Angels

[Steve Noel]

In another thread we began to discuss the significant difference between Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals on angels. Since this was a diversion from the topic of that thread I decided to move it here. I find this to be an interesting topic. It is not one that seems to receive much attention in our debates/discussions. That is understandable since this is not an essential belief. Here are 2 quotes that highlight the difference:

From the Zondervan Pictoral Bible Dictionary article on angels: 

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"They are not glorified human beings, but are distinct from man (1 Cor. 6:3; Heb. 1:14)" (39).

From the LDS Beliefs article on angels : 

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"Angels are not, as traditional Christians aver, special creations of God. Rather, they are human beings who minister for the Lord" (36).

This is something that really perplexed me when I read the story of Joseph Smith for the first time. He relayed that a former human being, Moroni, appeared to him as an angel. This immediately made me suspicious of Joseph Smith. For this seemed to contradict what God had already revealed about angels in the Bible. Here are some of the texts I referenced when Carborendum asked about how I view angels and how they differ from God:

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Angels are spirit beings created by God (Ps. 148:2-5; Col. 1:16). The word angel in both Greek and Hebrew means "messenger." Heb. 1:14 says that angels are "ministering spirits" that are "sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation." Though they do not have a physical body, in Scripture they often appear in bodily form (e.g. Jos. 5:13-15). Angels do not marry or die (Luke 20:34-35). Angels are distinct from man (1 Cor. 6:3)...  The most substantive difference is that God is the Creator and angels are creatures (created beings) of God. Rev. 5:11-14 tells of a scene in heaven where "every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them" are worshiping the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son are not included in "every created thing." So there is the Creator - creature distinction. The implication is that God is uncreated, but angels are part of the creation of God. God is omniscient, angels are not. God is omnipotent, angels are not. God is omnipresent, angels are not. God is eternal (meaning had no beginning and will have no end), angels are not. Angels and humans worship God, but angels are not to be worshiped by humans (Rev. 22:8-9).

Others have weighed in with questions/comments in the previous thread. I will try to interact with them as I get the time.
 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by Steve Noel

[LeSellers]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I'm noticing some interesting difference in translations here.  The KJV renders it:

1 Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?  How much  more things that pertain to this life?

Heb 1:14   14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

That might be something I look into more when I have the time...

All the Greek versions I have have Hebrews 1:13~14 the same: Heb 1:13  πρὸς τίνα δὲ τῶν ἀγγέλων εἴρηκέ ποτε· κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου; 14  οὐχὶ πάντες εἰσὶ λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα εἰς διακονίαν ἀποστελλόμενα διὰ τοὺς μέλλοντας κληρονομεῖν σωτηρίαν;

The bolded words ( λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα) mean, literally "serving spirits". They cannot mean "glorified human beings". λειτουργικὰ means relating to the performance of service, employed in ministering. πνεύματα is a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting a) a life giving spirit b) a human soul that has left the body c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ

Note that this is written by a scholar, not a prophet, so we can reject c and c2 as simple bias, with no basis in scripture other than the preconceptions of people who've already decided what the word means. We can do this because there is nothing in biblical scripture that allows these connotations.

The only one that applies here, anyway, is a), so even if we're wrong, it doesn't matter in this instance.  The phrase cannot mean "glorified human beings".

The Greek is consistent in 1 Cor 6:3, as well. But no matter how I parse it, no matter how liberal I am with the possibilities, there is simply nothing in the verse, nor the surrounding passage that permits saying that angels are not human, or, as Joseph enlightened us, that all angels pertaining to this earth are going to be, or were at some time, born here.

Neither of these passages applies to the issue at hand.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

8 hours ago, Steve Noel said:

"They are not glorified human beings, but are distinct from man (1 Cor. 6:3; Heb. 1:14)"

1 Cor 6:3  "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

Heb 1:13  "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14  Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

I''m just not seeing how you can reach the conclusion that "[angels] are not glorified human beings". Neither passage speaks about the topic at all.

On the other hand, one passage that antimormons use trying to prove that we Saints are in error is Jesus' saying in Matthew 22:30  "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." They then tell us outright that men will be resurrected as angels. I know "they" are not you, and that you are not making this argument. I raise it to show that we Saints are not the only ones who see angels and men as being of the same race.

