Severely Need Relationship Advice

[FiestySoprano]

Feisty one, thanks for the thoughts, and not being too feisty about standing up for you and others.  :-)  

 

I contemplate two people, hypothetical or real, that undergo the same traumatic and life-altering experiences. Same duration, same severity, same everything.  One comes out of it a stronger tree (Good timber poem), the other one cowering and unwilling to stretch for the light or fight the wind.  Why?  Clearly, it is not the experience that defines us and our responses!  

 

Now, there is real danger is looking to great examples, as we are all too prone to start comparing ourselves, and asking 'why can't I do that', and feed our problem, but there is value too, in seeing what is possible.  Elizabeth Smart. I'm under no delusion she doesn't have major issues.  But the way she has handled herself publicly is the antithesis of locked doors in front of her, and only darkness behind, trapping her in the middle, unable to move.   

 

Viktor Frankl - concentration camp survivor. Man's Search for Meaning.  An amazing example of how we are the only ones responsible for our responses, not the conditions that have befallen us.  

 

What makes one soul grow into good timber, and another soul remain stunted?  I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps the nature of our spirit has much to do with it, and our inherent meekness or stubbornness.  But, as hard as it may be to hear, I do honestly believe, from my own experiences, that a huge factor is not understanding our own part in trapping ourselves into mental anguish.  I too turned to isolation, being an island unto myself, out of the reach of emotional daggers of others, and certainly not connected enough to be rejected by anyone. I didn't turn to food, but to other forms of maladaptive behaviors in efforts to self-soothe.  Those of us raised in homes where abuse occurred, or was allowed to occur, were also not taught how our thoughts can be controlled, our responses can be chosen so that we act, not simply react, and that we are the ultimate determinate of our mental destiny.  It took me a looong time to crack open the door to that understanding, and I've got a long way to go in implementing the understanding that has come to me. But with the light, I can see that it was me, not my circumstances, that determined where I was and what I was doing. 

 

The hardest part is accepting we may be partly at fault, and being ok with that.  It is both the first step to understanding, and simultaneously the first step of change (the not being down on ourselves, but being accepting and even compassionate despite acknowledging our part). 

 

 

    I am going to use myself as an example. In the past I would not have even been able to talk about things, because I felt shamed, and constantly worried that others would be uncomfortable, or reject me. However, one of the stages in my own healing process has been to be more vocal, and I have discovered doing so has helped many others.  I had the kind of childhood people write books about. Narcissistic/ sociopath mother who took pleasure in harming me, and didn't care about what my stepfather, or her boyfriends did. I was beaten constantly, choked, burned, slammed into things, had teeth punched out....on top of being molested, and constantly verbally shredded ( worthless, no one will love, ugly, stupid etc...). When stepfather left, the neglect started..... lack of supervision, lack of food, utilities often off because money went to drugs.....and when I was eleven I had an excruciating medical condition that any adult would have rushed to the emergency room with, but because I was a child.....I had to endure it for months. I knew I was dying and didn't understand anyone was supposed to care.....my attempts to get help resulted in beatings. It got to the point that I could barely walk....and I prayed to not wake-up/ to die....so the pain would end. Screamed for hours and was ignored. I then was assaulted  when I was 14, and kept silent because my mother had blamed and punished me previously, and I knew she would have again.

 

   Did I go through hell with ptsd, and trying to sort it all out? Yes. However, here I am now....talking. For me, I discovered I had to face everything-- fully feel, think, explore etc... and one by one, the flashbacks stopped. I started regaining my life, and myself again, and was stronger.....as well as came out with a stronger testimony as well.  I was extremely bent and weak for a while..... but now I have very deep roots.  If I was able to achieve that, with everything that was stacked against me..... anyone can......just in their own way, time, and methods. So please do not judge people simply based on where they are in their progress. That would essentially be like looking at the initial base sketch of a painting and making a determination that it is rubbish, when in reality it is a master piece in the making.

 

  Elizabeth Smart is amazing, and I cannot express that enough. However, other people should not be compared to her, or expected to come-out the same. There are factors that are not being considered. She went home to a loving, supportive family, and received care. Many survivors suffer the abuse from the hands of their family ( who are supposed to love and protect them), and experience it for years..... in silence. No support, love etc.... You can't expect someone who has had those kind of experiences to instantly pop-up healed and strong on their own. Some people do not have any love or light to "stretch towards".  When I used my analogy about being trapped between locked doors----that was because I did not have anyone, and had never even experienced being touched with love etc.... You equated Elizabeth Smart to that, but she did have previous loving experiences, and went home to a loving family.... so again, you cannot compare, or expect the same results from everyone. There are so many factors that contribute.

 

  Those ( like myself) who were abused at very young ages often have nothing else to refer to. I grew up thinking touch was something that caused harm and pain. People cannot instantly be "normal"..... they typically need to experience positive experiences, love etc... to help break original programming.  And yet, like I mentioned previously....... that sometimes can be hard to find when people simply keep pushing away.

