How great of a sin is debt?

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

It could be argued that by making a lot of money you are in a better place to help others...someone with a lot of money is more free to donate money to help others or to donate time. 

I've considered that, believe me, LOL.

That is a great point. You can't feed someone else's kids if your own kids are starving, at all. 

[Blackmarch]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I believe that we can make somewhat of a mistake by trying to categorize what are the greater sins.  However, without question, the greatest sin is to rebel against the laws, covenants, inspiration and will of G-d.  I would also point out that some sins are much more difficult to repent of than others.  For example it is very difficult to repent of murder – simply because it is impossible to restore a life we have taken.  Infidelity  in marriage is likewise difficult to repent of and takes more than remorse.

 

Debt is also a very serious sin that can be difficult or even impossible to repent of.  Regardless of how sorry we may be about entering into debt – we cannot and have not completed our repentance until we are out of debt and because of the nature of debt we may find ourselves as helpless in paying back a debt as we are in restoring a lost life.  This because many do not actually understand or believe what a great sin debt is.  It is kind of like a quote from my brother, “The way to discover if someone understands the principle of compound interest is simply in weather they pay it or receive it.”  In trying to educate one individual about the sin of entering into compound interest debt in order to buy a much needed sofa on sale – I demonstrated how a $600 sofa could cost them $20,000 and more.

 

In another thread someone questioned the seriousness of debt because they claim that debt is not a sin that prevents someone from holding a temple recommend.   Just because something is not specifically asked in a temple recommend does not mean that it has no bearing towards temple worthiness.   For sure if someone is not living in accordance with the covenants that they would make at the temple they are not temple worthy.  I would submit that it is impossible to covenant to live or keep the law of consecration if someone is in debt.  Rather debt is a covenant to devote one’s time and talents contrary to and in opposition to the law of consecration.

when one is enslaved, if it is bad enough it can take an individual to very evil places.

 

[NightSG]

4 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I don't like car debt either but who pays 35-50k cash for a vehicle that's just silly. Your throwing upwards of a third or more away in depreciation. There are much, much better investments than a car. So make your cash work for you and make a car payment.

Better yet, don't worry so much about appearances, buy a solid $1500 car for cash and don't make a car payment.

Lots of ugly but perfectly serviceable cars on Craigslist.  The $700 one I had until December made it just shy of 3 years and 100,000 miles with a total of about $700 in repairs.  Essentially, between purchase price and repairs (beyond normal maintenance; even a new car needs oil and filter changes, tires, etc. at standard intervals) that car cost me around $500 a year and only once refused to go when I needed it to.  Save more by learning to do basic maintenance and simple repairs yourself; even if I paid myself $20/hour to work on my own car, I still wouldn't hit one local mechanic's parts markup.

If you don't want to learn to work on cars yourself, a lot of us shade tree types will work for home cooked meals and such.  Helpful hint, though; it's a bonus for the guy wrenching on your car in your driveway if you also let him use your shower right after, and have a bar of Lava soap and/or bottle of Dr Bronner's soap in there.  One of the reasons I never considered being a professional mechanic is that I hate driving home greasy.  Cleaning up fully makes eating that home cooked meal a lot more pleasant too.

Edited February 18, 2016 by NightSG

[NightSG]

2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

But if that is your passion then you learn to buy used furniture, used cars, and avoid credit cards like the plague.  

Who can avoid a mortgage though? 

If used cars and furniture will serve your purposes, why not buy them anyway?  I used to work for a guy who was taking home $90k and still driving the 14 year old (at the time, it should be pushing 30 now and I'd bet he still has it) primer gray Accord with no back seat he'd bought for $100 when he left the Navy.  It was, honestly, one of the ugliest cars I've seen still cruising down the road, but he took care of it, and it would go 75mph rock steady.  Even the heat and A/C worked great.  He didn't need anything more, and what he would have spent on payments for a nicer car went right back in his pocket.  As a bonus, he never got asked to pick up clients at the airport.

As for avoiding a mortgage, take Dave Ramsey to extremes; live like no one else until you can afford to live like no one else.  I'm renting a place for $300/mo that at one time had two couples living in it.  (Though I think they paid $400/mo between them.)  It can be done, you've just got to make some sacrifices now for the benefits later.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

20 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Better yet, don't worry so much about appearances, buy a solid $1500 car for cash and don't make a car payment.