Lehi

 

[Steve Noel]

4 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

 

All the Greek versions I have have Hebrews 1:13~14 the same: Heb 1:13  πρὸς τίνα δὲ τῶν ἀγγέλων εἴρηκέ ποτε· κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου; 14  οὐχὶ πάντες εἰσὶ λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα εἰς διακονίαν ἀποστελλόμενα διὰ τοὺς μέλλοντας κληρονομεῖν σωτηρίαν;

The bolded words ( λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα) mean, literally "serving spirits". They cannot mean "glorified human beings". λειτουργικὰ means relating to the performance of service, employed in ministering. πνεύματα is a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting a) a life giving spirit b) a human soul that has left the body c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ

Note that this is written by a scholar, not a prophet, so we can reject c and c2 as simple bias, with no basis in scripture other than the preconceptions of people who've already decided what the word means. We can do this because there is nothing in biblical scripture that allows these connotations.

The only one that applies here, anyway, is a), so even if we're wrong, it doesn't matter in this instance.  The phrase cannot mean "glorified human beings".

The Greek is consistent in 1 Cor 6:3, as well. But no matter how I parse it, no matter how liberal I am with the possibilities, there is simply nothing in the verse, nor the surrounding passage that permits saying that angels are not human, or, as Joseph enlightened us, that all angels pertaining to this earth are going to be, or were at some time, born here.

Neither of these passages applies to the issue at hand.

Lehi

I think the argument being made from these texts is more simple than this. In 1 Cor. 6:3 Paul says that "we" (Paul and the Christians in Corinth) will judge angels. Thus he distinguishes between angels and believers. Two distinct groups: angels and believers. The same thing applies in Heb 1:13-14. The angels serve those who will inherit salvation (Christians). Two distinct groups: angels and believers.

[Steve Noel]

9 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

On the other hand, one passage that antimormons use trying to prove that we Saints are in error is Jesus' saying in Matthew 22:30  "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." They then tell us outright that men will be resurrected as angels. I know "they" are not you, and that you are not making this argument. I raise it to show that we Saints are not the only ones who see angels and men as being of the same race.

I am not sure what you mean when you write, "They then tell us outright that men will be resurrected as angels." Could you clarify what you mean by "as" here? Are you saying that they claim resurrected people will be angels, or, that resurrected people will be like angels in certain ways?

[LeSellers]

One other verse that some people use to show that men and angels are not of the same race is Psalms 8:4  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.  (Also Heb 2:6~7.)

The word "angels" is not the usual Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ mal'âk, meaning messenger. Here, the translators changed the entire meaning of the Hebrew to protect their erroneous concept of God. The word here is אֱלֹהִים 'ĕlôhı̂ym, i.e., gods. So we should read "… For thou hast made him a little lower than the gods [or God, if one insists on the standard translation]."

Lehi

 

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Steve Noel said:

I think the argument being made from these texts is more simple than this. In 1 Cor. 6:3 Paul says that "we" (Paul and the Christians in Corinth) will judge angels. Thus he distinguishes between angels and believers. Two distinct groups: angels and believers. The same thing applies in Heb 1:13-14. The angels serve those who will inherit salvation (Christians). Two distinct groups: angels and believers.

That is certainly one way to view it. It is hardly a convincing argument though, or reason to be perplexed about the views of Mormons.

[LeSellers]

1 minute ago, Steve Noel said:

I am not sure what you mean when you write, "They then tell us outright that men will be resurrected as angels." Could you clarify what you mean by "as" here? Are you saying that they claim resurrected people will be angels, or, that resurrected people will be like angels in certain ways?

Sure. I'm not reticent about what we believe: They will be resurrected to be angels.

Angels are men who do not live on the earth when they are sent as messengers from God to men. There is nothing in the Bible that clearly says anything else, and people who believe that angels are not of the family of Adam must read into the book things that are not there to justify their preconceptions.

Lehi

[Steve Noel]

4 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Sure. I'm not reticent about what we believe: They will be resurrected to be angels.

Angels are men who do not live on the earth when they are sent as messengers from God to men. There is nothing in the Bible that clearly says anything else, and people who believe that angels are not of the family of Adam must read into the book things that are not there to justify their preconceptions.

Lehi

Okay, I think we are getting mixed up here. If I understood your original post on this you were referencing what "antimormons" say, not what Latter-day Saints say, correct?

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Steve Noel said:

I think the argument being made from these texts is more simple than this. In 1 Cor. 6:3 Paul says that "we" (Paul and the Christians in Corinth) will judge angels. Thus he distinguishes between angels and believers. Two distinct groups: angels and believers. The same thing applies in Heb 1:13-14. The angels serve those who will inherit salvation (Christians). Two distinct groups: angels and believers.

However one reads it, it does not say what the Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary article on angels claims (and bases its arguments on). But, if the believers will judge angels, then angels are lesser than the believers (which is odd).

Lehi

Edited April 26, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

1 minute ago, Steve Noel said:

Okay, I think we are getting mixed up here. If I understood your original post on this you were referencing what "antimormons" say, not what Latter-day Saints say, correct?

