Eternal Damnation In Hellfire

[Adomini22]

Amen, PC. well said.

[prisonchaplain]

The Celestial Kingdom would be a very poor place without people like that - its like I say to born again Christians often if my Father in Law is in hell I would rather party with him there than spend eternity with such a callous God who disgards decent human beings in favour of those obnoxious people that think its their place to be my judge and put me in hell. I don't know the idea that God flings people on the scrapheap when they have done everything in their power to know him doesn't sit well with the God I know and communicate with on a daily basis.

Charley

This thinking is seductive, but ultimately unsustainable, imho. God is God. He is good and just. Come the day of Judgement, there will be no objection, second-guessing, or any hint that God has not exercised a perfect mix of justice and mercy.

If God's Son says, "You get to my Father and his kingdom through me," then that is how it is.

I am certain there will be some obnoxious, allegedly born-again Christians who will be told that their faith was dead, and that Jesus never knew them. Likewise, there will surely be some surprise entries into the Kingdom. Nevertheless, there will be no doubts.

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'>

The Celestial Kingdom would be a very poor place without people like that - its like I say to born again Christians often if my Father in Law is in hell I would rather party with him there than spend eternity with such a callous God who disgards decent human beings in favour of those obnoxious people that think its their place to be my judge and put me in hell. I don't know the idea that God flings people on the scrapheap when they have done everything in their power to know him doesn't sit well with the God I know and communicate with on a daily basis.

Charley

This thinking is seductive, but ultimately unsustainable, imho. God is God. He is good and just. Come the day of Judgement, there will be no objection, second-guessing, or any hint that God has not exercised a perfect mix of justice and mercy.

If God's Son says, "You get to my Father and his kingdom through me," then that is how it is.

I am certain there will be some obnoxious, allegedly born-again Christians who will be told that their faith was dead, and that Jesus never knew them. Likewise, there will surely be some surprise entries into the Kingdom. Nevertheless, there will be no doubts.

Ultimately have read a lot and prayed deeply, spoken to people of many faiths its whatI believe to be true. What I think we do agree on it is not for either of us to second guess the Lord and decide where anyone is going including ourselves - its His decision to make - Charley

[Iggy]

Ultimately have read a lot and prayed deeply, spoken to people of many faiths its whatI believe to be true. What I think we do agree on it is not for either of us to second guess the Lord and decide where anyone is going including ourselves - its His decision to make - Charley

Amen!

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Ultimately have read a lot and prayed deeply, spoken to people of many faiths its whatI believe to be true. What I think we do agree on it is not for either of us to second guess the Lord and decide where anyone is going including ourselves - its His decision to make - Charley

Amen!

And amen.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>LDS also insist that everyone will have an absolutely clearcut, compelling presentation of the gospel--if not here, in the life to come. evangelicals will vary from saying God predestines some to hell, to saying that we all deserve hell, so those who do not hear, will go there regardless, to saying (like me) that God is surely just, and that everyone will be judged based upon how they responded to what God revealed to them. Evangelicals categorically deny any hope of a post mortem opportunity to repent.

So, PC, according to the Evangelicals, someone like me, who cannot believe because it just does not make sense to me, would then be doomed to hell?

Like I said, I did not choose not to believe. I can't believe. Just like I cannot make myself believe in Santa Claus, I cannot make myself believe in God.

Please don't think I'm badgering you. I'm really interested in the answer.

Thanks,

Elphaba

Some years ago I was debating publicly with the head of the Utah chapter of atheists. I consider Chris a good friend so these were not harsh debates. He had much the same attitude of Elphaba. Sometimes I am a little slow but finely I asked him to describe the G-d in which he does not believe. When he finely was able to put to words that described what he thought defined G-d, I gave up the debate with the statement that I do not believe any such being could possibly exist.

The problem with such thinking is that because we are empirical beings our references to G-d are either without empirical basis or ambiguous. What I have learned is that those, like Elphaba, that have difficulty dealing with the concepts of G-d are most likely dealing with poor concepts that lack foundational empirical rhetoric reference. Many things, including things in science (such as electrons) cannot be seen directly and we must learn to observe and know of such thing through their effects on things we can quantify.

The Traveler

[Adomini22]

Traveler, good answer...even though it was hard to understand in the words you used. (no offense). Um........ I think belief is partly a choice, and that is solely based upon my experience.

[Traveler]

Most know that evangelicals believe in a literal, eternal, hell for those who reject reconciliation with God. It's a hard teaching.

