Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: take your complaints up with the Lord. I would suggest the same to you. I was making a point. You seem to think the fair thing is for you to have lots of women to make you happy. The problem is, when someone is fixated on "fair", they are usually looking at things from a childish or immature perspective. If "fairness" were your real beef, then the solution would be that everyone, including women, would have "a lot of people to love" (and no, sister wives aren't the same thing as husbands) to achieve "a fullness of joy". I suggest looking deeper into the living and purposes of plural marriage, and not just whether it's fair that you only get one woman and Brother Doe gets 4.
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, Eowyn said: I would suggest the same to you. I was making a point. You seem to think the fair thing is for you to have lots of women to make you happy. The problem is, when someone is fixated on "fair", they are usually looking at things from a childish or immature perspective. If "fairness" were your real beef, then the solution would be that everyone, including women, would have "a lot of people to love" (and no, sister wives aren't the same thing as husbands) to achieve "a fullness of joy". I suggest looking deeper into the living and purposes of plural marriage, and not just whether it's fair that you only get one woman and Brother Doe gets 4. What are the purposes of plural marriage? I'm asking you since it was practiced by Old Testament prophets and 10 of our 16 latter day prophets.
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: What are the purposes of plural marriage? I'm asking you since it was practiced by Old Testament prophets and 10 of our 16 latter day prophets. Read Jacob chapter 2. Needle has asked you several times what you've found in your scripture study, and I have yet to see you answer.
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 I wouldn't even think about polygamy if it hadnt been brought into the church by Joseph Smith and lived by so many prophets.
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: What are the purposes of plural marriage? I'm asking you since it was practiced by Old Testament prophets and 10 of our 16 latter day prophets. Read Jacob chapter 2. Needle has asked you several times what you've found in your scripture study, and I have yet to see you answer.
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, Eowyn said: Read Jacob chapter 2. Needle has asked you several times what you've found in your scripture study, and I have yet to see you answer. Ive read section 132 many times and found in my scripture study that it was commanded to raise a righteous seed. Also section 132 says only men can live it and women who live it will be destroyed.
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: Ive read section 132 many times and found in my scripture study that it was commanded to raise a righteous seed. Also section 132 says only men can live it and women who live it will be destroyed. How do you think this relates to Jacob 2? Do you think God's daughters were made to bring you happiness and have your babies?
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: Ive read section 132 many times and found in my scripture study that it was commanded to raise a righteous seed. Also section 132 says only men can live it and women who live it will be destroyed. How do you think this relates to Jacob 2? Do you think God's daughters were made to bring you happiness and have your babies?
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, Eowyn said: How do you think this relates to Jacob 2? Do you think God's daughters were made to bring you happiness and have your babies? I'm just a single 21 year old guy who follows what scriptures say. Well just look at the sealing ceremony. One gender gives them self to the other gender while the other gender dosent return the favor. I see the sexism as you could call it in the scriptures, endowment and sealing ceremonies so how am I supposed to think?
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 Go through the endowment and sealing ceremonies again and listen to the difference in Covenants between males and females. And add in the scriptures that's where I get my point of view.
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 I believe that what you're talking about in those ordinances refers to God's order. God's house is one of order, so He has provided family organization and gender roles in this life to provide that direction and order. I listen to my husband as he listens to God. Those are the terms I'm bound by. My husband presides in our home, and as the one who holds the priesthood, he has more responsibility to seek guidance from Heavenly Father for our family. It doesn't make him above me or boss, it makes him the presiding priesthood holder. There's more on that in the Proclamation. It doesn't say anything about number of women. It's not sexism, it's not God making the happiness and sex life of men more important than that of women. Really, read Jacob 2 a few times and pray about how that fits in with what you've been extensively studying in D&C.
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 7 minutes ago, Eowyn said: I believe that what you're talking about in those ordinances refers to God's order. God's house is one of order, so He has provided family organization and gender roles in this life to provide that direction and order. I listen to my husband as he listens to God. Those are the terms I'm bound by. My husband presides in our home, and as the one who holds the priesthood, he has more responsibility to seek guidance from Heavenly Father for our family. It doesn't make him above me or boss, it makes him the presiding priesthood holder. There's more on that in the Proclamation. It doesn't say anything about number of women. It's not sexism, it's not God making the happiness and sex life of men more important than that of women. Really, read Jacob 2 a few times and pray about how that fits in with what you've been extensively studying in D&C. It's a problem if Jacob 2 and D&C 132 contradict each other though. One says David and Solomon were justified in their plural wives and the other says it was an abomination. It's so confusing to understand.
