is being overweight a sin?

[Sunday21]

I find the no coffee thing hard! The alcohol thing is hard if I watch a movie in which a woman is drinking wine, otherwise ok,

[Guest]

9 hours ago, David13 said:

While I did not consciously join the church, but was called in in some way, I did consciously not further investigate the church in 1985 knowing that I'd have to give up coffee.  ...

But, is it possible I avoided joining the church in 1985 because I didn't want to give up coffee?  Possible yes.  But I think there was more to it at that time, foremost being I had no real concept of what the church is like from the inside.

That's an interesting story, David.  The mind/soul of the convert or "near convert" is complex, certainly.  But I think @Travelerwas pretty close to the mark.  It separates those who "have little interest" in being a saint even when they think it's a good thing.

Those who do make the plunge have varying degrees of difficulty (as evidenced by the last few posts).  I'm thankful I never had that difficulty myself.  My grandfather was a convert and found it difficult to give up smoking.  But he eventually did it.  My parents (also converts) drank alcohol and coffee.  They didn't have much of a problem with it.  But when we'd go to a Chinese restaurant my dad would tell us to go ahead and drink the tea because it was herbal tea.  People criticize me for being so gullible as to believe that.  But I was 7 years old when he first told me -- and it was my father.  So, yeah, I was gullible.  The point being that my father found it a necessity to drink tea at a Chinese restaurant (even after joining the Church) just like many people find it a necessity to drink alcohol with any dinner or social gathering.

One of the first few signs that people have left the Church (even if their names are on the records) is that 1) They get rid of their garments.  & 2) They start breaking the WoW.  I can understand the garment thing.  But I just don't see the attraction of everything else.  Maybe it's just me.  Maybe it's because I was raised in the Church.  But I just don't see the attraction except to make a statement "I AM NO LONGER A MORMON."  I've often said that if you smoke outside of Utah, you're a victim of peer pressure as a kid.  If you smoke in Utah, it's because you want to publicly show that you are not a Mormon.  Well, I believe most ex-Mormons break the WoW for the same reason.  Surely they know it's bad for them.  

And if you look at Bob Newhart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XDxAzVEbN4

You begin to understand why some things (cue Forrest Gump) just don't make no sense.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Guest

[unixknight]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

One of the first few signs that people have left the Church (even if their names are on the records) is that 1) They get rid of their garments.  & 2) They start breaking the WoW.  I can understand the garment thing.  But I just don't see the attraction of everything else.  Maybe it's just me.  Maybe it's because I was raised in the Church.  But I just don't see the attraction except to make a statement "I AM NO LONGER A MORMON."  I've often said that if you smoke outside of Utah, you're a victim of peer pressure as a kid.  If you smoke in Utah, it's because you want to publicly show that you are not a Mormon.  Well, I believe most ex-Mormons break the WoW for the same reason.  Surely they know it's bad for them.  

 

I've seen that happen.  My ex (who was the one who introduced me to the Church) decided to stop living the LDS life and now not only drinks alcohol, but she does it in front of our kids and flaunts it.  She even pledged to take our kids out for their first drink when they turned 21.  Well, fortunately our oldest is now 23 and has yet to let a single drop of alcohol pass his lips, in defiance of his mother.  Our next oldest turns 21 this Summer so hopefully he'll also refuse.

[NightSG]

14 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Maybe it's the convert thing. Yes, I'm sure there are converts who think "Well, I'm LDS now, so I will never have the urge to drink, smoke, or do anything else again." But that's a good way to disappoint yourself.  I'm sure that are lifelong LDS who think that it's "easy" to ignore those urges. It's not. 

I'm just a couple weeks past the three years sober mark, but coming up on four years since my baptism.  I still struggle with nicotine cravings often as well, and that one has gone from fully back at a pack a day to none for a couple of weeks in a fairly random cycle.

[NeedleinA]

2 hours ago, NightSG said:

I'm just a couple weeks past the three years sober mark, but coming up on four years since my baptism.  I still struggle with nicotine cravings often as well, and that one has gone from fully back at a pack a day to none for a couple of weeks in a fairly random cycle.

