nuclearfuels Posted July 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 44 minutes ago, Anddenex said: This part of this quote is intriguing as it was given in 1881, and then 9 years later the Church abandoned (at that moment and currently) polygamy. In light of polygamy, Mormons were forced to follow the ways of men, rather than the ways of God. Polygamy, I can't see being accepted as a nation by law, except through the viewpoint of religious freedom. We live in a time where we will receive a "restoration" of all things, which includes polygamy. People can argue that it has already been restored and taken away, or people can argue that polygamy existed previously, accepted by the Lord, and will one day be commanded again. As to reasons why, I haven't personally experienced any spiritual witness to agree with your father, or the notion that plagues will result in a declaration to live it once again; however, a plague which would cost human lives...definitely could be a result for the need. As the nation continues to increase in wickedness, we (the world) are already in a state of wickedness where the Lord could come any day now, and yet we still wait. Polygamy could definitely be restored in our lifetime. This may be a reason for greater righteousness, as honorable priesthood holders are able to bear more children with multiple wives. The reality...nothing has been revealed, but if we are honorable priesthood holders we will move forward in righteousness in doing as the Lord commands, or as with other generations we will continue to kick against the pricks, mock the prophets, and leave the Church -- because we know better than the Lord's annointed. I simply have faith and hope, with whatever direction the Lord moves his prophets, seers, and revelators toward I will move forward with them, as I already have witness they are lead by God, as this is his Church. Well said. It's almost more exciting anticipating what will be revealed in coming years, than, i imagine, actually practicing what will be revealed: law of consecration, plural marriage, everybody move to SLC or Missouri, etc. Sunday21 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edspringer Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 5 hours ago, nuclearfuels said: You are correct, my friend. Perhaps I could restate my OP / question: Since we are living in the Last Days and since traditional views on marriage have changed, is it still a great leap to think plural marriage will be legalized and after that, reinstituted? The Last Days are the times of the Restoration of All Things; sounds pretty comprehensive to me Well said, my friend Maybe I haven't made my point clearly, so I apologize. Legalized? Maybe. Authorized and commanded by God after polygamy being legalized? I don't know. nuclearfuels 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclearfuels Posted July 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said: ???? Polygamy doesn't increase population growth unless there is something which selectively killed a bunch of men and not women (a very unlikely event). Barring those highly unusual circumstance, the most efficient way to increase population is to 1) have women have lots of babies and 2) make sure those babies live to adulthood and are provide for. Monogamy actually fulfills both of these most efficiently: the woman has a man to herself all the time and hence lots of copulation opportunities, and the children have a less divided father to better provide for them. Unless of course men don't marry as much today as they did in prior generations... Or, unless some married women can't have children..... Or, unless some married women can't have as many children as they'd like.... More men will die in wars; leaving fewer men to repopulate the earth. Leaving two options for our gifted lawmakers: do nothing - have smaller and smaller pools of people to pay taxes - or - legalize plural marriage, keep taxing as if there's no tomorrow. What to Expect when no one's expecting is a good book and lecture to read; provides data on declining populations globally, mostly in industrialized, supposedly civilized countries. References help validate claims you make. Jonathan Last - What to Expect When No One's Expecting - YouTube ▶ 1:10:29 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhnOyFs3Ses Dec 16, 2014 - Uploaded by Love and Fidelity Network Jonathan Last - What to Expect When No One's Expecting. Love and Fidelity Network ... Baby Bust: What to Expect When No One's Expecting - CBN.com ... ▶ 11:03 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yks8Q32gGEE Feb 11, 2013 - Uploaded by CBN News Weekly Standard senior writer Jonathan Last warns that unless we change our views about the value of raising ... Jonathan Last discusses What to Expect When No One's Expecting on ... ▶ 3:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GarNrJklUw Feb 5, 2013 - Uploaded by Michael Warren Jonathan V. Last, senior writer at the Weekly Standard and author of the new book, "What to Expect When No ... Jonathan Last on 'What to Expect When No One's Expecting' - YouTube ▶ 17:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mXfB97mcgE Feb 18, 2013 - Uploaded by EdDriscollcom I've long enjoyed Jonathan Last's articles at the Weekly Standard, whether it's an iconoclastic look at who ... Jonathan Last: What to Expect When No One's Expecting - YouTube ▶ 1:28:03 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o-aesvJ1T8 Dec 19, 2013 - Uploaded by PCGatHarvard Jonathan Last, on his new book, What to Expect When No One's Expecting, the demographic problem faced ... CBN TV - Baby Bust: What to Expect When No One's Expecting ▶ www.cbn.com/tv/2157363350001 Baby Bust: What to Expect When No One's Expecting. Baby Bust: What to Expect When No One's Expecting ... Words Jonathan Last | Video | C-SPAN.org ▶ 55:11 www.c-span.org/video/?310316-1/words-jonathan-last Jan 22, 2013 After Words with