What does anti mean?

[Byron]

Just as a side note and entirely off topic: I've seen people say this a lot -- as if sincerity in and of itself is a virtue. But sincerity doesn't really define good and bad. Sincerely evil is still sincere. Even Satan is sincere in his desire to destroy us.

 

And herein lies the purpose of judgment. Not of a man by a man but of a man by his works. I.e.) the fig tree that didn't bear fruit.

 

I do not believe what a man says is the same as what he does: I.e.) The good son that said he would not till his fathers land but showed up to do so anyway.

[The Folk Prophet]

I do not believe what a man says is the same as what he does: I.e.) The good son that said he would not till his fathers land but showed up to do so anyway.

 

You just got finished saying earlier in the thread that our words were (as compared to God) powerful tools and possible weapons and we had to be careful with them. Now you're saying that words don't count?

 

Color me confused.

 

What about the son that says he won't till his fathers land but shows up anyway vs the son who says he will and does? Or the son who says he will but then doesn't show up vs the son who says he won't and then doesn't.

 

Words count as actions.

[Anddenex]

4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

 

Yes, here we are warned against judging, but is this really an endorsement to judge once we have removed  our own plank, or simply a warning to not judge each other at all because we are all fallible?

 

How does one remove a mote, that was previously there, if we are not to judge (even after the beam is removed)?  This is one of the greatest passages of compassion and mercy, yet, our compassion and mercy doesn't remove our necessity to call the children of men (the sons and daughters of God) to repentance.

 

The simple concept of "calling a nation to repentance" is an act of judgement. The Lord came to save not to condemn, and he calls upon us to call a nation, a wicked an adulterous nation, to repentance.

 

How might a servant of God cry repentance without judgement?

[The Folk Prophet]

How can one preach to another that they need to stop judging without judging that they're judging in the first place?

Edited November 5, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Byron]

Deuteronomy 1: 16, "Judge righteously"

 

 

Proverbs 31:9, "Judge righteously"

 

Psalms 96:10, "judge the people righteously"

 

Leviticus 19:15, "but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour"

 

 

"Judge" scripturally is not meant to condemn, the notion that "judge" is meant to condemn is false.  When a child does good and we call this act good, a judgement, we haven't condemned.

 

Are we to make "eternal" judgements, no.  Eternal judgements are left to God.  If a man steals, and I call him a thief -- a judgement -- have I condemned?  No.  I have merely called the individual what they are.  If a man murders, and I judge him to be a murderer, have I condemned him?  No.

 

If a woman/man commits adultery and I call them an adulterer, have I condemned? No.  The scriptures, as have been inspired by modern and past prophets are replete with the notion that we are to judge righteously, and to leave eternal judgements to God.

 

Yes the old testament endorses this (and I believe this is still condemnation that was only removed through sacrifice). But are we not set free of this through the blood of Christ?

 

I really love how the Catholics approach this with the saying, 'Love the sinner, hate the sin.'

[Byron]

You just got finished saying earlier in the thread that our words were (as compared to God) powerful tools and possible weapons and we had to be careful with them. Now you're saying that words don't count?

 

Color me confused.

 

What about the son that says he won't till his fathers land but shows up anyway vs the son who says he will and does? Or the son who says he will but then doesn't show up vs the son who says he won't and then doesn't.

 

Words count as actions.

Perhaps sometimes our words do not count in the sense you seem to be aiming at. But I am sure you will agree that our words have the power to hurt or heal. However God's words always count.

 

Question: Do you think God condemned the bad son (who said he would but did not show up) through the son's words or through is actions?

[Byron]

How does one remove a mote, that was previously there, if we are not to judge (even after the beam is removed)?  This is one of the greatest passages of compassion and mercy, yet, our compassion and mercy doesn't remove our necessity to call the children of men (the sons and daughters of God) to repentance.

 

The simple concept of "calling a nation to repentance" is an act of judgement. The Lord came to save not to condemn, and he calls upon us to call a nation, a wicked an adulterous nation, to repentance.

 

How might a servant of God cry repentance without judgement?

 

Correct me if I am wrong but are you equating self examination and correction with judging your fellow man?

[The Folk Prophet]

Question: Do you think God condemned the bad son (who said he would but did not show up) through the son's words or through is actions?

 

The question is non-applicable. The showing up was repentance. When we repent God forgives. Unless, of course, the son just planned on showing up the whole time but lied for some reason, in which case the son would also need to repent of the lie, upon which God would also forgive him. Either way...non-applicable to the discussion.