LDS theology largely mitigates the belief, by asserting that everyone will have a just chance to hear the gospel--even if in the life to come. "Largely," but not completely. Though smaller, the teaching of three kingdoms also includes a place called hell. Is it eternal? Is it literal--physical? If so, and even one human soul spends eternity there, how do you reconcile this with the loving Heavenly Father we all prefer to contemplate?

There are a number of concepts here that are bleeding together that should not be. The word “hell” in ancient scripture is another term for death. There are in LDS theology two kinds of death.

There is the first death that is the separation of the sole into two parts – the physical and the spiritual.

The second death is a spiritual death which is the separation from G-d and the light, mercy and compassion of G-d.

There is not actual physical pain suffered in death and hell. The pains of hell are symbolic and real spiritually. When man suffers the first death – the death of the physical body, we are divided into one of two spiritual realms. One is called paradise and the other is spirit prison – it is this spirit prison that is most often called hell in ancient scripture. To be honest I sometimes worry about many of my Christian friends that think man will remain in hell when the scriptures tell us that Jesus overcame death and hell for all. Every human will be resurrected by the power of Christ and death and hell will give up every sole – every one and all.

As to the second death which is to live without the light, mercy and compassion of G-d. Again I find many attitudes of my Christian friends quite alarming in implying that G-d would deny his light, mercy and compassion forever to anyone that desires it. I can understand him allowing someone to experience the loss of such a thing for a time so that they can understand and experience the loss. But then to deny his light, mercy and compassion to anyone that would accept it; is to me unthinkable – especially a loving G-d. The only reason that I can think that any being would ever be without the light, mercy and compassion of G-d is because they do not want to be a part of the light, mercy and compassion of G-d.

The Traveler

Traveler, good answer...even though it was hard to understand in the words you used. (no offense). Um........ I think belief is partly a choice, and that is solely based upon my experience.

When someone does not believe something because it does not make sense - it is usuall because the concept in which they believe is flawed. Sometimes people will still believe in something, even though it does not make sense. It is my belief that this is false faith and is almost always wrong - but for many even a flawed belief is all that they have. What I do not understand is why, when they know a belief is flawed, that they will not consider something else. In general I think many people fear new concepts

It is my experience that the more we learn about G-d the more we must accept new concepts.

The Travler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, to clarify...what do believe will be the eternal fate of the sons of perdition?

[CrimsonKairos]

The sons of perdition will forever be outside the influence of the Father (Celestial Kingdom), Son (Terrestrial Kingdom) or the Holy Spirit (Telestial Kingdom). They will have no light, mercy, joy or salvation because they will not reach out and take it.

They would rather deny that God and Christ exist while staring right at them. There is nothing to be done with such insanity but shut them out completely.

[a-train]

Now, speaking of 'those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him' we read:

'And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows; Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again; Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.' (D&C 76:45-48)

So we can say that we know very little of the condemnation of the sons of perdition.

For the most part, 'Hell' is the resting place of the deceased and not the eternal 'lake of fire' as assumed by so many.

'And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.' (Rev. 20:12-14)

Hell will be, as John said 'cast into the lake of fire'. What is the lake of fire? John calls it 'the second death'. It is difficult to reconcile any notion that hell IS the lake of fire with this scripture. Regardless, 'hell' is a somewhat ambiguious term.

It is also written that the sons of perdition 'are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power.' (D&C 76:36-37) So, the second death is the lake of fire, and we really know little about it other than only the sons of perdition have to worry about it.

As for those in the Telestial Kingdom: 'These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work' (D&C 76:106) So, we can see that when the Saviour has finished everything and the kingdom is presented spotless to the Father, there will be none left in hell. All will be resurrected and rewarded for their deeds and live in their proper order and place in the service of God for eternity, save only the sons of perdition who go to a lake of fire described also as outer darkness whereof we know little more than just that. Just an interesting note, I have never read of any daughters of perdition. It has been said that the priesthood is quite involved with the assignation of a man to perdition.

-a-train

[the Ogre]

PC,

For me, I believe what happens to the Sons of Perdition will be what they choose. By earning that title, they have learned with a perfect understanding what G-d is and as such understand what rebellion against him entails. Their final status will be of their own choice (even if it is in the midst of heaven existing like the Dwarves in Narnia).

Agency will play a role in the hereafter just as it does today on the earth.

The great tragedy of these people is that they chose their destiny it is not assigned to them.

Aaron the Ogre

[CrimsonKairos]

Thanks for the reminder, a-train. I really can't say how long the sons of perdition will experience separation from any member of the Godhead's influence or presence, so I retract my claim to know.

