High Teacher Salaries in Dallas

[Guest]

STARTING teacher salaries are up in Dallas.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20150627-starting-teacher-pay-reaches-50000-in-many-north-texas-districts.ece

BTW, this is about what a starting engineer would make right out of school.

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Guest

[Backroads]

Not going to lie, I'd take 50,000.

I'm starting my 6th year at only 40,000. 

I see why it angers people but if that's how to attract and keep.teachers so be it. Also keep in mind engineers salaries rise steadily. Public school.teachers will generally never make more than 60,000. Private school teachers will generally never make more than 25,000. Area depending, of course.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Also keep in mind engineers salaries rise steadily. Public school.teachers will generally never make more than 60,000. Private school teachers will generally never make more than 25,000. Area depending, of course.

Move to Texas.  School teachers in Texas make a lot more and the cost of living is comparable.  You'll see salaries for regular teachers cap out above $70k.  Department heads, principals, and administrators can be as high as $110+.  Engineering salaries are not that much different -- unless you're in heavy industry.

Utah engineers don't make the salary that Texans do either.  I had an offer for a job west of SLC.  It was for a lead engineer with at least 10 years of experience in a fairly specialized field in heavy industry.  And they offered what they thought was an attractive salary which was in the range of what teachers make in Utah.  I stayed in Houston for a reason.

Additionally, Engineering salaries (unlike teachers' salaries) actually go up and down a lot.  When the market is high, we get paid a lot more.  When the market is down like it is now, more than half the engineering work force is out of work and the rest take a pay cut.  Many engineers today in Houston would love to have a Utah teacher's salary.  My salary has gone down almost 30% due to the drop in oil prices.  I couldn't really pay all my bills on that drop in salary.  So, I took a second job (like always).  Thankfully, I was able to make up my deficit.

Additionally, the summer commitments that teachers have are not comparable to the full-time work that engineers have during the same time period.  Teachers can take other work during that time to make up the difference.

Add into it the job security and benefits and... I don't mean to insult or anything, but I just don't buy into the "plight" of the teacher's salary.

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Guest

[Backroads]

Dude, you don't need to defend yourself to me. I don't believe in a real teacher plight. I was just under the impression you were upset over the salary raise. Buy trust me, Utah teachers start at an average of 30,000. I just don't see many engineers taking that salary.

I'm just saying 50,000 would rock. Perhaps I shall move to Texas.

[tesuji]

To me, there is no better evidence that we are living in a Telestial world than the fact that one of the most important professions (teaching) gets valued and paid the least. And Utah is one of the worst states, when it should be one of the best; that doesn't compute for me.

[Jayhawk2421]

Being that teachers are unionized and require a college degree, $50k is not a great starting salary.  I am currently struggling to hire pipefitters with no experience and only a high school diploma for $80k to start in Denver.  This is the pay for their 1 year apprenticeship after which they can take overtime and boost their earnings to 120-150k a year. 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Backroads said:

...I'm just saying 50,000 would rock. Perhaps I shall move to Texas.

I'd really, seriously encourage it.  I want to encourage a mass move of many Utah Mormons to move to Texas.  We need a greater presence here.  The fact is that in many ways it is a great state to live in.  The only thing missing is the percentage of Mormons in the state.  

We were lower than the national average.  I don't have the latest statistics, but I believe we're at the national average now because of the oil boom.  It is amazing how many people in the two stakes I've lived in work in oil & gas.  The direct employment here is about 15% oil and gas.  But the two wards I've been in are about 95% oil & gas breadwinners.  In the two stakes, the percentages are not much lower.  And a HUGE percentage (I don't know how much) of the latest wards have been formed because of the oil & gas boom.

So, I believe that the Lord wants more saints to move here and is providing opportunities to do so (such as employment).  I know that most of the time, Mormons will do a job better than the average person.  It is proving itself true in the oil & gas engineering market.  Many of the upper levels are being filled by Mormons.  The ones that are growing quickly to become the prominent engineers and project managers in the Houston community are active saints.  I had mentioned that more than half the work force is laid off.  But most of the ward members I know are still employed.  I'd say only 5% to 10% of the wards have been affected.

