is being overweight a sin?

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Even my ol' Army buddies, who regularly got drunk every weekend, didn't get drunk every time they drank, and I did not imply in the least that to drink is to get drunk.

But you did not answer my question: have you ever been drunk?

You see, it only takes one drunk behind the wheel, whether he's an alcoholic or a once-in-a-lifetime drunk to kill my granddaughter, or, as actually happened, kill my grandmother (along with twelve cars parked along the residential street where he was driving 80 mph).

There are no positive benefits from alcohol that cannot be achieved by other, non-toxic means.

Lehi

I'm sorry your grandmother was killed by a drunk driver. That's horrible, and I hope the person who did it got a severe jail sentence. 

I agree it only takes one time to get drunk behind a wheel, but surely you understand that not every person who drinks a glass of wine or beer has driven intoxicated before.

[Guest MormonGator]

I get that drinking is wrong, but we can't assume that everyone who drinks is an alcoholic or habitual drunkard. They are entitled to the benefit of the doubt and fairness, just like we are. 

Edited March 10, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I agree it only takes one time to get drunk behind a wheel, but surely you understand that not every person who drinks a glass of wine or beer has driven intoxicated before.

The problem with this approach is that the drunk himself cannot control himself, cannot keep himself from driving: he has lost all judgement.

I do not recall the source, nor the numbers, but I read some fifteen years ago, that the first drink impairs judgment, and that by the third or fourth, the person is totally incapable of making valid, rational choices.

Lehi

Edited March 10, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

14 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I agree that drinking is wrong, but we can't assume that everyone who drinks is an alcoholic or habitual drunkard. They are entitled to the benefit of the doubt and fairness, just like we are. 

No one has said that all who drink are alcoholics. But anyone who drinks has put himself in a position where he can harm others, and dies, in fact, harm himself. The liver is a delicate organ, and it is stressed with even a little alcohol.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

The problem with this approach is that the drunk himself cannot control himself, cannot keep himself from driving: he has lost all judgement.

Again, it doesn't work that way. 

In fact,many people who drink a beer at a baseball game or a glass of wine somewhere don't drive afterwards. It's actually very easy to give your keys to someone else or just agree not to drive and hold to that agreement. It happens much more frequently than you think. 

[LeSellers]

16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm sorry your grandmother was killed by a drunk driver. That's horrible, and I hope the person who did it got a severe jail sentence.

He didn't. Six months probation, as I recall.

I could not attend the trial: I was in an Army school. I had just returned form Italy, and had not visited her for five years. A bit disappointing to see her at the funeral, rather than in her living room.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Again, it doesn't work that way. 

In fact,many people who drink a beer at a baseball game or a glass of wine somewhere don't drive afterwards. It's actually very easy to give your keys to someone else or just agree not to drive and hold to that agreement. It happens much more frequently than you think. 

That's not what the article I read said.

The first drink is enough to start impairing judgment.

Lehi

Edited March 10, 2016 by LeSellers

[unixknight]

11 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

That's not what the article I read said.

The first drink is enough to start impairing judgment.

Lehi

It's true that the first drink starts the process, but it's not really accurate to suggest that the instant the first alcohol molecule hits the bloodstream that person is no longer able to have a coherent thought.  (I know that's not what you mean to say, but it comes across that way a little.)  I think what Gator is trying to do is take the reasonable middle ground that acknowledges that while we as LDS agree that alcohol should be avoided entirely, it's also disingenuous to suggest that a person can't possibly handle a couple of drinks in a reasonably responsible way.

I'd also like to echo the sentiment that it's a tragedy what happened to your grandmother, and I too am disappointed to know that the drunk driver only got 6 months' probation.  I'm sorry for your loss, brother.

[Maureen]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

"Only" reason is irrelevant IMO. The wording you chose for the remainder is somewhat confusing, so I'm not going to try to address it.

Your profile reads "Protestant" and doesn't specify any particular sect, so I don't know if this will speak to your or not, but I'll try.  If a man told you that he really wanted to be a "Christian".  He really thought it was a great way of life and even great philosophy and lifestyle.  And he'd look forward to having a personal relationship with Christ.  But he could never give up his weekly homosexual orgies.  So, he's not going to bother.  What would you call that?  I'd call it addiction.

