Idol Worship: Jewish and Christian Belief System

[Aish HaTorah]

Yesterday I was pondering the idea of idolatry and how it relates to both traditional Jewish and Christian belief systems.  My rabbi often shares a pseudo-historical example of idolatry to illustrate a point:

"Abraham's father, Terach, was an idol maker.  One night, just before retiring to bed, Terach left his young son in charge of the idol shop.  When Terach returned the following morning, he saw that all the statues had been scattered all over the work tables and the floor.  They were broken and irreparable.  Naturally, he was outraged at Abraham.  'What happened here?!' he screamed at his son.  Abraham shrugged his shoulders casually and then said, 'The idols had a fight.'  Terach remained furious at this unexpected turn of events.  Looking at his son, he said, 'They cannot fight.  They cannot even see or think!'  Abraham said calmly, 'Then, father, why do you worship them?'"

What do you believe with regard to idols and idol worship.  What definition would you give to this practice?  Do you believe, as we do, that even displaying the image of G-d to be idolatry?  What about the cross?

Do you think idolatry is limited to the active worship of material idols, or can the definition be expanded and made more broad?  This could include habits or other traditional practices.

I look forward to your ideas.  Shalom!

Edited April 21, 2016 by Aish HaTorah

[tesuji]

We don't believe in worshiping idols of any kind, which is prohibited by the Ten Commandments.

We don't have statues like the Catholics. (I'm not sure if this is idol worshiping, actually. Ask a Catholic.)

We don't use the symbol of the cross. (Not really idol worshiping for Protestants, anyway, I think) This is more of a tradition I think. Mormons will tell you we want to focus on Christ's life, his teachings, and his resurrection. Not on the instrument of his death. I don't personally as a Mormon have problem, theoretically, with using the cross as a symbol that I'm a Christian, but I think most Mormons will disagree with me. There's probably a statement by a Mormon prophet or two that I haven't read and so I might be out of line.

A modern prophet gave a famous sermon, where he taught that statues are NOT the only form of idol worship. We can worship wealth and other worldly things too, more than God.

The False Gods We Worship - Ensign Magazine, June 1976 
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/the-false-gods-we-worship?lang=eng
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
By President Spencer W. Kimball 

Edited April 21, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

As a Mormon who tends to lean left, and is therefore a maverick these days, I have always enjoyed the following pro-peace quote from President Kimball, from that article I just gave.

Quote

We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching:

“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44–45.)

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by tesuji

[LeSellers]

Too many worship at the altar of the NFL.

Lehi

[tesuji]

Aish, at the risk of monopolizing this thread, I will also say that I love those extra-Biblical stories about Abraham and others. We Mormons stick to the scriptures and don't know these stories.

Where do you find these? In your Midrash, maybe? How about other places.

[Aish HaTorah]

12 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Too many worship at the altar of the NFL.

Lehi

Not I.  MLB, on the other hand...

[CV75]

30 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

What do you believe with regard to idols and idol worship.  What definition would you give to this practice?  Do you believe, as we do, that even displaying the image of G-d to be idolatry?  What about the cross?

Do you think idolatry is limited to the active worship of material idols, or can the definition be expanded and made more broad?  This could include habits or other traditional practices.

I look forward to your ideas.  Shalom!

I think a good question to ask oneself periodically is, “how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?” from Mosiah Chapter 5. I take idolatry to be any practice, thought, desire, etc. that makes us a stranger to God (for it is us, and not the object, that makes us idolaters).

I think this is why it often compared to adultery: “how knoweth a man the [wife] whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?”

For a more scholarly treatment: https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/enrichment-section-f-idolatry-ancient-and-modern?lang=eng

As far as artistic depictions of God, I do not take them to be idols because He is the focus of the subject matter and I know whom I serve, and seek the companionship of, and try to keep close to the thoughts and intents of my heart.

[Aish HaTorah]

19 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Aish, at the risk of monopolizing this thread, I will also say that I love those extra-Biblical stories about Abraham and others. We Mormons stick to the scriptures and don't know these stories.

Where do you find these? In your Midrash, maybe? How about other places.

In the Midrash, yes.  We primarily try to lend our focus to the Parashat ha-Shavua (weekly readings from the Torah scrolls and that of the Nevi'im and Ketuvim (the prophetical and poetical writings).  I do, however, think there is great value to be found in the Midrash, although it is exegesis.  As long as we recognize that it is Midrashim, and not Tanakh.

Sometimes we read directly from the Midrashim, and sometimes it is related to us by the rabbi or cantor.

