Earth Life, a proving ground for who?

[spamlds]

Your question suggests this to me:  Since God already knows the outcome of our test, why bother testing us to begin with?

The question goes to the subject of what God's omniscience means vis-a-vis our agency.  Is the outcome pre-destined?  If not, does that mean that we could make a choice that would surprise God?

Here's how I think it works.  In a quantum universe, physicists tell us, all possibilities exist simultaneously.  When we choose we are connecting points in an infinite continuum of choices.  That process seems linear to us because we live in time.  Time is not the environment in which God lives.  He says "all things are present" before him.  He sees past, present, and future as one.  In other words, his quantum view allows him to see all possible outcomes of our choices, no matter what they are.  In that way, he has perfect foreknowledge, but we have full agency to choose.  

Our testing allows us to be proven.  Our true nature will determine our choices.  The theoretical has to become practical.  When Jesus prayed in Gethsemane that there might be some other way and when he expressed astonishment on the cross when Father withdrew His presence from him, that he might face death like the rest of us, alone and in fear, Jesus' own nature was what gave him strength to overcome the test.  He understood theoretically what it was to make an atonement for mankind.  When he actually had to work out the atonement, the actual deed was beyond even his own expectations.  The test had to be real for him, just as our tests are for us. 

[Vort]

33 minutes ago, spamlds said:

In a quantum universe, physicists tell us, all possibilities exist simultaneously.

Just a narrow comment on this particular idea. This is commonly believed, but it is wrong. Physicists tell us no such thing. Star Trek tells us that. (And contrary to popular belief, Star Trek bears no resemblance to actual reality.) Physicists sometimes model the universe using the so-called "Many Worlds" model, where each quantum event is veiwed as generating universes in proportion to the probability of the outcomes of that event. But that is basically a way to conceptualize nondeterministic quantum events. All possibilities do not, in fact, "exist simultaneously". Only one possibility ever exists, and that is the one that actually occurs. Before that happens, we can only know it probabilistically -- but that doesn't mean that every quantum event literally spawns a completely new universe.

[Sadliers]

"For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory." (D&C 88:22)

If you're going to be exalted then are you living the celestial law right now? If so then what about as a teen?

As for me it is a growing process. I'm much more obedient to celestial laws right now than I was 10 years ago. Heavenly Father knows where I will up... and I do too... but that doesn't mean I am perfect and it doesn't mean I can cease striving to be more compliant clear to the end. We are the ones that choose which eternal laws we are willing to obey and that determines which glory our body is quickened with at the resurrection. 

"28    They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. 

29    Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

30    And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

31    And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

32    And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." (D&C 88:28-32)

[Traveler]

11 hours ago, Sadliers said:

"For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory." (D&C 88:22)

If you're going to be exalted then are you living the celestial law right now? If so then what about as a teen?

As for me it is a growing process. I'm much more obedient to celestial laws right now than I was 10 years ago. Heavenly Father knows where I will up... and I do too... but that doesn't mean I am perfect and it doesn't mean I can cease striving to be more compliant clear to the end. We are the ones that choose which eternal laws we are willing to obey and that determines which glory our body is quickened with at the resurrection. 

"28    They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. 

29    Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

30    And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

31    And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

32    And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." (D&C 88:28-32)

I believe the point is not so much if we are living Celestial laws as it is - rather the question is do we know or desire to know and live Celestial law - and what Celestial law we do know - we love, honor or sustain.  Granted, I can understand that we are learning - what I do not understand are those that willfully dislike or disrespect a portion of Celestial law they do encounter and understand and still think themselves Celestial material.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

On 3/8/2016 at 9:36 PM, spamlds said:

Your question suggests this to me:  Since God already knows the outcome of our test, why bother testing us to begin with?

....

Part of the problem is understanding reasons for testing.  As a engineer I test many things - it is the means by which I get things to work and make sure they are capable of doing.  Often I counsel my clients that nothing will work correctly until it is tested.   I would submit that we are tested in this life - not to keep us from exaltation but rather to insure it.  That when we stop our testing we stop our progression.   Thus G-d already know the outcome of our test - and that outcome is the reason for our tests.

But we also have agency and some are determined that they have had enough testing.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

Test - like the multiple choice test at the end of a grading period to prove how much we have learned?  Not really.

 

Test... is simply the facilitator for change.  We are given all the answers.  Now, it's just a matter of whether we have the faith in God to change.

[Sadliers]

On February 26, 2016 at 5:57 PM, NeedleinA said:

So I've been thinking about one of the answers that is commonly given for "Why are we here (on earth)? What is the purpose?". One of the common answers that comes to mind..."So we can be tried & tested to see if we will do the things that HF asks us to do".  Kind of like, prove ourselves to him. Hum... double hum... why not a triple hum. 

Does HF know us, really truly know us individually? In addition does HF know everything? If he knows everything and knows us, does that mean he already knows which kingdom we will inherit? If he already knows which kingdom we will inherit and it is no surprise to him, then... wouldn't it seem logical that we are not here to prove anything to HF, but rather... we are here to prove to "ourselves" what we are made of. Earth life feels more like a place where we come to work things out with ourselves, so that once we do receive a kingdom, we will know in our heart of hearts that we received the correct kingdom. 

I know a little wish washy in my explaining, but how about the core idea?