[FiestySoprano]

 

 

The hardest part is accepting we may be partly at fault, and being ok with that.  It is both the first step to understanding, and simultaneously the first step of change (the not being down on ourselves, but being accepting and even compassionate despite acknowledging our part). 

 

I am sorry, this just..... is not correct. I know you went through things as well, but no one is ever at fault for being violated or abused. No one asks for it. Typically, healing is about learning how to NOT take the blame, and how to release the shame etc.....and gain understanding that we were not at fault.  When someone harms another person, it is their crime to carry, and answer for.....not the victim's.

 

  Our society still at times struggles to grasp this. We live in a world where women are typically blamed." Well, what was she wearing? What kind of past history does she have?" .....No, means no. If a man wears a football jersey does that mean he is asking for people to tackle/ body slam him? Of course not.

 

  I was 14. I blamed myself for years because I did not trust my instinct and leave the room when my friend went out.....I thought it was my fault because I was stupid, because I had been wearing a skirt, because I did not fight harder.......however, it was NOT my fault.  Often we blame ourselves because it gives us a sense of control....if we are to blame, it means we can some how correct, or prevent it from happening again. It gives us a target, and something to lash-out at when we do not have the option to do that against the one who truly is to blame.

Edited January 23, 2016 by FiestySoprano

[yjacket]

  Our society still at times struggles to grasp this. We live in a world where women are typically blamed." Well, what was she wearing? What kind of past history does she have?" .....No, means no

 

I kind of think of it like this. I learned a long time ago when driving into very public areas to keep a "clean car", don't leave anything that looks like it might be valuable out in the open. Everything should be put away, no laptops, phones, shopping bags, etc.  By doing so it lessens the chance that my car will be broken into; thieves will see nothing of value and think "move onto the next car".  Now it doesn't always prevent a car from being broken into or stolen-it simply makes it less inviting for criminals to do so.  Is it my fault if I don't keep a clean car and it gets broken into-no absolutely not-the criminal is at fault not me. Could I have done things to have made it less likely-probably. If I'm on the subway at night, I have a grumpy face-it's the "don't mess with me face"-I do it on purpose.

 

It's not about blame or fault, it's about protection and lowering the odds of something bad happening-it may not prevent it-but walking around in a mini-skirt and a deep cut blouse at 2am in a seedy part of town sure ain't gonna help your odds. 

Edited January 23, 2016 by yjacket

[FiestySoprano]

I kind of think of it like this. I learned a long time ago when driving into very public areas to keep a "clean car", don't leave anything that looks like it might be valuable out in the open. Everything should be put away, no laptops, phones, shopping bags, etc.  By doing so it lessens the chance that my car will be broken into; thieves will see nothing of value and think "move onto the next car".  Now it doesn't always prevent a car from being broken into or stolen-it simply makes it less inviting for criminals to do so.  Is it my fault if I don't keep a clean car and it gets broken into-no absolutely not-the criminal is at fault not me. Could I have done things to have made it less likely-probably. If I'm on the subway at night, I have a grumpy face-it's the "don't mess with me face"-I do it on purpose.

 

It's not about blame or fault, it's about protection and lowering the odds of something bad happening-it may not prevent it-but walking around in a mini-skirt and a deep cut blouse at 2am in a seedy part of town sure ain't gonna help your odds. 

 

   No one asks for, or deserves to be violated. It doesn't matter what a person wears, what their history is--- if they say no, it is not something that should be taken. Victims are not to be blamed----ever.  It all comes down to being the fault of BAD people. Bad people who cannot control THEIR impulses, bad people who steal, victimize, hurt others etc.... for selfish gain and pleasures. Having a shopping bag in a car does not mean it is the owner's fault that someone else with no moral compass or respect for others broke into their car and stole from them.

 

   The way you are rationalizing/ looking at things is essentially saying its someone's fault for "inviting" it, like they should have known better-----instead of understanding that the bad person never should have seen it as invitation, or something to steal, take, or violate.... in the first place.  Most people who walk by a car and see a laptop on the backseat do not look at it as an invitation to take it....... it is only bad, selfish people who would see it as something they can steal. Heck, most of us.... even if we find a lost wallet or purse.....do what we can to return it, let alone actively set-out to steal from others. All of this also applies to sexual assault. Just because a woman is by herself somewhere, or showing some skin.... does not mean it is an invitation to be raped. It does not make it her fault. It is still, and always, the fault of the perpetrator  who thinks it is pleasurable to steal/ take, force, hurt etc... against someone's will. A woman walking home at night is not to blame, she is not "asking for it."

