High Teacher Salaries in Dallas

[tesuji]

2 hours ago, unixknight said:

If people's pay were proportional to the actual community value of their product, Farmers would live in mansions and beer brewers would all be on welfare.

It's all about supply and demand, as has been said above.  Just like everything else.

The difference between teachers and beer folks is that teachers are paid by the public. We have the power to improve the system, and pay teachers more, and reduce class sizes, etc.

There is a public interest in good teaching in our democratic system:

Quote

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by tesuji

[Backroads]

19 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Teaching is not easy. I don't know how you can say that if you know anything about teaching. Certainly not in Utah, with 30+ kids per classroom. It's even worse nowadays - teachers are leaving the system in droves.

The problem is that we live in a ridiculous Telestial world, that values ball playing over teaching and learning.

"That's how capitalism" works is no answer. The obvious response is that if that's how capitalism works, then capitalism is broken.

Since this is an LDS forum, we can add a gospel perspective. The scripture does not say:

 

No, teaching is not easy and yes, anyone who dares say it is hasn't done it. But nor is it terribly difficult across the board. Frankly, the varying challenges are what make it fun and interesting.

But here's the deal: what is more valuable? An educated kid or a kid who sat in the classroom of even the most skilled and knowledgeable teacher? Now, a skilled and talented teacher ought to produce an educated student and therein lies the object of the craft. But the end goal is not awesome teachers but educated students (though if any of those educated students choose to become educators, that's great.)

I'm not saying increased salary wouldn't attract great teachers, but that's just part of the system.

We want to.improve education all the way, not just reward teachers.

[LeSellers]

5 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Teaching is not easy. I don't know how you can say that if you know anything about teaching. Certainly not in Utah, with 30+ kids per classroom. It's even worse nowadays - teachers are leaving the system in droves.

I've taught in the schools. Eowyn will hasten to point out that I was "only" a substitute, but I submit that being a substitute is harder than being the regular teacher. I know this is true because I was the regular teacher for half of the year in three classes of 6^th and 7^th graders. The difference between those physics classes and the ones I taught in English or Social Studies was that in the former, it was just regular school, but in the latter, it was "trash the sub day" every day.

As a sub, I can tell you that teaching is easy: I could go from economics in high school to kindergarten on the same day, because that was what the district needed. I daresay not too many full-time teachers have that on their résumés. I couldn't teach Spanish or ASL, but I did "teach" those classes rather often, and was able to give the students some insights on language in general. I do speak French and Italian, and have a deaf daughter-in-law who uses ASL frequently. (And the regular ASL teacher wan't all that proficient anyway.)

But that's not the point. The real issue here is that almost anyone can get through the college classes required to become a credentials teacher. Economically, that's all that counts.

5 minutes ago, tesuji said:

The problem is that we live in a ridiculous Telestial world, that values ball playing over teaching and learning.

The telestial world is the only world we have to live in. So, since there is no other option, what are you going to do?

5 minutes ago, tesuji said:

"That's how capitalism" works is no answer. The obvious response is that if that's how capitalism works, then capitalism is broken.

Capitalism, even the restricted capitalism we are allowed, has produced more happiness than any other economic system. It assures that, in the aggregate, that more people are happier, that the resources available are used in the most expedient way, and that there is less waste than under any other system.

What would you replace it with? The failures of the alternatives are myriad and obvious.

9 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Since this is an LDS forum, we can add a gospel perspective. The scripture does not say:

Quote

The glory of God is playing ball...

And if a person gains more skill in ball-playing in this life, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

I'm trying to find where anyone has said anything that could make you imagine this is the desired outcome.

Economics deals with the real world of scarcity and how to best allot the resources among all those competing for them. According to the desires (which is one of the components of "demand") of the people around you, ball playing skills and talents are more highly valued than those of teachers. The problem is government, not teachers, per se. That's because government dictates what qualifies as "teaching", and its definition hurts all who are part of the system:students, taxpayers, parents, and, most pitiable, teachers.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

9 minutes ago, tesuji said:

There is a public interest in good teaching in our democratic system:

Quote

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson

This is common among those in the government education industry. It conflates "school" with "education".

The two are far from the same.

Lehi

[Backroads]

50 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

 

You are among a very few low-level government employees who understand why they don't earn those proverbial "big bucks". I salute you!

Lehi

 

This means a lot since I always thought you didn't like me.

[LeSellers]

4 minutes ago, Backroads said:

This means a lot since I always thought you didn't like me.

I love you, my sister. It's your employer I despise.

