Eternal Damnation In Hellfire

[Elphaba]

So Elph, regardless of what it is, I do hope you eventually come to have some belief that there is more than just this life.

Hi Shan,

I think it is very likely there is more than just this life. I think the laws of physics predict much more than we can presently observe. For example, the last I heard string theory predicts 11 parallel universes, though this may be an outdated theory by now. If there is more to this life, I believe the answer lies in pure science and the laws of physics.

However, the obvous question is does consciousness survive the death of the body, and I have no answer to that. Frankly, I doubt it, and I have struggled with that. But I've finally reached a point where I am okay with it. I figure there's nothing I can do about it anyway.

In a way, I believe it makes me a better person, because I realize my life is finite, so I must love harder, kinder and richer. After all, once I'm gone that's it. My time is over and I won't have another chance to make up for for those I've wronged.

So, I believe it is possible there is more than what we can observe. I would like to believe consciousness survives. But I'm okay with the fact that it probably doesn't, and believe it makes me a better person in the long run.

Elphaba

[shanstress70]

In a way, I believe it makes me a better person, because I realize my life is finite, so I must love harder, kinder and richer. After all, once I'm gone that's it. My time is over and I won't have another chance to make up for for those I've wronged.

So, I believe it is possible there is more than what we can observe. I would like to believe consciousness survives. But I'm okay with the fact that it probably doesn't, and believe it makes me a better person in the long run.

Elphaba

I live my life like there is no more, just in case. If we believers ARE wrong, I think there are a lot of people who would regret not spending as much quality time as they could have in the here and now.

For example, I know people (closely) who would rather spend time in the temple doing work for the dead, than spending time with their family NOW... they are counting on spending eternity with their families. Nothing more with that belief, but nothing is 100% certain.

I don't know there is more... but I do believe.

[CrimsonKairos]

Shan, I'm not going to pick on you, but the viewpoint you advance has always confused me.

If someone doesn't believe in an afterlife, why would they care what they do or don't do in this life? Why would they care if they didn't spend quality time with their family? If there's no afterlife...if there's no consciousness after death, then they wouldn't be regretting anything since they wouldn't exist. See what I'm saying?

If I held to the existential creed, I'd be doing whatever feels good, as much as possible, wherever possible, because there'd be nothing after death.

[pushka]

Shan, I'm not going to pick on you, but the viewpoint you advance has always confused me.

If someone doesn't believe in an afterlife, why would they care what they do or don't do in this life? Why would they care if they didn't spend quality time with their family? If there's no afterlife...if there's no consciousness after death, then they wouldn't be regretting anything since they wouldn't exist. See what I'm saying?

If I held to the existential creed, I'd be doing whatever feels good, as much as possible, wherever possible, because there'd be nothing after death.

I suppose the best attitude to have, especially if you don't believe in God or the afterlife, is to just be as good a person you can be, so that life will be more pleasant not only for yourself but for those whom you encounter.

[Elphaba]

I don't know there is more... but I do believe.

And I support you in your belief, and only hope it brings you great joy and happiness.

While I've seen a belief in God destroy a very few lives, I've also seen how it is the foundation of a great many people's positive and profound quality of life, and I would never do anything to take that away from them, so much so that I actively support them in their beliefs.

I want to thank those on this thread who have understood my lack of belief in a god. I think you have been especially kind because you are believers, yet you do not condemn me.

Elphaba

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>I don't know there is more... but I do believe.

And I support you in your belief, and only hope it brings you great joy and happiness.

While I've seen a belief in God destroy a very few lives, I've also seen how it is the foundation of a great many people's positive and profound quality of life, and I would never do anything to take that away from them, so much so that I actively support them in their beliefs.

I want to thank those on this thread who have understood my lack of belief in a god. I think you have been especially kind because you are believers, yet you do not condemn me.

Elphaba

What do you mean by foundation? I don't get it.

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

. . . ruling with Christ . . .

You know what PC, I have thought about this one line of yours often in the last two days. What do you mean by "ruling with" if we do not carry much of the authority of A G-d like Chr-st?

Aaron the Ogre

[Elphaba]

What do you mean by foundation? I don't get it.