Guest Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 The crux of it is that it's only okay when God commands it to raise seed up unto himself. I, as many other women, have agonized over this. Believe me. I love my husband with all of my heart and soul. I can't imagine having to share him with someone else. I can't imagine being alone many nights, knowing he is with his "other". To me, that is most decidedly NOT fair. But I know that spiritually, I am in infancy. My understanding right now is that Heavenly Father would only call us to do this if He had a specific purpose for it. I know that He loves me. I know from Jacob 2 also that He recognizes and cares about the hurt His daughters feel. So I have to take faith in those things, and know that if I were ever called to that, and went forward in faith, He would see me through it. Not only that, He would show me how to be happy. I don't know what the next life will look like for me or for you, but I have to have faith that He wants my happiness even more than I do, and of course in His mercy and perfection, He knows what that will be better than I do. I also know He won't force anyone into anything. You're on the flip side of that coin, but if you can't let go of the idea that you can't be joyful with just one woman, you'll have to exercise the same faith, that either you'll be called to live this principle in the next life, or that you will have every promise and inheritance with your one companion. Have faith that He wants you to be happy, and if you are faithful, He will see that you are. Maybe not in the way that the you now imagines it, but in the best way. His.
estradling75 Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 25 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: It's a problem if Jacob 2 and D&C 132 contradict each other though. One says David and Solomon were justified in their plural wives and the other says it was an abomination. It's so confusing to understand. its only confusing if you don't pay attention to what happened with David and Solomon. They had many wives. Which were justified because they have approval to do so. Then they took wives that they were not approved to take and that was an abomination. Thus both Jacob 2 and D&C 132 are in harmony... they just focus on different sides of the approval process. Jacob focus on what his people were doing.. "Taking many wives without permission" and pointed out that was both David and Solomon's mistake. D&C 132 focus on teaching us how to do it right and that David and Solomon were good in the sight of God in doing so until they transgressed LeSellers, zil, mordorbund and 2 others 5
LeSellers Posted August 1, 2016 Report Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zarahemla said: It's a problem if Jacob 2 and D&C 132 contradict each other though. One says David and Solomon were justified in their plural wives and the other says it was an abomination. It's so confusing to understand. No contradiction when we examine the variety of situations each king was in at different times in his life. David was, in Nathan's words, given his wives, except for the one he took: Bathsheba. Solomon was also given his wives, until he started taking political wives to cement treaties and so on. Then, there's the wording of Jacob. It wasn't David and Solomon who were in the wrong. It was the Nephites who used their Plural Marriages (why do we use the apostate term "polygamy" when it's not the same thing?) to justify their adultery: Quote 23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. Notice that it was not Plural Marriage that was abominable, but the concubines (we can deduce that these were not "wives" of any status, rather than those, like David's or Abraham's concubines who were married, but not of the same social status as their other wives), not marriage, but "whoredoms". In section 132, we read about Celestial Marriage with a few verses about Plural Marriage. No one who reads 132 without bias can claim it's about Plural Marriage (and even less about polygamy or even polygyny) because the scripture is about Eternal Marriage. (In section 19, we read that the adjective "eternal" is one of God's names, so "Eternal Marriage" is "God's Marriage".) The position, that Jacob 2 & 3 contradicts section 132, is based on a shallow reading of the texts. Lehi Edited August 1, 2016 by LeSellers
LeSellers Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) More on the covenant breaking kings of Israel. The commandment: Deut 17 Quote 14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; 15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. 16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. 17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. * There's a difference between "multiplying wives" and "adding wives"; and, the key is "… unto himself". A further element is "his heart … turn away." Solomon failed this test miserably. 18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: 19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: 20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel. Mosiah1&2, along with Benjamin, read v 20 more carefully than any of the Jewish or Israelite kings in the Bible. The prophecy of broken commandments: 1 Sam 8 Quote 11 And [Samuel] said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. 13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. 14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. 16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. 18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. 19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; 20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles. 21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD. 22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city. The fulfillment of the prophecy: 2 Sam 11 Quote 1 And it came to pass, after the year was expired, at the time when kings go forth to battle, that David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the children of Ammon, and besieged Rabbah. But David tarried still at Jerusalem. 2 And it came to pass in an eveningtide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house: and from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon. David would not have broken the law had he done as the Israelites had hoped, that is, had he "[gone] out before [his armies]" instead of tarrying in Jerusalem and having insomnia. The fulfillment of the prophecy: 1 Kings 11 Quote 3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. 4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. Notice that the seven hundred princess were called "wives" while the other three hundred were "concubines", yet the next phrase and the next sentence call them all wives. So, when the Nephites used David and Solomon as their role models, it was not their legitimate wives and marriages they were imagining as being righteous, but those evil acts, adultery (with Bathsheba) and spiritual adultery (Solomon's foreign wives/concubines), they committed outside the covenant of the LORD. Lehi Edited August 2, 2016 by LeSellers
askandanswer Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 9 hours ago, zil said: The eternities is a whole 'nother matter - I mean really, how many eons can you spend with one guy before you feel like saying, "Don't you have another wife you could pester?" I dunno...... You might have the sort of wife that takes an eternity to satisfy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,or You could be the kind of husband that takes an eternity to satisfy your wife So eternity may well be useful
Guest Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 I'm very confused on the subject that's for sure.