Jonathan Last Author Jonathan Last talks about his book, What to Expect When No One's ... WHAT TO EXPECT WHEN NO ONES EXPECTINGBy Jonathan V ... ▶ 0:26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZo0x9fDJNI Feb 17, 2016 - Uploaded by Hanata WHAT TO EXPECT WHEN NO ONES EXPECTINGBy Jonathan V LastWhat to Expect When No Ones ... Jonathan Last, "What to Expect When No One's Expecting" - YouTube ▶ 10:06 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc7KTu1T-E8 Feb 4, 2013 - Uploaded by BookTV Mr. Last discusses the population implosion in the U.S. and it's impact on the economy, culture and politics. He ... What to Expect When No One's Expecting - Family Research Council ▶ www.frc.org/.../what-to-expect-when-no-ones-expecting What to Expect When No One's Expecting. April 03, 2013 12:00 ET ( 2,940 views). Everything you know ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclearfuels Posted July 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 4 hours ago, NeedleinA said: A retired nuclear materials engineer, who is an unabashed and active Mormon, with a side order of Hindu and Buddhism curiosity. Also, an active, unabashed LDS, of the Restoration time-frame in leanings Blackmarch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerome1232 Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: ???? Polygamy doesn't increase population growth unless there is something which selectively killed a bunch of men and not women (a very unlikely event). Barring those highly unusual circumstance, the most efficient way to increase population is to 1) have women have lots of babies and 2) make sure those babies live to adulthood and are provide for. Monogamy actually fulfills both of these most efficiently: the woman has a man to herself all the time and hence lots of copulation opportunities, and the children have a less divided father to better provide for them. Mostly for the sake of debate and because I like to take the underdog position. War tends to do that. Besides I thought calamities do as a matter of fact take more men's lives than women's. Not because the calamity itself is selective but because, well gender roles. Men tend (note this is a generality, not applicable to each and every individual) to be the ones that face danger and serve a protection role for women and children. Also, as a side thought.... what about wealth? It's unequally distributed. Couldn't wealthy men afford to have much larger families than poor men? That's how polygamy tended to work in past times isn't it. Wealthy guys got the girls because they could afford it. Edited July 15, 2016 by jerome1232 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeedleinA Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 (edited) On 7/14/2016 at 0:54 PM, nuclearfuels said: My father was often called a prophet, and years ago in Nauvoo I heard him predict... Maybe a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance of it happening in our lifetime. So...there is a distinct possibility that your father might be correct. Edited July 15, 2016 by NeedleinA Anddenex, jerome1232 and nuclearfuels 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 On 7/14/2016 at 10:54 AM, nuclearfuels said: My father was often called a prophet, By who? and what are the winning lottery numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 49 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said: By who? and what are the winning lottery numbers? nuclearfuels' OP appears to be entirely a quote from the source at the bottom of said post. You're not the only one to assume otherwise. Hopefully s/he figures out the quoting button so that future posts are more clear. NeedleinA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 Isn't polygamy worthy of immediate excommunication from the church? How could that ever be brought back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 24 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: Isn't polygamy worthy of immediate excommunication from the church? How could that ever be brought back? Polygamy is a practice that can be instituted or removed at any given time. When removed, if the consequence is excommunication then so the consequence is. If instituted again, then it is practiced. Edspringer, Just_A_Guy and LeSellers 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 A note about polygamy. My great grandfather was instructed to live polygamy - he was not happy about it but did so because he was commanded by a prophet. But he also wrote in his personal journal that many leaders in the Church (mostly at stake and ward levels) were abusing the commandment and as a result he prophesied that not only would the commandment of polygamy be taken from the earth but that the Church would come under great condemnation for the abuses. I believe there is enough abuse in our current marriage covenants - that if anything - blessing will be taken from our generation - not added. The Traveler Edspringer, Blackmarch and jerome1232 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 Does anyone think it will be reinstated by the Lord during the Millennium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edspringer Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 9 hours ago, Traveler said: A note about polygamy. My great grandfather was instructed to live polygamy - he was not happy about it but did so because he was commanded by a prophet. But he also wrote in his personal journal that many leaders in the Church (mostly at stake and ward levels) were abusing the commandment and as a result he prophesied that not only would the commandment of polygamy be taken from the earth but that the Church would come under great condemnation for the abuses. I believe there is enough abuse in our current marriage covenants - that if anything - blessing will be taken from our generation - not added. The Traveler Very nice information, Traveler. Thanx for sharing. I