The Traveler

That's strange, since you wrote about it in post #31, but didn't explain what you meant by it when I specifically asked you.

Elphaba

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>What do you mean by foundation? I don't get it.

The Traveler

That's strange, since you wrote about it in post #31, but didn't explain what you meant by it when I specifically asked you.

Elphaba

See your post #21 under Unrighteous Dominion. G-d is your abstract subject. I just not as good at explaining such things.

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

See your post #21 under Unrighteous Dominion. G-d is your abstract subject. I just not as good at explaining such things. The Traveler

Well, if you can't explain it, I don't know how I'm supposed to understand it. I don’t see how that post of mine refers to anything at all, abstract or not.

Nevertheless, I'm still waiting for an answer to what you meant by “foundational empirical rhetoric reference“ in post #31 of this thread. In that post, you wrote: “What I have learned is that those, like Elphaba, that have difficulty dealing with the concepts of G-d are most likely dealing with poor concepts that lack foundational empirical rhetoric reference.”

Since you applied this concept to me personally, I am very curious to know what it means, but for some reason I can't wrap my brain around it. So, in our conversation, we had the following discussion:

Traveler: That which is empirical is that part of existence that we can separately sense, quantify and experience with out senses.

Elphaba: Okay, I knew that. Later edit: I'm assuming you meant "our" senses.

Traveler: Rhetoric is that process of logic by which we can demonstrate proof as a conclusion derived from those points and facts from which we begin and/or accept as true.

Elphaba: But "rhetoric" is a device, not necessarily a truth, though it could be. Even Aristotle acknowledged that. How does that fit in here?

Traveler: Mathematics is an example of structured rhetoric.

Elphaba: Could you give me a link that explains this? I'm just not able to wrap my mind around this just yet. Also, how does "foundational" fit in?

You never replied, until today when you referred me to another post of mine which has no connection whatsoever. Perhaps I’m confused and you didn’t mean for there to be a connection.

I’m not saying you’re wrong. I just don’t understand what you are saying. Could you please clarify it for me?

Elphaba

[Adomini22]

Elphie..... all these details you guys are discussing are confusing.... lol..... I am interested in what he says.

[shanstress70]

Shan, I'm not going to pick on you, but the viewpoint you advance has always confused me.

If someone doesn't believe in an afterlife, why would they care what they do or don't do in this life? Why would they care if they didn't spend quality time with their family? If there's no afterlife...if there's no consciousness after death, then they wouldn't be regretting anything since they wouldn't exist. See what I'm saying?

If I held to the existential creed, I'd be doing whatever feels good, as much as possible, wherever possible, because there'd be nothing after death.

I don't know firsthand, as I am a believer, but I would imagine they just want to make a difference in the short time they are here. And they just want to enjoy life to the fullest and be happy, since life is short. And just bc someone doesn't believe in God or an after life doesn't mean they don't enjoy spending time with their family.

Aren't you happier and don't you feel better when you are nice to people? Surely you aren't so nice just bc you want to get the Heaven, or bc you think God is watching!

[CrimsonKairos]

Er...no...of...course not...I...like being...good.

Point taken, shan.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

. . . ruling with Christ . . .

You know what PC, I have thought about this one line of yours often in the last two days. What do you mean by "ruling with" if we do not carry much of the authority of A G-d like Chr-st?

Aaron the Ogre

Throughout history monarchs have claimed to rule by the authority of God. We actually will.

So much of the afterlife is spoken of in brief phrases of Scripture. We are allowed glimpses, and we know it will be glorious, but my sense is that we are so bound in this existence, that God has chosen not to be overly descriptive about what is to come.

[a-train]

I think all of us, at whatever level of faith we are, from the athiest to the man walking on water, can look at our own personal worthiness and see areas that need improving. It is only when we willfully ignore or seek to cover those areas that the heavens withdraw and we get no further light and knowledge from Him who dispenses Wisdom.

If I am ever without an answer from God, I can certainly say why. I need to follow better what I do know before I can learn what I don't know. Do not take this to mean that a man with a clear revelation from God must be much more righteous than a man who has no such blessing, or that the man with no such revelation is idle and wicked. Certainly there are those who live closely every letter of the law and yet have little revelation. There are also those who frequently stand in need of repentance, but have great wisdom given them.