Lots of ugly but perfectly serviceable cars on Craigslist.  The $700 one I had until December made it just shy of 3 years and 100,000 miles with a total of about $700 in repairs.  

Love this. My husband and I have bought used cars for 20 years. No regrets.

[unixknight]

24 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Better yet, don't worry so much about appearances, buy a solid $1500 car for cash and don't make a car payment.

I agree with this in principle, and I drive a 1995 Chevy  pursuant to this philosophy, but there's a reason people are ready, willing and able to overpay for cars.  Not everybody can afford to drop that $1500... and bear in mind that doesn't include the cost of any repairs needed to get through inspection, tags, title, insurance... When I bought my car I paid $1600 for it, put another $800 into it to get through MD inspection, then another $300 in fees and miscellaneous.  So by the time all was said and done I was into it for over $2500. 

New cars can get away with being so expensive because dealerships and banks make it ridiculously easy to get a loan for a car at ten times that cost.  This can be a very attractive option if you need a car in a hurry and can't drop a couple grand on it.  I'm not promoting this approach, mind you, this is just how it is.  Many banks will gladly lend you $3000 for a brand new car when they wouldn't lend you $3000 for one that's 15 years old. 

[Vort]

From what I have seen, people buy cars as if they are an extension of their personalities. They want their car to somehow reflect their personality or values or something. A few of us look at cars as tools, and would no more think of paying triple for a nice car than we would consider paying triple for a gold-plated wrench. Sure, I want my car to look nice and not like I'm driving a junk heap, but if I have a dent or a scrape or a scratch -- so what? It also makes my life a lot easier when my son comes home with a big dent and scrape in the side of the Suburban from having backed it against a post in a parking garage, and I can just say, "Meh, whatever," without feeling any need to get upset.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Vort

[NightSG]

20 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I agree with this in principle, and I drive a 1995 Chevy  pursuant to this philosophy, but there's a reason people are ready, willing and able to overpay for cars.  Not everybody can afford to drop that $1500... and bear in mind that doesn't include the cost of any repairs needed to get through inspection, tags, title, insurance... When I bought my car I paid $1600 for it, put another $800 into it to get through MD inspection, then another $300 in fees and miscellaneous.  So by the time all was said and done I was into it for over $2500. 

You have to learn to be picky.  With the $700 car, I knew going in what it needed first, and that was about $300 of the total repairs over the 3 years I had it.  Tax was $75, title transfer $33, inspection $12.50 and registration $56.  $300 worth of other fees can't be blamed on the car, so chalk that one up to your choice of locations.

I've also had to pass up a couple of really great opportunities. A 1999 Neon in excellent shape except for the one thing the owner hadn't anticipated; a $30 shift linkage that failed leaving it stuck in second gear.  He had it parked nose in and was convinced it would need major repairs to go anywhere, but after I realized I couldn't get up there (75 miles away) to jury rig it (two zip ties and 20 minutes to get to the spot where they need to go) and bring it home, I told him how and pointed him to a website with instructions and the replacement part.  Talking to him, it was clear that this was his well-loved one-owner college car that he wanted to keep but his wife was using the breakdown as an excuse to push him to sell it for $500 to get it out of the driveway.  With a little perusing of owners' groups (for simple/cheap known issues like the failure-prone stock Neon shift linkage and its tendency to break in second gear for some unknown but comforting reason) and Craigslist "was running great until yesterday, please come give me some beer money for it before my wife sets it on fire and stuffs me inside" offers, you can come up with some seriously great deals.

[The Folk Prophet]

I lease my cars.

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I lease my cars.

Great business plan. How much do you charge?

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

Great business plan. How much do you charge?

Um...

 

..........

 

....um.....

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

Great business plan. How much do you charge?

Vort, you owe me $500 bucks! Don't go leasing any cars! 

 

(kidding world. It's actually $1,000!) 

[Traveler]

As a side note - I live in Sandy Utah and for a time worked either in downtown SLC or at the international center at the airport.  I commuted by bicycle 20 to 25 miles one way to work for close to 30 years.  I buy my cars new but not often.  Our newest car is 10 years old and our other car is going on 23.  And to reference a conference talk by President Faust - happy is the family that gets up every morning without debt.  Like so many things in the Gospel - living according to covenants is a plan of happiness.  Having observed those that live thinking debt is okay and having experienced life without debt - it is a lot easier to be happy without debt - so much so I cannot think of a single reason to live with the misery of debt.  But one lesson I have learned in life - some people so prefer misery that they will make every excuse possible to remain so.???? 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Traveler

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Traveler, I agree with you that we are far better off without debt. I've lived with credit card debt and without. Hands down, I sleep better without debt.

