Sci-Fi Theology Questions

[Ironhold]

Just because...

 

*Would aliens be eligible for baptism into the church?

*Could a truly sapient robot have a soul? 

 

Add your own!

[zil]

Do we only get to ask questions?  Or are we going to answer these too?

[Blackmarch]

33 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

Just because...

 

*Would aliens be eligible for baptism into the church?

*Could a truly sapient robot have a soul? 

 

Add your own!

1. Yes

2. Everything has a spirit.

[zil]

If Moroni leaves Kolob at 9:30 am KST (Kolob Standard Time), traveling at warp 8 toward Earth; and Paul leaves Earth at 9:30 UTC (on the same day), traveling at warp 7 toward Kolob, where and when will they meet?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

If Moroni leaves Kolob at 9:30 am KST (Kolob Standard Time), traveling at warp 8 toward Earth; and Paul leaves Earth at 9:30 UTC (on the same day), traveling at warp 7 toward Kolob, where and when will they meet?

At the event horizon near the Terrestrial Kingdom.

[zil]

And here's my brother's variation: "If Moroni Leaves Kolob traveling warp 9.9 at the same time Paul also leaves Kolob traveling at warp 9.9, both headed to earth, how could Moroni get there first?"

[Blackmarch]

The portrayal of religion in sci fi has been interesting to me.

 I really liked how babylon 5 handled it.. ( was surprised to find out the guy who directed b5 was athiest).

I also like Nivens known universe, it tends to go in interesting directions. Altho out of all the old religions the only one that really gets any face time is catholicism, otherwise kind of a generic judeo-christian type, along with the elevation of murphy and finagle into deities or sub deities. Where it gets interesting is where humanity and alien civilizations clash and mix.

[zil]

L.E. Modesitt jr includes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in almost all (if not all) his science fiction work (which is always the distant future of Earth or its people).  Of course, the Church has "evolved".  (He doesn't really like the Church.)  I find it fun to read his various versions of what will happen to the Church in the distant future, and the fact that it's always still around.

Love his fantasy novels.  I read his science fiction when he's taking to long to put out another fantasy novel and I'm going through withdrawals.

[Blackmarch]

40 minutes ago, zil said:

And here's my brother's variation: "If Moroni Leaves Kolob traveling warp 9.9 at the same time Paul also leaves Kolob traveling at warp 9.9, both headed to earth, how could Moroni get there first?"

they left from different sides of the planet, and were not equally distant from each other

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

they left from different sides of the planet, and were not equally distant from each other

I am instructed to inform you that this isn't a 3rd grade math problem (i.e. only a 3rd grade math problem would be that simple), and that at warp 9.9, the size of the planet is just a rounding error.

Personally, I thought it was a pretty good answer (though the size of the planet vs the total distance and rounding does sound kinda valid).

[Blackmarch]

Its warp 10 wherevthe real funky stuff happens

[zil]

7 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

Its warp 10 where the real funky stuff happens

Yes, according to my brother, if you actually managed to reach warp 10, you would be everywhere at once (guess God has figured that out), except that may only be true in one/some of the franchises.  This led me to theorize that if you managed to go faster than warp 10, you could reach nowhere (a truly amazing feat, since nowhere cannot exist*).

*Fair warning, if you ask for details, you may regret it.

[LeSellers]

11 hours ago, Ironhold said:

*Would aliens be eligible for baptism into the church?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is truly universal. His Atonement extends to all of God's creations, and, therefore aliens would be baptized thereinto. However, that Church exists on their own planets (just as there were churches in Jersualem and in Zerahemla), so we will not be involved in baptizing them here.

Lehi

[zil]

11 hours ago, zil said:

And here's my brother's variation: "If Moroni Leaves Kolob traveling warp 9.9 at the same time Paul also leaves Kolob traveling at warp 9.9, both headed to earth, how could Moroni get there first?"

:: SPOILER ALERT::

My brother's answers:

"Answer: There was a fissure in the space-time continuum"
"Alternate answer: Paul got caught in a tear in the fabric of space-time"

[Traveler]

One problem I have with science fiction in our culture is that it is comprised of much more fiction than science.  For the record, baptism is a covenant associated with the Fall of Adam.  All life forms that are not involved in the fall should not be baptized.  I assume this will be true for any life form not directly involved with earth.  In addition all non-humanoid (not man) life forms do not need baptism regardless of their involvement with earth.