What is the difference then? REPENTANCE. Extricate the heart from all wickedness in sincere repentance and therein lies the key to the knowledge of God. It is for this reason that repentance is the most basic precept laid on the foundation of Faith.

-a-train

[Dror]

If God wants to send them to a place where they will be punished literally forever (the kind that provokes wailing and gnashing of teeth), who am I to argue? It doesn't mean God isn't kind. It means those sons of perdition are idiots and beyond saving since they won't believe in Christ even when they see him.

Their fate doesn't reflect on God, it reflects on them.

I would say that God does not want to have people punished forever. Hell, in my opinion, is a state of mind that people put themselves into, and if there is a state of mind from which it is impossible to redeem someone, forever, then that is not God's fault. I cannot say if there is an irredeemable state of mind, or define it if there is one, but maybe it has more to do with what the sinner chooses to do rather than what God chooses. Of course God wants to save everyone, but do we all want to be saved?

What is repentance but a changing of one's mind? And who makes repentance possible?

Dror

[CrimsonKairos]

Precisely what I was trying to articulate.

God cannot save us against our will.

[bunnzy]

The following comes from the 'pearl of great price commentary' by Milton R Hunter and i thought it was particularly applicable to this thread.

"In Moses 5:24 (For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.), the Lord told Cain that "thou shalt be called Perdition." Why should Cain become Perdition? He committed murder, but there have been thousands and thousands of murders committed since his day and God has not pronounced there murderers sons of Perdition. The answer to this question lies in the fact that Cain must have held the Holy Priesthood, because the Pearl of Great Price account infers that the Lord appeared unto him. At least it is certain that he recieved direct communication from the heavens and talked with the Lord. On this subject, Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: "No doubt he held the Priesthood; otherwise his sin could not make of him Perdition."

"When a man receieves the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God, he receives it with an oath and a covenant. The oath and covenant is that God promises him exaltation in his Kingdom, even eternal life in celestial glory, on condition that he magnifies his calling and obeys all the principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the words of the Son of Man:

All that my Father hath shall be given unto him. And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the Priesthood. Therefore, all those who receive the Priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved. But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come - Doctrine and Covenants 84:32-41; 91:3

This modern revelation throws much light upon the gravity of Cains crimes and the reasons for his becmoing Perdition."

there is more to this, but i will type it later, because i have to go...

[Adomini22]

There is a bit more to it, but you are right. Perdition is attained thru knowledge first. Not ignorance.

[Dove]

Sorry Everybody, I feel like I'm butting in by entering into this post so late. There have been a lot of interesting threads and discussions concerning this subject.

My heart goes out to Elphie. I believe her, whatever the reasons/circumstances in her life, she no longer believes in God. Reasons and circumstances only God knows perfectly, Who will show profound mercy and justice when the time comes. I don't know why she doesn't believe anymore, and I don't think that is the point. I do believe that Elphie is worthy of love and support as a human being, and as a person who has written many kind and humble posts on this site. I like Elphie~ and think God likes her too, regardless of whether or not she believes in Him. I strongly believe that He is a God of love, and that He would prefer to love someone into knowing Him rather than another way.

I am experiencing aspects of God in contrast to Traveler's thread about self sacrifice and discipline. I have never been so un-selfsacrificing and undisciplined in all my life. Never have I experienced such a lack of will power about my goals, and this bothers me. I smoke, eat too much, don't work out, etc., and am not as active in the church as I can be. I feel no drive to better myself or accomplish "more." Ironically, I feel God's love and His communication to me more than at any other time in my life. Maybe my heart is different than it used to be. I don't know. I believe I am learning grace, and that, because of Christ's atonement, His love is greater than all my sins combined. I am learning more of His patience, kindness, understanding, all the attributes of charity that are His character. All this in contrast to my total unworthiness and brokeness as a fallen person. I greatly desire to be close to His Spirit and to daily feel His love and light. I also think that my concept of the "right (or righteous) way to be" has greatly differed from what it truly is. It may be that I am slowly learning to trust Him rather than MY concepts of what is right. So much for self sacrifice and discipline. As a friend of mine once said, there are no victims, and life is ultimately a "want to" rather than a "should" or "ought to." I believe our needs and desires in life determine a great deal God's dealings with us. I'm not really worried about hell. So much can happen here. In some ways I believe this present moment is our heaven or hell. That the after life will be just a small step from what we are experiencing right now. As the scriptures say, those who are happy will be happy still, etc. ~Dove

[hightower]

Like I said, I did not choose not to believe. I can't believe. Just like I cannot make myself believe in Santa Claus, I cannot make myself believe in God.