wish I could get more information on the matter from you, since you have an ancestor who was commanded to live polygamy. Can you fill us in with more details, if possible? I believe, like you, that in our generation many things will be taken from us due to the lack of faith, especially among us saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edspringer Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 9 hours ago, Traveler said: A note about polygamy. My great grandfather was instructed to live polygamy - he was not happy about it but did so because he was commanded by a prophet. But he also wrote in his personal journal that many leaders in the Church (mostly at stake and ward levels) were abusing the commandment and as a result he prophesied that not only would the commandment of polygamy be taken from the earth but that the Church would come under great condemnation for the abuses. I believe there is enough abuse in our current marriage covenants - that if anything - blessing will be taken from our generation - not added. The Traveler Very nice information, Traveler. Thanx for sharing. I wish I could get more information on the matter from you, since you have an ancestor who was commanded to live polygamy. Can you fill us in with more details, if possible? I believe, like you, that in our generation many things will be taken from us due to the lack of faith, especially among us saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 20 minutes ago, Edspringer said: I believe, like you, that in our generation many things will be taken from us due to the lack of faith, especially among us saints. That's an interesting thought. I tend to think slightly opposite - that things will be given to us, and those who aren't faithful will see these things as onerous (or as unreasonable, or hateful, or similar) and will leave the church over them. Greater light and knowledge must, by definition, include expectation to live a higher law, and if you're not ready for it, that will seem like punishment rather than blessing... Now I need to ponder this idea more. Anddenex and SilentOne 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edspringer Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 29 minutes ago, zil said: That's an interesting thought. I tend to think slightly opposite - that things will be given to us, and those who aren't faithful will see these things as onerous (or as unreasonable, or hateful, or similar) and will leave the church over them. Greater light and knowledge must, by definition, include expectation to live a higher law, and if you're not ready for it, that will seem like punishment rather than blessing... Now I need to ponder this idea more. As long as people have faith, miracles will have a place among us. When faith fails, miracles and the mysteries of God will cease to be given. That’s scripture. I agree when you said that greater light and knowledge must include expectation to live a higher level. Sacred and pure truths will only be conferred upon those who are so willing to live by them. Sunday21 and zil 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) Those who practiced polygamy in the 1800s and had sexual relations with their multiple partners broke temple Covenants. The covenant is to have no sexual relations except with your spouse whom you are legally and lawfully wedded to. Just one problem. Back then polygamists only had 1 legal wife recognized by law and the other women were not considered legally or lawfully wed. They were having sex with women they weren't legally and lawfully wed to, thus breaking temple covenants. Edited July 16, 2016 by Zarahemla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeSellers Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 16 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: Those who practiced polygamy in the 1800s and had sexual relations with their multiple partners broke temple Covenants. The covenant is to have no sexual relations except with your spouse whom you are legally and lawfully wedded to. Just one problem. Back then polygamists only had 1 legal wife recognized by law and the other women were not considered legally or lawfully wed. They were having sex with women they weren't legally and lawfully wed to, thus breaking temple covenants. Nay, sir, not so. It's my assumption that God altered the Temple covenants to accommodate the needs of the people. He commanded us to cease the practice of Plural Marriage, and He doubtless amended His covenant. Further "legally and lawfully" does not necessarily mean according to the laws of the land, but according to His law. These two assertions are not mutually exclusive, btw. Is it your goal to denigrate the prophets of bygone eras? If so, begone! Lehi NeedleinA and Just_A_Guy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeedleinA Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 24 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: Those who practiced polygamy in the 1800s and had sexual relations with their multiple partners broke temple Covenants. The covenant is to have no sexual relations except with your spouse whom you are legally and lawfully wedded to. Just one problem. Back then polygamists only had 1 legal wife recognized by law and the other women were not considered legally or lawfully wed. They were having sex with women they weren't legally and lawfully wed to, thus breaking temple covenants. We have a cute word we use when something is both bad(inaccurate) and wrong = "ba-dong" Sorry Zarahemla, but your post in this case is big time ba-dong LeSellers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 21 minutes ago, LeSellers said: Nay, sir, not so. It's my assumption that God altered the Temple covenants to accommodate the needs of the people. He commanded us to cease the practice of Plural Marriage, and He doubtless amended His covenant. Further "legally and lawfully" does not necessarily mean according to the laws of the land, but according to His law. These two assertions are not mutually exclusive, btw. Is it your goal to denigrate the prophets of bygone eras? If so, begone! Lehi Why do you automatically think so negatively of me? That's not very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeSellers Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, Zarahemla said: Why do you automatically think so negatively of me? That's not very nice. It wasn't automatic. I read your post and found it negative in the extreme. You blatantly accused Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, John Taylor, and thousands of other righteous men (and their wives, too) of adultery and breaking Temple covenants. There was no weasel-wording here, it was a bald-faced accusation. 