Lehi

[tesuji]

Backroads,

By the way, have you read the following book? I'm in chapter 4 so far and I really like his ideas:

Creative Schools: The Grassroots Revolution That's Transforming Education
Apr 19, 2016
by Ken Robinson
https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Schools-Grassroots-Revolution-Transforming/dp/0143108069/

Edited June 9, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

23 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I've taught in the schools. Eowyn will hasten to point out that I was "only" a substitute, but I submit that being a substitute is harder than being the regular teacher. I know this is true because I was the regular teacher for half of the year in three classes of 6^th and 7^th graders. The difference between those physics classes and the ones I taught in English or Social Studies was that in the former, it was just regular school, but in the latter, it was "trash the sub day" every day.

As a sub, I can tell you that teaching is easy: I could go from economics in high school to kindergarten on the same day, because that was what the district needed. I daresay not too many full-time teachers have that on their résumés. I couldn't teach Spanish or ASL, but I did "teach" those classes rather often, and was able to give the students some insights on language in general. I do speak French and Italian, and have a deaf daughter-in-law who uses ASL frequently. (And the regular ASL teacher wan't all that proficient anyway.)

But that's not the point. The real issue here is that almost anyone can get through the college classes required to become a credentials teacher. Economically, that's all that counts.

The telestial world is the only world we have to live in. So, since there is no other option, what are you going to do?

Capitalism, even the restricted capitalism we are allowed, has produced more happiness than any other economic system. It assures that, in the aggregate, that more people are happier, that the resources available are used in the most expedient way, and that there is less waste than under any other system.

What would you replace it with? The failures of the alternatives are myriad and obvious.

I'm trying to find where anyone has said anything that could make you imagine this is the desired outcome.

Economics deals with the real world of scarcity and how to best allot the resources among all those competing for them. According to the desires (which is one of the components of "demand") of the people around you, ball playing skills and talents are more highly valued than those of teachers. The problem is government, not teachers, per se. That's because government dictates what qualifies as "teaching", and its definition hurts all who are part of the system:students, taxpayers, parents, and, most pitiable, teachers.

Lehi

We aren't going to be on the same page. You are entitled to your opinion.

We live in a Telestial world, but we belong to a religion that believes we don't have to put up with that. 

Raw, laissez faire Capitalism is not the gospel. It can be modified or improved. I believe we have the intelligence, and the obligation as disciples of Christ, to do that, in fact. There I said it: Heresy, I know. I'll give you my bishop's number if you want to start the excommunication process...

[Guest]

Did I hear something about someone singling someone else out? No? Must have been the wind. 

[unixknight]

51 minutes ago, tesuji said:

The difference between teachers and beer folks is that teachers are paid by the public. We have the power to improve the system, and pay teachers more, and reduce class sizes, etc.

There is a public interest in good teaching in our democratic system:

You're right in principle, but in actual practice these wages are still going to be dictated by supply and demand. 

[LeSellers]

19 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Did I hear something about someone singling someone else out? No? Must have been the wind. 

Did you, or did you not, chastise me for claiming I was a teacher? Did you make a big point of it?

Lehi

[LeSellers]

33 minutes ago, tesuji said:

We live in a Telestial world, but we belong to a religion that believes we don't have to put up with that. 

We belong to a religion that teaches we are here, in a telestial world, as part of our eternal progression. We do, indeed, "have to put up with that".

Lehi

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

We have the power to improve the system, and pay teachers more, and reduce class sizes, etc.

You must first show that any of these things would be a good idea, and one that cannot be handled outside the government monopoly.

Lehi

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Did you, or did you not, chastise me for claiming I was a teacher? Did you make a big point of it?

Lehi

I don't know about chastise. I made a point and I stand by it. Even if you did the whole of a teacher's job for 6 months, that doesn't make you an expert in all things education. No one could work 6 months at any job and claim to know a lot about it. Many internships are longer. 

My point here, though, is that if you're going to do a thing, you kind of nix your right to legitimately complain about other people doing that thing. 

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Eowyn will hasten to point out that I was "only" a substitute,

You sure do like to take potshots at Eowyn and then whine about others doing it to you.  Take you own advice, your comment about Eowyn was completely unnecessary.

[LeSellers]

4 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

You sure do like to take potshots at Eowyn and then whine about others doing it to you.  Take you own advice, your comment about Eowyn was completely unnecessary.

Not quite. It's happened twice, so there is no reason to expect it would not have happened again. My "potshot" was designed to preclude yet another event like those.

Lehi

Edited June 9, 2016 by LeSellers

[mirkwood]

Your "potshot" was exactly that.  A roundabout personal attack.  It was unnecessary.  Your points could have been made without reference to Eowyn.

[Guest]

If you'll notice, I don't tend to comment on your threads/comments about education anymore. I feel like I've said what there is to say and I don't want to go around the block again. 

[Backroads]

2 hours ago, tesuji said:

Backroads,

By the way, have you read the following book? I'm in chapter 4 so far and I really like his ideas:

Creative Schools: The Grassroots Revolution That's Transforming Education
Apr 19, 2016
by Ken Robinson
https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Schools-Grassroots-Revolution-Transforming/dp/0143108069/

I have not read it yet. It's sitting in my summer reading pile, though.

