Deciding to Tithe, Converts & Others

[dahlia]

My RS lesson is about tithing. The person I mentioned in a previous thread is still sending me 'helpful hints' for the lesson. : (  This suggestion was to use personal experiences. OK. I have my own tithing 'moment' to use. 

Tiithing can be a hard decision for converts if it's not in your previous religious belief system. When I first learned of it, it smacked of TV evangelists begging for my money with which to buy their mansions. No. Not gonna happen. I have also heard a few testimonies in church from born Mormons who let their tithing lapse and had to re-convince themselves to get back into it.

So, the question for this week is, what made you decide to tithe, especially if you were a convert. Please don't tell me that you came to a realization that the money was God's first or that everything comes from HF. OK. To me, that's the easy, unexamined answer. I want to know what changed in your thinking to make tithing a continuous choice for you. Also, if you had family members were interested in converting, but couldn't get past the tithing thing, how were you able to convince them to tithe or how did they convince themselves? 

I put this here because I think it is a Church topic, but feel free to move if it's in the wrong place.

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, dahlia said:

Please don't tell me that you came to a realization that the money was God's first or that everything comes from HF. OK. To me, that's the easy, unexamined answer.

I can't comply.

It is God's first.

It is not an easy, unexamined answer.

Yes, it is the "primary answer", one a child might give. That doesn't make it easy or unexamined. Primary answers are, to appeal to the definition of "primary", fundamental, foundational.

Quote

Primary

1. first or highest in rank or importance; chief; principal: his primary goals in life.

2. first in order in any series, sequence, etc.

3. first in time; earliest; primitive.

4. of, relating to, or characteristic of primary school: the primary grades.

5. constituting or belonging to the first stage in any process.

6. of the nature of the ultimate or simpler constituents of which something complex is made up: Animals have a few primary instincts.

7. original; not derived or subordinate; fundamental; basic. (In scholarly studies) pertaining to or being a firsthand account, original data, etc., or based on direct knowledge, as in primary source; primary research.

In effect, there is no other answer.

We can look to Mary Fielding Smith and her insistence on paying tithing because she knew that if she did, she could require the Lord to fulfill his obligation to bless her. That's good, and I can't fault her for her faith and her integrity. But the only true reason for paying tithing is to be obedient, humble, to be a redeemed son/daughter of God.

Lehi

Edited April 30, 2016 by LeSellers

[zil]

I can't give you the answers you request, but I'll give you an answer in case it turns out to be of use.  My brothers and I (to varying degrees) remember that when we were little (very little), mom and dad would give us a dime or a nickel on Fast Sunday, which we would put in tithing envelopes and give to the bishop.  I always thought of this as tithing (even though I remember it happening on Fast Sunday).  My parents do not remember doing this.  Tithing has never been a struggle for me.  I assume that's because of what my parents taught me.

[Guest]

My conversion to tithing came when I realized that I have a strong testimony of the gospel and that I really, really want to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Paying a full and honest tithe is mandatory for having a temple recommend.  Therefore, I think that tithing is of at least considerable importance for achieving my eternal goals. In saying this, I am by no means judging anyone who, for whatever reason, does not pay a full tithe.  Only God can judge!

Because I have a strong testimony of the gospel, I will gladly make the sacrifice and pay my tithes.  My testimony of tithing is entirely related to how I feel about the gospel as a whole, with the knowledge that paying tithing is part of living the gospel.

Now paying fast offerings - that is something I need to work on... 

[Guest MormonGator]

2 hours ago, dahlia said:

So, the question for this week is, what made you decide to tithe, especially if you were a convert. Please don't tell me that you came to a realization that the money was God's first or that everything comes from HF. OK. To me, that's the easy, unexamined answer. I want to know what changed in your thinking to make tithing a continuous choice for you. Also, if you had family members were interested in converting, but couldn't get past the tithing thing, how were you able to convince them to tithe or how did they convince themselves? 

 

Dahlia, you make some great points-as you always do. It's not easy for converts to understand tithing, and the worst thing for lifelong members to do is downplay their concerns or worse, "Well you just have to do it."

Tithing is generally a good thing because the money you donate-a lot of it-goes to help the truly needy. I try to tithe because it makes me feel better about myself. That's my personal view. 

Do I have a testimony about it? No. In fact, I think it's much too strict a law. Some people are on incredibly fixed incomes already and simply can't afford the extra ten percent. Do I wish the church had others rules about it? You bet I do. I think demanding it for temple attendance is also troublesome. Do I think it will change? Not in my lifetime. 