 

Sorry, but it is just so backwards to suggest a victim is at all to blame for the lack of control, lack of moral compass, and the desire to harm..... that bad people have. " Well its your fault you got the attention of a bad person".....instead of...."that bad person never should have been bad to begin with, or taken something without permission." When a store is stolen from, do we say, " Well, it is their fault for stocking things people would want to steal"??  That is essentially what is being said here when an assault victim is in any way blamed for the crime.

 

  Can we try to take precautions to not catch attention? Yes, but even so, it is still never someone's fault (precautions or no) for someone else being "bad" and stealing from, or hurting others against their will.  It is not a victim's fault that bad people exist.

 

   I was 14, shy, and had never even kissed a boy. I was wearing a skirt, yes.... but it was a modest swing skirt that was several inches below my knees ( it was not tight). I had on a top that revealed nothing but my wrists and hands. I was wearing ked sneakers. I was in that room because I wanted to be away from the older boys downstairs who made me uncomfortable----and I was only there in the first place because I was visiting a childhood friend for the weekend who took me there to " say hi" to someone, and I had no previous knowledge of what, or who that entailed. So, is it my fault that I wore a skirt ( be it a modest one)----did that invite it because it made it easier? Is it my fault because I was much smaller than the young man, so that invited it because it meant I was limited in ability to fight back? Is it my fault because my hair was long enough to grip----and thus was an invitation for him to use it to ensnare me?

 

Of course not.

 

Bad people will hurt, steal, assault..... regardless.

 

  The reason I am vocal about this....is because this very mindset creates torment for victims. It is horrific enough for a person to experience an assault, let alone to be tortured with thinking it was some how their fault...... or to encounter people who even wrongfully tell them that, and treat them as if they were bad, or stupid, or had it coming in some kind of way. It forces people to endure abuse in silence, and live with the weight of blame and shame that is not even theirs...... it causes people to feel ashamed for wrong they did not do, but rather had inflicted on them. It further hurts, and victimizes people.

 

   My mother blamed me when things came out about my stepfather when I was 9. She had known the whole time, and not cared.... she just was mad it was discovered, and that it meant she had to leave the situation to save face......and she was afraid I would tell others about her part in things.  So she shamed me into silence---she told me people would see me as bad, dirty....that no one would play with, or talk to me, that if people knew, they would see how bad and stupid that I was. She even trained me to not say anything in the group counseling session the court put me in. I thought it was my fault.... that I was dirty, unlovable, unworthy.  When I was assaulted at 14, instead of having the support of parents, and receiving the medical care I very much had been in the need of..... I kept silent, because I knew I would have been blamed, and that it would have been thrown at me over and over as an example of how stupid I was.  No one should ever feel that way when they have been victimized. No one should be blamed.  People should be supported, and told over and over that it was not  their fault, that they should not feel ashamed.... that they are loved, and are still a good person of worth.

Edited January 25, 2016 by FiestySoprano

[yjacket]

      The way you are rationalizing/ looking at things is essentially saying its someone's fault for "inviting" it, like they should have known better----

The way you are looking at it is to deny basic human nature. Yes, a "clean car" will disinvite criminals from breaking in-it is a fact and will help protect you.

 

See what many survivors don't understand (and I married one and had to teach her this) is that not knowing that a "clean car" disinvites criminals and not practicing it doesn't make the owner to blame. It just means they are ignorant (not in a bad way, in a not knowing, lack of experience way). Now that one is older, wiser, has had a car broken into, etc. one thinks, hmm, how can I prevent this from happening again. So one doesn't park a car in a dark unlit allay in the seedy part of town, one doesn't keep shopping bags out in the open, etc.

 

Again, it's not about blame it's about lowering the odds- your way of thinking completely denies actual human behavior. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Lowering the odds....hmmm....didn't seem to work in these situations . . .

 

Teen Charged with Allegedly Raping 72- yr old Woman

 

 

Man Charged in Rape, Kidnapping of 82 yr old woman

 

Man accused of raping 67 yr old woman

 

Man charged with rape of 100 yr old woman

 

Nuns

 

Man accused of raping 72 yr old Nun arrested India

 

Man accused of raping 50ish aged nun USA

 

Three men arrested for rape/murder of nun, 86 South Africa

 

Special Needs 

 

Special Needs Girl Raped

 

Special Needs Student Alleges Rape in school bathroom

 

Teens Charged with Rape of Special Needs Student

 

Nice young Mormon girl - did not dress or act inappropriately

 

Elizabeth Smart

 

​So one doesn't park a car in a dark unlit allay in the seedy part of town, one doesn't keep shopping bags out in the open, etc.

 

 

Let's see how this idea plays out in the news.  Several of the stories linked above were woman raped at HOME or girls raped at school.   But maybe it's the company you keep"

 

Ex Police Chief gets Life for rape of child

 

Swedish doctor charged with drugging, kidnapping and raping a woman   This one appears to be date rape that started at her apartment.  No more house calls, doctor.

