Eternal Damnation In Hellfire

[prisonchaplain]

Most know that evangelicals believe in a literal, eternal, hell for those who reject reconciliation with God. It's a hard teaching.

LDS theology largely mitigates the belief, by asserting that everyone will have a just chance to hear the gospel--even if in the life to come. "Largely," but not completely. Though smaller, the teaching of three kingdoms also includes a place called hell. Is it eternal? Is it literal--physical? If so, and even one human soul spends eternity there, how do you reconcile this with the loving Heavenly Father we all prefer to contemplate?

[Elphaba]

Most know that evangelicals believe in a literal, eternal, hell for those who reject reconciliation with God. It's a hard teaching.

LDS theology largely mitigates the belief, by asserting that everyone will have a just chance to hear the gospel--even if in the life to come. "Largely," but not completely. Though smaller, the teaching of three kingdoms also includes a place called hell. Is it eternal? Is it literal--physical? If so, and even one human soul spends eternity there, how do you reconcile this with the loving Heavenly Father we all prefer to contemplate?

That is a very good question as apparently I am headed there myself!

Elphaba

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

Most know that evangelicals believe in a literal, eternal, hell for those who reject reconciliation with God. It's a hard teaching.

LDS theology largely mitigates the belief, by asserting that everyone will have a just chance to hear the gospel--even if in the life to come. "Largely," but not completely. Though smaller, the teaching of three kingdoms also includes a place called hell. Is it eternal? Is it literal--physical? If so, and even one human soul spends eternity there, how do you reconcile this with the loving Heavenly Father we all prefer to contemplate?

That is a very good question as apparently I am headed there myself!

Elphaba Maybe you are just headed for the Telestial Kingdom...that is not Hell...it will be glorious!! You may even love it there!! Or, you may enter a personal Hell of regret when you realize that the Celestial was REAL and is now unattainable....

[CrimsonKairos]

D&C 19 explains that even the phrase "endless punishment" or "eternal damnation" doesn't mean punishment with no end. God uses those stern terms to work upon our hearts and move us to repentance. I don't believe anyone will be be punished without end, excepting the sons of perdition.

[john doe]

I don't picture as a place, rather, more likely a state of mind. To me, hell is when you realize what could have been if you hadn't been so selfishly doing what you wanted to do instead of doing what God and Jesus wanted you to do. The knowledge that we knew how to live and chose not to, and are now suffering the consequences, such as not being in the presence of our Father, is hell. You may be placed in the Telestial Kingdom, which will be a glorious place, but you will be in your own personal hell because you could have had so much more.

[pam]

I don't picture as a place, rather, more likely a state of mind. To me, hell is when you realize what could have been if you hadn't been so selfishly doing what you wanted to do instead of doing what God and Jesus wanted you to do. The knowledge that we knew how to live and chose not to, and are now suffering the consequences, such as not being in the presence of our Father, is hell. You may be placed in the Telestial Kingdom, which will be a glorious place, but you will be in your own personal hell because you could have had so much more.

My understanding exactly.

[Guest Yediyd]

D&C 19 explains that even the phrase "endless punishment" or "eternal damnation" doesn't mean punishment with no end. God uses those stern terms to work upon our hearts and move us to repentance. I don't believe anyone will be be punished without end, excepting the sons of perdition.

I agree with this, there is a whole thread about this in the MADB boards...I read the whole thread and was enthralled by it!!! I did not understand that passage untill I read that thread...This is what I love about that passage...there is always hope...even David, after he murdered Uriah the Hittite...said that G-d would not leave his soul in Hell. He will go to Hell for that murder, there is no doubt, but he will not stay there!!!!

I don't picture as a place, rather, more likely a state of mind. To me, hell is when you realize what could have been if you hadn't been so selfishly doing what you wanted to do instead of doing what God and Jesus wanted you to do. The knowledge that we knew how to live and chose not to, and are now suffering the consequences, such as not being in the presence of our Father, is hell. You may be placed in the Telestial Kingdom, which will be a glorious place, but you will be in your own personal hell because you could have had so much more.