I'd like to see a similar thing happen in many other professions, like education, law, medicine, etc.  We need more LDS entrepreneurs that can join organizations like Rotary and Kiwanis.  We need to influence our society more.

So, yes, if there is some flexibility in your life, please move to Texas.  I'd recommend Houston or Dallas more than Austin.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Jayhawk2421 said:

Being that teachers are unionized and require a college degree, $50k is not a great starting salary.  I am currently struggling to hire pipefitters with no experience and only a high school diploma for $80k to start in Denver.  This is the pay for their 1 year apprenticeship after which they can take overtime and boost their earnings to 120-150k a year. 

It is an interesting thing, isn't it?

Mechanics here are in great demand.  And the starting rate for a guy who has received a certification (usually one semester worth of classes) is about $36k/yr + overtime if he wants it.  And a master mechanic can make $100k+/yr.

But a recent HS grad at $80k/yr?  Most engineers don't make that salary out of school.  In fact, I'd challenge anyone who can find a starting engineer salary that high.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Guest

[LeSellers]

3 hours ago, tesuji said:

To me, there is no better evidence that we are living in a Telestial world than the fact that one of the most important professions (teaching) gets valued and paid the least. And Utah is one of the worst states, when it should be one of the best; that doesn't compute for me.

It's a matter of economics: the Law of Supply'n'Demand.

People who don't understand this tend to think that "value" is measured by the output. It's not. Value (in the economic sense) is a measure of how hard it is to get the thing or person needed. Air is free, even though absolutely necessary for life because there is an endless supply of it. Teachers are cheap because there is a very high percentage of people who could do the job. Basketball players make millions per game because there are very few people who can compete at the NBA level. Teachers also are cheap because few people value their output: they don't make very many people happy (by which I mean, they don't make people better off — in the minds of their customers). Baseball players make a lot of people much happier.

In essence, anyone can be a teacher, but those who play professional sports are few. Teachers don't make people happier and sports professionals do. Supply'n'Demand, Supply'n'Demand, Supply'n'Demand. That's all there is to it.

Lehi

Edited June 9, 2016 by LeSellers

[Backroads]

Carb, we've discussed Texas before, though never seriously. Husband is a geology major, so perhaps it may be the way to go.

[Backroads]

I'm also going to offend my profession and agree with LeSellers about the pro athletes. Teachers (and many other professions) are pretty much available for anyone willing to study the craft a bit.

 

Pro athletes have talent and dedication beyond the norm.

[tesuji]

1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

Teachers also are cheap because few people value their output: they don't make very many people happy (by which I mean, they don't make people better off — in the minds of their customers).

Why don't people value learning?

And if ball players make millions and teachers make next to nothing - that's not a signal to you that something is wrong with the system?

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

Why don't people value learning?

You seem to have missed a critical piece of the discussion: teaching (especially in a government-run, tax-funded welfare school) is so easy that there must be artificial barriers (licensure and unionization) to keep too many people from becoming teachers (which would drive the wages down even further). Because of the unions, for example, no teacher can be much more productive than were his counterparts two centuries ago. Class sizes are no bigger (and usually smaller) than they were in the XVIII, so teachers are not making more people better off.

No law can change the fact that basketball/baseball/football players are in short supply. Stadia are much larger today than in the past (especially when one considers that television is part of the stadium) so a player can make a lot of people better off at the same time.

Why people don't value learning is not the question. Everyone values "learning". It's "teaching" that has little value. We ought not conflate the two.

GRTF-Welfare schools don't make allow teachers to be as effective as they could be. So teachers' incomes don't reflect what they could earn in a real market-driven learning arena. Don't blame people for not valuing teaching: blame the government for the monopoly it forces on teachers, students, parents, and tax payers.

Lehi

Edited June 9, 2016 by LeSellers

[unixknight]

3 hours ago, tesuji said:

To me, there is no better evidence that we are living in a Telestial world than the fact that one of the most important professions (teaching) gets valued and paid the least. And Utah is one of the worst states, when it should be one of the best; that doesn't compute for me.