 

Chinese doctor jailed for seven years for rape and assault (at his clinic)

 

Houston doctor accused of rape loses medical license this rape happened at the hospital

 

Cop accused of raping black women 

 

Man Gets Jail for Raping his own daughter

 

Woman writes about being raped by her boss

 

 

Ladies (and I apologize to my fellow survivors for this harrowing list)....it seems you can be raped at any age from child to elderly woman.  You could be raped by your father, your mother's boy-friend, your date, a stranger, a cop, a doctor, your boss...you get the idea.  You can be as sweet an innocent as Elizabeth Smart, or even be a nun and you might still be raped.

 

You know what I can't find?  Stories of overweight women being raped.  Fat appears to be the only thing that will keep you safe.  I'm not kidding, I wouldn't joke about this topic.  I searched used search terms such as fat, overweight, obese, and I found one story (repeated by different media sources) of an overweight sex offender.  But I didn't see anything about overweight victims.  

[FiestySoprano]

The way you are looking at it is to deny basic human nature. Yes, a "clean car" will disinvite criminals from breaking in-it is a fact and will help protect you.

 

See what many survivors don't understand (and I married one and had to teach her this) is that not knowing that a "clean car" disinvites criminals and not practicing it doesn't make the owner to blame. It just means they are ignorant (not in a bad way, in a not knowing, lack of experience way). Now that one is older, wiser, has had a car broken into, etc. one thinks, hmm, how can I prevent this from happening again. So one doesn't park a car in a dark unlit allay in the seedy part of town, one doesn't keep shopping bags out in the open, etc.

 

Again, it's not about blame it's about lowering the odds- your way of thinking completely denies actual human behavior. 

 

 

I clearly talked about human nature, and that there are bad people out there who seek to take from, and harm others. The whole point is, no one should ever be blamed in any form for the bad actions and cruelty of others. We are not to blame for bad people existing. Can we try to protect ourselves, yes.... but regardless, it is never someone's fault that another person was ( and did something) bad.

 

  I cannot help but cringe to think you said things like this to someone who is a survivor, let alone felt you needed to " teach her" to view what was done to her as being her fault. Telling someone they are to blame, even in some small way, for a crime committed against them that they did not ask for----is wrong. It creates further damage and mental pain. It is hard enough for a person already feeling shame, and struggling to understand they are not dirty, or at fault, or damaged goods..... let alone to have outside people saying, " well you should not have.....you should have.... if you had paid attention..... if you had not worn that.......".  No. That is flat-out horrible.

 

   Any therapist or specialist in trauma would likely seethe to see this perspective, let alone to hear/ see that a victim is being "taught" to take blame for being violated against their will. The healing process, and therapy for victims is largely focused on helping the person to understand they are NOT to blame, and how to not further hurt their own selves with those kind of beliefs and perspectives. Telling someone that they did something that caused it, is the opposite of helping them to heal, not to mention is completely wrong/ untrue to begin with.

 

   I really hope for the sake of the person you claim to love, that you come to understand this, and not further hurt them by putting any form of blame on them.  The thing is, people often take those kind of things on the chin, and hold it inside. " Yes, you are right.... I was stupid.... I should not have done that.... it was my fault...." It is a natural response for a victim to blame themselves to begin with. Shame is a tool that can be used to keep people silent, and feeling like they have to take any additional blows in silence in order to not make it any worse......they may nod their head and agree simply because they can't take being told again how it was their fault----because that causes pain. Thus, when you tell a victim some part of something was their fault, you feed into the very things that a victim needs to work past, make it harder for them to feel like they can talk about it ( because of the risk of being shamed/ blamed).... and make them feel they will upset you if they try to oppose what you are saying---especially if they want to avoid conflict.  It puts a victim in almost an impossible position.  Victims are good at silently enduring for the sake of not making others uncomfortable, or having to have more blame, shame, or reminders of how stupid they are placed on them.  It is the very reason I kept silent when it happened to me----because I had been blamed previously ( at nine-years-old, no less), and could not bare to have that happen again. It was better to endure my own torment in silence, than to have others add to it, and make it all the worse.

Edited January 25, 2016 by FiestySoprano

[FiestySoprano]

Lowering the odds....hmmm....didn't seem to work in these situations . . .

 

Teen Charged with Allegedly Raping 72- yr old Woman

 

 

Man Charged in Rape, Kidnapping of 82 yr old woman

 

Man accused of raping 67 yr old woman

 

Man charged with rape of 100 yr old woman

 

Nuns

 

Man accused of raping 72 yr old Nun arrested India

 

Man accused of raping 50ish aged nun USA

 

Three men arrested for rape/murder of nun, 86 South Africa

 

Special Needs 

 

Special Needs Girl Raped

 

Special Needs Student Alleges Rape in school bathroom

 

Teens Charged with Rape of Special Needs Student

 

Nice young Mormon girl - did not dress or act inappropriately

 

Elizabeth Smart

 

 

Let's see how this idea plays out in the news.  Several of the stories linked above were woman raped at HOME or girls raped at school.   But maybe it's the company you keep"

 

Ex Police Chief gets Life for rape of child

 

Swedish doctor charged with drugging, kidnapping and raping a woman   This one appears to be date rape that started at her apartment.  No more house calls, doctor.