Spot on, JD!!!!!!

[prisonchaplain]

I don't believe anyone will be be punished without end, excepting the sons of perdition.

Then, I encourage you to reconsider my query. Some argue that if even one human soul must suffer torment for all eternity, then God is cruel. I disagree...but it is easy to see why people struggle with this. IF you believe that the sons of perdition will indeed suffer physical torment for all eternity, how have you reconciled that with your understanding of a loving God?

[pam]

<div class='quotemain'>

I don't believe anyone will be be punished without end, excepting the sons of perdition.

Then, I encourage you to reconsider my query. Some argue that if even one human soul must suffer torment for all eternity, then God is cruel. I disagree...but it is easy to see why people struggle with this. IF you believe that the sons of perdition will indeed suffer physical torment for all eternity, how have you reconciled that with your understanding of a loving God?

I would not find God cruel in this matter. As usual I have found some interesting reading from lds.org

The Hell That Has No End

The three degrees of glory provide eternal homes for the vast majority of God’s children who merited earth life. There is a fourth destination, however, for those “comparatively few” who cannot abide even a telestial glory. The Lord explains that the destiny of the sons of perdition is a kingdom without glory (see D&C 88:24), and “the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows,” only those “ordained unto this condemnation” (see D&C 76:43–49). These are they who “cannot repent.” They “sin against the Holy Ghost” and “put Christ to open shame.” (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 1:47–49.)

“All who partake of this, the greatest of sins, sell themselves as did Cain to Lucifer. They learn to hate the truth with an eternal hatred, and they learn to love wickedness. They reach a condition where they cannot repent. The spirit of murder fills their hearts and they would, if they had the power, crucify our Lord again, which they virtually do by fighting his work and seeking to destroy it and his prophets. …

“Before a man can sink to this bitterness of soul, he must first know and understand the truth with a clearness of vision wherein there is no doubt. The Change of heart does not come all at once, but is due to transgression in some form, which continues to lurk in the soul without repentance, until the Holy Ghost withdraws, and then that man is left to spiritual darkness. Sin begets sin; the darkness grows until the love of truth turns to hatred, and the love of God is overcome by the wicked desire to destroy all that is just and true. In this way Christ is put to open shame, and blasphemy exalted.

“How fortunate it is that in the mercy of God there will be comparatively few who will partake of this awful misery and eternal darkness

[CrimsonKairos]

If God and Jesus appeared to a guy and the guy knew beyond a doubt who God and Jesus were, and if this same guy denied God and Jesus existed while looking right at them...that's a son of perdition.

Nothing can be done with someone as hard-hearted or wicked as that. If God wants to send them to a place where they will be punished literally forever (the kind that provokes wailing and gnashing of teeth), who am I to argue? It doesn't mean God isn't kind. It means those sons of perdition are idiots and beyond saving since they won't believe in Christ even when they see him.

Their fate doesn't reflect on God, it reflects on them.

update: pam, I was typing this while you typed your above post, but you finished first so if it seems like I'm just regurgitating what you said, it's because I hadn't read your comments when I posted mine. But hey, in the mouth of two or three witnesses, right?

[prisonchaplain]

CK, I do not argue with any of what you said. The sons of perdition, however, may be a relatively large group. The rejectors of God do so, not out of ignorance, but out of pride and hubris. Those qualities are in ample supply amongst the inhabitants of earth.

[john doe]

CK, I do not argue with any of what you said. The sons of perdition, however, may be a relatively large group. The rejectors of God do so, not out of ignorance, but out of pride and hubris. Those qualities are in ample supply amongst the inhabitants of earth.

And people thought I was being hard on the Elph.

[CrimsonKairos]

Yeah PC, but most of us on earth haven't stood in God and Christ's presence!

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>

CK, I do not argue with any of what you said. The sons of perdition, however, may be a relatively large group. The rejectors of God do so, not out of ignorance, but out of pride and hubris. Those qualities are in ample supply amongst the inhabitants of earth.