[bytebear]

By the way, I am just a lowly computer geek, and my house is bigger, and more expensive than Pres. Monson's (not by much, and it's pretty modest, actually).  But the point is, our leaders aren't living lavish lifestyles on church funds. And since our church leaders also pay tithing, they put a lot more in than they ever get out.  So, I think you can put away the idea of televagelist type wealth.  Nope, our leaders are under the same law of tithing as everyone else.

Edited April 30, 2016 by bytebear

[An Investigator]

I've struggled with this tbh.. For a few reasons

1 I'm a part member household so a temple recommend isnt really a top priority.

 

2, before I was baptised I thought OK 10pc I can do that but then you write the cheque and realise how much that actually is.

 

3, I don't have enough testimony to think I'm actually going to be blessed so at the minute I'm trying to look at it like an obedience thing like not drinking tea but being able to drink coke.

 

No answers as I'm obviously struggling but thought I would chip in x

[LeSellers]

Just for the record. When I wrote my book (no longer in print), The Earth is the Lord's and the Fullness Thereof,* one chapter dealt with budgeting. I researched  more than a dozen authors and financial gurus, from Suze Orman and Robert Kiyosaki to Mark Victor Hansen and Robert G. Allen, to Michael Masterson. (Please note that none of these authors is LDS.) Each one counseled people, if they want to accumulate wealth, to give at least 10% to charity. Orman put it something like this: If your hands are so tightly closed, grasping the wealth you have, they are not open to receive the wealth that is raining down all around you.
* Subtitled A Financial Workbook for Latter-day Saints.

But then, Malachi said it first, and best.

Lehi

Edited April 30, 2016 by LeSellers

[zil]

6 hours ago, An Investigator said:

I've struggled with this tbh.. For a few reasons

1 I'm a part member household so a temple recommend isnt really a top priority.

2, before I was baptised I thought OK 10pc I can do that but then you write the cheque and realise how much that actually is.

3, I don't have enough testimony to think I'm actually going to be blessed so at the minute I'm trying to look at it like an obedience thing like not drinking tea but being able to drink coke.

No answers as I'm obviously struggling but thought I would chip in x

1. IMO, a temple recommend isn't the reason to pay tithing, it's just one of the blessings thereof.  (I was a part-member household - after receiving my endowments, but still - for a time, until my husband joined the church. Part-member isn't a reason not to enjoy all the temple and church blessings you can, IMO.)

IMO, God is trying to teach us generosity.  He Himself is generous in the extreme (as much as he can be).  His desire is for us to become like Him.  Part of that is learning generosity (with our time, talents, and resources like money).  Given that our benefit is His work and glory (thus indicating that He gives us 100% of what He has), 10% isn't so much after all.

2. This is the challenge - for many - and the Lord challenges us.  Hugh Nibley said something that I think applies (bold is mine, italics are his):

Quote

Aristotle pointed out long ago that a shortage of knowledge is an intolerable state, and so the mind will do anything to escape it; in particular, it will invent knowledge if it has to. Experimenters have found that lack of information quickly breeds insecurity in a situation where any information is regarded as better than none. In that atmosphere, false information flourishes; and subjects in tests are "eager to listen to and believe any sort of preposterous nonsense." Why so? We repeat, because the very nature of man requires him to use his mind to capacity: "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses," says Joseph Smith, "is co-equal with God himself." What greater crime than the minimizing of such capacity? The Prophet continues, "All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. . . . God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge." Expansion is the theme, and we cannot expand the boundaries unless we first reach those boundaries, which means exerting ourselves to the absolute limit.

That's kinda scary and would make all but the bravest uncomfortable, but it makes perfect sense.

3. This is part of the journey - gaining a testimony of each principle, learning to be obedient, and then becoming converted in regard to that principle.  Three quotes (intended to help you decide the rate at which you are able to expand ):

Quote

Mosiah 4:27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.

 

Quote

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

The fastest way to learn if something is right is to do it (sincerely).

Quote

Oh, if I could teach you this one principle: a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!

Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man is,” as the scripture says, indeed “the candle of the Lord” (Proverbs 20:27).

Boyd K. Packer, “The Quest for Spiritual Knowledge,” New Era, Jan. 2007, 6

I have a testimony of what Elder Packer is teaching, and that we are blessed for obedience, even when we're not sure of the principle itself.  I have experiences which tell me the Lord has his own ways of doing math and of manipulating (the use of) time and resources.  I also know that the Lord helps us learn and obey at our own rate, and that it's not the same for all of us - He will help you find yours.

Edit: OK Lehi's post requires me to add a fourth.  How often does the Lord challenge us to prove Him (emphasis mine):

Quote

Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by zil

[An Investigator]

Hi Zil! 

I totally agree with you theoretically but as I said I think tithing Is something that requires testimony and that starts with faith that you should obay God but your not quite sure why, IMO.