 

Chinese doctor jailed for seven years for rape and assault (at his clinic)

 

Houston doctor accused of rape loses medical license this rape happened at the hospital

 

Cop accused of raping black women 

 

Man Gets Jail for Raping his own daughter

 

Woman writes about being raped by her boss

 

 

Ladies (and I apologize to my fellow survivors for this harrowing list)....it seems you can be raped at any age from child to elderly woman.  You could be raped by your father, your mother's boy-friend, your date, a stranger, a cop, a doctor, your boss...you get the idea.  You can be as sweet an innocent as Elizabeth Smart, or even be a nun and you might still be raped.

 

You know what I can't find?  Stories of overweight women being raped.  Fat appears to be the only thing that will keep you safe.  I'm not kidding, I wouldn't joke about this topic.  I searched used search terms such as fat, overweight, obese, and I found one story (repeated by different media sources) of an overweight sex offender.  But I didn't see anything about overweight victims.  

 

   When I had the ptsd flashbacks, a big factor for me was that I so often felt helpless, and terrified due to being small.  I had no control, or ability to fight-off those so much bigger than me. I relived that sensation over and over...... and thus when I turned to food as a comfort source ( reaching "full" state in an attempt to distract from the emptiness of the soul wound).....I also felt protected by the size that I gained. It helped me to feel more in control, and safer ( even as an adult, I am only 5'2").  It meant that people would not see me as a target, or be interested in me..... as well as made me feel like I would have some size and weight to use should something happen.

 

I hurt my own self to try to " make myself less desirable" to bad people. THAT is what happens when people are made to feel at blame, or like they have to be the one to control what others see, or want to take. You might be able to hide belondings in a car, but how do you hide that you are female? How do you hide that you are vulnerable to people who would take advantage of that?  You hide your own self.... not just under layers of clothing ( because that doesn't really stop someone seeking to rape)..... you make yourself as undesirable as possible----even if it means harming your own self to achieve it. No one should feel they have to do that, let alone have others push blame on to them for somehow contributing to why someone desired them.

 

   When the ptsd hit me, I went from being someone who was playing leading ladies in productions etc..... to weighing over 300 pounds. I more than doubled my size in a short period of time, and just stopped looking in mirrors. For years I dealt with facing the abuse itself, but more recently have now been addressing the damage caused by the things I used to help myself cope. Largely I have been focusing on learning how to love my body, and see it as a gift.... and not just a beat-up car, or something that can be used against me.  I have lost 150 pounds, and have become self-aware of portion sizes, and not over-eating for emotional reasons.  I am finally getting back on a stage. People see me again, and I am learning how to view that as a good thing, and not as something that puts me at risk of being targeted and hurt.

Edited January 25, 2016 by FiestySoprano

[The Folk Prophet]

FiestySoprano, with all due respect, your biases are bleeding through. You clearly cannot see straight on the issue.

 

No one's blaming the victim for the "bad people". They're blaming stupid people for being stupid. Careless people for being careless. And naive people for being naive.

 

If you leave your car unlocked and filled with "stuff" in a dark and seedy part of town and then your stuff gets stolen...well duh.

 

I recall once when I was a teenager on a trip to Disneyland. We stayed in a camping park (my parents owned a camping trailer) nearby. I slept in the back of our SUV. After getting ready for the night I accidentally left my bag with all my clothes and stuff on the ground outside the SUV. The next morning, surprise, surprise, it was gone.

 

Well duh.

 

Was it fair? Did I deserve it? Of course not. I was just a dumb, naive, A.D.D. teenager with hardly a responsibility brain-cell in my head. But still...duh. Of course my bag got stolen. I was stupid. I was careless. I was naive.

 

It wasn't fair or right. But that's not really the point being made.

Edited January 25, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[FiestySoprano]

For the record, my step-father was both a police officer, and a corrections officer at the state penitentiary. 

[estradling75]

Lets look at it another way...  Lets say a person was in a car accident...  it was horrible and painful an they end up in traction for 8 months.  As part of their healing there is most definitively a time and a place for assurances and reminders that it was not their fault.  That the blame lies with the other person thoughtlessness, distraction, and or malice,  That is definitively a necessary part of healing.

 

But there is a second part to healing... One that usually comes much later it comes when a person needs to reclaim their life and get "back on the road" instead of sitting on the side lines.  When that time comes the message of "there was nothing you could have done" goes from helpful and healing to rendering a person powerless.  Why would anyone in their right mind even try fully heal by resuming life unless they felt they could have some measure of control? Why would they try if they felt that they were totally at the mercy of someone else thoughtlessness, distraction, and or malice?

