Light of truth - agency and free will - Deja vu

[The Folk Prophet]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

You do realize that all the die before reaching accountability, according to your definition, have no agency. 

That is what I said.

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Interesting. Here's my point by point read of his post:

....

This is counter to the teachings of the prophets and the scriptures. We do have agency and free will in this life and we have the only control that is necessary for that. Those who do not have such control (children, crazy folk, etc.) are not accountable and do not exercise agency.

 

It would help me greatly if you would provide the scripture that indicates agency in this life, that is not connected in some way to the pre-existence and choices we made there.  I can find references that G-d gave us agency in Eden (before the fall).  I would like to see a scripture that you claim - clearly indicates that G-d has given all mankind agency in mortality. 

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

16 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It would help me greatly if you would provide the scripture that indicates agency in this life, that is not connected in some way to the pre-existence and choices we made there.  I can find references that G-d gave us agency in Eden (before the fall).  I would like to see a scripture that you claim - clearly indicates that G-d has given all mankind agency in mortality. 

As I understand scripture we were given agency in the pre-existence and the circumstances of this life are a result of our choices there.  That we knew what we were getting into and we - in the full light of truth - chose to (exercised agency) to participate.  I am thinking our only disagreement is if G-d kept secrets from us that he (in the full light of truth knew).  I am rejecting the doctrine G-d the Father kept any knowledge of light and truth from us in the pre-existance - I believe that if we asked he would tell us truth.  I believe that the true doctrine is that Satan lies (hides truth) and G-d does not.

 

The Traveler

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Traveler

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

That is what I said.

I believe that they do have agency and that they exercised that agency to chose their circumstance and destiny (as we all did ) for this life.

 

The Traveler

Edited March 23, 2016 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I would like to see a scripture that you claim - clearly indicates that G-d has given all mankind agency in mortality. 

2 Nephi 2:27

Edit: For anyone too lazy (like I often am) to look it up, I added the link and am posting it here:

"Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself."

Edited March 23, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[zil]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I can find references that G-d gave us agency in Eden (before the fall)

Not in Eden, before the Plan of Salvation was presented: Moses 4:3

"3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;"

...Satan could not seek to take away something we had not yet been given.

2 Nephi 2 is a fabulous discussion of agency and all that surrounds it.

TFP can correctly say that mortal children before the age of accountability, have no agency, if we use his definition of agency, provided earlier in the thread. If you use my definition of agency and accountability (also provided earlier), then they did have agency and are accountable (but excused from any and all negative consequences, cuz they didn't know better).  Neither idea is in conflict, they just present the same belief using different linguistics.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

As I understand scripture we were given agency in the pre-existence and the circumstances of this life are a result of our choices there.

Agreed, though we should be very careful about attempting mortal correlation and judgement of current conditions and previous behavior (e.g. we should not say: "He's handicapped so he was wicked in pre-mortality." - the New Testament makes it perfectly clear that's nonsense.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

That we knew what we were getting into and we - in the full light of truth - chose to (exercised agency) to participate.

As long as you mean full light and truth of the Plan of Salvation, as opposed to omniscience, we agree.  If you mean to imply that all of God's children were omniscient when the plan was presented, I disagree.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am thinking our only disagreement is if G-d kept secrets from us that he (in the full light of truth knew).  I am rejecting the doctrine G-d the Father kept any knowledge of light and truth from us in the pre-existance - I believe that if we asked he would tell us truth.

There are differences between malicious concealment, lies, and people not being capable of handling more.  I reject the notion that all of pre-mortal humanity were omniscient at that point.  Abraham 3:19-28 (though I'm only quoting 19)

"19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all."

If we were all omniscient, there would not be some more intelligent than others - the two are incompatible, there's no such thing as "more omniscient".  Thus, Christ was indeed omniscient before mortality.  God of course was omniscient long before this.  Not all of us were (some may have been).  But we all knew sufficient.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe that the true doctrine is that Satan lies (hides truth) and G-d does not.

Amen.  But my lack of knowledge, then or now, does not mean God was hiding things or lying - it means I had/have not learned all things yet.

[The Folk Prophet]

5 hours ago, zil said:

TFP can correctly say that mortal children before the age of accountability, have no agency, if we use his definition of agency, provided earlier in the thread. If you use my definition of agency and accountability (also provided earlier), then they did have agency and are accountable (but excused from any and all negative consequences, cuz they didn't know better).  Neither idea is in conflict, they just present the same belief using different linguistics.

Except if we're being linguistically picky and accurate, being accountable is the direct opposite of being excused from any and all negative consequences. You're basically saying that they are accountable and also not accountable.

I mean, if we go to Merriam-Webster for Accountable we get:

 

: required to explain actions or decisions to someone
: required to be responsible for something

Can we really say that children fit this definition (or any) of accountable...

I know....picking at nits.