This raises another interesting point.  Many Christians with whom I have spoken about efforts to proselytize to Jews, have erroneously believed that it is difficult because many Jews lack a working knowledge of scripture.  In my experience, it isn't that at all.  The problem is in that many of us believe that the rabbinical teachings are on par with Torah.  In some cases the clarify to a point of superseding it.

[LeSellers]

12 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

many of us believe that the rabbinical teachings are on par with Torah.  In some cases the clarify to a point of superseding it.

Or, as Jacob (from the Book of Mormon) put it, looking beyond the mark.

Lehi

[Guest]

I think the best way to explain our position is to give some examples that are somewhat common among Mormons -- since I don't feel qualified to speak for any other Christians.

In the hallway at church we may have paintings which depicts various aspects of Christ's life -- the crucifixion, the trial, the intercessory prayer, etc.  But these are specifically kept out of the Chapel which is our primary worship area specifically so we don't focus on a picture for our worship.  It is one thing to have it as a reminder of historical / religious events.  It is another to have it be the focus of our worship.

Likewise, in our Sunday School classes and such, we may have some portraits as visual aids.  But that is not a time of worship per se.  It is a time of learning and  study.

We tend not to keep crosses or crucifixes.  But we do have a common piece of jewelry -- the CTR ring.  (Choose The Right).  This is simply to remind us to Choose The Right.  It is not a focus of our worship services or our prayers.  It's just a reminder to Choose The Right.  That's all.

We have various portraits of Christ, but most of us are aware that it is just an artist's rendering so it can't accurately be termed as His real image.

In some temple visitors' centers we have a statue of Jesus in the foyer or other central location.  This is not a place of worship, but of learning. I'm sure one could make the argument that learning is part of worship.  But with regard to this commandment, we just don't equate the two.

 

[Aish HaTorah]

Our scriptures are divided somewhat differently from yours or other Christians (if I understand correctly).  We divided them into three sections:

1) Torah (The Law).  Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

2) Nevi'im (The Prophets).  Joshua, Judges, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and The Twelve: Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.

3) Ketuvim (The Writings or Poetical Writings).  Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, I Chronicles, and II Chronicles.

[Aish HaTorah]

15 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Or, as Jacob (from the Book of Mormon) put it, looking beyond the mark.

Lehi

I am not sure that I understand that. 

[Aish HaTorah]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

We tend not to keep crosses or crucifixes.  But we do have a common piece of jewelry -- the CTR ring.  (Choose The Right).  This is simply to remind us to Choose The Right.  It is not a focus of our worship services or our prayers.  It's just a reminder to Choose The Right.  That's all.

A little like our Mogen David (Shield -often called Star- of David).

[LeSellers]

21 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

many of us believe that the rabbinical teachings are on par with Torah.  In some cases the clarify to a point of superseding it.

17 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Or, as Jacob (from the Book of Mormon) put it, looking beyond the mark.

9 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

I am not sure that I understand that. 

It's a good read: Jacob's Feast of the Tabernacles (Succoth) teaching.

His point (in "they look beyond the mark") is that people want to go beyond the simple things, and seek complexity to the point that the basics get forgotten or overlooked.

Lehi

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

...many of us believe that the rabbinical teachings are on par with Torah.  In some cases the clarify to a point of superseding it.

The LDS take a similar approach to scripture. The Lord’s servants are “called by his ordination to proclaim the everlasting gospel, by the Spirit of the living God, from people to people, and from land to land, in the congregations of the wicked, in their synagogues, reasoning with and expounding all scriptures unto them. And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost. And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.” (D&C 68:1-4).

[zil]

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

A modern prophet gave a famous sermon, where he taught that statues are NOT the only form of idol worship. We can worship wealth and other worldly things too, more than God.

I think you meant for the word "not" to be in that statement (where I have inserted it).

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

Aish, at the risk of monopolizing this thread, I will also say that I love those extra-Biblical stories about Abraham and others. We Mormons stick to the scriptures and don't know these stories.

Where do you find these? In your Midrash, maybe? How about other places.

The Book of Jasher has good stories like these (involving people from the Bible, but the story is either not in the Bible, or not as detailed, or slightly different) - including a version of that Abraham story.

[Traveler]

On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 10:25 AM, Aish HaTorah said:

Yesterday I was pondering the idea of idolatry and how it relates to both traditional Jewish and Christian belief systems.  My rabbi often shares a pseudo-historical example of idolatry to illustrate a point:

"Abraham's father, Terach, was an idol maker.  One night, just before retiring to bed, Terach left his young son in charge of the idol shop.  When Terach returned the following morning, he saw that all the statues had been scattered all over the work tables and the floor.  They were broken and irreparable.  Naturally, he was outraged at Abraham.  'What happened here?!' he screamed at his son.  Abraham shrugged his shoulders casually and then said, 'The idols had a fight.'  Terach remained furious at this unexpected turn of events.  Looking at his son, he said, 'They cannot fight.  They cannot even see or think!'  Abraham said calmly, 'Then, father, why do you worship them?'"

