zil Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 2 hours ago, Carborendum said: No one faithfully pays their credit cards off every single month if done manually. There's always a month were we forget. These statements are false. Change "no one" and "always" to terms which allow exceptions and you may have factual statements (depending on the terms you choose and the facts). Not that I disagree with the concept, but I know for a fact that those two statements are false (I don't know the actual percentages, but I know they aren't absolute). (IMO, arguments are more effective when they're as close to accurate as we can make them.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 12 minutes ago, zil said: These statements are false. Change "no one" and "always" to terms which allow exceptions and you may have factual statements (depending on the terms you choose and the facts). Not that I disagree with the concept, but I know for a fact that those two statements are false (I don't know the actual percentages, but I know they aren't absolute). (IMO, arguments are more effective when they're as close to accurate as we can make them.) Yup, totally agree Zil. There are many people who pay off credit card debt monthly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 5 hours ago, Carborendum said: But... I'm not afraid... What? Fear wasn't why Luke failed. He failed because he didn't believe it. Fear being the big taboo is more prequel baloney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojo Bags Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 9 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: I'm not convinced that the ownership itself is really the key factor. Ownership of something was not my point, although I can see I wasn't being too clear. 9 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: And how is it that being in debt for a house is living within your means? It is the one thing the brethren has stated that it is OK to go in debt for. However, the point of living within one's means is that you have a home that is not immodest or extravagant, but adequate for what you need. It is a mindset of making do with less to make ends meet with the income you have available. 9 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: Mind you, I'm not advocating debt or making any claim that it's a good thing. I am looking for viable and reasonable arguments as to why it isn't a good thing though For me, the best reason is that all modern day prophets have stated we should not incur debt. I don't see any possible room for interpretation or a difference of opinion regarding this. The council is: get out of debt. That's good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: What? Fear wasn't why Luke failed. He failed because he didn't believe it. Fear being the big taboo is more prequel baloney. Forgive me for trying to inject some humor into the discussion. It was also an effort to surreptitiously make another argument. I believe that it is a very common error for people to give too much weight to the intangibles. When they base decisions on such error, it usually results in fear that they made the wrong decision. This is especially true when the Spirit is telling them "this is a want, NOT a need." When I make decisions on cold hard math (with only a little weight given to intangibles) I tend to not fear as much. Such subtlety is lost on some people. Of course, I include myself in that category since I've totally missed some points others have made in the past. And... Fear is the Mind Killer... Edited February 25, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) On 2/21/2016 at 1:57 PM, Eowyn said: There is one post in this thread that all but mocks those of us who don't have a great deal of money and expensive things. When we discussed the scripture I quoted in Sunday school today, this thread and that post specifically came to mind. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle..." You're right, the pride can go the other way. I admit to being prideful in my frugality, even when in times of "feast". I admit that I look at those who spend and spend on indulgent lifestyles, and shake my head at all the good things that could be done with that money (as you said, having means to do good can mean doing MUCH good, and thank heavens for those who do). Having been on both sides to some extent, I would hope that when we are again on the upside, we will live comfortably (and I know this is subjective), but not ostentatiously; that we will prepare for rainy days (because they DO come), and also give liberally of ourselves and our resources. I know of which post you are talking about and I don't find it mocking. We are talking about the virtues of 1k cars, and not having car debt. I'm sorry but it is hard to relate to. For most people the days of driving a 1k car or the equivelant have past. I understand that everyone's circumstance is different but I think that you and everyone else need to allow for that also. Your quote "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle..." is dismissive and judgemental. I haven't driven a 1k car since I was out of school and got my first real job. Does this make me prideful? Am I full of sin because I carry a car note? Absolutely not. In the part of the country where I live and work it is not uncommon for people to have VERY large car payments. They also make VERY large incomes. Envy is as much of a sin as pride is. When you visit the more affluent wards in the area you don't see a parking lot full of beat up old pickups, tore up mini vans and 20 year old honda civics. You see very, very nice automobiles. The more you make the more you spend. My Stake president drives a Tesla, a very cool one, the nice ones start upwards of 100k. I am willing to bet he might pass through the eye of the needle. Edited February 25, 2016 by omegaseamaster75 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 10 hours ago, Jojo Bags said: It is the one thing the brethren has stated that it is OK to go in debt for. However, the point of living within one's means is that you have a home that is not immodest or extravagant, but adequate for what you need. It is a mindset of making do with less to make ends meet with the income you have available. I would dare argue that it's only OK to go into debt for a home if it actually IS within one's means to do so. 10 hours ago, Jojo Bags said: For me, the best reason is that all modern day prophets have stated we should not incur debt. I don't see any possible room for interpretation or a difference of opinion regarding this. The council is: get out of debt. That's good enough for me. On this we agree. I am not, as I said, advocating the usage of debt, per se. I just see a whole lot of arguments against it that don't make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 21 hours ago, zil said: These statements are false. Change "no one" and "always" to terms which allow exceptions and you may have factual statements (depending on the terms you choose and the facts). Not that I disagree with the concept, but I know for a fact that those two statements are false (I don't know the actual percentages, but I know they aren't absolute). (IMO, arguments are more effective when they're as close to accurate as we can make them.) Hmm. Compromise. For those who haven't... yet... give it time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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