Why was Moses (but not Enoch or Elijah) in the spirit world?

[rygard1]

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mark 9:2-4)

The JST for the last verse in the preceding passage is as follows:

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses, or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.

Now, the fact that Joseph Smith’s translation indicates that John the Baptist appeared to Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration does not mean that “Elias”, the Greek form of Elijah, was originally meant to refer to someone other than Elijah, so that it can be concluded that in addition to Moses and Elijah John the Baptist was also present.  It is generally accepted LDS belief that Moses and Elijah must have been translated beings at the time of their appearance on the Mount of Transfiguration, because if they had been unembodied spirits at that time they could not have transferred priesthood keys to Peter, James and John.  Given this understanding it logically follows that John the Baptist did not transfer priesthood keys at this time as he had previously been beheaded and could not have yet been resurrected.  The following verses indicate that Moses, Elijah and John the Baptist (among others who are mentioned) were resurrected following Christ’s resurrection:

In all their afflictions he was afflicted. And the angel of his presence saved them; and in his love, and in his pity, he redeemed them, and bore them, and carried them all the days of old;
Yea, and Enoch also, and they who were with him; the prophets who were before him; and Noah also, and they who were before him; and Moses also, and they who were before him;
And from Moses to Elijah, and from Elijah to John, who were with Christ in his resurrection, and the holy apostles, with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, shall be in the presence of the Lamb. (D&C 133:53-55)

The following verses from D&C 138 mention Elijah and Elias:

Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;
And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.
The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers, (D&C 138:45-47)

The preceding verses indicate that Elias and Malachi were among those who “… were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world…” (D&C 138:16).  Elijah is mentioned, but there is no indication that he was “Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous…” (D&C 138:38)  Taken as a whole, section 138 seem to imply that Elijah was not in the spirit world during Christ’s ministry to the spirits in paradise.  Since it is commonly supposed that Elijah was a translated being until his resurrection, this would be unremarkable if it were not for the fact that “…Moses, the great law-giver of Israel…” (D&C 138:41) is referred to as being present in the spirit world during Christ ministry in paradise.  D&C 138 is conspicuously absent of any mention of Enoch, who would have been a translated being until his resurrection after the resurrection of Christ, as D&C 133:54 would seem to suggest.

According to the following passages from Deuteronomy and Joshua, Moses died:

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.
And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. (Deut. 34:5-7)

Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying,
Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. (Josh. 1:1-2)

The following verse is the only verse of which I am aware that suggest that Moses did not die:

Behold, this we know, that he was a righteous man; and the saying went abroad in the church that he was taken up by the Spirit, or buried by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses. But behold, the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself; therefore, for this cause we know nothing concerning his death and burial. (Alma 45:19)

According to the verse in Alma “the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself”.  There are at least a Jewish tradition that Moses was overshadowed by a cloud and taken up into heaven, and something such as this may have been included on the brass plates; but it is apparent that after Moses died sometime after his appearance to Peter, James and John, otherwise he would not have been in the spirit world prior to his resurrection.  LDS tradition, if it can be called that, maintains that Moses was translated and was changed in the twinkling of an eye following Christ’s resurrection.  Again, neither Enoch nor Elijah seems to have been in the spirit world prior to their resurrection, but Moses was, which is consistent with the hypothesis that he died.  If so, why would he (or John the Baptist for that matter) have appeared to Peter, James and John? 

Moses, Elijah and Elias.docx

[LeSellers]

Interesting question.

Why do you ask?

Lehi

[Guest]

 

@rygard1, 

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about what is NOT written.  Why do you wish to know about an assumption you're already taking as fact?

[Just_A_Guy]

3 Nephi 28:39 tells us that the physical change involved with translation is not equal to the physical change involved with resurrection.  Elijah et al. would still have looked at Christ's resurrection as a deliverance, their embodied states notwithstanding.  So, the real question is whether translated beings who are taken to heaven go a) to the spirit world, b) directly into God's presence, or c) into some unrevealed "elite club" consisting solely of other translated beings.  Option b) seems problematic given D&C 138:51 (entry into Father's kingdom, immortality and eternal life predicated on *resurrection*); and option c) seems both unlikely and doctrinally unsupported.  But I know of no reason why option a) could not be the case--is there some scientific law that embodied beings cannot enter the spirit realm?