And hey, a-train, it's great to see you posting again. The boards just haven't been the same without your insightful posts bro. B)

[Traveler]

Traveler, to clarify...what do believe will be the eternal fate of the sons of perdition?

Just between you and me - I am not sure what a son of perdition is. The title of perdition is a title given to Satan, therefore a son of perdition is someone that worships Satan as G-d (which is a thing Satan has always desired).

I believe there are two possibilities, in essence - freedom or bondage. Freedom comes from self sacrifice and discipline (thus my emphasis on preparing) and bondage comes from self indulgence. As we prepare to live freely with G-d we become disciplined. As we prepare to live in bondage with Satan directing our courses we look to gratify our passions and desires. Sometimes I believe religious peoples get their wires crossed and think heaven is the fulfillment of all possible desires without having to worry about discipline.

I believe that anyone not around G-d would suffer but sometimes I think G-d, out of his love, mercy and compassion; withdraws from those that find it great difficulty to abide with G-d. I really believe that they suffer less being separated from G-d.

I do want to express my belief that anything that G-d does for us (or anyone) is in our best interest and benefit. This is one of my 5 great principles of G-d -> That he will not do anything for anyone at any time that does not have eternal benefit.

A good parent punishes a child for the benefit of that child’s future and for that child’s good. I do not believe G-d is about punishing for the purpose of “getting even”.

PC – If you believe G-d punishes anyone in a manner that does not benefit that individual – I would be most disappointed that you would hold on to that belief and not consider that G-d does indeed have a good plan, even for those that he punishes.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I learn much from threads like this. Traveler will be disappointed by my beliefs on this matter, for I fall within evangelical orthodoxy. Hell is not a prison (temporal), nor a place of rehabilitative discipline. It is a place of punishment--just reward for sin against God.

On the other hand, I can say that I do not believe that belief in hell is a prerequisite for entry into heaven.

[Traveler]

I have never read of any daughters of perdition. It has been said that the priesthood is quite involved with the assignation of a man to perdition.

-a-train

The term "son of" denotes a covenant or if you will, a binding agreement. The title that follows the term "son of" is the title of who holds the covenant. So, for example, the titles of "Son of Adam" and "Daughter of Eve" denotes those that follow in the covenant (discipline) given to Adam and Eve.

It is interesting to me that "Melchizedek" means "King of Righteousness". In the Dead Sea Scrolls there is another title (which since I am traveling and away from my library - I forget) which is the "King of Evil" that implies that there is a priesthood of G-d and a priesthood of Satan as well. Thus the term agency and the choice between good and evil.

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

I learn much from threads like this. Traveler will be disappointed by my beliefs on this matter, for I fall within evangelical orthodoxy. Hell is not a prison (temporal), nor a place of rehabilitative discipline. It is a place of punishment--just reward for sin against God.

On the other hand, I can say that I do not believe that belief in hell is a prerequisite for entry into heaven.

So then, swinging the other way (as we've bared our souls regarding LDS belief -- and you know what we believe anyway -- bare yours), what do you believe about heaven? Is it the fun place the media talks about? Clouds, escalators, harps, no eating . . .

[Elphaba]

What I have learned is that those, like Elphaba, that have difficulty dealing with the concepts of G-d are most likely dealing with poor concepts that lack foundational empirical rhetoric reference.

Could you please explain what you mean by a "foundational empirical rhetoric reference"? That makes no sense to me.

Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

So then, swinging the other way (as we've bared our souls regarding LDS belief -- and you know what we believe anyway -- bare yours), what do you believe about heaven? Is it the fun place the media talks about? Clouds, escalators, harps, no eating . . .

I do not pretend to fully grasp LDS doctrine. Looking back through this string helps me to get a picture, because different poster explain similar idea in different ways. I gain a "working knowledge," perhaps.

The heaven I envision probably is very much like the Celestial Kingdom of your faith. We will have purposeful lives, judging angels, ruling with Christ. There is much that is mysterious, but it will certainly be "busier" in good ways, then the stereotypical angels playing harps on clouds. My sense is that we will have the most overwhelmingly powerful, meaningful, and thrilling "jobs" imaginable--yet always with the assurance that Jesus will back us up, if we sense we are floundering.

The love I will experience will be direct, whole, purely "agape"--and without misunderstandings. So much that causes us stress and burden now, will be gone--freeing us to become...well, yes, godlike. In some ways the difference is subtle. We will always serve Christ, but we will have incredible leadership responsibilities--such that, from our current vantage point, we might indeed appear as gods.