 

In driving it is called defensive driving.  It is not legally required, but it teaches an individual to do more then just follow the rules of the road.  It is paying attention to what the other people on the road are doing, and asking them selves if the other person doesn't follow the rules, "what can I do to not be in their path of destruction?"  This is so important and so vital of a life skill to have and to use that it is not limited to just driving.

 

Its so important that we want to teach it before people get involved in "horrible accident" in the hopes of preventing it.  This is a good and wise idea... but it is not always possible nor does it always work.

 

But it is a falsehood to equate trying to teach someone to be actively engaged in protecting themselves, to saying that they are responsible for someone else's thoughtlessness, distraction, and or malice if they don't. 

[FiestySoprano]

FiestySoprano, with all due respect, your biases are bleeding through. You clearly cannot see straight on the issue.

 

No one's blaming the victim for the "bad people". They're blaming stupid people for being stupid. Careless people for being careless. And naive people for being naive.

 

If you leave your car unlocked and filled with "stuff" in a dark and seedy part of town and then your stuff gets stolen...well duh.

 

I recall once when I was a teenager on a trip to Disneyland. We stayed in a camping park (my parents owned a camping trailer) nearby. I slept in the back of our SUV. After getting ready for the night I accidentally left my bag with all my clothes and stuff on the ground outside the SUV. The next morning, surprise, surprise, it was gone.

 

Well duh.

 

Was it fair? Did I deserve it? Of course not. I was just a dumb, naive, A.D.D. teenager with hardly a responsibility brain-cell in my head. But still...duh. Of course my bag got stolen. I was stupid. I was careless. I was naive.

 

It wasn't fair or right. But that's not really the point being made.

 

No, you are the one that does not understand. You are equating a bag you left out, and visible.......to sexual assault being someone's fault for somehow being visible. The whole point I have tried to express is..... a woman cannot hide that she is a woman ( nor should she have to). A woman is not to blame because someone twisted inside attacked them simply because they are a woman and have something they want to take from them. Being vulnerable is not something that is a fault, let alone something that should be looked at as a source of blame.

 

It just blows my mind, as well as makes me sad..... that people think this way at all. It shows how far our society has yet to come on education.  It is often the reactions and blame of others that force victims to have to deal with things in silence. People stay silent when they feel ashamed, or like others will see them as damaged, and to blame somehow.

Edited January 25, 2016 by FiestySoprano

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Why is it that when the subject of pornography comes up, there's always someone that says, "women just can't understand what it is like".

 

And when a man complains that his wife doesn't give him "his propers"....someone says, "women just can't understand"

 

BUT

 

When we are talking about RAPE of women....men say, "you don't understand because of your bias".   How about "you don't understand because you are a man?"

[FiestySoprano]

Why is it that when the subject of pornography comes up, there's always someone that says, "women just can't understand what it is like".

 

And when a man complains that his wife doesn't give him "his propers"....someone says, "women just can't understand"

 

BUT

 

When we are talking about RAPE of women....men say, "you don't understand because of your bias".   How about "you don't understand because you are a man?"

 

 

Sadly, I think many men only would understand if they themselves were abused when they were young and vulnerable to those bigger than them.......or had to watch female family members be abused. Bad people take advantage of vulnerability ( be it size, age, gender, out-numbering, or using a weapon).

[estradling75]

Why is it that when the subject of pornography comes up, there's always someone that says, "women just can't understand what it is like".

 

And when a man complains that his wife doesn't give him "his propers"....someone says, "women just can't understand"

 

BUT

 

When we are talking about RAPE of women....men say, "you don't understand because of your bias".   How about "you don't understand because you are a man?"

 

I don't think either argument is fair...  Because it basically it is a way of telling someone to shut-up because they don't have anything meaningful to say.  Which is just rude.

 

That being said... I am more then willing to say I just just don't understand about rape and accept a women's say so on the matter... Just as soon as I find a woman willing to say I just don't understand about the male sex drive and accept my say so on the matter...  After all fair is fair.   But I have not had any takers on this offer so far.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I don't think either argument is fair...  Because it basically it is a way of telling someone to shut-up because they don't have anything meaningful to say.  Which is just rude.

 

That being said... I am more then willing to say I just just don't understand about rape and accept a women's say so on the matter... Just as soon as I find a woman willing to say I just don't understand about the male sex drive and accept my say so on the matter...  After all fair is fair.   But I have not had any takers on this offer so far.

 

I'll be the first then.  I readily accept that I don't understand about the male sex drive.  You can check my history...I rarely say anything about pornography or marital relations...for just this reason.

[The Folk Prophet]

No, you are the one that does not understand. You are equating a bag you left out, and visible.......to sexual assault being someone's fault for somehow being visible. 

 

No I'm not. And the fact that you can't see that emphasizes your bias.