John the Baptist's presence on the mount of transfiguration strikes me as being the real head-scratcher; unless his role was merely to serve as someone known to the disciples, who could have confirmed the identity of the other embodied divine messengers.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

3 Nephi 28:39 tells us that the physical change involved with translation is not equal to the physical change involved with resurrection.  Elijah et al. would still have looked at Christ's resurrection as a deliverance, their embodied states notwithstanding.  So, the real question is whether translated beings who are taken to heaven go a) to the spirit world, b) directly into God's presence, or c) into some unrevealed "elite club" consisting solely of other translated beings.  Option b) seems problematic given D&C 138:51 (entry into Father's kingdom, immortality and eternal life predicated on *resurrection*); and option c) seems both unlikely and doctrinally unsupported.  But I know of no reason why option a) could not be the case--is there some scientific law that embodied beings cannot enter the spirit realm?

John the Baptist's presence on the mount of transfiguration strikes me as being the real head-scratcher; unless his role was merely to serve as someone known to the disciples, who could have confirmed the identity of the other embodied divine messengers.

Quote

"Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead" (TPJS, p. 170).

While this quote doesn't necessarily give any details about where or what their existence is like, it would offer some doctrinal support for such an idea.  

But like you, I have no problem believing that translated beings can visit the spirit world as they please.  John Taylor, while still a mortal, was said to have been able to go back and forth into the spirit world as easily as we walk from one room to another.  If a mortal in this telestial world can do so, why wouldn't a terrestrial embodied being be able to do so?

Edited August 18, 2016 by Guest

[CV75]

4 hours ago, rygard1 said:

Again, neither Enoch nor Elijah seems to have been in the spirit world prior to their resurrection, but Moses was, which is consistent with the hypothesis that he died.  If so, why would he (or John the Baptist for that matter) have appeared to Peter, James and John? 

A translated person still requires resurrection (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/translated-beings?lang=eng), and not all persons are resurrected at once (Alma 40:5).

[mordorbund]

Moses and Elijah ties D&C 110 to the Mount of Transfiguration.

John the Baptist ties D&C 138 to the Mount of Transfiguration (read what the angel says his mission is and contrast it with the prophecy in Malachi and D&C 2).

[Edspringer]

8 hours ago, rygard1 said:

LDS tradition, if it can be called that, maintains that Moses was translated and was changed in the twinkling of an eye following Christ’s resurrection.  Again, neither Enoch nor Elijah seems to have been in the spirit world prior to their resurrection, but Moses was, which is consistent with the hypothesis that he died.  If so, why would he (or John the Baptist for that matter) have appeared to Peter, James and John? 

Moses, Elijah and Elias.docx

 

5 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 So, the real question is whether translated beings who are taken to heaven go a) to the spirit world, b) directly into God's presence, or c) into some unrevealed "elite club" consisting solely of other translated beings.  Option b) seems problematic given D&C 138:51 (entry into Father's kingdom, immortality and eternal life predicated on *resurrection*); and option c) seems both unlikely and doctrinally unsupported.  But I know of no reason why option a) could not be the case--is there some scientific law that embodied beings cannot enter the spirit realm?

John the Baptist's presence on the mount of transfiguration strikes me as being the real head-scratcher; unless his role was merely to serve as someone known to the disciples, who could have confirmed the identity of the other embodied divine messengers.

There are these kinds of beings and their places of habitation:

• ·         Spirit beings in their first estate – spirit realm (we don’t know where it is);

• ·         Mortal beings with bodies of flesh and bones and spirit (this Earth);

• ·         Translated beings (this Earth and the spirit world);

• ·         Spirit beings temporally separated from their spirit (spirit world);

• ·         Resurrected beings:

o   Before the Final Judgment (dwell in the presence of God, spirit world, city of Enoch, other realm unknown to us);

o   After the Final Judgment (one of the three degrees of glory or the outer darkness).

So, thinking about the kind of being, it becomes easier to know (or actually think where this being might be) the location or locations of each kind.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, mordorbund said:

John the Baptist ties D&C 138 to the Mount of Transfiguration (read what the angel says his mission is and contrast it with the prophecy in Malachi and D&C 2).

What angel?

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

There are these kinds of beings and their places of habitation:

         Translated beings (this Earth and the spirit world);

         Spirit beings temporally separated from their spirit (spirit world);

         Resurrected beings:

o   Before the Final Judgment (dwell in the presence of God, spirit world, city of Enoch, other realm unknown to us);

I don't agree with these.  Do you have a quote or doctrinal basis for this?