What do you believe with regard to idols and idol worship.  What definition would you give to this practice?  Do you believe, as we do, that even displaying the image of G-d to be idolatry?  What about the cross?

Do you think idolatry is limited to the active worship of material idols, or can the definition be expanded and made more broad?  This could include habits or other traditional practices.

I look forward to your ideas.  Shalom!

 

Perhaps I can shed some light that comes to us through revelation to our modern LDS prophets.  According to revelation given to us in the Book of Abraham; we learn that following the encounter Abraham had with his father about the evil of Idols, Abraham was taken by the priests of that heathen nation that worshiped the “dumb” idols to which Abraham preached as false idols of “strange” g-ds and Abraham was to be sacrificed upon the alter of the priest of Pharaoh (along with other human sacrifices).  At the last moment the angel of G-d delivered Abraham and destroyed the false priests engaged in idol worship.

This is one of many classic epochs of idol worship clashing with the worship of the True and Living G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Some of the other epochs are documented in scripture as the major epoch of Noah, Moses and the deliverance of Israel from Babylon.  Some of the common elements are that the covenant of G-d were in bondage of heathen nations that worshiped false and “dumb” G-d.  That G-d sends a deliverer that “redeems” them that they may worship, by covenant the True and Living G-d.

There is a premise (not exactly accurate) that G-d can be worship in a heathen nation of dumb idols in the privacy of one’s home or in their hearts.  Moses is a type and shadow of the evolution of true worship as he stood before Pharaoh (Exodus 5) and commands Pharaoh to let the house of Israel go from Egypt to worship G-d through celebration of feasts and sacrifices.  It is necessary that the people leave Egypt and gather among themselves to do this.  This is according to the worship of G-d and contrary to the worship of dump idols.  This can only be done, as demonstrated in the epoch of Moses, through a deliverer sent by G-d (Moses) and the redemption (payment of ransom) by G-d that the people can be redeemed and allowed to worship G-d.

Skipping over some parts that are most important but I leave out to get us to worshiping G-d and not dumb idols.  Moses is commanded first to construct and tabernacle and then many generations later – a temple in order to separate the worship through covenant from the indulgence (payment) worship of dumb idols.  We learn that this payment to false G-ds is given a name in revelation given to LDS – this name is “Priest Craft” which is a false worship given to all as a “tax” that reside in heathen nations.  There are other examples in the ancient literary works of tax going to dumb g-ds of which Baal is of some prominence in Jewish and Christian scripture.   

 

The Traveler

 

[Aish HaTorah]

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

There is a premise (not exactly accurate) that G-d can be worship in a heathen nation of dumb idols in the privacy of one’s home or in their hearts.  Moses is a type and shadow of the evolution of true worship as he stood before Pharaoh (Exodus 5) and commands Pharaoh to let the house of Israel go from Egypt to worship G-d through celebration of feasts and sacrifices.  It is necessary that the people leave Egypt and gather among themselves to do this.  This is according to the worship of G-d and contrary to the worship of dump idols.  This can only be done, as demonstrated in the epoch of Moses, through a deliverer sent by G-d (Moses) and the redemption (payment of ransom) by G-d that the people can be redeemed and allowed to worship G-d.

Thank you, first, for all your comments.  For the most part, I agree with you completely.  The part that I have selected from your comments is also something with which I agree.  There are, of course, some notable exceptions.  Daniel, for example.  As well as his friends Hanania, Mishael and Azaria (Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego).  Hadassah (Esther), also, was not exactly forthcoming with her faith at first, as told in the Megillah.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Aish HaTorah

[Traveler]

21 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Thank you, first, for all your comments.  For the most part, I agree with you completely.  The part that I have selected from your comments is also something with which I agree.  There are, of course, some notable exceptions.  Daniel, for example.  As well as his friends Hanania, Mishael and Azaria (Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego).  Hadassah (Esther), also, was not exactly forthcoming with her faith at first, as told in the Megillah.