 

Generally we tend to think of life in our universe as being similar to life as we understand it here on earth – I see no reason to make such an assumption.  I would assume that earth is a great exception and that it is very unlikely that we will find life subject to death – being that the fall is somewhat unique.  It is very interesting and telling to me that we have not encountered anything like life here on earth – anywhere else.  I do not think it is likely that we ever will.  In general it is my experience that we really do not discover anything we are not looking for.

 

Even if a greater intelligence tried to make itself known to us – it is quite likely most would go to great lengths to ignore such.  The prime example I give concerning this is G-d.  If the nature of G-d is outside of our paradigm – we go to great lengths to deny any existence of such a being – and if possible we will think to kill such a being.  (Jesus Christ I offer as proof) – Making such a being – if not literally, at least figuratively dead to us.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

 

3 hours ago, zil said:

:Paul got caught in a tear in the fabric of space-time"

So, when the veil in the temple rent ...???  Here come the langoliers.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Guest

[unixknight]

I really love you guys.

I sometimes ask myself similar questions when engaging in my sci-fi story writing hobby.  What would a universe look like in which there were both alien civilizations and the true LDS Church?  Would each inhabited world have had its own Savoir, would Jesus Christ's sacrifice save not only those on this world but others as well?  Might He have visited other worlds in the same way He visited the Americas?

What if an exploration ship from Earth encountered another world in which the Gospel was already known?  Would that prove beyond a doubt that the Church is true?  What the, would we need faith for?

Good sci-fi makes you think.  Such abundant opportunity there is in the sci-fi genre to think about these spiritual matters...

[Guest]

Star Trek (TOS) had an episode where they came across a civilization where they had developed television, but in other ways were similar to the Roman empire.  They had gladitorial arenas with sword fighting.  Kinda mixed up.

Throughout the storythe "rebels" were motivated by their worship of the Sun.

At the very end of the episode they were commenting that "solar worship" was known to have fallen away long before industrialization.  Yet this society seemed to continue it throughout the industrial era.

Finally, Uhura, who had not been with the away team said,"Oh, Captain!  Don't you see?  It isn't the Sun in the sky, but the Son of God."

Kirk, having his eyes opened, declared,"Caesar and Christ.  They had them both."

Spock,"Yes, remarkable.  It would seem that the two concepts are somewhat universal.  And often paired with one another." 

I could be butchering this dialogue.  But it was something like that.  I've slept a few years since I saw it.

[unixknight]

That bit of dialogue must have infuriated Gene Roddenberry.  He wasn't just an Atheist, he was on record as believing that religious belief is a mental illness. 

In 1967 NBC would have wanted there to be Christian-friendly dialogue to appeal to the viewers of the '60s, and Roddenberry didn't have sufficient creative control to stop that kind of stuff.  Another cool faith-affirming line comes from the episode "Who Mourns for Adonais?" in which the Enterprise crew encounters Apollo....  THE Apollo, who was an ancient traveler who, along with his fellows, were the basis for the ancient Greek pantheon.  At one point Kirk says something to the effect that we don't need gods... "We find the One quite sufficient." 

Contrast with Star Trek: The Next Generation, which was outright hostile to religion at times, reflecting Roddenberry's greater control in the early seasons.  That show mellowed out a bit as other producers gained more creative control, but some of it is just painful to watch with how breathtakingly self-righteous and arrogant the characters can be when discussing things like 20th Century culture or religious belief.

As was said earlier, the creator of Babylon 5, J Michael Straczynski, is an Atheist and yet treated religion with great respect in his show.  Most of the characters were religious, and gained strength from their faith.  Religion was treated very positively.  One tear jerker episode showed a mortally wounded character receiving Last Rites.  Every main character was religious and you knew the beliefs of most of them.  The closest we ever got in Star Trek TNG was  Picard dodging a question about it.  

Deep Space 9 was better, probably because Roddenberry was dead by the time that show was made (sorry, but it's true.) The Bajoran religion was treated with respect, Klingon religion was expanded on greatly, and Worf even scolded one of his co-workers for their lack of Faith.  Commander Sisko scolded his son once for making a snide remark about someone else's religious faith. 