Sorry, I didn't follow the conceptual thread.

Yes, "they" in this case are the antimormons.

Lehi

[Vort]

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Angels are spirit beings created by God (Ps. 148:2-5; Col. 1:16).

Just like we are.

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The word angel in both Greek and Hebrew means "messenger."

Just like we are supposed to be.

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Heb. 1:14 says that angels are "ministering spirits" that are "sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation."

Just like we are charged to do.

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Though they do not have a physical body, in Scripture they often appear in bodily form (e.g. Jos. 5:13-15).

From where do you derive the doctrine that angels lack a physical body? Do you infer that, because they are spirits, they must not have bodies? This is not a well-considered point. We have spirits, but also bodies. So does God; even you believe that.

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Angels do not marry or die (Luke 20:34-35).

True enough. Marriage is to be performed in mortality, and post-mortal or resurrected beings do not die, unless you mean the second death.

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Angels are distinct from man (1 Cor. 6:3)...

As far as I can tell, this verse does not substantiate your point in any way.

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The most substantive difference is that God is the Creator and angels are creatures (created beings) of God.

How do you think this differs from the LDS understanding?

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Rev. 5:11-14 tells of a scene in heaven where "every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them" are worshiping the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son are not included in "every created thing." So there is the Creator - creature distinction.

I understand that this is a huge point for many Christians. I think it's utterly irrelevant, but whatever.

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The implication is that God is uncreated, but angels are part of the creation of God. God is omniscient, angels are not. God is omnipotent, angels are not. God is omnipresent, angels are not. God is eternal (meaning had no beginning and will have no end), angels are not.

No, that is not the implication at all. Rather, it is your inference. Huge difference.

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Angels and humans worship God, but angels are not to be worshiped by humans (Rev. 22:8-9).

Were you under the impression that Latter-day Saints worship angels?

[Steve Noel]

6 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Sorry, I didn't follow the conceptual thread.

Yes, "they" in this case are the antimormons.

Lehi

No problem. So can you clarify what you are saying that "antimormons" are claiming here? I have never heard critics of Mormonism say that resurrected people are angels. Is that what you are saying that they claim?

[Steve Noel]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

Just like we are.

Just like we are supposed to be.

Just like we are charged to do.

From where do you derive the doctrine that angels lack a physical body? Do you infer that, because they are spirits, they must not have bodies? This is not a well-considered point. We have spirits, but also bodies. So does God; even you believe that.

True enough. Marriage is to be performed in mortality, and post-mortal or resurrected beings do not die, unless you mean the second death.

As far as I can tell, this verse does not substantiate your point in any way.

How do you think this differs from the LDS understanding?

I understand that this is a huge point for many Christians. I think it's utterly irrelevant, but whatever.

No, that is not the implication at all. Rather, it is your inference. Huge difference.

Were you under the impression that Latter-day Saints worship angels?

Keep the context in mind. I was asked to describe my concept of angels and how angels differ from God. This was not a comparison of Evangelical and LDS viewpoints.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Steve Noel said:

Keep the context in mind. I was asked to describe my concept of angels and how angels differ from God. This was not a comparison of Evangelical and LDS viewpoints.

Thanks. My bad.

[Steve Noel]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

No, that is not the implication at all. Rather, it is your inference. Huge difference.

If you read Revelation 5 you see that "every created thing" is worshiping the One who sits on the throne and the Lamb. If the Father and the Son are "created things," then they would be included in the phrase "every created thing." It is all-inclusive. Please explain why you do not think that this implies that the Father and Son are not created?

[LeSellers]

3 minutes ago, Steve Noel said:

If you read Revelation 5 you see that "every created thing" is worshiping the One who sits on the throne and the Lamb. If the Father and the Son are "created things," then they would be included in the phrase "every created thing." It is all-inclusive. Please explain why you do not think that this implies that the Father and Son are not created?

Every created thing, including both angels and men, is a single class. This passage does not divide us into to groups, but combines us into one. Using it to show we are differenct from angels is illogical.

Lehi

 

[Steve Noel]

12 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Every created thing, including both angels and men, is a single class. This passage does not divide us into to groups, but combines us into one. Using it to show we are differenct from angels is illogical.

Lehi

 

Okay, Lehi. You need to get some sleep . This post was not about the difference between angels and humans, but the created (everything) and the uncreated (God). I made the statement that the text implies that God is uncreated. Vort said that was my inference, but that it was not implied in the text. By the way, you made my point accidentally . The crated are in a "single class" here. That class is all-inclusive ("every"). So God is not in the created class. The Father and the Son are uncreated.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Steve Noel

[LeSellers]

50 minutes ago, Steve Noel said:

Okay, Lehi. You need to get some sleep . This post was not about the difference between angels and humans, but the created (everything) and the uncreated (God). I made the statement that the text implies that God is uncreated. Vort said that was my inference, but that it was not implied in the text. By the way, you made my point accidentally . The crated are in a "single class" here. That class is all-inclusive ("every"). So God is not in the created class. The Father and the Son are uncreated.