Hope that helps.

[Traveler]

I learn much from threads like this. Traveler will be disappointed by my beliefs on this matter, for I fall within evangelical orthodoxy. Hell is not a prison (temporal), nor a place of rehabilitative discipline. It is a place of punishment--just reward for sin against God.

On the other hand, I can say that I do not believe that belief in hell is a prerequisite for entry into heaven.

You are correct - it is a disapointment and sadness to me that you believe G-d does not have a good plan for those who he punishes. Perhaps some day you can explain the point of such punishment in light of a G-d of love and compassion that is willing to suffer and die himself for the eternal benefit beyond what is a just reward.

BTW - If you believe in the fall - how can we get to heaven without death (which is the meaning of "hell") as given in scripture.

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

. . . vantage point, we might indeed appear as gods.

Indeed, just like the cargo cults sprang up because they thought those who flew by were g-ds. But I wonder, from whose vantage point? Do you surmise the LDS position is that we, after achieving g-dhood, will be equals with G-d?

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>What I have learned is that those, like Elphaba, that have difficulty dealing with the concepts of G-d are most likely dealing with poor concepts that lack foundational empirical rhetoric reference.

Could you please explain what you mean by a "foundational empirical rhetoric reference"? That makes no sense to me.

Elphaba

That which is empirical is that part of existence that we can separately sense, quantify and experience with out senses. Rhetoric is that process of logic by which we can demonstrate proof as a conclusion derived from those points and facts from which we begin and/or accept as true. Mathematics is an example of structured rhetoric.

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

That which is empirical is that part of existence that we can separately sense, quantify and experience with out senses.

Okay, I knew that.

Rhetoric is that process of logic by which we can demonstrate proof as a conclusion derived from those points and facts from which we begin and/or accept as true.

But "rhetoric" is a device, not necessarily a truth, though it could be. Even Aristotle acknowledged that. How does that fit in here?

Mathematics is an example of structured rhetoric.

Could you give me a link that explains this? I'm just not able to wrap my mind around this just yet.

Also, how does "foundational" fit in?

Thanks,

Elphaba

[shanstress70]

So, PC, according to the Evangelicals, someone like me, who cannot believe because it just does not make sense to me, would then be doomed to hell?

Like I said, I did not choose not to believe. I can't believe. Just like I cannot make myself believe in Santa Claus, I cannot make myself believe in God.

I know you didn't ask me, Elph, but I totally believe that you will be right there in Heaven with the rest of us. Unless I'm being totally deceived and you are a horrible, meanspirited person, God will let you know the truth and will not want anything but the best for you. He's not going to send you to Hell because you can't make yourself believe. If it was that important, He would appear to you with a message. I explained my beliefs about this in the Golden Rule thread.

All according to The Church of Shan!

Elphaba

Maybe you are just headed for the Telestial Kingdom...that is not Hell...it will be glorious!! You may even love it there!! Or, you may enter a personal Hell of regret when you realize that the Celestial was REAL and is now unattainable....

If I'm wrong about LDS teachings, look me up, Elph. I'll be happier in the Telestial than I would be in the CK anyway. I don't want lots of kids, I love coffee, I occasionally swear, loud laughter makes me feel good, I don't believe someone has authority over someone else just bc of their gender, and I loved the movie 'Knocked Up' (rated R)... oh, and I won't share my man!

*Please don't anyone get angry about this... it's in good fun.

[Elphaba]

If I'm wrong about LDS teachings, look me up, Elph. I'll be happier in the Telestial than I would be in the CK anyway. I don't want lots of kids, I love coffee, I occasionally swear, loud laughter makes me feel good, I don't believe someone has authority over someone else just bc of their gender, and I loved the movie 'Knocked Up' (rated R)... oh, and I won't share my man!

Please don't anyone get angry about this... it's in good fun.

Hey Shan,

I think you're catchin' on to my drift, you know what I'm sayin' sista!

If it it turns out that Mormonism is true, I do not believe I will be punished for my inability to believe, regardless of what everybody thinks. I just cannot imagine a god that would do that.

So Shan, while I imagine you'll be a kingdom or two ahead of me, perhaps you'll at least deign to take the elevator down to come visit me! After all, sometimes Girls Just Wanna Have Fun!

Love ya,

Elphie

PS This is ridiculous that I have to repeat what Shan said, but please don't get angry about this. It's in good fun.