How Was Christ Perfect In Spirit?

[lewisqic]

So i have a question that i've been chewing on the past few days concerning Christ and his perfection. Now, i know and understand his perfection while here in the flesh, for Christ was literally begotten by an immortal, perfected being, our Father in Heaven. That is not where my question lies, for it easy clear to see how he was able to be perfect while here in the flesh.

My question is this, How was it that Christ remained perfect while in the pre-mortal spirit world?

Consider these few other questions before you answer the one above...

Was sin possible for us as spirit children of our Heavenly Father in pre-mortal times? It would seem to me that the answer would be yes, for we had our agency and therefore the ability to choose. Did not the adversary and a third part of heaven choose to not follow Christ? Did they not commit sin in this action? I will give some support to this idea...

Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. -D&C 93: 38

The above scripture indicates a couple of things:

1st, that every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning. In other words, each and every person, when first begotten in the spirit, was innocent before God.

2nd, It says that man became AGAIN, in their infant state(infant in mortality) innocent before God.

3rd, In order for someone to be innocent in the beginning, and then to become innocent AGAIN, it would imply that they would have to have lost their perfect innocence between these two births.

This leaves me to reason that yes, there was indeed the possibility of sin or choosing contrary to the Lord's will in pre-mortal times.

Now we know that Christ never has sinned, ever, not here in mortality, not in pre-mortal life. If he had sinned, the plan of salvation would have been frustrated and he would not have been able to perform the atonement. The follow excerpt from JOD illustrates Christ's perfection before this life.

...His father might have reasoned with him in words something like these:-If you, a pure sinless being, my only begotten Son, are willing to go and take upon you the same kind of body that the fallen sons of men have taken upon themselves-a fallen body of flesh and bones, subject to pain, disease, sickness, temptation, and finally death, and offer yourself as a sacrifice... - Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 7:, p.256 - 257

So, with that in mind, this leaves me to wonder... If Christ was born in the spirit of the Same father that you and i were born of, why was it that he was able to remain perfect and without blemish in pre-mortal times when others, Christ's literal brothers and sisters, were prone to sin and error?

Think about this, and feedback is always appreciated.

[Maureen]

So, with that in mind, this leaves me to wonder... If Christ was born in the spirit of the Same father that you and i were born of, why was it that he was able to remain perfect and without blemish in pre-mortal times when others, Christ's literal brothers and sisters, were prone to sin and error?

Think about this, and feedback is always appreciated.

My answer is probably going to be too short.

It is because he was God, and God has always been perfect.

M.

[hocobo23]

So i have a question that i've been chewing on the past few days concerning Christ and his perfection. Now, i know and understand his perfection while here in the flesh, for Christ was literally begotten by an immortal, perfected being, our Father in Heaven. That is not where my question lies, for it easy clear to see how he was able to be perfect while here in the flesh.

My question is this, How was it that Christ remained perfect while in the pre-mortal spirit world?

Consider these few other questions before you answer the one above...

Was sin possible for us as spirit children of our Heavenly Father in pre-mortal times? It would seem to me that the answer would be yes, for we had our agency and therefore the ability to choose. Did not the adversary and a third part of heaven choose to not follow Christ? Did they not commit sin in this action? I will give some support to this idea...

Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. -D&C 93: 38

The above scripture indicates a couple of things:

1st, that every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning. In other words, each and every person, when first begotten in the spirit, was innocent before God.

2nd, It says that man became AGAIN, in their infant state(infant in mortality) innocent before God.

3rd, In order for someone to be innocent in the beginning, and then to become innocent AGAIN, it would imply that they would have to have lost their perfect innocence between these two births.

This leaves me to reason that yes, there was indeed the possibility of sin or choosing contrary to the Lord's will in pre-mortal times.

Now we know that Christ never has sinned, ever, not here in mortality, not in pre-mortal life. If he had sinned, the plan of salvation would have been frustrated and he would not have been able to perform the atonement. The follow excerpt from JOD illustrates Christ's perfection before this life.