This implies that we worship creatures. We do not.

We do not worship angels.

We do not worship Moroni, Mormon, or any other ancient prophet.

We do not worship Joseph Smith (as some have alleged repeatedly).

And, to make the point yet again, this does not establish any distinction between man and angels. Nothing in the Bible does.

Lehi

Edited April 26, 2016 by LeSellers

[bytebear]

The problem I have with the notion that Angels are not "human beings" glorified or not, is that it contradicts Revelation 22

 

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8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

 

Clearly, the angel was not worthy of worship, and he stops John from worshiping him.  But he also says he is a fellowservant, and of the brotheren of the prophets.  I see no other interpretation than this angel was once a prophet, and therefore a human being.

 

In fact, this encounter is very similar to the encounters Joseph Smith had with angels, who also were former prophets.

Edited April 26, 2016 by bytebear

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Steve Noel said:

I think the argument being made from these texts is more simple than this. In 1 Cor. 6:3 Paul says that "we" (Paul and the Christians in Corinth) will judge angels. Thus he distinguishes between angels and believers. Two distinct groups: angels and believers. The same thing applies in Heb 1:13-14. The angels serve those who will inherit salvation (Christians). Two distinct groups: angels and believers.

I would agree that he is putting them into two groups. Where I'm loosing you is how you get to the bolded part (bolding mine) and how this relates to different substances and whatnot.

[Steve Noel]

1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

This implies that we worship creatures. We do not.

We do not worship angels.

We do not worship Moroni, Mormon, or any other ancient prophet.

We do not worship Joseph Smith (as some have alleged repeatedly).

And, to make the point yet again, this does not establish any distinction between man and angels. Nothing in the Bible does.

Lehi

Lehi,

You will have to go back and read the discussion here. You are completely misunderstanding what I am saying. I explained this in my last post to you. Please review the comments.

[LeSellers]

9 hours ago, Steve Noel said:

You will have to go back and read the discussion here. You are completely misunderstanding what I am saying. I explained this in my last post to you. Please review the comments.

And you have missed my point entirely.

Your original clam was that man and angel were of different types, and ne'er the twain shall meet. Your source, Zondervain, used 1 Cor 6:3 and Heb 1:14 as the basis for this. My point is that neither of these scriptures has anything to do with a supposed difference between the "species".

I confess to going further afield than you did because I have heard this all before, and refuted it. We all have history (some more than others, since there has been more time for some than for others — I know I'm among the eldest here, having seen more than six decades of this, starting when I was in my early teens). These arguments have not changed my vision of angels. That's partly because of the hours of study behind my statements, and partly because I have seen the same arguments dressed up in different costumes, each new advocate assuming that his version will be persuasive. It ain't never worked.

My tack this time was to short circuit the expected thrust of argument, that is, to rebut what is surely to come before it casts a shadow on the discussion.

Lehi

Edited April 26, 2016 by LeSellers

[Steve Noel]

49 minutes ago, bytebear said:

The problem I have with the notion that Angels are not "human beings" glorified or not, is that it contradicts Revelation 22

 

 

Clearly, the angel was not worthy of worship, and he stops John from worshiping him.  But he also says he is a fellowservant, and of the brotheren of the prophets.  I see no other interpretation than this angel was once a prophet, and therefore a human being.

 

In fact, this encounter is very similar to the encounters Joseph Smith had with angels, who also were former prophets.

I think that the KJV may be causing confusion here. The angel does not say here that he is the brother of the prophets. He says that he is a fellow servant with John and John's brothers, the prophets. Notice the language in the KJV. It is "thy" brethren, meaning John's brethren. That is what it says in Greek. The angel is declaring that he is a fellow servant with John and John's brothers, the prophets.  Angels are servants of God, just like humans. That does not make them exalted humans. 
 

[LeSellers]

4 minutes ago, Steve Noel said:

Angels are servants of God, just like humans. That does not make them exalted humans.

Doesn't stop their being glorified humans, either. Nor unressurected spirits of just men. Nor any other kind of human being.

It's interesting that the word "angel" in the Bible is the translation of both Hebrew and Greek words meaning 'messenger", and has no specific connotation of spirit or any other form.

All supposition as to the "structure" of angels based solely on the Bible is nothing more than human conjecture.

Lehi