[Just_A_Guy]

8 hours ago, tesuji said:

To me, there is no better evidence that we are living in a Telestial world than the fact that one of the most important professions (teaching) gets valued and paid the least. And Utah is one of the worst states, when it should be one of the best; that doesn't compute for me.

To an extent, I agree with you.  But I also have to recognize that I could fix this--at least, partly--by giving each of my kids' teachers a hundred bucks--or fifty bucks--or even just twenty bucks--right now.  But, will I?  Nope.  I've got other demands on my family budget, and as much as I would love to help--I just can't.

The state of Utah is similarly hidebound.  I believe that as a portion of total state government spending, Utah is pretty well in line with the rest of the country when it comes to education.  The problem is that Utah is one of the youngest states in the nation, so the state has a student-to-taxpayer ratio that is totally out-of-whack with most other states.  That results in a depressed funding-per-classroom rate; and in order to find the money to bring you back up to "normal" levels you have to either raise taxes (HA!) or raid the budgets for the university system, the justice/correctional system, UDOT, Medicaid, or a cat's cradle of other state agencies--every one of which would be happy to tell the public and the media just how calamitously the sky will fall if their programs don't get full funding. 

Re the difficulty of teaching:  It seems to me that LeSellers would agree that teaching--not lecturing, but teaching--is certainly hard given the constraints of the system now in place including the length of the school day, boneheaded curricula, thuggish unions, apathetic parents, and everything else.  But the need to reform the system, in my mind, doesn't seem to justify the disdain that is sometimes shown to the teachers who go into the public schools determined to do the best they can to make things better.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[zil]

21 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I have not read it yet. It's sitting in my summer reading pile, though.

I've enjoyed several of his (Ken Robinson's) YouTube videos... (FWIW)

[tesuji]

Utah's teacher problem: What can be done to keep educators in the profession?
Deseret News
June 9, 2016
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865655957/Utahs-teacher-problem-What-can-be-done-to-keep-educators-in-the-profession.html

 

[tesuji]

Why do we Mormons hate education? Our scriptures teach us that learning is one of the most important things.

Utah is dead last in spending per pupil. So more money is definitely needed. Class sizes in Utah are ridiculous. The states that spend the least per student:

1. Utah ($6,555)
2. Idaho ($6,791)
3. Arizona ($7,208)

Compare this to the states that spend the most:

1. New York ($19,818 per student)
2. Alaska ($18,175)
3. District of Columbia ($17,953)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-states-that-spend-the-most-and-the-least-on-education-in-one-map/

Edited June 10, 2016 by tesuji

[mordorbund]

18 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Why do we Mormons hate education? Our scriptures teach us that learning is one of the most important things.

Utah is dead last in spending per pupil. So more money is definitely needed. Class sizes in Utah are ridiculous. The states that spend the least per student:

1. Utah ($6,555)
2. Idaho ($6,791)
3. Arizona ($7,208)

Compare this to the states that spend the most:

1. New York ($19,818 per student)
2. Alaska ($18,175)
3. District of Columbia ($17,953)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-states-that-spend-the-most-and-the-least-on-education-in-one-map/

How interesting. DC and NY spend almost 3x per pupil as Utah. How would you rate the results?

Quote

Why do we Mormons hate education? Our scriptures teach us that learning is one of the most important things.

Do they teach schooling is one of the most important things? or is the focus on "learn[ing] obedience" and "light and truth" that "forsake the evil one"?

[Just_A_Guy]

31 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Utah is dead last in spending per pupil. So more money is definitely needed. Class sizes in Utah are ridiculous. The states that spend the least per student:

1. Utah ($6,555)
2. Idaho ($6,791)
3. Arizona ($7,208)

Compare this to the states that spend the most:

1. New York ($19,818 per student)
2. Alaska ($18,175)
3. District of Columbia ($17,953)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-states-that-spend-the-most-and-the-least-on-education-in-one-map/

Tesuji, didn't I already answer this?

Quote

Why do we Mormons hate education? Our scriptures teach us that learning is one of the most important things.

Come now, Tesuji; you know that's not true.  Mormons are one of the most educated demographics in the United States.

But, here's the deal.  If my kids' teacher makes $30K, and I think she should make $60K, and there are twenty kids in the class, then each kid's parent needs to cough up an additional $1500 per kid per year.  I don't have that kind of cash laying around.  Do you?

When those of us with kids, or in the middle class, say that as a society "we" should fund education more fully, we don't really mean "we".  We mean some nebulous group of "they", and we don't really care who "they" is as long as it's not "me".

And to top it all off, when a set of parents says "by thunder, you're right--that is a lot of money!  I can educate my kids myself, for cheaper--so why don't I do us all a favor and pull my kids out of public school?!", we look at those parents like they're freaks. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by Just_A_Guy