[Leah]

How can one preach to another that they need to stop judging without judging that they're judging in the first place?

 

 

This exactly.

 

I remain flabbergasted by people in all areas of life who are quick to accuse others of judging when they are in fact engaging in that very act themselves.  Apparently, to some, judging is only "wrong" when someone else has an opinion they disagree with. So they issue the cry "You're judging me!", usually followed by further judgment of their own, accompanied by a side dish of condemnation, just prior to a third course of lecturing how those "judgmental" others must change their evil ways, with some false piety and scripture thrown in for dessert.

 

I don't know if it is due to an inability to comprehend scripture or just part of the it's-not-wrong-if-I-want-to-do-it mentality that is so prevalent these days.

[Anddenex]

 

 

But I have not found any Biblical passages that endorse us to judge* our fellow man.

 

 

Yes the old testament endorses this (and I believe this is still condemnation that was only removed through sacrifice). But are we not set free of this through the blood of Christ?

 

I really love how the Catholics approach this with the saying, 'Love the sinner, hate the sin.'

 

As The Folk Prophet said, "Color me confused."  

 

Initially, you declare the first quoted statement, and then you say in the second separating the Bible into the "Old Testament."  The Bible declares we are to judge righteously.  

 

Are we set free of "judging" through the blood of our Savior?  No. In order to call people to repentance, a person must first judge an action that is contrary to the commandments of God.  This isn't condemnation. 

 

As President Hinckley declared, "We cannot condone the sin, but we love the sinner."  It appears we agree with the Catholics, and the recognition that one is a sinner requires a judgement.  One doesn't need to condemn to judge.  

 

Edit: The Folk Prophet said he never ever used that phrase until now.  Anddenex stand corrected

Edited November 5, 2015 by Anddenex

[Anddenex]

Correct me if I am wrong but are you equating self examination and correction with judging your fellow man?

 

Wrong.

[The Folk Prophet]

As The Folk Prophet often says, "Color me confused."

I think that's the first time I've ever said that in my life.

[Anddenex]

I think that's the first time I've ever said that in my life.

What? I am positive you have used the phrase before :) 

 

(I'll give you some money if you edit your post and say, "Oh ya, I always use that phrase."  Just keep it between you and me)

[Byron]

This exactly.

 

I remain flabbergasted by people in all areas of life who are quick to accuse others of judging when they are in fact engaging in that very act themselves.  Apparently, to some, judging is only "wrong" when someone else has an opinion they disagree with. So they issue the cry "You're judging me!", usually followed by further judgment of their own, accompanied by a side dish of condemnation, just prior to a third course of lecturing how those "judgmental" others must change their evil ways, with some false piety and scripture thrown in for dessert.

 

I don't know if it is due to an inability to comprehend scripture or just part of the it's-not-wrong-if-I-want-to-do-it mentality that is so prevalent these days.

 

The truth is, I am as guilty as the next guy of judging in a condemning way. When Christ died the law was written on our hearts thus we are condemned by our own hearts when we sin. When I condemn my fellow man (or commit any sin), I know I have done it. I then have a need to repent. If I ignore this need I can feel myself sliding down that slippery slope.

 

I looked back on my past posts and see how it can be assumed I may be guilty of what you say here. But this is the reason for my post on this thread. I want to be of service when I warn that the errors of perception can lead to false judgment.

 

Trust me when I say, it is not easy to keep from lashing back at those who have wrongly assumed my guilt. But after resting in God and searching my own heart I find myself grateful for this experience. 

[Leah]

The truth is, I am as guilty as the next guy of judging in a condemning way. When Christ died the law was written on our hearts thus we are condemned by our own hearts when we sin. When I condemn my fellow man (or commit any sin), I know I have done it. I then have a need to repent. If I ignore this need I can feel myself sliding down that slippery slope.

 

I looked back on my past posts and see how it can be assumed I may be guilty of what you say here. But this is the reason for my post on this thread. I want to be of service when I warn that the errors of perception can lead to false judgment.

 

Trust me when I say, it is not easy to keep from lashing back at those who have wrongly assumed my guilt. But after resting in God and searching my own heart I find myself grateful for this experience. 

 

"I want to be of service....".

 

Now that's a strange way of justifying your condemnation of others for the very action you are engaging in yourself.

[Crypto]

Just as a side note and entirely off topic: I've seen people say this a lot -- as if sincerity in and of itself is a virtue. But sincerity doesn't really define good and bad. Sincerely evil is still sincere. Even Satan is sincere in his desire to destroy us.