I am not trying to be insensitive to your feelings by any means but what you say here as well as what Elfeba has similarly said really stuck out to me. From my perspective you can believe if you choose to do so. God never will take away your agency and hence there is always a choice to inquire about something. I feel that if you choose to study and pray to know about the LDS doctrine then you will come to some degree of belief about its truthfulness or the lack thereof. I feel if the inquiry is sincere enough and the effort is put in then a belief will develop. Maybe you have been through things that seem to negate all possibility of the truth of the LDS church, I don't know, but the LDS position is that we may know the truth of things through revelation. When you say "I can't believe" it just seems to imply that a choice has been taken away from you which I believe has not. Agency is HUGE in our doctrine, hence the reason for my response. We believe we are here on earth to act and not be acted upon. Although we are imperfect and many times react to what happens to us, agency in our perspective always gives the choice to act and not react. When you say "I can't believe" in my view it falls on the side of being acted upon. Anyway, my intent is not saying you are wrong, I am just attempting to give a response from an LDS perspective of things. There are definately a lot of people who can address this topic better than I can, but I tried to give me .02 cents on belief and agency. I am new here and have enjoyed the posts by all on this forum, including yours and Elfeba's

[Elphaba]

Like I said, I did not choose not to believe. I can't believe. Just like I cannot make myself believe in Santa Claus, I cannot make myself believe in God.

I am not trying to be insensitive to your feelings by any means but what you say here as well as what Elfeba has similarly said really stuck out to me. From my perspective you can believe if you choose to do so. God never will take away your agency and hence there is always a choice to inquire about something.

<snip>

Agency is HUGE in our doctrine, hence the reason for my response. We believe we are here on earth to act and not be acted upon. Although we are imperfect and many times react to what happens to us, agency in our perspective always gives the choice to act and not react. When you say "I can't believe" in my view it falls on the side of being acted upon. Anyway, my intent is not saying you are wrong, I am just attempting to give a response from an LDS perspective of things. There are definately a lot of people who can address this topic better than I can, but I tried to give me .02 cents on belief and agency. I am new here and have enjoyed the posts by all on this forum, including yours and Elfeba's

Hi Hightower,

First I wanted to clarify that I am the one who said: "Like I said, I did not choose not to believe. I can't believe. Just like I cannot make myself believe in Santa Claus, I cannot make myself believe in God." Shanstress was quoting me.

As far as your post in general, you do what so many theists do when I tell them I can't believe. That is, you "Blame the Human."

Because I can't believe, to you it's obvious that I chose not to study or pray enough about LDS doctrine, or I didn't pray enough in general, or I didn't pray the right way, or I didn't pray long enough, or I didn't pray with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, or I didn't pray sincerely enough, or I didn't pray with enough effort, or I didn't pray on my knees, or I didn't pray every waking moment, or I didn't pray at 10, 2 and 8, or I didn't pray in French, or ____________ (you fill in the blank).

Whatever it is, it's my fault. It couldn't be that there simply is no God.

I'm not upset with your comments, because I can tell they were sincerely, and politely, meant to provide perspective, and I believe perspective is always a good thing.

However, I'm going to be blunt. It is extremely presumptuous of you, or anyone else, to assume you know what I have or haven't done to find God. I was a Mormon for 25 years, so I know all about agency, study, prayer, fasting, asking, broken heart contrite spirit, etc. And so much more.

In response, I would like to give you some perspective. Don't assume that because atheists don't believe in a God that many of us didn't want to.

I'm glad you've enjoyed some of my posts.

Elphaba