The remake of Battlestar Galactica retained few of the LDS themes from the original, but did still try to take religion seriously, contrasting the polytheistic beliefs of the Colonials with the monotheism of the Cylons. 

[Guest]

When Picard died, it was Q who said, "Welcome to the afterlife, Jean-Luc.  You're dead."

Picard refused to believe Q was "God".  And the episode went on.  But that concept stuck in my mind until Q2 showed up in another episode and declared to Q,"Remember who you're talking to.  All-knowing.  All-seeing."  I took that to mean that Q2 was "God" in that universe, as the head Q.

But that was apparently abandoned in Voyager when they had the Q civil war.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Guest

[unixknight]

Even before that, in TNG, there was an episode in which Q was banished from the Continuum and became an ordinary human.

Most of TNG's skepticism of religion was subtle, like in the episode "Who Watches the Watchers" a Federation anthropology team was accidentally revealed to a low-tech culture.  The locals believed that Picard was some kind of god, and the episode implied that belief in such things was a primitive social trait and that, if anything, gods were just highly advanced aliens. 

I was also thinking of a Star Trek: Enterprise episode in which the source of Dr. Phlox's moral beliefs was science, as if Science itself had become his moral code.  (In this episode, a planet with 2 intelligent races was close to losing one of them to a disease.  Phlox came up with a solution, but was reluctant to administer it because, in his view, evolution had selected that race for extinction and it would be morally wrong for him to intervene.  Makes one wonder how someone with an attitude like that became a doctor in the first place, doesn't it?)

[unixknight]

Even before that, in TNG, there was an episode in which Q was banished from the Continuum and became an ordinary human.

Most of TNG's skepticism of religion was subtle, like in the episode "Who Watches the Watchers" a Federation anthropology team was accidentally revealed to a low-tech culture.  The locals believed that Picard was some kind of god, and the episode implied that belief in such things was a primitive social trait and that, if anything, gods were just highly advanced aliens. 

I was also thinking of a Star Trek: Enterprise episode in which the source of Dr. Phlox's moral beliefs was science, as if Science itself had become his moral code.  (In this episode, a planet with 2 intelligent races was close to losing one of them to a disease.  Phlox came up with a solution, but was reluctant to administer it because, in his view, evolution had selected that race for extinction and it would be morally wrong for him to intervene.  Makes one wonder how someone with an attitude like that became a doctor in the first place, doesn't it?)

[Guest]

Back to the OP.  Card maintained religion in the Ender series.  Ender himself was a child of a Mormon and a Catholic.  He made a big deal about how both faiths believed in big families, but due to overpopulation legislation, they were unable to fulfill that desire.  Apart from that, it was largely ignored.

Clarke indicated in Childhood's End that all the religions of the world were disproven when the Overlords came and showed video records of the founders of various faiths.  The idea was not that they were not good men or that they were charlatans, but rather that they "seemed less divine".  They were just ordinary men with some good ideas.

Douglas (Hitchiker series) of course made a mockery of religion, but still gave kudos to Jesus, "And nearly 2000 years after they nailed a man to a tree for saying what a good idea it would be if we were all nice to each other..."

With exceptions, I think it's a safe bet to understand that sci-fi generally is atheist.

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Guest

[unixknight]

Don't forget in Speaker for the Dead that the Lusitania colony was heavily Catholic.

I think the atheism in sci-fi is a side effect of this prevailing cultural mentality that religion and science must be at odds.  As if there's some kind of inverse proportion between the advancement of a civilization and it's level of religious faith.

What I've noticed though, is the most interesting, compelling sci-fi has a spiritual component of some kind, even if it's subtle.  In the novel Contact by Carl Sagan, the visit with the aliens at the end was much, much longer and more interesting than in the movie adaptation.  It described how this advanced alien civilization had computed pi to billions of digits, and had found a repeating pattern that MUST have been the result of an intelligent designer of the universe.  Sagan himself was agnostic (maybe atheist, not sure) and yet his novel promoted the notion of an Intelligent Designer of the universe whose presence could be proven by an extremely advanced technology.

[Guest]

Would a sentient robot have a soul.  Hmmm.

Bicentennial Man: Yes. (As written by an atheist).  
Foundation series (same author - Asimov): Humans don't have souls either.

2010: The year we make contact: Yes.

Other World: Yes.

Star Trek (TNG - Data's trial): Don't know if either Data or humans have souls.