If people's pay were proportional to the actual community value of their product, Farmers would live in mansions and beer brewers would all be on welfare.

It's all about supply and demand, as has been said above.  Just like everything else.

[Guest Godless]

25 minutes ago, unixknight said:

If people's pay were proportional to the actual community value of their product, Farmers would live in mansions and beer brewers would all be on welfare.

It's all about supply and demand, as has been said above.  Just like everything else.

 

HEY, brewers are a very important part of our economy and our community. 

But seriously, yes, move to TX. There's a reason why people have been flocking here for years. The 2008 recession didn't hit us nearly as hard as many other parts of the country, cost of living is very reasonable, and the job market is very healthy for many professions. I'll also agree with Carb to avoid Austin. That's the one city that doesn't have much room for more transplants. 

[Backroads]

I'd take it a step further and say current private schools can't even offer teachers competitive wages. Most private schools simply don't have income to pay teachers very much. Most I know average 20,000 a year... after decades. I like my salary just fine but yeah, market-wise, teaching salary is a crapshoot

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

And if ball players make millions and teachers make next to nothing - that's not a signal to you that something is wrong with the system?

Not at all. It's a sign the system is working as well as the government will allow it to.

I've explained in other messages that teachers don't produce much that people value (and I re-iterate that it's not learning people don't value, it's teaching). The reasons for that are myriad, but it's primarily a matter of there being far more people who could be teachers under the current system (which doesn't demand much of its teachers and who actively punishes many who exceed expectations), and of there being a monopoly in this system.

Ball players are, as pointed out earlier, a limited resource. And people value very highly their contribution to their happiness.

Supply'n'Demand. If the question is economic value, the answer is Supply'n'Demand.

Lehi

Edited June 9, 2016 by LeSellers

[Backroads]

A perspective on teaching:

Most people consider me a highly intelligent person. I was the smart kid growing up. I went into teaching not because it was easy, but because it truly interested me. Trust me, no one goes into teaching because it's the easy thing to do, it's always simple interest in the field.

But teaching is mostly craft. Teachers indeed need to know their material and definitely need to be skilled at presenting it to a variety of learners. But that's really it: we are but an option and tool in the learning process. 

I take great pride in being this simple learning option/tool. I try to keep learning more information and bettering my skills so I'm good at what I am. Sure, I try to be a fountain of wisdom and information, but I'm not a magician. It's not like kids are doomed to a lack of education if I weren't there.

I enjoy teaching, but really, anyone with the personality and desire to work on the craft can do it. And I daresay this applies to most crafts and professions. 

Teaching, for me, is a lot of fun. It's fulfilling. I like being part of the educational world. I don't like people naysaying my profession, but it's not like I'm some superstar.

However, I don't like sports. I don't want to constantly train. Baseball players can have at it.

[LeSellers]

3 minutes ago, Backroads said:

anyone with the personality and desire to work on the craft  [of teaching] can do it.

And that is precisely why teaching doesn't, and cannot, pay the big bucks.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Backroads said:

A perspective on teaching:

Most people consider me a highly intelligent person. I was the smart kid growing up. I went into teaching not because it was easy, but because it truly interested me. Trust me, no one goes into teaching because it's the easy thing to do, it's always simple interest in the field.

But teaching is mostly craft. Teachers indeed need to know their material and definitely need to be skilled at presenting it to a variety of learners. But that's really it: we are but an option and tool in the learning process. 

I take great pride in being this simple learning option/tool. I try to keep learning more information and bettering my skills so I'm good at what I am. Sure, I try to be a fountain of wisdom and information, but I'm not a magician. It's not like kids are doomed to a lack of education if I weren't there.

I enjoy teaching, but really, anyone with the personality and desire to work on the craft can do it. And I daresay this applies to most crafts and professions. 

Teaching, for me, is a lot of fun. It's fulfilling. I like being part of the educational world. I don't like people naysaying my profession, but it's not like I'm some superstar.

However, I don't like sports. I don't want to constantly train. Baseball players can have at it.

Bravo Backroads. Well said. 

[NeuroTypical]

Being a homeschooling dad and reading the Little House series has ruined me on this topic.  I have only nonrelated things to say.