 

We may agree even more than you think.  Terms like whole, holy complete and perfect can all be associated with the worship of G-d.  A worship that evolves with what the ancients referred to as the "way" or "path" that is not a static but a dynamic worship.  According to LDS teachings, temples are necessary to complete or make holy the worship of G-d.  That we are all in essence following a way or path that is completed or made perfect in the eternal kingdom (temple) or holy place of G-d.  Thus true worship is in the evolution of our discipline in following the path; regardless where on that path we currently are - the destination being inseparable from the way.  Of if you will - the means justifies the end.

 

The Traveler

[unixknight]

On 4/21/2016 at 0:31 PM, tesuji said:

We don't have statues like the Catholics. (I'm not sure if this is idol worshiping, actually. Ask a Catholic.)

As a former Catholic, I'll take a crack at this... And if any current Catholics take issue with what I say then please, by all means set me straight.  It's been a long time for me. 

Most of the time when you see statues or images or whatever in a Catholic setting these are merely symbols and reminders, just like the artwork to be found on any LDS Chapel's walls. 

Then there's items like crucifixes or Miraculous Medals worn on a chain, as well as rosaries.  These items are typically blessed by a priest, which makes them extra sacred and holy.  To be honest, I'm not sure what that's supposed to do but one could certainly argue that's a form of idolatry, in a way.  I wouldn't call it that, though, since the items themselves receive no worship.

Then there's the Eucharist, which is the unleavened bread that is transformed into the Body of Christ during the Mass.  This is the analog to Sacrament in LDS service.  Once this transformation has taken place, the Eucharist is to be treated exactly as though it were literally Christ's body.  People are expected to genuflect (kneel down on one knee and perform the Sign of the Cross) when walking past it in the church.  The idea is that one isn't worshipping the item itself, but rather the Savior whom it represents.  Idolatry?  Perhaps it is in practice, arguably, but that's definitely not the intent.

 

[tesuji]

48 minutes ago, unixknight said:

As a former Catholic, I'll take a crack at this... And if any current Catholics take issue with what I say then please, by all means set me straight.  It's been a long time for me. 

Most of the time when you see statues or images or whatever in a Catholic setting these are merely symbols and reminders, just like the artwork to be found on any LDS Chapel's walls. 

Then there's items like crucifixes or Miraculous Medals worn on a chain, as well as rosaries.  These items are typically blessed by a priest, which makes them extra sacred and holy.  To be honest, I'm not sure what that's supposed to do but one could certainly argue that's a form of idolatry, in a way.  I wouldn't call it that, though, since the items themselves receive no worship.

Then there's the Eucharist, which is the unleavened bread that is transformed into the Body of Christ during the Mass.  This is the analog to Sacrament in LDS service.  Once this transformation has taken place, the Eucharist is to be treated exactly as though it were literally Christ's body.  People are expected to genuflect (kneel down on one knee and perform the Sign of the Cross) when walking past it in the church.  The idea is that one isn't worshipping the item itself, but rather the Savior whom it represents.  Idolatry?  Perhaps it is in practice, arguably, but that's definitely not the intent.

 

Thanks for this info.

Are you familiar with the Catholic Church in South America? I went to Paraguay on my mission, and the way people talked, they almost seemed to me to worship the Virgin Mary there. I don't know exactly what they think - so I'm asking if you know.

They have one annual festival I remember where a life-size, like-like "doll" of the Virgin Mary is paraded down the street, similar to a parade float in the US Forth of July celebration.

And don't they pray to Mary, as a communication intermediary to God?

About the Eucharist, I think you might agree with me, but we Mormons don't believe our sacrament actually turns into the body and blood of Christ. It's just a symbol. 

I don't mean any disrespect toward these beliefs. Just asking to understand.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2016 by tesuji

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, tesuji said:

Are you familiar with the Catholic Church in South America? I went to Paraguay on my mission, and they almost seemed to me to worship the Virgin Mary there. I don't know exactly what they think - so I'm asking if you know.

They have one annual festival I remember where a life-size, like-like "doll" of the Virgin Mary is paraded down the street, similar to a parade float in the US Forth of July celebration.

And don't they pray to Mary, as a communication intermediary to God?

Yeah Mary is regarded as an intercessor, and is very prominent in South American culture especially.  Often people will set up a little shrine to the Virgin Mary in their home and light candles in front of it and so on.  It does certainly look like worship, but a Catholic would say that they're asking the Virgin Mary to intercede on their behalf.  So similar to the matter of idolatry, you could make the argument, but that isn't their intent, at least on the surface.  To the extent to which individual people understand the difference, your mileage may vary.

1 minute ago, tesuji said:

About the Eucharist, I think you might agree with me, but we Mormons don't believe our sacrament actually turns into the body and blood of Christ. It's just a symbol. 

Yep, agreed.