1. The translated beings can move about and go to Earth and the spirit world.  But I wouldn't say that either is their "place of habitation".
2. I believe the bolded "spirit" above was supposed to be 'bodies'.
3. With regard to this earth and its inhabitants, a resurrected being has already had his final judgment, so this is a non sequitur (the literary kind, not the logical kind).

Edited August 18, 2016 by Guest

[LeSellers]

5 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Interesting question.

Why do you ask?

I haven't seen an answer to my query. So, again, why do you ask?

Lehi

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I haven't seen an answer to my query. So, again, why do you ask?

Lehi

He's left the board.  He may either only have limited time to visit the board, OR, he's the "drop bait and run" type of poster.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Guest

[mordorbund]

23 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What angel?

Gabriel (see Luke 1:17).

[Just_A_Guy]

41 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

 

There are these kinds of beings and their places of habitation:

 

• ·         Spirit beings in their first estate – spirit realm (we don’t know where it is);

   

• ·         Mortal beings with bodies of flesh and bones and spirit (this Earth);

   

• ·         Translated beings (this Earth and the spirit world);

   

• ·         Spirit beings temporally separated from their spirit (spirit world);

   

• ·         Resurrected beings:

   

o   Before the Final Judgment (dwell in the presence of God, spirit world, city of Enoch, other realm unknown to us);

 

o   After the Final Judgment (one of the three degrees of glory or the outer darkness).

 

So, thinking about the kind of being, it becomes easier to know (or actually think where this being might be) the location or locations of each kind.

 

But:

a)  Is the spirit realm/spirit world the same place (ie, do spirits who are waiting for birth, populate the same realm as spirits who have died and await the Resurrection?)

b)  Isn't there a statement out there from Brigham Young suggesting that the spirit world is here, on this earth?

[LeSellers]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

7 hours ago, LeSellers said:

I haven't seen an answer to my query. So, again, why do you ask?

He's left the board.  He may either only have limited time to visit the board, OR, he's the "drop bait and run" type of poster.

That's one reason I try (not always successfully) to figure out where a new poster is coming from before answering this kind of tenet-based question.

Since mine was the first response, and this topic now has buried it, I am trying to elicit that response. Not necessarily to goad him, but to make sure he sees the question.

Lehi

Edited August 19, 2016 by LeSellers

[rygard1]

Carborendum: you said “You're making an awful lot of assumptions about what is NOT written.  Why do you wish to know about an assumption you're already taking as fact?”  
Yes, the absence of any indication in D&C 138 that Enoch and Elijah were in the spirit world does not logically guarantee that they were not.  It does seem odd to me, however, that D&C 138 seems to suggest, when JST Mark 9:3 is taken into consideration, that “Elias” meaning John the Baptist (at least) was in the spirit world.  If Joseph F. Smith were referring to John the Baptist, why could he not simply say so?  Especially if Elijah were also in the spirit world?  The fact that “Elias” is mentioned in verse 45 in connection with the Mount of Transfiguration seems to be an obvious reference to JST Mark 9:3, otherwise why would “Elijah” be mentioned in verses 46 and 47?  If the fact that Elijah is mentioned in verses 46 and 47 appears to strengthen the case that verse 45 is referring to John the Baptist, this only makes sense if the individual mentioned in verses 46 and 47 is not the same individual mentioned in verse 45.  As I see it, the likely possibilities are that “Elias” in verse 45 is a reference to Elijah using the language of the English KJV, so that John the Baptist is not mentioned at all, or John the Baptist is the individual mentioned in this verse.  However, one could assume that “Elias” might simultaneously refer to Elijah and John the Baptist, and this might be the easiest but strangest assumption to make.  It is true that D&C 138 says nothing about Enoch; but the fact that Elijah is expressly mentioned multiple times, and immediately after the Mount of Transfiguration is mentioned, is somewhat odd whether or not these verses are meant to convey the idea that Elijah was in the spirit world.
            Also, I’m glad you brought up the following statement from TPJS; it is partly because of this and similar statements that it seems odd to me that translated beings would reside in the spirit world, even if only temporarily unless they are involved in missionary work.  

"Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead" (TPJS, p. 170).