Let me clarify the implicit in my statement. Sincere in their stated motivations for good. (or in other words sincere in their statement of truly being curious about what they heard and wanting to understand where we are coming from and clear up some misinformation) Hopefully you get what i'm saying...I can always write an entire paragraph trying to narrow down all the loopholes in what i'm attempting to say...but that would be a bit redundant and TL;DR (too long didn't read) for everyone.

[Crypto]

Yes the old testament endorses this (and I believe this is still condemnation that was only removed through sacrifice). But are we not set free of this through the blood of Christ?

 

I really love how the Catholics approach this with the saying, 'Love the sinner, hate the sin.'

Add to that list John 7:24

 

 

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

[Byron]

"I want to be of service....".

 

Now that's a strange way of justifying your condemnation of others for the very action you are engaging in yourself.

 

This is false, just plain false. Leah, I have not seen you speak up in any of my posts yet so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you think I am just here to cause problems. Please read some of my other posts as I hope you will see the spirit in which I have been writing.

 

I have been trying to serve you all in that I am trying to be very careful in the way I talk about our differences. I have switched up my approach a number of times in service to you all. And it seems no matter what I do I am damned if I do and damned if I don't.

 

I would be lying if I said this is not frustrating. Still I serve God first and I will seek his guidance as I continue to try and understand.

[jerome1232]

Fwiw Byron. This is the internet. This is written word. It often comes off harsher and colder than it is intended. It's very easy to read emotions into it based on our own filters and expectations. I find often it is best attempt to clarify with another poster rather than ignore them when they rub a bit harsh on me.

We are also quite a diverse bunch, you'll never please everyone.

Edited November 5, 2015 by jerome1232

[Guest MormonGator]

Good rule of thumb: If a Mormon walked into a Jewish/Catholic forum and asked the questions with the tone and style you did, how would we be treated? 

You can talk about judgments and loving and how mean people are, but sometimes it's the fault of the person asking the questions. If you speak to us in a condescending or rude tone, we have every right to respond back to you. "Turn the other cheek" doesn't mean "we allow people to ask rude and insulting questions and can't respond or defend ourselves". After all, Christ had moments of righteous anger too. This is an LDS forum, meant to build the faith of LDS members. It's also inhabited by truly wonderful, smart and nice people. We have the right to defend our faith. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by MormonGator

[Guest MormonGator]

"I want to be of service....".

 

Now that's a strange way of justifying your condemnation of others for the very action you are engaging in yourself.

 Exactly. When someone says "I want to be of service" what they are really saying it "I'm going to enlighten all you dummies with my brilliance and wit." You are exactly right Leah. 

[Guest MormonGator]

This is false, just plain false. Leah, I have not seen you speak up in any of my posts yet so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you think I am just here to cause problems. Please read some of my other posts as I hope you will see the spirit in which I have been writing.

 

I have been trying to serve you all in that I am trying to be very careful in the way I talk about our differences. I have switched up my approach a number of times in service to you all. And it seems no matter what I do I am damned if I do and damned if I don't.

 

I would be lying if I said this is not frustrating. Still I serve God first and I will seek his guidance as I continue to try and understand.

  You think this is frustrating? Imagine how some of us feel. Leah is exactly right. On the internet, you need to watch your tone very carefully. If you speak to people in what appears to be a condescending way, then you have to right to say "Oh, you guys are being mean" 

 

I see this all time time. People say nasty things about Christianity and then say "Oh, you guys are supposed to turn the cheek! How dare you!" Sorry, doesn't work that way. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by MormonGator

[Crypto]

Good rule of thumb: If a Mormon walked into a Jewish/Catholic forum and asked the questions with the tone and style you did, how would we be treated? 

Oh I frequent at least one alternate religious forum, and you can trust me when I say simply being LDS and posting can get you flamed.

[Guest MormonGator]

Oh I frequent at least one alternate religious forum, and you can trust me when I say simply being LDS and posting can get you flamed.

 Yup, it's a badge of honor. They hate us cause they ain't us 

 

Ironically though, we are all smart people, we all believe our religion is true. Yet we don't spend our times in other forums telling everyone what is wrong with their religion than acting shocked! Shocked! When people defend their faith. Just saying 

Edited November 5, 2015 by MormonGator

[Guest]

Byron,

 

I am actually impressed that you have not only returned, but you seem to be actually engaging this time.  I'd encourage you to stay for a while and talk about other things on this forum to get to know us.  And let us get to know you.