The only point I think we disagree on is whether or not it is a sin....having a mortgage is debt, but it is one area that the Brethren have counseled is reasonable debt...therfore not all debt is sin. Perhaps some is...I haven't considered that angle.

[NightSG]

9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

As a side note - I live in Sandy Utah and for a time worked either in downtown SLC or at the international center at the airport.  I commuted by bicycle 20 to 25 miles one way to work for close to 30 years.

Never done it more than a few days in a row, but it's an option when the weather cooperates, and I have done it to save gas even when I had a working car.  Starting the engine and driving 5 miles each way through town (4 stop signs and 5 stoplights each way on my current commute) burns as much gas as driving 30 miles on the highway, so bike commuting for a couple days in nice weather covers a trip to the city.

Today, OTOH, I would have been dealing with a 20mph gusting straight on headwind for more than half the trip to work.  My hybrid ain't fun in that; I can actually bring it to a dead stop on a downhill that normally gets me up past 30mph by just sitting up in that kind of wind, and of course, when we get a real Texas thunderstorm, even wearing raingear and goggles doesn't help much.

[NightSG]

21 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

The only point I think we disagree on is whether or not it is a sin....having a mortgage is debt, but it is one area that the Brethren have counseled is reasonable debt...therfore not all debt is sin. Perhaps some is...I haven't considered that angle.

I suspect it's more of a question of whether it's a crushing debt and/or an easily avoidable one.  I have an outstanding debt at the moment that I'm overpaying by $100 per paycheck when I can, and with any luck it will be gone next month.  A major factor in taking it on was the simple fact that the payments left me enough leeway to be able to do that, or keep the extra for that pay period if needed.  (I could have barely gotten through without the extra money, but I would have been eating nothing but stored rice and beans for a couple of weeks, and would have had no leeway for any more unexpected expenses at all, in addition to having to take the cheapest way out of a situation instead of the one that left me in a much better position in terms of not missing work, etc.)  Some people push the base payment on even a nonessential debt right to the limit of their disposable income for an ideal month, then end up at the payday loan office paying exorbitant finance charges for enough cash to cover what would otherwise have been a minor unexpected expense had they kept their planned payments low.

Edited February 18, 2016 by NightSG

[Guest MormonGator]

39 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agree with you that we are far better off without debt. I've lived with credit card debt and without. Hands down, I sleep better without debt.

 

"I've been rich,and I've been poor. Rich is better"-Unknown. 

[NightSG]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

"I've been rich,and I've been poor. Rich is better"-Unknown. 

"Lord, please let me prove that wealth won't make me a bad person." - Lots of people, myself included.

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, NightSG said:

"Lord, please let me prove that wealth won't make me a bad person." - Lots of people, myself included.

Perchik: Money's the world's curse.

Tevye: May the Lord smite me with it. And may I never recover!

[Guest MormonGator]

18 minutes ago, NightSG said:

"Lord, please let me prove that wealth won't make me a bad person." - Lots of people, myself included.

The best advice on money I ever got was from my Dad (a retired corporate executive):

"Money won't change you. At the end of the day, you will still be happy or sad, a sinner or a saint."  It's true, though it's easier to be happy in a limo going to baseball games and to the beach. 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

"I've been rich,and I've been poor. Rich is better"-Unknown. 

Oddly, Christ doesn't seem to agree with Unknown.

[unixknight]

2 hours ago, NightSG said:

You have to learn to be picky.  With the $700 car, I knew going in what it needed first, and that was about $300 of the total repairs over the 3 years I had it.  Tax was $75, title transfer $33, inspection $12.50 and registration $56.  $300 worth of other fees can't be blamed on the car, so chalk that one up to your choice of locations.

You were lucky.  Very lucky.  Most people who manage to find a serviceable car for $700 can't count on repairs being as cheap as $100 per year of ownership, as was the case with you.  Even finding the car that low in the first place is a rare thing.  Sure, if you have weeks and weeks to wait you can boost your chances of that one magical deal coming to your attention... but does everybody have that ability?

[Guest]

On winning the lottery:

If you're poor and miserable now, you'll be rich and miserable in a month.