 

You're correct in both accounts. As a Spirit it was hard to learn faith when there was no opposition. We are now in a different world where the knowledge of God has been veiled. We are now experiencing an enticement to go against God. We each have also experienced at least one traumatic, life-changing experience in life for our opportunity to grow and prove whether or not will will continue to serve God under such circumstances. With all this working against us will we choose to have true joy and happiness in life or will we choose to abandon God?

 

Another thing we experience here, unlike in the spirit world, are violations of our personal borders. That hits at an eternal law which prohibits violating one's personal borders yet here on earth will we violate other's personal borders when there is the opportunity to do so? And when our own borders are violated will we turn against God in anger over it?

 

And, of course, there is this body that we have been given stewardship over. It is like a little puppy for us to teach and to train. It has its own desires for pleasure and freedom from pain but can our spirits be the master or will the body master our spirits? And to make it a little more tricky the body can receive communication from the spirit world irrespective of the brain (which is where our spirit mostly functions and controls the body). Will we permit evil spirits to have any control? It's easy to give them permission - all we have to do is have a desire to sin and it gives them some control. Will we refuse to grant them control?

 

Though there be many aspects to life, it is designed to give us the opportunity to gain more glory than we previously had. The choice is totally ours at how much more we will gain. If it is our true desire to gain all glory then the only thing holding us back is whether or not it is actually a true desire.

[Sadliers]

19 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Test - like the multiple choice test at the end of a grading period to prove how much we have learned?  Not really.

 

Test... is simply the facilitator for change.  We are given all the answers.  Now, it's just a matter of whether we have the faith in God to change.

True, but the test isn't being noticed. If we intend to return to live with Heavenly Father then we need to know Him in this life. He can't be a stranger to us and then suddenly we claim it is "home" to be with Him after we die. No, if He is a stranger in this life then He will likely be a stranger in the next. How do we get to know Him in this life? Remember that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are One. We can't know one without knowing the other and we can't ignore one without ignoring all. Our direct line to knowing Heavenly Father is by knowing the Spirit. Our direct line to obeying Father is by obeying the Spirit. This is where the test comes in every day. When we get up in the morning do we check to see that the presence of the Spirit is being felt? If not then we didn't care whether Heavenly Father was with us for the day. Then let's say I slip and fall while in the shower. Test time! I now have a choice as to whether my response will keep the Spirit with me or drive the Spirit away. Anger opposes the Spirit because it comes from the opposing god. If I get angry over the misfortune then I have chosen to serve the god of anger. Will that be my choice or will I choose to have the Spirit with me?

 

Let's say at the breakfast table I spill orange juice on me. Test time! Will I choose the Spirit or will I choose the god of anger? I can only serve one master so which will it be? Irrespective of my lip service and beliefs, my choice at that moment of testing will determine which god I am leaning on. We will experience many tests every day to see if we will choose God (the Spirit) or Satan. Our choice is selected by our reaction to the tests. 

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Sadliers said:

True, but the test isn't being noticed. If we intend to return to live with Heavenly Father then we need to know Him in this life. He can't be a stranger to us and then suddenly we claim it is "home" to be with Him after we die. No, if He is a stranger in this life then He will likely be a stranger in the next. How do we get to know Him in this life? Remember that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are One. We can't know one without knowing the other and we can't ignore one without ignoring all. Our direct line to knowing Heavenly Father is by knowing the Spirit. Our direct line to obeying Father is by obeying the Spirit. This is where the test comes in every day. When we get up in the morning do we check to see that the presence of the Spirit is being felt? If not then we didn't care whether Heavenly Father was with us for the day. Then let's say I slip and fall while in the shower. Test time! I now have a choice as to whether my response will keep the Spirit with me or drive the Spirit away. Anger opposes the Spirit because it comes from the opposing god. If I get angry over the misfortune then I have chosen to serve the god of anger. Will that be my choice or will I choose to have the Spirit with me?

 

Let's say at the breakfast table I spill orange juice on me. Test time! Will I choose the Spirit or will I choose the god of anger? I can only serve one master so which will it be? Irrespective of my lip service and beliefs, my choice at that moment of testing will determine which god I am leaning on. We will experience many tests every day to see if we will choose God (the Spirit) or Satan. Our choice is selected by our reaction to the tests. 

And here is the fallacy.  That you can only know God through Church teachings.

God is manifest through His creation.  It is in one of the Primary Songs...  "Whenever I hear the song of a bird or look at the bright blue sky..."

So that, people who are born, raised, lived, and died in the Cordillera mountains untouched by Civilization having never heard of the word God, Jesus, or Holy Spirit is not barred from the Kingdom of Heaven just because missionaries haven't found their way in there yet.

How they live their lives is also an agent of change.  Whether they will follow the Light of Christ that is within each and every one of us - church-taught or not.  Every single action leads us to enhancing the light or diminishing the light... each time we choose, it brings about change.

[Vort]

On 3/24/2016 at 10:02 AM, anatess2 said:

God is manifest through His creation.  It is in one of the Primary Songs...  "Whenever I hear the song of a bird or look at the bright blue sky..."

Here is one of my favorite versions of My Heavenly Father Loves Me, in a violin (Ben Chan) and piano (Ben Chan's brother, I think) medley with Our Savior's Love.