Evangelical with a question

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Sorry I keep double posting.  It leaves the reply in my reply box and I don't know if it posted or not.

Can anyone help me understand this?

 

I recommend being patient, wait ~2 minutes to see if it actually posted rather than spamming it.

The double-post is a known glitch from our latest software update.  The IT people are working on it.

[Tobeloved]

13 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

@Tobeloved

Let's break this down into pieces:

First, a person, even Christ, must be baptized.  Why?  In Christ's words: "To fulfill all righteousness".  This is a commandment of God,

Are we clear on this part, before we advance further?

 

John the Baptist baptizing Jesus was part of the prophecy of the coming Messiah in the OT.

 

 

[Jane_Doe]

20 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

 

John the Baptist baptizing Jesus was part of the prophecy of the coming Messiah in the OT.

 

 

Agreed that John was prophecied in the OT.

Now, are we clear on this: a person, even Christ, must be baptized.  Why?  In Christ's words: "To fulfill all righteousness".  This is a commandment of God.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

42 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

John did have permission to baptize Jesus, but how is that authority?

I view "permission" and "authority" as very nearly synonymous.  When Mormons say that "priesthood" is the "authority to act in God's name", really all we mean is that it's "permission to act in God's name." 

Do you think there's a meaningful distinction between the two?  If so, could you flesh that out a bit?

[Connie]

“The New Testament clearly teaches the need for divine authority. Jesus ordained the Twelve Apostles (John 15:16), gave them the keys of the kingdom of God (Matthew 16:18-19; 18:18), and empowered his servants to perform miracles and take the gospel to all nation (Matthew 10:1, 5-8; 28:19-20). Later, after the Lord’s death, the apostles commissioned others to serve in the ministry (Acts 6:1-6; 13:1-3; 14:23; 1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6; Titus 1:5) and to ensure that the saving ordinances or sacraments were performed only by those properly ordained (Acts 19:1-6, 13-16). This authority was a power that no one could assume, take upon himself, or purchase; it came only through the laying on of hands by those holding proper authority (Acts 8:18-20; Hebrews 5:4).” –Robert Millet (from Getting at the Truth, chapter 8, question 4)

[Just_A_Guy]

47 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Sorry I keep double posting.  It leaves the reply in my reply box and I don't know if it posted or not.

Can anyone help me understand this?

 

No worries.  Like Jane said, it's a forum glitch.  Estradling and I have both been trying to weed out some of the duplicates in this thread.

[Tobeloved]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Whether John had pre-existing authority, or whether his commission to baptize Jesus derived merely from Jesus' request that he perform the rite, I think we can agree that John had the authority.  Caiaphas, Annas, and Pontius Pilate did not; and had any of them presumed to start baptizing people I think God would have had a real problem with that.

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I just want to clarify.

John the Baptist baptized for repentance.

Only after Jesus death were people baptized by the Apostles in Jesus Christ.

These are two different things.

[Tobeloved]

3 hours ago, zil said:

"I have need to be baptized of thee" (John said - implying he needed this baptism of the Holy Ghost and with fire).  "Suffer it to be so..." Christ said - nothing about granting authorization, "suffer it" - let it so be, allow this.

Are you sure Jesus baptized John, because I don't remember this happening.  John foretold what would happen in the future, which is baptism of the Holy Ghost. 

Edited April 22, 2016 by Tobeloved

[Tobeloved]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

@Tobeloved

Let's break this down into pieces:

First, a person, even Christ, must be baptized.  Why?  In Christ's words: "To fulfill all righteousness".  This is a commandment of God,

Are we clear on this part, before we advance further?

No thank you Jane.  I am enjoying conversing with everyone,so I would prefer to do it this way.

[Just_A_Guy]

33 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I just want to clarify.

John the Baptist baptized for repentance.

Only after Jesus death were people baptized by the Apostles in Jesus Christ.

These are two different things.

I appreciate the clarification; but as Mormons we aren't used to making that kind of distinction so it's kind of hard for us to wrap our heads around.  For us, baptism is baptism; and John's ministry clearly contemplated the Christ.

[Tobeloved]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I appreciate the clarification; but as Mormons we aren't used to making that kind of distinction so it's kind of hard for us to wrap our heads around.  For us, baptism is baptism; and John's ministry clearly contemplated the Christ.

Ok.  They are two different things, but it's good that I know how the Mormon church views it.  That's what I am here for.

[zil]

20 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Ok.  They are two different things, but it's good that I know how the Mormon church views it.  That's what I am here for.

This might speed up the answer of what Mormons believe about baptism: Bible Dictionary entry for Baptism.  It includes links to scriptures used as sources for various beliefs.  FWIW.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Tobeloved said:

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I just want to clarify.

John the Baptist baptized for repentance.

Only after Jesus death were people baptized by the Apostles in Jesus Christ.

These are two different things.

I disagree: they are the SAME thing.  We are baptized unto repentance in the name of Jesus Christ.  ALL sins, OT & NT are covered under Jesus Christ.  ALL disciples of Christ/Jehovah/God must be baptized.  

Edited April 22, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Tobeloved said:

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I just want to clarify.

John the Baptist baptized for repentance.

Only after Jesus death were people baptized by the Apostles in Jesus Christ.

These are two different things.

I disagree: they are the SAME thing.  We are baptized unto repentance in the name of Jesus Christ.  ALL sins, OT & NT are covered under Jesus Christ.  ALL disciples of Christ must be baptized.  