...His father might have reasoned with him in words something like these:-If you, a pure sinless being, my only begotten Son, are willing to go and take upon you the same kind of body that the fallen sons of men have taken upon themselves-a fallen body of flesh and bones, subject to pain, disease, sickness, temptation, and finally death, and offer yourself as a sacrifice... - Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 7:, p.256 - 257

So, with that in mind, this leaves me to wonder... If Christ was born in the spirit of the Same father that you and i were born of, why was it that he was able to remain perfect and without blemish in pre-mortal times when others, Christ's literal brothers and sisters, were prone to sin and error?

Think about this, and feedback is always appreciated.

Although we were all perfect from "the begining" we know that we had a space of time to make choices and decisions in the pre earth life. Although we could not sin, we could use our agency to choose how to act and what to say, etc. Christ used his agency to PERFECTLY magnafy the will of the father and choose PERFECTLY how to use his agency. How did he do it? I dont know. But we all have the same ability we can choose to PERFECTLY follow christ, its laid out for us, we just usually dont! My humble opinion of course!

[Adomini22]

As long as there is choice, there is the possibility to choose wrongly. Did Lucifer sin in the preexistence? well, yeah, he did. So free agency still allows the possiblity of sinning...

I asked my mission president this question years ago, how was Christ perfect when we were not. He said that maybe it was because Jesus was the only one sinless in that state, hence his perfection before the plan went underway....

[Dr T]

I'm with M on that.

[CrimsonKairos]

While Maureen and Dr. T's position is neat and simple, LDS doctrine complicates things somewhat.

We believe we were all spiritually begotten by God our Father. Jesus was the Firstborn spirit offspring of God. We believe that we all entered our spiritual existence in the same state of progression or glory. Even Jesus.

However, we believe that Jesus always did everything our Father asked us to do, from "day one." Since his obedience was so complete and his submission so sweeping, Jesus attained godhood before any of our mortal births. We didn't because we didn't obey perfectly and hence could not progress to the point of perfection and righteousness.

The question is what was it about Jesus that allowed him to obey from "day one." Why is it that he was able to obey perfectly and attain godhood while we could not? It is a uniquely LDS mystery.

[Dr T]

Thanks CK. You know my position. There is no "obtaining" of deity in my opinion. It is his because it is his essence.

[CrimsonKairos]

Hence my pointing out that LDS doctrine makes it a uniquely LDS question. B)

[Dr T]

Yes sir. :)

[Traveler]

I will give my opinion - please understand this is my opinion. All the spirit children of the Father that kept their first estate obtained the title of "perfect in the spirit". In fact it is my opinion and understand that, we, as spirit children of the Father had perfected such a state of spiritual perfection that there was nothing left for us to do, or prove as spirits. I believe we all are the g-ds of heaven spoken of in Genesis.

I believe that having a physical mortal experience was necessary and the very core of G-d's brilliant plan of happiness and salvation. We knew that without a physical mortal experience we would become "damned" souls - stopped short of the Glory of G-d the Father.

I would also point out that "perfect" in the ancient understand of the prophets that penned the scriptures meant to be complete. I have stated this before that I believe we stumble over worthiness much to often in thinking of perfection. It is not about the past it is about the now. Being perfect has to do with the forward thinking of being prepared and not the backward looking in thinking worthiness.

I have no problem with those that refuse to prepare to be a G-d, like G-d and living as a G-d with G-d. We all have our agency. We are all in the process of preparing for our next life - I challenge all to prepare in the "way" or "manner" of G-d. Think about it: Step 1. Have divine faith in Christ. 2. Repent (which is a change of heart and mind - or the heart and mind of G-d). 3. Baptism by someone standing in and taking the proxy place of G-d as though they were G-d. 4. Receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost - which is the same as saying - receive the gift of G-dlyness or in other words G-dhood.

The Traveler

[a-train]

Here is the prideful answer: Well, somebody had to get to sin so that the whole project could go forth, so we all volunteered. We had too. It had to be done. There has to be a devil. There had to be a fall. Perhaps we could have been as perfect as the Saviour, but if He is the Chosen One, we all have to fall.

-a-train

[Gillebre]

my theory that I'm now pondering over is this.

Well, I kinda agree with Traveler.

One question I have is this: If Christ was fully divine in the "pre-existence", having been boring of Heavenly Parents, wouldn't we all be "divine" in the "pre-existence"?