 

The whole point I have tried to express is..... a woman cannot hide that she is a woman ( nor should she have to).  

 

And yet there is a whole huge world of difference between not having to hide that one is a woman and actually dressing provocatively and being in situations where one should, wisely, not be.

 

A woman is not to blame because someone twisted inside attacked them simply because they are a woman and have something they want to take from them. 

 

No. But a woman is to blame for stupidity if she makes stupid choices when she ought to know better. You don't seem to get the fact that the blame for one thing does not, in any way, relate to the blame for another? (Which is, I must now explain, the point of the bag being stolen story -- it's not comparing the crimes. It's comparing the reality of where blame actually lies. I was not to blame for the thief's thieving. I was to blame for being stupid and irresponsible.)

 

Being vulnerable is not something that is a fault

 

Sure it is, if the vulnerability could be removed by mere choice. Being vulnerable when one need not be is, indeed, a fault. Comparing vulnerability that is beyond one's control to vulnerability that is within one's control is the idea you seem to be missing.

 

let alone something that should be looked at as a source of blame.

 

Once again, it is only the source of blame for itself if it is because of poor choices. No one is blaming the crimes of others on the vulnerability of the victim. But when a victim is vulnerable when they have no reason to be then there is distinct reason to suggest that they change.

 

It just blows my mind, as well as makes me sad..... that people think this way at all. It shows how far our society has yet to come on education. 

 

By which you apparently mean we all need to stop thinking and just feel more and then...what...bad people will magically stop taking advantage of our stupidity? This whole, I-must-be-right-because-I'm-passionate-and-emotional-about-it thing just doesn't fly.

 

It is often the reactions and blame of others that force victims to have to deal with things in silence. People stay silent when they feel ashamed, or like others will see them as damaged, and to blame somehow.

 

Of course a response to a victim akin to "well you were stupid" is typically not appropriate. (Though sometimes it may be. Depends on the situation, personality, etc. Telling a teenager that they were stupid when they got their bag stolen is quite a different thing than telling someone who was abused that they were stupid. That is obvious.) But precautionary theories are different than post traumatic counselling, and the two should be differentiated in people's minds. (As in, "Don't walk down that dark alley," is different than "Why did you walk down that dark alley?" Bleeding heart ideology fails in this regard. A suggestion that women should not dress provocatively (even if "for their safety" is part of the reasoning) is not, in any way, the same thing as telling a woman who was raped that it was her fault for dressing provocatively. That's a huge leap of faulty logic.

 

It's also faulty logic to use examples where the victim truly was not to blame in any regard against ideas where the victim might have reasonably behaved differently and remained safe. And it is faulty logic to push examples to the extreme (Women shouldn't have to hide being women) as compared to the obvious other extreme (Women should not wear revealing, provocative clothing).

[The Folk Prophet]

Why is it that when the subject of pornography comes up, there's always someone that says, "women just can't understand what it is like".

 

And when a man complains that his wife doesn't give him "his propers"....someone says, "women just can't understand"

 

BUT

 

When we are talking about RAPE of women....men say, "you don't understand because of your bias".   How about "you don't understand because you are a man?"

 

Well that's a leap. You're comparing understanding of what it emotionally feels like to be raped to a logical perspective about protection against invasion to any degree. The one (which, of course some men could understand...but that's beyond the point) may not be fully understandable by others, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

[The Folk Prophet]

I don't think either argument is fair...  Because it basically it is a way of telling someone to shut-up because they don't have anything meaningful to say.  Which is just rude.

 

That being said... I am more then willing to say I just just don't understand about rape and accept a women's say so on the matter... Just as soon as I find a woman willing to say I just don't understand about the male sex drive and accept my say so on the matter...  After all fair is fair.   But I have not had any takers on this offer so far.

 

But we're not talking about understanding rape. We're talking about understanding protection, wisdom, and precaution. Claiming that a man can't understand women's vulnerability (which is a stretch) so he has no say on defensive measures is nonsense.

 

And vulnerability (and even sexual violence) is something that many men can understand to some degree, as compared to strong testosterone levels, something that many woman do not have and have never experienced to the point where they can relate at all. It's just not a viable comparison being made here.

[FiestySoprano]

I don't think either argument is fair...  Because it basically it is a way of telling someone to shut-up because they don't have anything meaningful to say.  Which is just rude.

 

 

 

 

It is not at all about telling someone to shut-up, or being rude, or disrespectful of "opinions". In this matter what has been said is not even opinions, but rather violations of facts---- it is flat out wrong and damaging to others. In all of this it has not been a matter of feeling a need to validate myself, or protect myself..... or play the " who is right game" with others. Everything I have said, including sharing my personal details..... has not been about me, or trying to prove something to the men who are saying a victim is in some way to blame. I fully understand those people likely will not change their view, and want to even believe it is true, and see women to blame in some form. I understand that sometimes it makes people feel better about crimes if they can blame it on the victim, and even make them believe it is true ...typically because they do not want to deal with, or help them through their pain---if they can blame it on the person, then they don't have to support them. Telling someone they are in some way at blame helps to silence them, and make them feel bad for "complaining", and thus removes their responsibility to otherwise help and support (because most people don't seek support for something they themselves did wrong).