[theSQUIDSTER]

3 hours ago, Tobeloved said:

I believe that Jesus said that all believers are part of the priesthood of Christ.  Do you have the verses that would show that a priesthood is an office in the NT church?

.. See next post .. 

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by theSQUIDSTER

[theSQUIDSTER]

3 hours ago, Tobeloved said:

I believe that Jesus said that all believers are part of the priesthood of Christ.  Do you have the verses that would show that a priesthood is an office in the NT church?

The verse you are talking about is this one:

 But ye are a ^achosen generation, a ^broyal ^cpriesthood, an ^dholy ^enation, a ^fpeculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of ^gdarknessinto his marvellous ^hlight:

(1 Peter 2:9)

The teaching of a "universal priesthood" became popular during the Protestant reformation, most particularly through the writings of Martin Luther.  More about that here ---> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_priesthood  

It could be referred to as THE central tenet of Protestantism .. though not all who considered themselves Protestant Christians agree on this... One very interesting exception was Roger Williams who came to this conclusion about priesthood authority:  

"There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking."^[19]

^{More on Roger Williams here --- >>}  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by theSQUIDSTER
More things to add..

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Tobeloved said:

I disagree.   Jesus is not a tool used by the church.  Jesus is the one throwing the rope.  I think we already have the rope and Jesus

You disagreed, and then reiterated my point.  That was exactly what I said.  Did you misread my post?

Will you at least answer the questions?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Tobeloved said:

I did specifically ask about the or a church being mandatory.  So I'm not sure this answers what I had asked.  I'll cut and paste below:

So then the question, "why the church"?    If it is about Jesus atoning for all sin.   

Your question was specifically framed in the narrow box of: [ Church is required = No dependence on Christ].  What my questions were designed to show you was that just because we say the church is necessary does NOT in any way diminish our dependence on Christ.

If you first try answering my questions, I believe you'll begin to see that.  Please, try answering them.  I hope that through answering them, you'll see the answer to your questions.  If not, I'll try to explain how those answers also answer your questions.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Guest

[Tobeloved]

1 hour ago, theSQUIDSTER said:

The verse you are talking about is this one:

 But ye are a ^achosen generation, a ^broyal ^cpriesthood, an ^dholy ^enation, a ^fpeculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of ^gdarknessinto his marvellous ^hlight:

(1 Peter 2:9)

 

Yup.  That verse. 

[Tobeloved]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Your question was specifically framed in the narrow box of: [ Church is required = No dependence on Christ].  What my questions were designed to show you was that just because we say the church is necessary does NOT in any way diminish our dependence on Christ.

If you first try answering my questions, I believe you'll begin to see that.  Please, try answering them.  I hope that through answering them, you'll see the answer to your questions.  If not, I'll try to explain how those answers also answer your questions.

 

[LeSellers]

6 hours ago, Tobeloved said:

So I am not contesting baptism.

It was not our (or at least not my) point that you disputed baptism. The question I should have asked earlier is "What is baptism for?"

Most Evangelicals, indeed, most Protestants, see baptism as nothing more than an outward sign of the already complete conversion of a new Christian. But it is nothing more than that.

I can find no scriptural support for this view. So, before we can begin to answer your central question (i.e., why do we need a church?), we need to understand why Christ ordained Apostles, and Seventies, and Evangelists, etc. Because He was emphatic in Matthew 16, the He would build His church.

Not trying especially to be a nuisance, if Christ established a Church, it just seems arrogant to imagine we don't need it. He doesn't do things that are superfluous.

Lehi

[Guest]

@Tobeloved

I think this is a perfect time to go over the ancient interpretation of the Parable of the Good Samaritan (for those who haven't heard of it).  You're familiar with the text in the Bible.  Superimpose it on the following narrative:

Each of us travels along the road of life from birth (Jerusalem) to death (Jericho is near the Dead Sea).  In life we fall victim to sin and transgression which leaves us spiritually dead.  The Law of Moses (Levite) is there, but cannot save us.  Likewise the prophets (priest) cannot save us either.  But Jesus Christ (the Good Samaritan) came unto us and provided spiritual healing (binding up our wounds) pouring in the blood (wine) of His Atonement and the Holy Ghost (oil).

Then Christ lifts us up and carries us to the Church (the inn) and tells those present to take care of us and continue the process (which He pays for).

So, why the Church?  Why the Inn?  Why an Atonement?  Why anything?  Why not, as the Jews believe, just ask us to live right and do better, and no atonement is needed.

Instead, we believe that there are certain mechanisms that Jesus uses to do His work -- which is saving all of us.  If we don't accept the tools He uses, we're refusing to accept Him.  You know about the old joke "God will save me" -- I sent you a boat, I sent you a helicopter, and you refused all my help.  What more do you want?

Edited April 22, 2016 by Guest

[LeSellers]

7 hours ago, Tobeloved said:

Where I have issue, is when there is a step between the person and Jesus Christ that must be of a church.  It is that step that I do not believe in.

I have heard this hundreds of times. No one who espouses this theory has ever come up with a scriptural basis for it.

The Bible, again and again, points to the Church as the "tool" Christ uses to bring His people to Him, and to administer the ordinances of salvation.

Is baptism salvific?

Lehi

Edited April 22, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

Dup

Lehi

Edited April 22, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

Trip

Lehi

Edited April 22, 2016 by LeSellers