5 hours ago, zil said:

There are differences between malicious concealment, lies, and people not being capable of handling more.  I reject the notion that all of pre-mortal humanity were omniscient at that point.  Abraham 3:19-28 (though I'm only quoting 19)

"19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all."

If we were all omniscient, there would not be some more intelligent than others - the two are incompatible, there's no such thing as "more omniscient".  Thus, Christ was indeed omniscient before mortality.  God of course was omniscient long before this.  Not all of us were (some may have been).  But we all knew sufficient.

Amen.  But my lack of knowledge, then or now, does not mean God was hiding things or lying - it means I had/have not learned all things yet.

Adding to this: The idea that God not revealing all things to all people makes God a liar is a bunch of malarkey. Clearly God does not reveal all things. Clearly God has secrets and "mysteries". I see no reason to presume, as Traveler seems insistent upon doing, that God had not kept things from us for His wise purposes in the pre-existence, and the idea that doing so makes God a liar is just silly.

[zil]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

: required to explain actions or decisions to someone

Well, the child will be a spirit when this occurs, and could correctly explain, "I didn't know any better, this is my account."  Thus accounting for his/her decisions. (Please excuse me while I go catch those nits that just ran by!)

Seriously, you've already got me pondering and trying to find better ways to make my mortal mind understand these concepts, after which I will attempt to find better ways to explain my thoughts (not necessarily here, just in general, because I like to be able to explain what I think, in case it comes up).  I think your comments are most significant because we need to ensure we are always clear about the innocence of little children - that they don't need baptism, especially.  And my linguistics could lead someone to believe I'm teaching something contrary, and I do NOT want that!

[Anddenex]

22 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Interesting. Here's my point by point read of his post:

• We can't argue that we have free will and agency in this life because we don't have total control.
• Choices we made before this life have far reaching implications and therefore our destinies are set in stone
• Truth doesn't alter our ability to exercise free will - the more truth we have the more the more agency we have.
• The definition of agency is not how we react to things we cannot control.
• We exercise our free will to make choices about what our life would be and now we're just riding the roller coaster of life as it plays out without further ability to alter the course.
• If someone else imposes a situation on us then we do not have free will or agency.
• We must have had all the knowledge God did in the pre-existence.
• We cannot reject the Celestial Kingdom unless we fully understand what we are rejecting.
• We can't be obedient unless we have understanding.
• We can only repent because we are ignorant, if we sin against full light and truth there is no forgiveness.
• Knowing our outcomes wouldn't cause us to be less disengaged.
• If we act in faith we'll come to realize that we already know all the above (which kingdom we're already destined to be in, and the path that is already set for us in life)

Maybe by way of interest you can address these points where they differ from any you have addressed. ??

Here's my point by point according to what you have presented:

We can't argue that we have free will and agency in this life because we don't have total control.

In my initial response to Traveler I mentioned, "If I controlled all my circumstances, in totality, how then might I truly be tried?" His notion of total control causes me to ponder our Father in heaven and whether or not he does have total control, nothing acts upon him; although he appears to act upon everything (or everything obeys his command, by his "word" things are done and obeyed).  So the concept of total control is intriguing to me. Its relation to agency, and needing complete control to have agency, doesn't appear correct...which is why I wanted to learn more of why he believes the way he does.

Choices we made before this life have far reaching implications and therefore our destinies are set in stone

Now this concept was intriguing due to the correlation I believe with "predicated laws." I didn't feel though he was saying they were set in stone, but that we had knowledge of consequences if we misused our agency, or maybe "misused" is not an appropriate term.  Agency would have not been misused but possibly similar to Satan. I understood Traveler meanings similar to prophecy.  Does prophecy remove agency?  Prophecy does not remove agency, it simply foretells the future, according to agency. I wish I could find the thread of the quote someone mentioned, given by a prophet/apostle?, specifying that some of the sons and daughters of God who desired earthly pleasures will, rather than honoring God's will (due to their agency) chose a life that would ultimately land them in the Telestial kingdom. They would have been warned, and despite the warning they chose that life -- not set in stone.  Similar to Alma who told the city that if they did not repent God would destroy their city in one day.  They did not repent and suffered the foretold event.  This is what I felt Traveler was referring to...and wanted to know more about his thoughts pertaining to this notion.  

Truth doesn't alter our ability to exercise free will - the more truth we have the more the more agency we have.

Another principle I was hoping my principles would allow him to clarify his thoughts. The more truth we obtain the more inline are our decisions with God's will. I wanted to find out if this is what he was referring to also. I believe I agree with your clarification with regard to agency, which is highlighted in our Doctrine & Covenants -- the salvation and condemnation of the sons and daughters of God is as simple as receiving/rejecting light.

The definition of agency is not how we react to things we cannot control.