Great job on the drinking and keep on trucking along fighting the nicotine. Our current bishop shares with us: "Always better to smell like smoke at church than to not be at church at all." - I agree. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by NeedleinA

[Sunday21]

I remember my first day without coffee. I was staying at a Mormon family home. You should have seen their faces as I tried to walk down the stairs for breakfast. Kinda incredulous pity. What a Nasty week! Now my doctor has banned all cola products and energy drinks so I have to do it all again!

[NightSG]

11 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I remember my first day without coffee. I was staying at a Mormon family home. You should have seen their faces as I tried to walk down the stairs for breakfast. Kinda incredulous pity. What a Nasty week! Now my doctor has banned all cola products and energy drinks so I have to do it all again!

Try juice.  Really, sometimes that morning sluggishness is just a combination of low blood sugar and dehydration since you haven't  had anything to eat or drink in several hours.  I usually keep a sport bottle of oversweet lemonade (quart bottle, lemon for a pint but sugar for the whole quart - basically, figure out how much lemon you need for it to not be cloyingly sweet) by the bed and finish it as part of the morning routine.  It's a pretty effective wakeup.

[Traveler]

On Tuesday, March 08, 2016 at 6:50 PM, MormonGator said:

Well, I find it overwhelming and challenging on a daily basis. I guess that does me in. Yikes!

Notice though-I didn't say if I followed it or not-just that I find it overwhelming and incredibly challenging to do so.

Maybe it's the convert thing. Yes, I'm sure there are converts who think "Well, I'm LDS now, so I will never have the urge to drink, smoke, or do anything else again." But that's a good way to disappoint yourself.  I'm sure that are lifelong LDS who think that it's "easy" to ignore those urges. It's not.

None of this is pejorative-I just said I support the church 100% and it's teachings.

I had carefully chosen the word "overwhelming for a reason – I understand that for some the challenge can be more difficult than it is for others.  My belief, however, is that regardless of the difficulty – that it can be done.  That everyone can and should.  I am quite sure my dear friend MormonGator that though this may be somewhat difficult for you that it is both possible and worth whatever effort and sacrifice you must make to accomplish it.

 

The Traveler

[Maureen]

On 3/7/2016 at 3:27 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

Agreed that the factors you cite make a difference on how the body absorbs alcohol, but I think any (implicit) suggestion that one can drink alcohol and be fine, fine, fine, fine, fine--woops!  I guess I'm drunk now!--defies biology, chemistry, and common sense.  Rather, one's intellectual/emotional/moral faculties are being diminished, by degrees, with every sip.  It's just that at some point, the drinker reaches a threshold where (s)he decides that the impairment is no longer tolerable.

And, here's another thing:  As a drinker, one doesn't know where one's limits lie until one has exceeded them.  In other words, at some point someone got to a point where alcohol undeniably did impair their intellect/emotional/moral capacity; and then--rather than say "gee, that was awful.  I'm staying away from that junk!", they came back with "well, maybe next time I'll have a leeetle bit less . . ."  I don't think, as a philosophical matter, God is terribly fond of our experimenting to find out just how much risky behavior we can get away with. As Unixknight and LeSellers point out--at least we have a legitimate reason to go back to food.  In this era of clean water supplies, we have no such need for alcohol.

Also, I've never stood up in court next to a defendant whose gluttony resulted in the neglect of their children or got a third party killed.  I've done quite a bit of that with alcohol drinkers, though.  And, every single one of them was at some point sure that their alcohol use was not impairing their parenting abilities or their driving skills--some of them, right up until their parental rights were terminated or they were escorted off to prison.

JAG, I'm not saying that alcohol abuse doesn't exist, but you seem to think that no person is able to be disciplined in their consumption of alcohol. I'm telling you that people can be moderate drinkers, whether you believe it or not. You are of the opinion that being a moderate alcohol drinker (since you are of the opinion that moderate drinkers don't exist) is worse than gluttony. I disagree with that.

M.   

 

[Maureen]

On 3/7/2016 at 3:31 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

TFP was being snide.

Snide or not, your comment was still correct.

M.