Little Laura Ingalls got her first job at age 13, one town over, as the school teacher.  She lived with the family who had the most kids - two little girls.  So she got to hear all the yelling and fighting the parents did, through the thin walls.  The wife yelled into the night at her husband, accusing him of being unloving, demanding to move back to the city, accusing him of moving Laura in for illicit reasons.  One night she went at him with a knife.  Breakfast the next morning was fun.  Yes, people really did have that sort of drama back in the 1800's.  

She got paid like three bucks at the end of the school year, plus meals and bed.

 

[Backroads]

18 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

And that is precisely why teaching doesn't, and cannot, pay the big bucks.

Lehi

And why pro sports players with incredible athletic prowess worthy of entertainment will. I have no problem with that.

 

Would I take millions of dollars in a raise? Heck yes I would. Who would not?

I consider one day leaving teaching. Or maybe I'll stay. Who knows? If I put myself to learning another craft that the market gives a higher financial value, I would. It might require more or less effort and devotion on my part. Who knows? 

Currently teaching doesn't pay high money. That's cool. I would love to see teaching go full private market and being able to see what I could get away with charging.

I still doubt it would ever be as much as the brain surgeon (which, who knows, after much training I could do--medicine and biology fascinate me) or the talented sports star (could never do in a million years.)

Edited June 9, 2016 by Backroads

[Backroads]

I'd like to homeschool my kids. Or give them the option. My daughter's preschool/daycare lady is probably one of the smartest ladies I've met. We actually will be leaving her so she can finis her 2nd master's degree in the fall. Anywho, she home schools two kids while the third prefers a local school.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Backroads

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Backroads said:

I'd take it a step further and say current private schools can't even offer teachers competitive wages.

Why not?

Because the state insists that private schools mimic grtf-welfare schools, that is, the schedule, the curriculum (to at least a large degree), the structure, the credentials (mostly), and a host of other characteristics. So, the state mandates the costs, and limits the use of technologies and other resources, thus disallowing any productivity increases that could lead to higher pay.

And, for the most part, the teachers are subject to the Supply'n'Demand limitations on their pay. More significantly, however, since the grtf-welfare schools cost so much, the public's "education budget" is conscripted before they get to paying for private education. Were that not the case, private school teachers would make much more because the "Demand" side would be higher. In economics, "the demand curve is the price curve": higher demand means higher pay.

You are among a very few low-level government employees who understand why they don't earn those proverbial "big bucks". I salute you!

Lehi

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by LeSellers

[tesuji]

2 hours ago, LeSellers said:

You seem to have missed a critical piece of the discussion: teaching (especially in a government-run, tax-funded welfare school) is so easy that there must be artificial barriers (licensure and unionization) to keep too many people from becoming teachers (which would drive the wages down even further). Because of the unions, for example, no teacher can be much more productive than were his counterparts two centuries ago. Class sizes are no bigger (and usually smaller) than they were in the XVIII, so teachers are not making more people better off.

No law can change the fact that basketball/baseball/football players are in short supply. Stadia are much larger today than in the past (especially when one considers that television is part of the stadium) so a player can make a lot of people better off at the same time.

Why people don't value learning is not the question. Everyone values "learning". It's "teaching" that has little value. We ought not conflate the two.

GRTF-Welfare schools don't make allow teachers to be as effective as they could be. So teachers' incomes don't reflect what they could earn in a real market-driven learning arena. Don't blame people for not valuing teaching: blame the government for the monopoly it forces on teachers, students, parents, and tax payers.

Lehi

Teaching is not easy. I don't know how you can say that if you know anything about teaching. Certainly not in Utah, with 30+ kids per classroom. It's even worse nowadays - teachers are leaving the system in droves.

The problem is that we live in a ridiculous Telestial world, that values ball playing over teaching and learning.

"That's how capitalism" works is no answer. The obvious response is that if that's how capitalism works, then capitalism is broken.

Since this is an LDS forum, we can add a gospel perspective. The scripture does not say:

Quote

The glory of God is playing ball...

And if a person gains more skill in ball-playing in this life, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by tesuji