As for the temple as I've said on here I have no desire to go.. Might change, might not.. I'm in no rush as I can't be sealed to my beautiful kids.  

[Guest]

I don't really have what I'd consider a "spiritual" testimony.  Mine is based on honor.  Beyond the fact that everything is the Lord's to begin with, we need to understand what tithing is.

It is NOT a welfare program.  It is NOT to help the poor.  That is what other funds such as fast offering are for.

Tithing is the Lord's law of finance.  What that means is that churches, temples, activities, pews, equipment, books and manuals, church media, etc. all cost money.  Someone  has to pay for it.  Tithing is the method that the Lord has outlined.  It is also the method that we agree to when we sign on.  That's simply the way it works.

Now for the monetary testimony...

I have been a starving college student.  I've been homeless.  At the time I always paid my tithing even if that only meant $5 per month.  I also tried to pay fast offering even when that was 20 cents per month.  I had faith at the time that things would work out.

After many years of being blessed with a career with a high income, I was subject to long-term unemployment.  I did not take that well.  I found a job after I had emptied all my savings, retirement accounts, and children's college funds.  I had to start all over again.  Prior to that job's first paycheck, I didn't have enough in my checking account to cover the latest monthly credit card bill.

But after a few years, the Lord has let me know that although it may seem like I'll be set for bankruptcy, He will sustain me and bless me because of how faithfully I paid my tithing when I had almost nothing.

Today, I am fairly certain that I pay a larger tithing check or fast offering check than most or all of the people on this board.  That is not to brag about my faithfulness or income.  It is to testify that the Lord has blessed me because of tithing.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Guest

[tesuji]

Tithing proves to myself that I have faith and that I put God before money. For this reason it gives me joy to pay it. Plus I love that I'm helping to support Gods kingdom.

[zil]

10 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

As for the temple as I've said on here I have no desire to go.. Might change, might not.. I'm in no rush as I can't be sealed to my beautiful kids.

I write this only to give you things to think about (at your own pace), and out of love (a desire for you to enjoy all the blessings you can); you need to work out your own progress with the Lord (He knows what you should do far better than I, or even you).

1) Doing baptisms for the dead is fun and a service to those beyond - part of that same generosity I was talking about before.

2) If you never go to the temple, you will never be sealed to your kids (since sealing happens in the temple).  On the other hand, if you do everything you can, with faith that the Lord will do the rest, the Lord will indeed do the rest (whatever that may be).  It is my experience that there is immense power in taking the first step, or speaking the first word.  I believe receiving your own endowments (eventually, when you're ready) will bring power and blessings into your life, and get you closer to being sealed to your family.  From my experience, when we do all we can first, the Lord does the rest.  This is just something to ponder and pray about - trust the Lord's answer, whatever it may be, and you can't go wrong.

[An Investigator]

Thanks Zil I'm going to write that advice in my diary to ponder x

[Jane_Doe]

I'm not a convert, but I did go through a period of inactivity and soul-searching, during I married my Evangelical husband.  He is VERY anti-tithing to any church, including his own (says "it's my money").  As I've become more involved in church again, and further strengthened my testimony, tithing has been a thing of much prayer search for me.  I am now comfortable with the idea because:

1)  It really isn't my money.  Saying that it's "my money" is like my 2 year old saying that they are "her fries and I can't have any"-- in reality I'm the one who bought the fries, gave them to her, and I could literally drown her in fries if I wanted to.  Her giving me one of "her" fries is about her showing thankfulness and a lack of pride.  It's the same as tithing.

2) If we are unwilling to depart with are money for Heavenly Father... which are we really having being our god?  

3)  My family of 3 lives well below poverty rates.  But... we're ok.  Honestly, I feel that we have plenty and more than we need.  Us Americans are spoiled rotten: we don't really need fancy cars, fancy TV's, and all the junk we have.  I look at other places, the way people live in 3rd world countries... and I am spoiled rotten.  I have been given so much, and I too should give.

[dahlia]

On 4/30/2016 at 10:19 PM, DoctorLemon said:

My conversion to tithing came when I realized that I have a strong testimony of the gospel and that I really, really want to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Paying a full and honest tithe is mandatory for having a temple recommend.  Therefore, I think that tithing is of at least considerable importance for achieving my eternal goals. . 

My feelings are very close to yours in as far as tithing is necessary for a temple recommend. I get so much from the temple, I never want to be in a position where I can't go, there for I pay my tithing. Maybe not the best reason (I have others), but one that is primary in my thoughts. 

Gosh, I must have missed that it was optional to pay fast offerings. I always pay, but it is very little because it's just me and I eat veg, rice & beans. So, I feel guilty that I don't pay more.