[Maureen]

These double posts are really annoying.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Maureen

[LeSellers]

17 minutes ago, Maureen said:

JAG, I'm not saying that alcohol abuse doesn't exist, but you seem to think that no person is able to be disciplined in their consumption of alcohol.

So, you've never been drunk?

I have never seen anyone who drank at all who did get out-of-his-mind drunk at least once a year. Most I know do it a couple of times a month.

Lehi

[Maureen]

On 3/8/2016 at 5:14 PM, Carborendum said:

Apart from what others have said here, I see another "evil" of alcohol... and coffee for that matter.  Even for those who imbibe moderately I found so many friends who said that they'd love to be a Mormon.  They love so much about it.  But they could never give up their (beer, wine, coffee...).  And they were serious.

So, even though they only consume moderately, they are addicted to the point that they would rather have that than what they perceive as a great lifestyle choice, if not eternal salvation.

I'm not sure that addiction is the only reason. I would say when a ultimatum is given for one's membership, that that person has to decide what's more important - the ability to worship and choose one's course or the ability to worship and be limited in how to choose one's course.

M. 

[Maureen]

On 3/8/2016 at 5:29 PM, Eowyn said:

You're quite good at not doing that. 

I was honestly wondering what the point of advocating drinking on an LDS site is. I think it's not  respectful of our beliefs. I think it's strange. It makes me question your intentions. But no, technically I see no rules being broken, nor did I ever say you had.

Your posts seem to imply that my posts are annoying to you and that you wish that I didn't post my opinion at all.

M.

[Maureen]

33 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

So, you've never been drunk?

I have never seen anyone who drank at all who did get out-of-his-mind drunk at least once a year. Most I know do it a couple of times a month.

Lehi

Let's change the question (someone said that recently).

Don't you always get drunk when you drink alcohol? The answer is No. If I go out to a restaurant I sometimes will have one glass of wine, because that's all I care for. I usually also have a glass of water and later coffee, especially with dessert. And there are some occasions where I don't have any alcohol at all, my choice of drink then is usually gingerale. Isn't free will a wonderful thing.

M.

[unixknight]

12 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Let's change the question (someone said that recently).

Don't you always get drunk when you drink alcohol? The answer is No. If I go out to a restaurant I sometimes will have one glass of wine, because that's all I care for. I usually also have a glass of water and later coffee, especially with dessert. And there are some occasions where I don't have any alcohol at all, my choice of drink then is usually gingerale. Isn't free will a wonderful thing.

M.

I was thinking of coming into the debate on your side... Not to extol the virtues of alcohol but because I felt some of my fellow LDS were being a bit harsh toward your comments... But that last sentence struck me as being needlessly snarky.  The LDS Church promotes free will better than any other denomination I'm aware of.  Nobody gets excommunicated for drinking alcohol or smoking.  True, a member who doesn't observe the Word of Wisdom won't be attending the Temple, but that doesn't constitute depriving people of freewill.  To argue that having these restrictions is a  clamp on free will is like saying Catholics and Protestants don't posses free will because the church forbids adultery.

[Maureen]

The point of my free will comment unixknight, is to say that people have the free will to choose what they want; and those choices can be moderate in nature. Just because something can be looked at as addictive or unhealthy, doesn't mean it has to be. It's up to us on how we wish to use food or alcohol. Whether you are moderate or abusive in your choice, it's still your choice.

M.

[unixknight]

10 minutes ago, Maureen said:

The point of my free will comment unixknight, is to say that people have the free will to choose what they want; and those choices can be moderate in nature. Just because something can be looked at as addictive or unhealthy, doesn't mean it has to be. It's up to us on how we wish to use food or alcohol. Whether you are moderate or abusive in your choice, it's still your choice.

M.

So is the choice of whether or not to observe the Word of Wisdom.  It's precisely because you're right... people have the free will to choose what they want.   That doesn't mean being free from any negative effects or consequences from that choice.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

So, you've never been drunk?

I have never seen anyone who drank at all who did get out-of-his-mind drunk at least once a year. Most I know do it a couple of times a month.

Lehi

 I have been, yes. 