Agency is our ability to "act and not be acted upon." This is a principle he highlighted, and also reason I wanted to understand where his knowledge stems regarding control which he specified in response to me, "I am not sure we have complete control but I do believe we exercised agency, free will and choice between viable and possible options."

I wondered if he meant to say "act" upon our circumstances and from his response I think this is what he was referring to.  Our ability to act in circumstances we cannot control and yet because we can act we have control over our circumstances, which was intriguing to me and I was hoping in his next response to mine that further clarification would be provided. The concept he presents intrigues me in correlation with God, who appears to have complete control.  

We exercise our free will to make choices about what our life would be and now we're just riding the roller coaster of life as it plays out without further ability to alter the course.

I believe this correlates with this section already shared, "Choices we made before this life have far reaching implications and therefore our destinies are set in stone," so I would refer back to my answer there. A concept in the Bible I have pondered and haven't come to any solid conclusion, an exact principle of truth, is how the Lord specified King David was a man after his own heart, and yet when the people wanted a king the Lord prophecies of what these kings would do, and they did do as he prophesied and told the people that they would experience if they desired a king and God gave them a king.  At that moment I think it could be described as "riding the roller coaster of life" otherwise God would have been a liar, and yet people can repent, and yet although God provides a means of escape -- how many of his children accept it after they have made a decision, which God prophesied of events, and those events did infact occur.  Would it be similar, and it is plausible, that some of our brothers and sisters desired a specific earth life.  God forewarned of what would occur, and they chose that path anyway, thus they will experience exactly what God specified and will receive the glory he forewarned.  Could they have changed, yes, but would they? I wanted him to express more of his thoughts pertaining to this as what was expressed wasn't as clear, and this is what I understood him mentioning.

Example in the New Testament to Peter, you will deny me thrice before the cock crows.  In each event, he had every right to choose not to deny but chose to deny even though he was told he would and said he would not. This is what I thought when he specified this principle, and was hoping he would clarify.

If someone else imposes a situation on us then we do not have free will or agency.

Control again, and I refer back to my other responses. I would disagree, and yet the concept of control in relation to the Father (even Christ) is very intriguing to me.  Christ had full control, I believe, of his life.  No one could have done anything to him, he had the power, and he allowed the circumstances to fall into place for the atonement. Intriguing, but I don't believe what people impose upon me limits my agency, they may limit some of my choices but not my agency -- referring back to idea of salvation and condemnation.

We must have had all the knowledge God did in the pre-existence.

This notion I can't accept at the moment. I do not believe we did, or all of us did.  I would not be surprised if Christ did as he is one with the Father. This relates to the notion in scripture "sufficient" knowledge, which I believe is all we need.

We cannot reject the Celestial Kingdom unless we fully understand what we are rejecting.

The notion of "fully" is where I would diverge, reverting again to "sufficient" knowledge is enough to witness and condemn us, or to exalt us.  We can't be saved in ignorance neither do I think we are condemned by ignorance (baptism for the dead, missionaries in the spirit world).  People are taught sufficiently, and they either accept or reject. I haven't received a response yet from The Traveler regarding this idea.

We can't be obedient unless we have understanding.

The key term here I believe is "understanding" rather than "full knowledge." Faith is not a perfect knowledge; however, can we be obedient without understanding? In my experience, my obedience increases as I understand a principle of doctrine more. With understanding of laws and commandments we obey further, or we reject. This doesn't reject the notion of faith, as our knowledge may not be perfect, but we do have understanding of the reason for.  At the same time, sometimes we simply obey even if we do not understand.  So, I can see the notion both ways. 

We can only repent because we are ignorant, if we sin against full light and truth there is no forgiveness.

I believe we agree on your thoughts and comments on this one. I really don't have anything else to offer or any differing thoughts.

Knowing our outcomes wouldn't cause us to be less disengaged.

Same. Why try if you know your kingdom is Telestial. I think his point was that the more knowledge we have the more we use our agency to be more engaged toward light and truth.

If we act in faith we'll come to realize that we already know all the above (which kingdom we're already destined to be in, and the path that is already set for us in life)

I didn't perceive this in any of his thoughts. If we are acting in faith, learning more truth, and acting in truth there is only one kingdom we will reach and that is Celestial. This is more of what I understood him presenting. I can see though why this might have been presented as an option, but I am not sure, and that is something Traveler can clarify.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Anddenex

[The Folk Prophet]

@Anddenex Traveler has made it fairly clear -- though he refuses to say it plainly -- that we knew which kingdom we would be in and we have no agency in this life because our destinations are determined in the pre-earth. If Traveler is not saying this then it falls to him to refute it. But every point he's made concerning agency in every discussion over quite some time has supported that he does, indeed, believe this.

[The Folk Prophet]

@Anddenex, incidentally, I do not thing "to act and not be acted upon" defines agency. It is one component of the whole agency situation. But the same scripture also plainly tells us that we will be acted upon by the punishment of the law at the great and last day. That is agency. To be accountable for one's own acts.

