.

[Guest]

Maureen,

 

Again, definitions, definitions.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

Part of why they speak that way is some of them do believe that way...

 

This should go into someone's sig...

[prisonchaplain]

Take it if you want...it's public domain.

[dberrie2001]

They do?

 

M.

Well, yes. Anything less than exaltation is damnation.

 

Damnation--https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/damnation?lang=eng

 

The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and his glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent.

[Guest]

I wouldn't classify that as doctrine so much as personal interpretation, really.