But many people enjoy a few glasses of wine from time to time and have never been drunk in their life. It just doesn't work that way. I'm not advocating alcohol but I am a convert. My family collects wine, drinks it, and I've never seen my mom or dad drunk in their lives. Same with most of their friends. God knows I've had the opportunity. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by MormonGator

[Maureen]

8 minutes ago, unixknight said:

So is the choice of whether or not to observe the Word of Wisdom.  It's precisely because you're right... people have the free will to choose what they want.   That doesn't mean being free from any negative effects or consequences from that choice.

Never said there would not be negative effects from choices we make. If a person were to abuse food or alcohol, there would definitely be negative effects. Do you think there would be negative effects if people make moderate choices?

M.

[unixknight]

11 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Never said there would not be negative effects from choices we make. If a person were to abuse food or alcohol, there would definitely be negative effects. Do you think there would be negative effects if people make moderate choices?

M.

That depends on the effects of alcohol.  Sure, right now we hear about medical benefits form it, but as I said in a post earlier, Mormons live an average of 11 years longer than non-Mormon Americans.  That tells me something.  Do you know what else doctors have advocated the medical benefits of in the past?

• Tobacco
• Cocaine
• Laudnum
• Opium
• Electro-shock therapy

So if I have to choose between the current medical wisdom, and the Word of God, it's kind of a no-brainer for me

[unixknight]

7 minutes ago, Maureen said:

So you think that if the 19th or 20th century got it wrong, how can you trust current medicine. Hopefully some deductive reasoning would come into play.

M.

Of course deductive reasoning comes into play.  That's exactly my point.  I look at the overall health statistics of people who observe the Word of Wisdom vs. those who don't and I see a clear pattern.  From that I deduce that the Mormons are maintaining some kind of philosophy on healthy living that is demonstrably effective.  Meanwhile I hear people quoting some research or another claiming health benefits from moderate use of alcohol, and those people are using no deductive reasoning at all.  They're taking the word of a researcher for it because they like what he/she has to say.  Meanwhile they're living shorter lives, on average, than the people who are ignoring that research and sticking to their religious belief.

If your goal is to somehow prove that we're wrong for following the WoW (specifically, the prohibition on alcohol), you've got a real uphill battle, but I'm always happy to discuss as long as you like. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Maureen said:

I'm not sure that addiction is the only reason. I would say when a ultimatum is given for one's membership, that that person has to decide what's more important - the ability to worship and choose one's course or the ability to worship and be limited in how to choose one's course.

M. 

"Only" reason is irrelevant IMO. The wording you chose for the remainder is somewhat confusing, so I'm not going to try to address it.

Your profile reads "Protestant" and doesn't specify any particular sect, so I don't know if this will speak to your or not, but I'll try.  If a man told you that he really wanted to be a "Christian".  He really thought it was a great way of life and even great philosophy and lifestyle.  And he'd look forward to having a personal relationship with Christ.  But he could never give up his weekly homosexual orgies.  So, he's not going to bother.  What would you call that?  I'd call it addiction.

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Guest

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, Maureen said:

Let's change the question (someone said that recently).

Don't you always get drunk when you drink alcohol? The answer is No.

Even my ol' Army buddies, who regularly got drunk every weekend, didn't get drunk every time they drank, and I did not imply in the least that to drink is to get drunk.

But you did not answer my question: have you ever been drunk?

You see, it only takes one drunk behind the wheel, whether he's an alcoholic or a once-in-a-lifetime drunk to kill my granddaughter, or, as actually happened, kill my grandmother (along with twelve cars parked along the residential street where he was driving 80 mph).

There are no positive benefits from alcohol that cannot be achieved by other, non-toxic means.

Lehi

[David13]

On 3/7/2016 at 3:57 PM, Vort said:

To be specific, David: Any and all drinking of alcoholic beverages by a 21st-century Latter-day Saint is evil. I personally believe that alcohol consumption is never of any significant good, and almost always of at least some evil. But I recognize that those not under covenant likely won't see things that way. I doubt I would if I were not a Latter-day Saint. So there is no universal condemnation suggested.

I agree with that Vort.  I meant anyone who is not a Latter day Saint.

dc