And people thought I was being hard on the Elph.I don't think anyone else thought you were being hard on me. Just me! :)

So I have a question. And before I ask it, please try and understand my intentions are not sinister. My queries are sincere as I really am trying to understand this idea of hell. And I have chosen your words because you have written them succinctly. So I am not accosting you.

On the other thread you wrote to me;

The thing about eventually acknowledging Jesus, in my mind is this: if you had your fair chance to obtain knowledge of Him and, because of your pride or arrogance, or whatever, decided He didn't exist, it will be much harder for you to show your acceptance if you eventually do accept Him in the afterlife. (emphasis mine)

How is this substantively different from what PC wrote?

Elphaba

Edit: It occurs to me that John may not want to dialogue with me. If he doesn't, would anyone else care to answer this question for me, as I really am interested in the answer. Thanks. E.

[Guest Yediyd]

I can't speak for john...but the only difference I see in PC's statement and John's (or OUR belief) is in the numbers. Pc believes that anyone who rejects Christ will burn in a literal Hell...we believe that many will end up in a teletial glory...some....the very worst of the worst....the ones who have all the PROOF in the WORLD staring in their face and talking to them, and STILL deny him, will end up as son's of perdition. Judas, Hitler, Cain, Saddam Insane...these types of people. I don't believe you fit into that fourth category, EL...but it is not for me to judge...G-d is a righteous judge, you will go where you belong, and he will place you there with love. Even the son's of perdition, Jesus loves and died for....When G-d places them in outer darkness...he will morn, he will be sad...Jesus wept at the grave of Lazarus....he did not cry for Lazarus...he was about to raise him from the dead...Jesus cried for those fools who chose to look at the door to Heaven and turn the other way.

[prisonchaplain]

LDS also insist that everyone will have an absolutely clearcut, compelling presentation of the gospel--if not here, in the life to come. evangelicals will vary from saying God predestines some to hell, to saying that we all deserve hell, so those who do not hear, will go there regardless, to saying (like me) that God is surely just, and that everyone will be judged based upon how they responded to what God revealed to them. Evangelicals categorically deny any hope of a post mortem opportunity to repent.

[Elphaba]

LDS also insist that everyone will have an absolutely clearcut, compelling presentation of the gospel--if not here, in the life to come. evangelicals will vary from saying God predestines some to hell, to saying that we all deserve hell, so those who do not hear, will go there regardless, to saying (like me) that God is surely just, and that everyone will be judged based upon how they responded to what God revealed to them. Evangelicals categorically deny any hope of a post mortem opportunity to repent.

So, PC, according to the Evangelicals, someone like me, who cannot believe because it just does not make sense to me, would then be doomed to hell?

Like I said, I did not choose not to believe. I can't believe. Just like I cannot make myself believe in Santa Claus, I cannot make myself believe in God.

Please don't think I'm badgering you. I'm really interested in the answer.

Thanks,

Elphaba

[Guest Yediyd]

LDS also insist that everyone will have an absolutely clearcut, compelling presentation of the gospel--if not here, in the life to come. evangelicals will vary from saying God predestines some to hell, to saying that we all deserve hell, so those who do not hear, will go there regardless, to saying (like me) that God is surely just, and that everyone will be judged based upon how they responded to what God revealed to them. Evangelicals categorically deny any hope of a post mortem opportunity to repent.

Yeah...I gotta admit...I'm kind of a hybrid Mormon, myself!!! I still have some of that indoctrination in me yet....I struggle with confused images of Hell and eternity, But I turned to LDS because I would like to believe in a G-d who forgives until 70x7...and gives ALL people a chance to repent, regardless of whether they did so in life or not...

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'> LDS also insist that everyone will have an absolutely clearcut, compelling presentation of the gospel--if not here, in the life to come. evangelicals will vary from saying God predestines some to hell, to saying that we all deserve hell, so those who do not hear, will go there regardless, to saying (like me) that God is surely just, and that everyone will be judged based upon how they responded to what God revealed to them. Evangelicals categorically deny any hope of a post mortem opportunity to repent.