It is evident that Elijah and Moses were not involved in missionary work in the spirit world because they were resurrected after Christ’s resurrection.  Unless they were only there to strengthen the others in paradise it seems like a waste of spiritual power.  I have read accounts of near death experiences, particularly in Duane S. Crowther’s book “Life Everlasting” which seem to indicate that resurrected beings can visit or even inhabit the spirit world.  Resurrected beings, at least, are referred to in Alma 11 and 1 Cor. 15 as being “spiritual”, and so I see no reason why this could not be true.  Pre-mortal spirits are thought to dwell in “heaven” and in this scenario there is of course no reason for resurrected beings to be unable to dwell in the same environment as unembodied spirits.  D&C 129:1-3 is also worth considering:

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

The fact that D&C 129 says nothing about translated beings does not exclude the possibility that translated beings could reside in the presence of God, but this section does not indicate that this is the case, nor do other statements from Joseph Smith such as the statement you quoted.  I have also thought that the statement by Joseph Smith you quoted is interesting given this statement by Joseph Smith:

I answer, Yes.  But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it. (D&C 130:5)

My current interpretation of the preceding verse is that the angels who minister to this earth have either had a mortal experience upon it or will have a mortal experience upon it.  If so, within this context Joseph Smith was referring generally to all messengers of God.  If both statements are true as I understand them then it would appear that this earth is unique in the sense that individuals who have “belonged” to this earth can minster to those on other planets, while those who do belong or will belong to any other planet cannot minister to those on this earth.  If I remember correctly, in Hugh Nibley’s talk “Secrets of the Scriptures” he mentioned that there are early century Christian documents in which the idea is expressed that the mortal probation experienced by those who inhabit this earth is a more difficult test or period of proving than that experienced by those who inhabit other worlds.  This is an unusual proposition, but perhaps there are other beings more spiritually advanced than ourselves who were sent to terrestrial worlds rather than telestial worlds.

mordorbund: You mentioned D&C 110, and I hadn’t thought to use this section in connection with this topic, but interestingly the same pattern is found in section 110, where “Elias” who “committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham” is mentioned in verse 12, and then “Elijah” is mentioned in verses 13 and 14.  In this context it is obvious that Elijah is not the person referred to in verse 12 as he was not alive in the days of Abraham; I have thought that perhaps the individual in verse 12 might be Melchizedek.

LeSellers: You have wondered why I have asked this question.  It isn’t as though I wouldn’t like to know more about Moses, Elijah and Enoch, but my primary reason for thinking about this in the first place has been to gain a greater understanding of the plan of salvation as a whole.

Edited August 19, 2016 by rygard1

[Guest]

4 hours ago, rygard1 said:

Yes, the absence of any indication in D&C 138 that Enoch and Elijah were in the spirit world does not logically guarantee that they were not.

That should be the end of the line of reasoning.  But I guess you decided to continue into non sequitur territory.  Ok.  Let's explore.

4 hours ago, rygard1 said:

 It does seem odd to me, however, that D&C 138 seems to suggest, when JST Mark 9:3 is taken into consideration, that “Elias” meaning John the Baptist (at least) was in the spirit world. 

I get the connections you're making.  But I don't see how you're arriving at any conclusion from such connections.  Elias was John the Baptist --IN THIS CONTEXT.  Beyond that, what are you finding so odd?  When is it that you're saying John the Baptist was in the spirit world?  Of course he was in the spirit world after he died.  That's where all those who pass on go to.  Why wouldn't he be?

4 hours ago, rygard1 said:

 If Joseph F. Smith were referring to John the Baptist, why could he not simply say so?  
Especially if Elijah were also in the spirit world?  
The fact that “Elias” is...

I'm going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've never read this:  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/elias?lang=eng. From that we understand that depending on the context and particular episode we are discussing, "Elias" can mean one of several people.

That said. I don't know why you're obsessing over who was or was not in the spirit world.  Does Joseph F. Smith HAVE TO enumerate every individual who ever lived?  Why didn't he mention Jeremiah?  Why not Samuel?  OH!  They didn't make it.  They're in Spirit Prison!  Why not Lorenzo Snow?  He mentioned all the modern prophets before himself, but not Pres. Snow.  He must not have made it. Jethro?  Joshua? Methuselah?

The section is long enough with the list as it is.  Did you really expect it to be complete?

" And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages" appears to be enough to cover all the women in history.  But "among the great and mighty ones" does not seem to cover Enoch and others?  "even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites..." covers all of them?  How about Alma?  He apparently was translated.  Or are you going to use this as evidence that he was NOT translated?