zil Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, Zarahemla said: I'm very confused on the subject that's for sure. Then please try this logic: 1) The scriptures are full of things which have been taught from Adam to now and which we are commanded to obey (and pretty much always have been in some form). Think Matthew 5. 2) There are some things in the scriptures which are time / place / person specific (plural marriage, some of the dietary restrictions associated with the Law of Moses, etc.). 3) When you have mastered #1, worry about #2 (I expect by the time you've mastered #1, you'll have had #2 revealed to you). In the meantime, all your questions about #2 can be filed on the shelf labeled "Things I'll Learn About Eventually". Everyone who has studied enough and pondered enough about the Gospel or even just the universe has some of these. This is the same advice I would give to anyone who wants more than what the Lord has already given* - master what you already understand and he will expand your understanding. When you have mastered all that the Lord has already given, he will give you more - 100% guaranteed. *And to be clear, the Lord has NOT given us more understanding of plural marriage. So if what he's given leaves you confused, put it on the shelf for later - later is guaranteed to come and there's no shortage of other things to master. Edited August 2, 2016 by zil LeSellers and NeedleinA 2
Guest Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) 15 hours ago, Zarahemla said: Everyone that has more and more wives is my obvious basis of comparison. Why should Heber C Kimball get 43 wives in eternity and me only 1 if I'm lucky. And what is your scriptural basis that this is not fair? Is not everything the Lord does "fair" in the end? He is perfectly just. How can you get more fair than that? So, if you want to claim that your having one wife is not fair, why not take it up with Him? 9 hours ago, Zarahemla said: I'm very confused on the subject that's for sure. It would appear that your confusion is simply based on your obsession with wanting more than one wife. Edited August 2, 2016 by Guest
Guest Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 I don't have an obsession with having more than one wife, I just want answers if it'll be a possibility for me or not and I havent received an answer one way or the other yet.
estradling75 Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 15 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: I don't have an obsession with having more than one wife, I just want answers if it'll be a possibility for me or not and I havent received an answer one way or the other yet. What part of D&C 132, the Manifesto, and Jacob 2... don't answer your questions
estradling75 Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 15 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: I don't have an obsession with having more than one wife, I just want answers if it'll be a possibility for me or not and I havent received an answer one way or the other yet. What part of D&C 132, the Manifesto, and Jacob 2... don't answer your questions
Guest Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 20 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: I don't have an obsession with having more than one wife, I just want answers if it'll be a possibility for me or not and I havent received an answer one way or the other yet. You "just want answers". But it "won't be fair" if it is not for you while others do have multiple wives. No preconceived notions there.
Guest Posted August 2, 2016 Report Posted August 2, 2016 38 minutes ago, Carborendum said: You "just want answers". But it "won't be fair" if it is not for you while others do have multiple wives. No preconceived notions there. If the Lord or a modern day apostle and prophet today told me I only have 1 wife for eternity, then I'll be satisfied and let the issue cease. If the Lord only wants me to have one then I'm perfectly fine with that, it's just I don't know what the Lord has in store for me.
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