[estradling75]

49 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

To be accountable for one's own acts.

I think the atonement needs to be explicitly placed to help see all the pieces. (Yes I know people are assuming it but that makes it vague in this discussion.)

So to spring off the quote above... I think it would be helpful to state to whom are we accountable for our actions?  I think the answer to that is divine Law or Justice.  And with that then we see how the Atonement fits in.  The Atonement changes our accountability from Divine Law or Justice... to Jesus Christ.  He is the one to whom all Judgement is given.  He is the one that turns us over to the demands of Justice or accepts our repentance and lets his suffering pay the bill.

It is because of Jesus Christ that those without Law (or knowledge) do not suffer the demands of Justice when they break the Law.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@Anddenex, incidentally, I do not thing "to act and not be acted upon" defines agency. It is one component of the whole agency situation. But the same scripture also plainly tells us that we will be acted upon by the punishment of the law at the great and last day. That is agency. To be accountable for one's own acts.

Agreed, no disagreement here.

[Traveler]

13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@Anddenex Traveler has made it fairly clear -- though he refuses to say it plainly -- that we knew which kingdom we would be in and we have no agency in this life because our destinations are determined in the pre-earth. If Traveler is not saying this then it falls to him to refute it. But every point he's made concerning agency in every discussion over quite some time has supported that he does, indeed, believe this.

 

I am sorry I have not responded to questions on this thread sooner – life happens and there are other things that I have given higher priority.   I have labored diligently to make my opinion of this matter known.  It involves a few givens and that if the givens are true what I draw as conclusions.  So in review:

First Given: In the pre-existence the Plan of Salvation was presented by the Father.  That plan included:

 1. That we through our agency choose freedom and life (which comes through the Messiah and the Father’s Plan of Salvation) or we could use or agency to choose bondage and death by following Satan. It is important to know and understand that this was the choice of agency (referenced by TFP in the scripture 2Nephi 2:27) exercised before we were born. 

2. What the scriptures refer to as The Creation. 

3. The Fall of man. 

4. A mortal experience where all of fallen man would – One. Receive a mortal physical body.  Two. Die; suffering the pains and sorrow of spiritual and physical death which are the wages of sin.

5. Following our probation (mortal life plus our experience in the spirit world of either spiritual paradise or spirit prison) we will be resurrected (physically and spiritually) to return to The Father to glory in one of the Father Kingdoms.

 

As we contemplate our mortal life that we are all currently now experiencing I have speculated and come to believe that our Father in Heaven knows exactly and preciously how our life will turn out and to which of his Kingdoms we will conclude to live in.  Though he knows (which means it is cast in stone?) I believe we still have agency.  I speculate that in the pre-existence all that the Father knew that we desired to know about our life was made known to us – nothing what-so-ever was withheld from us.  This would not make us omniscient because we would not have “All Knowledge” just all knowledge that pertains to our mortal experience and not all other knowledge which would also include the fate of everybody else. 

I am suggesting that G-d the Father knows all the details of our lives and that I see no reason that he would withhold any knowledge concerning us – from us – especially if we “knocked, asked and sought for such knowledge.  It seems logical to me that this knowledge was available to and that we exercised our agency to accept the plan and follow G-d and that we rejected Satan.

If G-d knows something that will be – is it cast in stone to be so as he knew before it was?  I think it is.  I believe agency was and is preserved despite G-d’s knowledge because of two possibilities:

First, that we knew in the full light of truth about the details of our mortality – I see no argument that even comes close to indicating this is impossible or even remotely improbable that such detailed information was knowable. 

Second, I believe that we (through our agency) participated in the planning the circumstances and events of our mortal lives.  Were we in total control?  Not really – just like we are not in total control of who is called as bishop but we exercise our agency and sustain our bishop.  I also know if we have good reason not to sustain our bishop – that individual will not be called as our bishop – so we do have some control and agency and I believe that we so tool part in the pre-existence.  How much did we contribute and how much did we sustain – I do not know but I am thinking that our participation was a part of G-d’s plan and that we had final say in sustaining our involvement in that plan.

 

If anyone has a better resolution as to how G-d knows what will be and despite his knowledge how our agency is preserved – I would like to know the logic; to how you came up with something completely different.

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

On 3/25/2016 at 9:14 PM, estradling75 said:

I think the atonement needs to be explicitly placed to help see all the pieces. (Yes I know people are assuming it but that makes it vague in this discussion.)

So to spring off the quote above... I think it would be helpful to state to whom are we accountable for our actions?  I think the answer to that is divine Law or Justice.  And with that then we see how the Atonement fits in.  The Atonement changes our accountability from Divine Law or Justice... to Jesus Christ.  He is the one to whom all Judgement is given.  He is the one that turns us over to the demands of Justice or accepts our repentance and lets his suffering pay the bill.