Yeah...I gotta admit...I'm kind of a hybrid Mormon, myself!!! I still have some of that indoctrination in me yet....I struggle with confused images of Hell and eternity, But I turned to LDS because I would like to believe in a G-d who forgives until 70x7...and gives ALL people a chance to repent, regardless of whether they did so in life or not...

I personally think everyone who has Christ in their heart will recognise him when they see him - there is the lady in the New Testament who was a pagan, had presumably had no teaching in her life of who Christ was but recognised him when she saw him. She was happy to have the crumbs of faith, humble and just trusted in him. Many of Israel who had been taught about the Messiah, did not know him. I personally do not believe that many Latter Day Saints will make it to the Celestial Kingdom, but suspect for us anything that isn't that will be 'hell' I personally think hell is not reaching your potential.

CS Lewis wrote a couple of fantastic pieces about hell - The Great Divorce was one (bus journey through the levels of hell), and there was the scene at the end of the Last Battle (Narnia book) where the Dwarves still think they are in the stable in the dark eating turnips, when actually they are in heaven surrounded by a great feast that Aslan has provided. Nobody can convince them otherwise, the Dwarves were for the Dwarves and noone else. Yet the Callorman who had served Tash (Satan) faithfully all his life and had done good, immeidatly recognised Aslan, those that had pretented to serve Aslan but done ill were carried off by Tash. I have always had a strong feeling that that scene was inspired by God, The phrase no Good can be done in Tash's name and no Ill can be done in Aslan's name sticks in my head. Can't help but think we will be surprised who the Lord places were - I just trust I will go where he wants me and learn to love where I am. A classic example would be CS Lewis - when you read his works you know he knows God intimately, yet I believe he dismissed us as Latter Day Saints because we were teetotallers and had a restrictive lifestyle. Of course when he see's Christ he will recognise him. I have a Hindu and an Atheist friend I know know Christ very well, you can see He knows them and I have a strong feeling He will claim them as His own and they will know Him.

The Celestial Kingdom would be a very poor place without people like that - its like I say to born again Christians often if my Father in Law is in hell I would rather party with him there than spend eternity with such a callous God who disgards decent human beings in favour of those obnoxious people that think its their place to be my judge and put me in hell. I don't know the idea that God flings people on the scrapheap when they have done everything in their power to know him doesn't sit well with the God I know and communicate with on a daily basis.

Charley

[Elphaba]

I don't know the idea that God flings people on the scrapheap when they have done everything in their power to know him doesn't sit well with the God I know and communicate with on a daily basis.

Charley,

That is one of the kindest, and most profound, posts on this thread. Without going into any detail, I've tried to allude to the fact that I have done everything in my power to know him, but it has not worked. Rather than accept that, people on this board have preached at me, and claimed my disbelief is because of my pride and arrogance, when in fact my heart was broken into a million pieces.

Again, my disbelief was not a choice. It was a journey, and ultimately is something I cannot choose to change. It just is. And if, in the end, it turns out there is a Mormon god, I cannot imagine he would punish me for it.

Elphaba

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>I don't know the idea that God flings people on the scrapheap when they have done everything in their power to know him doesn't sit well with the God I know and communicate with on a daily basis.

Charley,

That is one of the kindest, and most profound, posts on this thread. Without going into any detail, I've tried to allude to the fact that I have done everything in my power to know him, but it has not worked. Rather than accept that, people on this board have preached at me, and claimed my disbelief is because of my pride and arrogance, when in fact my heart was broken into a million pieces.

Again, my disbelief was not a choice. It was a journey, and ultimately is something I cannot choose to change. It just is. And if, in the end, it turns out there is a Mormon god, I cannot imagine he would punish me for it.

Elphaba

Not everyone preached AT you, El...and I happen to agree with everything that Gabelma just said...I also love CS Lewis!!! Have you ever read the Screwtape Letters? I have gotten such a profound understanding of the "enemy" by reading them!!! I too...believe that the Chronicles of Narnia were divinely inspired.

Also...my siblings favorite thing to say is: I would rather go to Hell and be with honest people than to Heaven for an eternity with a bunch of Hippocrates!!!! (We saw a lot of hypocrisy growing up with an alcoholic Southern Baptist preacher father)

[Elphaba]

Not everyone preached AT you, El...