20 hours ago, Zarahemla said: Those who practiced polygamy in the 1800s and had sexual relations with their multiple partners broke temple Covenants. I recall a phrase from the Temple myself: "evil speaking of …". 'Tseems you may have been projecting. Lehi Edited July 17, 2016 by LeSellers NeedleinA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 8 hours ago, Zarahemla said: They were having sex with women they weren't legally and lawfully wed to, thus breaking temple covenants. Zarahemla, as LeSellers had mentioned, legally and lawfully wed is in the frame of reference from God's view. As polygamy was a commandment/counsel from the Lord, those who practiced polygamy were indeed legally and lawfully wedded to each other. Doctrine and Covenants 132: 35, "Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it." The early church members were not under condemnation, as the Lord commanded it. I would recommend that you read verses 60-62, same section, regarding temple covenant and adultery. NeedleinA, LeSellers and jerome1232 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Apparently there are lots of prophets in this forum? I have to ask, how can any of you claim to know whether polygamy will return or not in our lifetimes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeedleinA Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said: Apparently there are lots of prophets in this forum? I have to ask, how can any of you claim to know whether polygamy will return or not in our lifetimes? None of us are the prophet, therefore none of us could say with certainty one way or another. I hope my Dumb & Dumber joke of 1 in 1,000,000 was only taken as a joke and not as some kind of attempt at a prophetic statement. Since the question can be answered with a "yes" or "no" response, that means any of us have 50% odds of being correct out of shear luck, but no thanks to being called of God to declare what will or will not happen with polygamy. Edited July 17, 2016 by NeedleinA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 On 7/14/2016 at 11:54 AM, nuclearfuels said: My father was often called a prophet, and years ago in Nauvoo I heard him predict that it would yet become a law of this nation that men should marry a plurality of wives. The Prophet Joseph was heard to say that in consequence of wars and disasters, men would become so scarce that when one was seen it would be said of him, “There goes a man.” The following we read in Isaiah: “Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war. And her gates shall lament and mourn: and she being desolate, shall sit upon the ground. And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man saying: We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.” If “coming events cast their shadows before,” we certainly have no cause to doubt the speedy fulfillment of this prediction. The first great commandment given by the Creator has nearly become obsolete among professed Christians, who set themselves up as our judges, and assume to be followers of the meek and lowly Jesus, but instead, have departed from His precepts, choosing only such portions of the scriptures as happen to suit their own ideas, and ignoring the rest; while the Latter-day Saints, whom they call heretics, accept it entirely, and believe it to be their duty to obey every requirement of the gospel held forth by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Instead of spiritualizing it, we believe it means exactly what it says in both the Old and the New Testaments. As other sects have already followed in the footsteps of the “Mormons” in certain of their doctrines, we need not be surprised to eventually hear of their advocating and legalizing polygamy. Great exertions have been made by them to enlighten the minds of the awfully ignorant and depraved “Mormons,” who have rightly appreciated the same and also realize how much more interest they have taken in our behalf since they found that instead of perishing, as they had hoped we would, we were still living and increasing in wealth, power and influence, away off here in the valleys of the Rocky Mountains. They send their Bible agents for the purpose, as we suppose, of convincing us of our errors by the scriptures, for which we are thankful, as we are more than anxious that the rising generation in Zion should understand the scriptures, as our doctrine is founded upon that sacred record. Woman’s Exponent, vol. 10, no. 11, 1 November 1881, p. 83 Jeni Broberg Holzapfel and Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, eds., A Woman’s View: Helen Mar Whitney’s Reminiscences of Early Church History (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1997), 135–239. https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/womans-view-helen-mar-whitneys-reminiscences-early-church-history/5-scenes-and-incidents I wouldn't be surprised. If not before, then certainly after the resurrection, if only to allow those who were in righteous polygamous marriages to continue fulfilling them if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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