Christ is our Elder Brother, yes, but His parents, spiritually, are the same as our own. Wouldn't it stand to reason that we became "perfected" spiritually, with all the same as Jehovah, but He was chosen to carry out the work as Savior. I say that not to demean His glory or His sacrifice, but to state that we are both of the same Spiritual Lineage, it would stand that we had the same abilities, perfected spiritually, before we came to Earth (having come here because we could progress no farther, there).

Am I making sense?

[lewisqic]

my theory that I'm now pondering over is this.

Well, I kinda agree with Traveler.

One question I have is this: If Christ was fully divine in the "pre-existence", having been boring of Heavenly Parents, wouldn't we all be "divine" in the "pre-existence"?

Christ is our Elder Brother, yes, but His parents, spiritually, are the same as our own. Wouldn't it stand to reason that we became "perfected" spiritually, with all the same as Jehovah, but He was chosen to carry out the work as Savior. I say that not to demean His glory or His sacrifice, but to state that we are both of the same Spiritual Lineage, it would stand that we had the same abilities, perfected spiritually, before we came to Earth (having come here because we could progress no farther, there).

Am I making sense?

Yes, i understand what you are saying, but there is a slight problem in that reasoning.

See, if you were to say that Christ was the same as us and we the same as him in the pre-existance, then that would be to say that he committed sin but then overcame and eventually became perfected.

If this were so, he could not have qualified to be our Savior. My opinion at least.

The fact remains that both us and the Savior were born of the same spiritual parents, yet why was it that he was able to remain sinless and perfect while others were prone to sin and error?

Now just to throw out some ideas that i've had... we know that the Savior was the firstborn child in the spirit world, so perhaps that had something to do with it.

Or maybe he received a special blessing or ordination to that position that enabled him to remain pure.

[CrimsonKairos]

One question I have is this: If Christ was fully divine in the "pre-existence", having been boring of Heavenly Parents, wouldn't we all be "divine" in the "pre-existence"?

We would not all be perfectly obedient just because we shared the same Parents.

Remember that Nephi and Laman/Lemuel had the same parents.

Now if God had created "us" at the moment of our spiritual birth, then yeah it would stand to reason that we'd all be the same.

But the little "I Am" inside each of us, the consciousness within our spirit and physical bodies that animates them both...that part of us, the "intelligence" as the D&C and Abraham says, was not created or made.

So in essence, Heavenly Father got what He got when he clothed our intelligences in spirit bodies. He didn't make us one way or the other. We are who we are, and who we are is imperfect except for Christ.

That doesn't explain how he's the only perfect one, but we must understand that he is the only perfect one. Alma 13 discusses these principles well.

[Adomini22]

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One question I have is this: If Christ was fully divine in the "pre-existence", having been boring of Heavenly Parents, wouldn't we all be "divine" in the "pre-existence"?

We would not all be perfectly obedient just because we shared the same Parents.

Remember that Nephi and Laman/Lemuel had the same parents.

Now if God had created "us" at the moment of our spiritual birth, then yeah it would stand to reason that we'd all be the same.

But the little "I Am" inside each of us, the consciousness within our spirit and physical bodies that animates them both...that part of us, the "intelligence" as the D&C and Abraham says, was not created or made.

So in essence, Heavenly Father got what He got when he clothed our intelligences in spirit bodies. He didn't make us one way or the other. We are who we are, and who we are is imperfect except for Christ.

That doesn't explain how he's the only perfect one, but we must understand that he is the only perfect one. Alma 13 discusses these principles well.

CK, its been awhile since we have agreed. its nice to go back to the way things were..... I agree.

[CrimsonKairos]

Yeah, it is nice not to be on opposite sides of the issue. B)

[livy111us]

BEFORE Christs resurrection He said "Be ye therefore perfect even as your father which is in heaven is perfect" (Mat 5:48)

AFTER His resurrection He said "Be perfect even as I, or your father in heaven is perfect" (3 Nephi 12:48)

He did not claim perfection until after His resurrection.

[CrimsonKairos]

Depends on what you define "perfect" to mean.

If it simply refers to "wholeness" or "completeness" then yes, before his resurrection Jesus did not possess an exalted body of flesh and bone like the Father's.

In terms of character and attributes, though, Christ was perfect as the Father even before passing through the Arimathaean's tomb.