I didn't say everyone, Yed.

Elphie

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'> Not everyone preached AT you, El...

I didn't say everyone, Yed.

Elphie

You are right, you didn't...just wanted that clarified...I have no intention of judging ANYBODY...as we have discussed in the past...I am in no place to throw any stones...in ANY direction!!!

Well...have you ever read The Screwtape Letters? I HIGHLY recommend them!!!

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'>I don't know the idea that God flings people on the scrapheap when they have done everything in their power to know him doesn't sit well with the God I know and communicate with on a daily basis.

Charley,

That is one of the kindest, and most profound, posts on this thread. Without going into any detail, I've tried to allude to the fact that I have done everything in my power to know him, but it has not worked. Rather than accept that, people on this board have preached at me, and claimed my disbelief is because of my pride and arrogance, when in fact my heart was broken into a million pieces.

Again, my disbelief was not a choice. It was a journey, and ultimately is something I cannot choose to change. It just is. And if, in the end, it turns out there is a Mormon god, I cannot imagine he would punish me for it.

Elphaba

I believe you - I know when my illness is at its height I don't feel God the same, it is a huge battle to stay connected. You have had many more trials with the Gospel than I have had, personally I find it amazing that you are not a screaming anti Mormon (hate the term but not sure what else to use), many in your position allow hatred to eat them up. I know through blessings when other church members would judge me to be heading straight to outer darkness The Lord has said he is proud of me, and that I am doing the best can with what he has given me, even when I am not Temple Worthy

I am not the Lord or even your Bishop - I can't determine your worthiness I certainly cannot determine how well you are doing with what the Lord has given you. That is between the Lord and You. Personally I believe whatever you call HIM the same God answers every prayer and guides every one that lets him. Even someone that doesn't beleive in him has instincts and can be guided

I have a confession though the Celestial Kingdom is not my goal - my goal is to be right with My God, and to reach my potential. I do not know yet what my potential is - the Lord does so I need to let him guide me. Beyond that I don't want to be in the Celestial Kingdom if it is above my abilities - however I am in a catch 22 as I know my husband has such a strong amazing spirit (as long as he isn't in Nicompoop mode) - and I know if he doesn't make he will regret it.

-Charley

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'> Not everyone preached AT you, El...

I didn't say everyone, Yed.

Elphie

You are right, you didn't...just wanted that clarified...I have no intention of judging ANYBODY...as we have discussed in the past...I am in no place to throw any stones...in ANY direction!!!

Well...have you ever read The Screwtape Letters? I HIGHLY recommend them!!!

They are very funny - my favourite though is Pilgrims Regress it describes CS Lewis' own battles he spent his life searching. I also love The Mars Trilogy - Perelandra the middle book is brilliant from an LDS point ofview as it describes a world where a fall didn't happen. I cannot believe that CS Lewis will not be in the Celestial Kingdom.

-Charley

[prisonchaplain]

So, PC, according to the Evangelicals, someone like me, who cannot believe because it just does not make sense to me, would then be doomed to hell? Like I said, I did not choose not to believe. I can't believe. Just like I cannot make myself believe in Santa Claus, I cannot make myself believe in God. Please don't think I'm badgering you. I'm really interested in the answer.

Thanks,

Elphaba

There is a common theme throughout the Abrahamic religions, including LDS: Those who seek God with a sincere heart will find Him. We find this promise in the OT, the NT, and the BoM. I would guess that it is in the Qur'an, as well. Beyond this, we have the passage in Romans 1 that declares humanity to be without excuse, since God has revealed himself through nature.

So, the dilemma is this: Is there really God? If so, is He good and just? If so, and if He promises to make himself known to those that seek Him, then we conclude that hell is a place of justice.

If you appear before God and say, "I would have gladly believed, but I could not." His answer will be one of pure justice and mercy. However, it will also be one that pierces the heart.

You do not have to justify yourself before any person of faith. We simply remain convinced that God is there to be found, and when you do see him, you will know that He has always been oh so close.