It is because of Jesus Christ that those without Law (or knowledge) do not suffer the demands of Justice when they break the Law.

This is a good addition/clarification. But it also doesn't change the fact that we are accountable for our own actions.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 3/25/2016 at 9:45 AM, Traveler said:

1. That we through our agency choose freedom and life (which comes through the Messiah and the Father’s Plan of Salvation) or we could use or agency to choose bondage and death by following Satan. It is important to know and understand that this was the choice of agency (referenced by TFP in the scripture 2Nephi 2:27) exercised before we were born. 

Seems to me like you're ignoring the "in the flesh" part of "men are free according to the flesh".

On 3/25/2016 at 9:45 AM, Traveler said:

4. A mortal experience where all of fallen man would – One. Receive a mortal physical body.  Two. Die; suffering the pains and sorrow of spiritual and physical death which are the wages of sin.

You missed on. A pretty big one. It strikes me that the fact that you insist upon either ignoring or purposefully avoiding that actual scriptural purpose of life as given by God is the core of your misunderstanding on this issue. Lest someone accuse me of being cryptic, I quote from Abraham 3:25: "And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;"

On 3/25/2016 at 9:45 AM, Traveler said:

I have speculated and come to believe that our Father in Heaven knows exactly and preciously how our life will turn out and to which of his Kingdoms we will conclude to live in.

This strikes me as a strange thing to have 'speculated' or 'come to conclude' this -- not because it isn't accurate, but because it so obviously is. What speculation is  needed? What conclusion needs to be drawn? Of course God knows the beginning and the end.

On 3/25/2016 at 9:45 AM, Traveler said:

 Though he knows (which means it is cast in stone?) I believe we still have agency. 

I agree. Except you've made statements in the past that you believe we don't have agency in mortality (did I misread you?) and that references to agency in the scriptures were 'sarcastic'. What did you mean if you didn't mean what you said?

On 3/25/2016 at 9:45 AM, Traveler said:

I speculate that in the pre-existence all that the Father knew that we desired to know about our life was made known to us – nothing what-so-ever was withheld from us.

There is no valid support to this speculation. None. It may be. It doesn't make sense to me. But it certainly isn't supported by any teachings or thoughts ever given by any of the prophets or apostles.

On 3/25/2016 at 9:45 AM, Traveler said:

Second, I believe that we (through our agency) participated in the planning the circumstances and events of our mortal lives.

Perhaps. It's speculative. Once again...no support. Maybe. It has no bearing on agency if we did or did not. God knows how to test us better than we would have known ourselves. It strikes me that if we were part of planning our own test that we would be likely to make the test bias in our favors instead of just and fair. God is the only one who can perfectly plan anything. We may have had some roll in it, I suppose, but it isn't reasonable to me that we had that much say.

Once more, you seem to be ignoring the whole mortal life being a test thing.

On 3/25/2016 at 9:45 AM, Traveler said:

If anyone has a better resolution as to how G-d knows what will be and despite his knowledge how our agency is preserved – I would like to know the logic; to how you came up with something completely different.

I'll have to research it when I have some time, but I'm fairly sure this has been address time and again by our leaders. It's not like it's a novel question that no one else has thought of. If God knows everything, including which kingdom we'll end up in, then how do we have any choice in the matter? I'll see what I can find. But really, agency is about (as I've said again and again) accountability. It's less about choosing which kingdom we'll end up in as it is about the fact that when we end up in the kingdom where God already knows we'll be, it will be by our own hands, our own choices, our own actions, etc. that we are there.

Edited March 26, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

On Saturday, March 26, 2016 at 5:26 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Seems to me like you're ignoring the "in the flesh" part of "men are free according to the flesh".

You missed on. A pretty big one. It strikes me that the fact that you insist upon either ignoring or purposefully avoiding that actual scriptural purpose of life as given by God is the core of your misunderstanding on this issue. Lest someone accuse me of being cryptic, I quote from Abraham 3:25: "And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;"

This strikes me as a strange thing to have 'speculated' or 'come to conclude' this -- not because it isn't accurate, but because it so obviously is. What speculation is  needed? What conclusion needs to be drawn? Of course God knows the beginning and the end.

I agree. Except you've made statements in the past that you believe we don't have agency in mortality (did I misread you?) and that references to agency in the scriptures were 'sarcastic'. What did you mean if you didn't mean what you said?

There is no valid support to this speculation. None. It may be. It doesn't make sense to me. But it certainly isn't supported by any teachings or thoughts ever given by any of the prophets or apostles.

Perhaps. It's speculative. Once again...no support. Maybe. It has no bearing on agency if we did or did not. God knows how to test us better than we would have known ourselves. It strikes me that if we were part of planning our own test that we would be likely to make the test bias in our favors instead of just and fair. God is the only one who can perfectly plan anything. We may have had some roll in it, I suppose, but it isn't reasonable to me that we had that much say.