Consistency, please.

How are you jumping to the conclusion that they were NOT in the spirit world?  And even if they weren't why is that a problem for you?

4 hours ago, rygard1 said:

It is evident that Elijah and Moses were not involved in missionary work in the spirit world because they were resurrected after Christ’s resurrection.  Unless they were only there to strengthen the others in paradise it seems like a waste of spiritual power.  

How's that?  What is the logical path you're using to get to that conclusion.  I've read your posts and there is no logic.  This is really the definition of non sequitur.  Please provide a logical path.  Resurrection has something to do with missionary work?

4 hours ago, rygard1 said:

I have read accounts of near death experiences, particularly in Duane S. Crowther’s book “Life Everlasting”

Mmm-hmmm.  Listen, you're really going all over the map on this topic.  How about if you stop, take a deep breath, start with one question and one statement of logic instead of an epic post every time you want to say something?  Try to be concise.

4 hours ago, rygard1 said:

The fact that D&C 129 says nothing about translated beings does not exclude the possibility that translated beings could reside in the presence of God, but this section does not indicate that this is the case, nor do other statements from Joseph Smith such as the statement you quoted.  I have also thought that the statement by Joseph Smith you quoted is interesting given this statement by Joseph Smith:

I answer, Yes.  But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it. (D&C 130:5)

My current interpretation of the preceding verse is that the angels who minister to this earth have either had a mortal experience upon it or will have a mortal experience upon it.  If so, within this context Joseph Smith was referring generally to all messengers of God.  If both statements are true as I understand them then it would appear that this earth is unique in the sense that individuals who have “belonged” to this earth can minster to those on other planets, while those who do belong or will belong to any other planet cannot minister to those on this earth.  If I remember correctly, in Hugh Nibley’s talk “Secrets of the Scriptures” he mentioned that there are early century Christian documents in which the idea is expressed that the mortal probation experienced by those who inhabit this earth is a more difficult test or period of proving than that experienced by those who inhabit other worlds.  This is an unusual proposition, but perhaps there are other beings more spiritually advanced than ourselves who were sent to terrestrial worlds rather than telestial worlds.

And, so what's the problem?

In the end, you'll have to admit this is much ado about nothing.  You might as well ask why the Romper Room lady mentioned most of the names of the kids in my class, but missed three of them. Why did she miss three of them?

[rygard1]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, the absence of any indication in D&C 138 that Enoch and Elijah were in the spirit world does not logically guarantee that they were not.

That should be the end of the line of reasoning.  But I guess you decided to continue into non sequitur territory.  Ok.  Let's explore.

 It does seem odd to me, however, that D&C 138 seems to suggest, when JST Mark 9:3 is taken into consideration, that “Elias” meaning John the Baptist (at least) was in the spirit world. 

I get the connections you're making.  But I don't see how you're arriving at any conclusion from such connections.  Elias was John the Baptist --IN THIS CONTEXT.  Beyond that, what are you finding so odd?  When is it that you're saying John the Baptist was in the spirit world?  Of course he was in the spirit world after he died.  That's where all those who pass on go to.  Why wouldn't he be?

Yes, of course John the Baptist was in the spirit world, I said nothing to the contrary.  Your emphasis on the phrase “IN THIS CONTEXT” seems to imply that Elias is John the Baptist in one context but not in another.  So, in one context Elijah (Greek Elias) and John the Baptist (referred to in the JST as Elias) appeared to Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration.  In another context an individual referred to as Elias, who was with Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration is spoken of as being in the spirit world prior to Christ’s resurrection.  You seem to think that it is odd that I find anything odd about this.  The following hypothetical scenarios are based upon the assumption that Joseph F. Smith intended to say something meaningful when he referred to Elias. 

Scenario 1: Joseph F. Smith was referring to John the Baptist.  This is consistent with the usage of “Elias” in JST Mark 9:3.  To my knowledge the title “Elias” is only applied in the scriptures to one person at a time; for instance, John the Baptist did not simultaneously refer to himself and Christ as “Elias”.  He stated that he was Elias, but specified that he was “not that Elias who was to restore all things.” (JST John 1:21-22)  Elijah, the prototypical Elias, prepared the way for Elishah and restored priesthood keys to various individuals, fulfilling both missions of an “Elias”.  D&C 27:7 speaks of two individuals who are “Elias”, Gabriel and John the Baptist; but neither instance of the word “Elias” in this verse refers to both individuals simultaneously.  Unless D&C 138:45 is a scriptural anomaly with no precedent whatsoever, if Joseph F. Smith is referring to John the Baptist, he is not referring to Elijah.