 

You mean as opposed to someone's weekly heterosexual orgies? You assume that if someone is gay they are having an orgy instead of being in a monogamous relationship?

This has nothing to do with me being Protestant (Lutheran) but my own personal feelings and beliefs, and I believe that even gays can be in a monogamous relationship and have a good relationship with God.

M. 

[NeedleinA]

Yikes, this went south quick.

[Guest MormonGator]

15 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Yikes, this went south quick.

 No one is here to "support" drinking-I'm confident that as LDS we can all agree it's not a good idea.

[omegaseamaster75]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

Of course deductive reasoning comes into play.  That's exactly my point.  I look at the overall health statistics of people who observe the Word of Wisdom vs. those who don't and I see a clear pattern.  From that I deduce that the Mormons are maintaining some kind of philosophy on healthy living that is demonstrably effective.  Meanwhile I hear people quoting some research or another claiming health benefits from moderate use of alcohol, and those people are using no deductive reasoning at all.  They're taking the word of a researcher for it because they like what he/she has to say.  Meanwhile they're living shorter lives, on average, than the people who are ignoring that research and sticking to their religious belief.

If your goal is to somehow prove that we're wrong for following the WoW (specifically, the prohibition on alcohol), you've got a real uphill battle, but I'm always happy to discuss as long as you like. 

I'll make this observation. The WoW how we practice it currently is a matter of policy not doctrine. Only recently (the last 100 years) has it been a requirement to abstain from smoking and drinking in it's entirety.

I think that there may be health benefits derived light usage of alcohol, I don't have a study to back me up because I do not drink I have no interest in researching it.  I guess I'm intellectually lazy. I CFR you to prove to me that people are living longer lives because of a strict adherence to the WoW. 

 

[Maureen]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

Of course deductive reasoning comes into play.  That's exactly my point.  I look at the overall health statistics of people who observe the Word of Wisdom vs. those who don't and I see a clear pattern.  From that I deduce that the Mormons are maintaining some kind of philosophy on healthy living that is demonstrably effective.  Meanwhile I hear people quoting some research or another claiming health benefits from moderate use of alcohol, and those people are using no deductive reasoning at all.  They're taking the word of a researcher for it because they like what he/she has to say.  Meanwhile they're living shorter lives, on average, than the people who are ignoring that research and sticking to their religious belief.

If your goal is to somehow prove that we're wrong for following the WoW (specifically, the prohibition on alcohol), you've got a real uphill battle, but I'm always happy to discuss as long as you like. 

Do you have anything to backup your claim that those who consume alcohol moderately are living shorter lives? And what's the difference between you accepting "the overall health statistics of people who observe the Word of Wisdom vs. those who don't and I see a clear pattern" and those who accept the research done on moderate alcohol consumption as a health benefit? You claim "They're taking the word of a researcher for it because they like what he/she has to say." How are you not doing the same thing?

M.

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

]I have no interest in researching it.  I guess I'm intellectually lazy.

 intellectually lazy? No, that means you are normal my friend. 

[unixknight]

8 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Do you have anything to backup your claim that those who consume alcohol moderately are living shorter lives? And what's the difference between you accepting "the overall health statistics of people who observe the Word of Wisdom vs. those who don't and I see a clear pattern" and those who accept the research done on moderate alcohol consumption as a health benefit? You claim "They're taking the word of a researcher for it because they like what he/she has to say." How are you not doing the same thing?

M.

Simple.  The researcher didn't have an agenda to demonize the use of alcohol. 

Read for yourself.

"The study, conducted by UCLA epidemiologist James E. Enstrom, tracked the mortality rates and health practices of nearly 10,000 California high priests and their wives for 14 years. As a follow-up to research Enstrom published in 1989, the study confirms that the healthiest active Mormons have a life expectancy that is eight to 11 years longer than the general white population in the United States."

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Maureen said:

Your posts seem to imply that my posts are annoying to you and that you wish that I didn't post my opinion at all.

M.