Once more, you seem to be ignoring the whole mortal life being a test thing.

I'll have to research it when I have some time, but I'm fairly sure this has been address time and again by our leaders. It's not like it's a novel question that no one else has thought of. If God knows everything, including which kingdom we'll end up in, then how do we have any choice in the matter? I'll see what I can find. But really, agency is about (as I've said again and again) accountability. It's less about choosing which kingdom we'll end up in as it is about the fact that when we end up in the kingdom where God already knows we'll be, it will be by our own hands, our own choices, our own actions, etc. that we are there.

I find your interpertation of the scriptures flawed.  As I have already stated - As I understand the scriptures those that dwell in the presents of G-d are in the full light of truth.  I reject your notion that G-d would there (or ever) foster incomplete generalities - Sorry, I understand that we see this differently and I think you take too much of our current state to be what was before the fall.  That we now live with incomplete generalities is because we are fallen and no longer "in His presents".  It is my understanding that to not have access to the full light of truth is, of necessity and by defination, what it means to NOT be in the presents of G-d.  If you find any scripture and teaching of any LDS authority that teaches that it is possible to be in G-d's presents and be denied the light of truth - I would indeed be most interested.  But and unless you do find such teaching - I have coucluded your opinion is missing very important and necessary elements.

 

As a side note concerning "a test thing".  I do not see testing as a means to destroy (Damn) but rather as a means to slavage, prepair and make pure.  The term Salvation has the same root as salvage - which means to seperate that which is of value from what is has no value - or as the scriptures indicate to seperate the light from the darkness.  You seem to think of a test is a means to condemn - whereas I see a test as the means to make pure and holy.  For me testing is the means by which we are made whole, complete, holy or perfect - it seem that you see testing only as an excuse to condemn.  To me the "refeiner's fire" is the means by which that which is precious is made pure.  I would explan more but I am under the impression that it is not so much that you cannot see as it is that you will not see.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I find your interpertation of the scriptures flawed. 

I'm not interpreting the scriptures. I am accepting what has been taught to me by those who have the right and authority to interpret the scriptures, and as long as you have theories that are counter to theirs you will stand on the wrong side of things.

[Traveler]

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 7:20 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not interpreting the scriptures. I am accepting what has been taught to me by those who have the right and authority to interpret the scriptures, and as long as you have theories that are counter to theirs you will stand on the wrong side of things.

My theories:

1.    Man in the pre-existence was spirit - which is intelligence or the light of truth - Your response – This is not what the scriptures say or what is taught by general Authorities.  Not sure, why you disagree or think this is not LDS doctrine

2.    G-d knows all truth – meaning that he knew what kingdom we will be resurrected to before the fall when we were all present in the pre-existence.  – Your response – Not sure, you seem to be very vague but since you disagree with me I assume you believe and purport that scriptures and General Authorities specifically teach G-d does not know for sure how things will turn out.

3.    In the pre-existence G-d did not withhold any knowledge or information from us or any of his children that desired to know the full truth of anything pertaining to his Plan of Salvation.  – Your response – You believe that the scriptures and General Authorities specifically teach that G-d only gave us generalities (the definition of lies).  He did not want us to have access to the full truth before we accepted or rejected his Plan of Salvation.

4.    That truth is a necessary element of agency.  – Your response – You believe that the scriptures and General Authorities specifically deny any relationship between truth and agency.  That as long as there is a choice, regardless if anyone is allowed knowledge to what the choice is, that there is agency.

5.    That only in the full light of truth (including circumstance and other initial conditions or what was – what is happening and why or what is and inevitable conclusions or what will be) can agency be exercised.   – Your response – You believe that the scriptures and General Authorities specifically teach that if we know and have access to the full light of truth (as G-d does) that the only possible outcome is that we will make evil and bad choices.

Since your response is that you claim that my theories and speculation are contrary to scripture and what General Authorities teach – I assume your responses to my theories are as listed above.  I am thinking there is possible misunderstanding between you and me – My question at this point is – Have I misunderstood you or is it possible you have misunderstood me?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

1.    Man in the pre-existence was spirit - which is intelligence or the light of truth - Your response – This is not what the scriptures say or what is taught by general Authorities.  Not sure, why you disagree or think this is not LDS doctrine

I did not give that response.

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

2.    G-d knows all truth – meaning that he knew what kingdom we will be resurrected to before the fall when we were all present in the pre-existence.  – Your response – Not sure, you seem to be very vague but since you disagree with me I assume you believe and purport that scriptures and General Authorities specifically teach G-d does not know for sure how things will turn out.