 

   I did not share my details because I am defending myself. I am 100 percent solid at this point in knowing that I was not to blame, and that how others treated me was wrong. However, other victims are not. I have been saying these things for the other survivors who stumble upon, and see this thread. They are who matter most. I don't want them to see people pushing that victims are to blame, and seeing a survivor cow down to that. I want them to see and hear the truth, and that  they are NOT to blame, nor should they listen to anyone who clearly does not understand, or want to understand.

 

   One of the best tools in healing is seeing others who have overcome, and are able to speak, and stand-up. That is the very reason why we admire survivors like Elizabeth Smart.  It is why I speak-up. None of this has been about me, it is about the others who could be harmed by reading what those who are ignorant have stated.

[The Folk Prophet]

...it is about the others who could be harmed by reading what those who are ignorant have stated.

 

Interesting. In reviewing the thread, as near as I can figure, most of the initial debate was between people who have survived abuse.

 

So who's ignorant and should be ignored? The one who's experienced abuse or...the one who's experienced abuse?

 

Or maybe the survival of abuse has no bearing on being ignorant or not.

 

[estradling75]

Sadly, I think many men only would understand if they themselves were abused when they were young and vulnerable to those bigger than them.......or had to watch female family members be abused. Bad people take advantage of vulnerability ( be it size, age, gender, out-numbering, or using a weapon).

 

Thank you for proving my point...  It is totally horrible that you think that unless someone has been raped or otherwise abused they have nothing worthwhile to offer.  That is totally on you, and totally your bias, and totally rude.

[estradling75]

It is not at all about telling someone to shut-up, or being rude, or disrespectful of "opinions". In this matter what has been said is not even opinions, but rather violations of facts---- it is flat out wrong and damaging to others. In all of this it has not been a matter of feeling a need to validate myself, or protect myself..... or play the " who is right game" with others. Everything I have said, including sharing my personal details..... has not been about me, or trying to prove something to the men who are saying a victim is in some way to blame. I fully understand those people likely will not change their view, and want to even believe it is true, and see women to blame in some form. I understand that sometimes it makes people feel better about crimes if they can blame it on the victim, and even make them believe it is true ...typically because they do not want to deal with, or help them through their pain---if they can blame it on the person, then they don't have to support them. Telling someone they are in some way at blame helps to silence them, and make them feel bad for "complaining", and thus removes their responsibility to otherwise help and support (because most people don't seek support for something they themselves did wrong).

 

   I did not share my details because I am defending myself. I am 100 percent solid at this point in knowing that I was not to blame, and that how others treated me was wrong. However, other victims are not. I have been saying these things for the other survivors who stumble upon, and see this thread. They are who matter most. I don't want them to see people pushing that victims are to blame, and seeing a survivor cow down to that. I want them to see and hear the truth, and that  they are NOT to blame, nor should they listen to anyone who clearly does not understand, or want to understand.

 

   One of the best tools in healing is seeing others who have overcome, and are able to speak, and stand-up. That is the very reason why we admire survivors like Elizabeth Smart.  It is why I speak-up. None of this has been about me, it is about the others who could be harmed by reading what those who are ignorant have stated.

 

And I will repeat my early quote

 

 

But it is a falsehood to equate trying to teach someone to be actively engaged in protecting themselves, to saying that they are responsible for someone else's thoughtlessness, distraction, and or malice if they don't.

 

You aren't responsible for what someone does to you against your will.

 

You are responsible for what you do.  You want empathy and understanding and support... that is totally understandable... but that does not excuse you from ignoring and twisting those that are offering because it doesn't match what you expected to be

Edited January 25, 2016 by estradling75

[estradling75]

I'll be the first then.  I readily accept that I don't understand about the male sex drive.  You can check my history...I rarely say anything about pornography or marital relations...for just this reason.

 

An notice I have not said anything about how someone should feel or respond to being raped...  I have limited my self to the misunderstanding of intent.  And twisting the attempts of people who are trying follow the command of Christ to support one another. (Note the command isn't limited to only if you are Good at it)

Edited January 25, 2016 by estradling75

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

An notice I have not said anything about how someone should feel or respond to being raped... I have limited my self to the misunderstanding of intent. And twisting the attempts of people who are trying follow the command of Christ to support one another. (Note the command isn't limited to only if you are Good at it)

LOL, Kudos, you are a master...

A master at twisting my words....even when I'm trying to find common ground, you find a way to try and make me look like the bad guy.

About that supporting one another...yeah still waiting. ...