 

I didn't say that, and you are dodging what I'm trying to understand. What is your purpose in trying to convince a bunch of Mormons, on an LDS-supportive message board, that alcohol isn't that bad?

[omegaseamaster75]

15 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Simple.  The researcher didn't have an agenda to demonize the use of alcohol. 

Read for yourself.

"The study, conducted by UCLA epidemiologist James E. Enstrom, tracked the mortality rates and health practices of nearly 10,000 California high priests and their wives for 14 years. As a follow-up to research Enstrom published in 1989, the study confirms that the healthiest active Mormons have a life expectancy that is eight to 11 years longer than the general white population in the United States."

Or this http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891

 

Point is you can find a study to back whatever it is you want to say about drinking

[Maureen]

17 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Simple.  The researcher didn't have an agenda to demonize the use of alcohol. 

Read for yourself.

"The study, conducted by UCLA epidemiologist James E. Enstrom, tracked the mortality rates and health practices of nearly 10,000 California high priests and their wives for 14 years. As a follow-up to research Enstrom published in 1989, the study confirms that the healthiest active Mormons have a life expectancy that is eight to 11 years longer than the general white population in the United States."

But you think that research that shows health benefits in moderate alcohol consumption demonizes those who abstain?

More to the topic of this thread, BYU did this study in 2006.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11355738/ns/health-fitness/t/byu-study-finds-mormons-weigh-more/#.VuC8qMT329w

M.

[unixknight]

13 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Or this http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891

 

Point is you can find a study to back whatever it is you want to say about drinking

So what?  You asked me to back up my claim, I did.  Make of it what you will.

[unixknight]

13 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Or this http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891

 

Point is you can find a study to back whatever it is you want to say about drinking

So what?  You asked me to back up my claim, I did.  Make of it what you will.

[unixknight]

11 minutes ago, Maureen said:

But you think that research that shows health benefits in moderate alcohol consumption demonizes those who abstain?

More to the topic of this thread, BYU did this study in 2006.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11355738/ns/health-fitness/t/byu-study-finds-mormons-weigh-more/#.VuC8qMT329w

M.

Why would I think that?

My point is that the study I cited didn't have an agenda to demonize alcohol, so there's little reason to suppose that it's likely to be biased in its findings on that front.

As for your link... If Mormons weigh more, then I'd say that's a fantastic reason to avoid drinking alcohol

Edited March 10, 2016 by unixknight

[omegaseamaster75]

the overriding point is that you can find a study to backup any claim that you want. We abstain as a matter of covenant and policy. We can decry the evils of alcohol consumption but when we do it does not show well.

[Maureen]

39 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I didn't say that, and you are dodging what I'm trying to understand. What is your purpose in trying to convince a bunch of Mormons, on an LDS-supportive message board, that alcohol isn't that bad?

I said you implied it. I've mentioned several times on this thread my point, but maybe one more time won't hurt.

To believe that all alcohol consumption is not healthy or is evil is in my opinion silly and not factual. I have been arguing that moderate alcohol consumption is not the same as alcohol abuse. It is possible to be disciplined and drink moderately. There are a few on this thread who do not agree and that's fine but I see nothing wrong in sharing my opinion and knowledge on this subject.

M. 

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Maureen said:

I said you implied it. I've mentioned several times on this thread my point, but maybe one more time won't hurt.

To believe that all alcohol consumption is not healthy or is evil is in my opinion silly and not factual. I have been arguing that moderate alcohol consumption is not the same as alcohol abuse. It is possible to be disciplined and drink moderately. There are a few on this thread who do not agree and that's fine but I see nothing wrong in sharing my opinion and knowledge on this subject.

M. 

I think both you and Eowyn are correct. it IS strange to argue "in favor" of alcohol use on an LDS website-but we can't let our morals make us believe things that aren't based in fact. So I sort of agree with both you. 

[NeedleinA]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

 No one is here to "support" drinking-I'm confident that as LDS we can all agree it's not a good idea.

Huh Gator?  Was this for me?

If so, I should have clarified my, "yikes this went south quick" comment. I just jumped on the thread to see what was cooking, and presto-chango, I was looking at "R-rated stuff".