I did not give that response. In fact I gave exactly the opposite response. I'm not sure how you find this vague. You must be trying to misunderstand me. Here: I'll quote myself:

On 3/26/2016 at 5:26 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Of course God knows the beginning and the end.

 

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

3.    In the pre-existence G-d did not withhold any knowledge or information from us or any of his children that desired to know the full truth of anything pertaining to his Plan of Salvation.  – Your response – You believe that the scriptures and General Authorities specifically teach that G-d only gave us generalities (the definition of lies).  He did not want us to have access to the full truth before we accepted or rejected his Plan of Salvation.

A. That is not the definition of lies. B. I said "maybe". Here, I'll quote myself again since you seem to be either missing or ignoring what I'm actually saying:

On 3/26/2016 at 5:26 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

It may be.

 

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

4.    That truth is a necessary element of agency.  – Your response – You believe that the scriptures and General Authorities specifically deny any relationship between truth and agency.  That as long as there is a choice, regardless if anyone is allowed knowledge to what the choice is, that there is agency.

What the crap? Seriously. Where did you read that I believe the scriptures and General Authorities specifically deny any relationship between truth and agency. If you're just going to make up what my position is then this is an entirely useless waste of my time! Seriously?! See the post here again. Specifically:

Quote

• Truth doesn't alter our ability to exercise free will - the more truth we have the more the more agency we have.

This is true, 

How can you entirely miss these very, very plain responses and then characterize my position totally inaccurately. Are you being purposefully dense on the matter to avoid the real discussion?

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

5.    That only in the full light of truth (including circumstance and other initial conditions or what was – what is happening and why or what is and inevitable conclusions or what will be) can agency be exercised.   – Your response – You believe that the scriptures and General Authorities specifically teach that if we know and have access to the full light of truth (as G-d does) that the only possible outcome is that we will make evil and bad choices.

 

And...once again...I have never said anything of the sort.

Not every point you made is based in inaccuracy. But your conclusion is. That is what is counter to the scriptures and the teachings of the authorities -- and I have clearly stated this again and again. It is your position on the nature of agency, what it means to have agency, how we can and do exercise agency in mortality, etc., that is wrong. And I have addressed this repeatedly, including specific and plain links given here: 

 ...that shows exactly what the church's teachings are on agency.

You have said in various past posts:

"Our agency is an expression of things as they are to come when we play those things out as they are."

"I believe that when the scriptures speak of being an agent unto ourselves that the reference is somewhat sarcastic and thus interpreted incorrectly for we cannot determine anything of ourselves."

" But the reality is that we are not nor can we actually be agents unto ourselves."

"being an agent unto ourselves is a false concept that Satan uses in hope of ruling over us through death."

 

etc...

These conclusions you have drawn concerning agency are false and contrary to what the church teaches concerning the matter.

Edited March 31, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 8:06 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

I did not give that response.

I did not give that response. In fact I gave exactly the opposite response. I'm not sure how you find this vague. You must be trying to misunderstand me. Here: I'll quote myself:

 

A. That is not the definition of lies. B. I said "maybe". Here, I'll quote myself again since you seem to be either missing or ignoring what I'm actually saying:

 

What the crap? Seriously. Where did you read that I believe the scriptures and General Authorities specifically deny any relationship between truth and agency. If you're just going to make up what my position is then this is an entirely useless waste of my time! Seriously?! See the post here again. Specifically:

How can you entirely miss these very, very plain responses and then characterize my position totally inaccurately. Are you being purposefully dense on the matter to avoid the real discussion?

And...once again...I have never said anything of the sort.

Not every point you made is based in inaccuracy. But your conclusion is. That is what is counter to the scriptures and the teachings of the authorities -- and I have clearly stated this again and again. It is your position on the nature of agency, what it means to have agency, how we can and do exercise agency in mortality, etc., that is wrong. And I have addressed this repeatedly, including specific and plain links given here:

 ...that shows exactly what the church's teachings are on agency.

You have said in various past posts:

"Our agency is an expression of things as they are to come when we play those things out as they are."

"I believe that when the scriptures speak of being an agent unto ourselves that the reference is somewhat sarcastic and thus interpreted incorrectly for we cannot determine anything of ourselves."

" But the reality is that we are not nor can we actually be agents unto ourselves."

"being an agent unto ourselves is a false concept that Satan uses in hope of ruling over us through death."

 

etc...

These conclusions you have drawn concerning agency are false and contrary to what the church teaches concerning the matter.

Are you interested in a response?  Or is your mind made up?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

Are you interested in a response? 

I can't answer that until I see the response, as some responses are interesting and some are not. But if you mean to ask me if I'm willing to consider a view that is contrary to what has been taught by the scriptures and the prophets...then no, I'm not. That's not to say the response might not be interesting. But if your objective is to convince me then you will not...and if your objective is to convince others then I'll probably be there standing in your way. It's kind of what I do.