[dahlia]

14 hours ago, zil said:

The fastest way to learn if something is right is to do it (sincerely).

 

I believe this to be true. I struggled with tithing before baptism, but no longer do so. I have come to believe that it is right, and as someone said, it's what we agreed to when we signed on (personally, I'm OK with that as the only reason one tithes).  We had someone give a fast testimony and admit to some bad times right now. In an effort to solve some problems, the person stopped tithing. I surprised myself when I realized that my first thought was 'bad idea.'  I would never have thought that as an investigator. And as I suspected, many things went south for this person once they stopped tithing. The rational side of me says 'stuff happens whether or not one tithes.' The LDS side of me says maybe some of the bad choices would not have cascaded if the first choice had been to pay tithing. 

[dahlia]

14 hours ago, LeSellers said:

 I researched  more than a dozen authors and financial gurus, from Suze Orman and Robert Kiyosaki to Mark Victor Hansen and Robert G. Allen, to Michael Masterson. (Please note that none of these authors is LDS.) Each one counseled people, if they want to accumulate wealth, to give at least 10% to charity. Orman put it something like this: If your hands are so tightly closed, grasping the wealth you have, they are not open to receive the wealth that is raining down all around you.

i started reading Dave Ramsay many years ago. I probably should have paid more attention, then, but OK... I was surprised that he advocated tithing / charitable giving in the midst of debtt reduction. Over the years, I have come to understand his thinking, but it was very difficult when I first read it.  

[dahlia]

Thanks everyone for such thoughtful answers. So, here is my story -

The missionaries had talked about tithing and we had discussed it in Gospel Principles. At the time, I was a new professor, straight out of grad school, no real income for years (bills paid, but nothing extra), big loan payments, a car payment (never had a car before) and the university required that you put in a lot of money into the retirement plan and a host of other mandatory 'benefits' so that I was paying a ton of money each month on items that were not optional, other than the car payment, I guess. My son lost his job in Seattle and came out to live with me. It took months for him to find work, so I was supporting the two of us. I felt like I was making good money, but seeing very little of it. How the heck was I going to pay tithing?

Then, the student loan payment options changed and I had hundreds of dollars 'extra' each month. The university changed its insurance premiums and I no longer had to pay almost $400 for a single person. It changed some other benefits so now I actually get money back for participating (still haven't figured out how that works). 

So, one day the missionaries are in my home talking about tithing, again, and I realized all these adjustments to my income had occurred. I not only could I pay tithing, but I could do so and still have more money than I had before. Things had been a bit of a financial struggle up to that point, and now they weren't. It was like being hit in the face. I was so emotional, I had to get up and leave the room. I burst into tears. The poor elders were asking if I was ok? I knew I had no more excuses for not paying tithing. How could I not pay it, for surely none of these changes had been by my hand, but by the Lord's.  It was a powerful moment for me - and a scary one for the elders. : )

And yes, even Dahlia gets taken by the Spirit every now and then, though it kinda freaks her out.

[zil]

8 hours ago, dahlia said:

How could I not pay it, for surely none of these changes had been by my hand, but by the Lord's.

This is the Lord's way of doing math.  His way of doing it is different for each of us, but it's never the same way men do math.

Thank you for sharing this story.

[LeSellers]

9 hours ago, dahlia said:

i started reading Dave Ramsay many years ago. I probably should have paid more attention, then, but OK... I was surprised that he advocated tithing / charitable giving in the midst of debtt reduction. Over the years, I have come to understand his thinking, but it was very difficult when I first read it.  

I like his advice on tithing/charity. His plan for debt elimination works, but it is neither as effective nor as efficient as others.

However, as I said, his is in line with all the other counselors I have read. The only way to accumulate wealth is to give it back.

Lehi

[dahlia]

On 4/30/2016 at 0:12 AM, bytebear said:

 So, I think you can put away the idea of televagelist type wealth.  Nope, our leaders are under the same law of tithing as everyone else.

Of course, now that I know more about how the Church runs, I see this, but you have to remember that outside of Utah and Idaho, many people in this country know very little about Mormons. People don't know that Church leaders, at the local or national levels, aren't paid. They don't know where the money goes, they just see a Church asking for money.

[Jane_Doe]

25 minutes ago, dahlia said:

Of course, now that I know more about how the Church runs, I see this, but you have to remember that outside of Utah and Idaho, many people in this country know very little about Mormons. People don't know that Church leaders, at the local or national levels, aren't paid. They don't know where the money goes, they just see a Church asking for money.

Which why we do our best to tell people!

[dahlia]

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, dahlia said:

Every time I see this meme I like it more and more!