If you're poor and happy now, you'll be rich and even happier in a month.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

On winning the lottery:

If you're poor and miserable now, you'll be rich and miserable in a month.

If you're poor and happy now, you'll be rich and even happier in a month.

So true! I find that both sad and incredibly telling. If you are wealthy , you really don't have the right to complain. I've seen so many rich people complain about their lives.

And in fairness, I've seen many poor people hate the rich and show nothing but envy, which is also sinful. 

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

You were lucky.  Very lucky.  Most people who manage to find a serviceable car for $700 can't count on repairs being as cheap as $100 per year of ownership, as was the case with you.  Even finding the car that low in the first place is a rare thing.  Sure, if you have weeks and weeks to wait you can boost your chances of that one magical deal coming to your attention... but does everybody have that ability?

Pretty much every time I search Craigslist for $250-1000, manual transmission and clean title, there's at least one running fine but with a burned out clutch.  Just don't have a way to drag them 60-120 miles home to fix them up.  I've even stopped off to look at a few, and if I'd had a tow bar and a vehicle capable of the pull I'd have taken a couple of those home with me.

Let's see what I can find right this moment:

88 Civic DX, $500, cranks but won't start, needs head gasket. (Could be a cracked head and/or block if they ran it hard to that point. Pass unless I could at least pull the head for a look before buying. If it really is just the head gasket, about $200-250 to fix, and most other engine problems would be spotted and fixable during the process.)

00 Mustang, $750 runs and drives, but needs throw out bearing, (whole clutch unless you just like taking things apart over and over again) has some body damage and the check engine light is on. (ELM327 code reader is $14 on Amazon, and well worth finding out what the code is on any OBDII car throwing a "I ain't working right" light.  With a little luck, all but the body damage could be back to top shape under $250, making this a $1000 steal.

00 Focus, $600, clutch linkage broke.  Could be a cotter pin, or a $50 clutch master cylinder.  Worst case, the pedal could have actually failed (often stamped sheet metal instead of the forged hardened steel required for brake pedals) which would likely be a cheap but not very fun junkyard swap.

98 Mazda 626, $475, runs and drives but misses and smokes.  If I had the spare cash and a trailer, I wouldn't feel too bad about betting this is a head gasket and a safer bet than the Civic above, as long as they're not driving it around too much while it's smoking.  Give me half an hour with a compression tester and borescope, and I could probably feel good about calling it to 90% certainty whether gasket, rings or cracked head or block.   A bit pricier on parts, but still, $150 for the gaskets and head bolts, another $30 for a timing belt just because I don't like putting one of unknown age back on, rod bearings and rings just because I'd already be that deep in it for another $80, and a full Saturday of being greasy could easily make this into a reliable daily driver under $750.

90 Accord, $600, runs and drives but smokes and misses.  Same as the Mazda; compression check, scope the dead/dying cylinder and then if it's just the gasket or rings, 90% chance it'll be good for under $300 in parts.

00 Metro, $500, battery won't take a charge but will run and drive fine if jumped off.  No brainer here; take a good battery, test drive it and see.  If it does OK, then you have a heck of an efficient little critter under $600 total.

Sure, all of the above need an above average understanding of cars, but if you ask around, I bet there's some guy you see every Sunday morning who's fixed up a few in his life and would be happy to go along with you to check them out, give an opinion, and tell you how many dinners it'll cost you to get him to do the repairs he thinks it needs.  If he's single, that might be all it takes.  If he's married, offer to go over and cook for his family, and I bet his wife will appreciate it enough to find some way to pass on the payment to him,

If I had the cash and a truck handy, I'd go up there with the boss's equipment trailer tonight and see if I could stuff that 626 and Metro on it.  The Metro is probably good as-is with the battery from the Mazda, (meaning if they won't both fit, I could stash it at a friend's house and bring it home later) and the Mazda would be a fun project for a couple of weekends that would yield a more comfortable, nicer looking car when I'm willing to sacrifice the gas mileage of the Metro.  (Advertised 55MPG, and I know a friend got a very consistent 52MPG for over 10 years just keeping one properly tuned)  Swapping a head gasket isn't such a big deal when you can throw a towel over everything at any stage and put off finishing until you feel like it.  If you need it running by Monday morning to get to work, there can be a lot more stress, as well as an inclination to ignore questionable rings, skip having the head mating surface flatted at the machine shop, and other things you'd do right if you could let it sit until next payday.

Edited February 19, 2016 by NightSG