Don't get me wrong. You seem to be missing the fact that I do not disagree with everything you say. But when you conclude that something plainly taught is mistaken then we will be at odds.

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

Or is your mind made up?

On what?

That man is an agent unto himself?

Why, yes it is.

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I can't answer that until I see the response, as some responses are interesting and some are not. But if you mean to ask me if I'm willing to consider a view that is contrary to what has been taught by the scriptures and the prophets...then no, I'm not. That's not to say the response might not be interesting. But if your objective is to convince me then you will not...and if your objective is to convince others then I'll probably be there standing in your way. It's kind of what I do.

Don't get me wrong. You seem to be missing the fact that I do not disagree with everything you say. But when you conclude that something plainly taught is mistaken then we will be at odds.

On what?

That man is an agent unto himself?

Why, yes it is.

A few questions then -

1. What is the difference between being an agent unto one's self or an agent of G-d?

2. Was Jesus an agent unto himself or an agent of the Father?

3. Is man acting in the priesthood an agent unto themself or an agent of G-d?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

A few questions then -

1. What is the difference between being an agent unto one's self or an agent of G-d?

2. Was Jesus an agent unto himself or an agent of the Father?

3. Is man acting in the priesthood an agent unto themself or an agent of G-d?

 

The Traveler

The implication of a man being an agent of God is that the man can speak for God and God will be accountable. That, of course, is the case at times, when the man speaks by the Spirit of God. But it isn't relevant to being an agent unto oneself.

Why would you presume that being an agent of God is mutually exclusive to being an agent unto oneself?

As to specifically then, 1. The obvious. An agent of oneself represents oneself. An agent of God represents God. All people are the first. Some people are the latter as well. 2. Both. 3. Potentially both. Always the first. The latter if the proper conditions are met.

Edited April 4, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

On 4/4/2016 at 0:34 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

The implication of a man being an agent of God is that the man can speak for God and God will be accountable. That, of course, is the case at times, when the man speaks by the Spirit of God. But it isn't relevant to being an agent unto oneself.

Why would you presume that being an agent of God is mutually exclusive to being an agent unto oneself?

As to specifically then, 1. The obvious. An agent of oneself represents oneself. An agent of God represents God. All people are the first. Some people are the latter as well. 2. Both. 3. Potentially both. Always the first. The latter if the proper conditions are met.

 

Searching scripture it is my impression that agency is not just about choice but a kind of choice – specifically a choice between two things that are in opposition to each other.  But the agency given to man from G-d goes more specific in indicating the singular choice between the anointed Messiah, Jesus Christ and his opposition – Satan.  As I understand the doctrine of all things in opposition, the opposition spoken of as associated with G-d given agency is inevitably connected to the opposition that Satan has to the mission and purpose of the Messiah Jesus Christ.  It is called a choice between light and darkness, eternal life and eternal death or freedom and bondage.

 

Again as I understand scripture this particular choice was made in the pre-existence and is not a choice made between mortality birth and death.  This life is not a choice between a Kingdom of G-d and the perdition or outer darkness of Satan.  There is one possible exception spoken of as the sons and daughters of perdition.  But who has such a choice in this life?  In general this is not a choice given to man in mortality.  But the agency of man is carefully protected by the Father and in this life (second estate) G-d protects man from making the ultimate choice between Christ and Satan unless the individual making the choice does so in the full light of truth.  And I would submit that the impact of such a choice of any individual to make such a choice between their mortal birth and death – would be known in the pre-existence and well planned for to insure their agency was not violated.

 

We have discussed that many come to this mortal experience without any ability to make any responsible decision concerning anything.  This is call reaching accountability.  My point here being that it is not necessary in this life to make a decision about anything – the argument being that any decision deemed to be important, there is at least one (perhaps many) exceptions to the contrary.  Again the point is not that this life is not important – just that any choice that is made in the blindness of mortality can be forgiven - for any and all that desire to be forgiven and allowed a “do over”.  Also that it does not matter how bad or many bad choices are made in mortality – there is forgiveness and a place in whatever kingdom of G-d one desires to live eternally according to the covenants that specifically suit them.

 

The final point – that I admit is speculation on my part is that long before we were born we knew and planned our life here to specifically obtain the Kingdom of G-d that best suits us. That our agency or choice here in mortality (between birth and death) is not a choice to follow Satan and that; with the rare exception, are already made – fallen man cannot choose outer darkness and eternal death (physical and spiritual).   We come to this life as an agent of G-d and are so; 100% dependent on his intervention  and blessing  on our behalf - that as recorded in scripture we cannot even take a breath without G-d sustaining us to do so by his power (not ours).   If there is any scripture or statement from priesthood sources that states specifically otherwise I have missed it and would like to be corrected.  I am not sure that we disagree as much that I have failed to communicate my beliefs.

 

 

The Traveler

Edited April 7, 2016 by Traveler