Scenario 2: Joseph F. Smith was referring to Elijah, and was therefore not referring to John the Baptist.  Yes, they are both “Elias”, but if they are simultaneously referred to as “Elias” this is a unique occurrence of this usage of the term “Elias”. 

Either way, Joseph F. Smith’s statement is odd because he fails to specify to whom he is referring, and if he is not referring to anyone in particular all he is saying is that at least one of the two persons on the Mount of Transfiguration referred to as “Elias” in the scriptures was in the spirit world prior to Christ’s resurrection.  As you have stated, it is of course true that John the Baptist was in the spirit world, so that Joseph F. Smith’s statement is thoroughly uninformative.  The only alternative is that “Elias” is used to simultaneously refer to two different individuals, which by definition would be odd because this usage of the term “Elias” would be totally unique.      

 If Joseph F. Smith were referring to John the Baptist, why could he not simply say so?  
Especially if Elijah were also in the spirit world?  
The fact that “Elias” is...

I'm going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've never read this:  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/elias?lang=eng. From that we understand that depending on the context and particular episode we are discussing, "Elias" can mean one of several people.

I’m quite familiar with the doctrine of Elias.  As stated previously, unless D&C 138:45 is a scriptural novelty, Joseph F. Smith effectively stated that at least one of two individuals was in the spirit world without saying who it was.  Since this was known before section 138 was received this provides no new information. 

That said. I don't know why you're obsessing over who was or was not in the spirit world.  Does Joseph F. Smith HAVE TO enumerate every individual who ever lived?  Why didn't he mention Jeremiah?  Why not Samuel?  OH!  They didn't make it.  They're in Spirit Prison!  Why not Lorenzo Snow?  He mentioned all the modern prophets before himself, but not Pres. Snow.  He must not have made it. Jethro?  Joshua? Methuselah?

This has nothing to do with the present topic of conversation.  There is no scriptural indication that any of these individuals were translated.

The section is long enough with the list as it is.  Did you really expect it to be complete?

Of course not, I’m only talking about Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist and Enoch.

" And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages" appears to be enough to cover all the women in history.  But "among the great and mighty ones" does not seem to cover Enoch and others?  "even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites..." covers all of them?  How about Alma?  He apparently was translated.  Or are you going to use this as evidence that he was NOT translated?

Consistency, please.

To be completely objective about this we need to admit that Mormon did not know with certainty that Alma had been translated; that’s why he said “we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit”.  Moreover, Alma 45:19 is the only verse that indicates that Moses was translated, and it references a scripture that does not otherwise exist in the scriptural canon.  The scriptures are contradictory on this point.  Ultimately, the reason that members of the church believe that Moses was translated is because he would have had to have a body in order to transfer priesthood keys to Peter, James and John.  That is essentially all there is to it. 

How are you jumping to the conclusion that they were NOT in the spirit world?  And even if they weren't why is that a problem for you?

Did I ever say that I definitely thought that D&C 138 indicated that Elijah was not in the spirit world?  I do find it odd that Elijah is mentioned twice in a list of the individuals who were present in paradise at the time of the Savior’s arrival, because he is not actually included in this list but is referred to indirectly and in passing.  Now, it is possible that verse 49 provides an indication that Elijah was in the spirit world, as it begins with the words “All these and many more…”  However, it is far from certain that Elijah qualifies as one of those referred to in this verse, because Elijah is perhaps only mentioned in verse 46 because of Malachi’s prophecy concerning him, and verses 47 and 48 essentially form a parenthetical statement that is an addendum to verse 46.

It is evident that Elijah and Moses were not involved in missionary work in the spirit world because they were resurrected after Christ’s resurrection.  Unless they were only there to strengthen the others in paradise it seems like a waste of spiritual power.  

How's that?  What is the logical path you're using to get to that conclusion.  I've read your posts and there is no logic.  This is really the definition of non sequitur.  Please provide a logical path.  Resurrection has something to do with missionary work?

Yes, it is of course possible that Elijah and Moses returned to the spirit world to perform missionary work after they were resurrected.  However, we do know that they “were with Christ in his resurrection”. (D&C 133:55)  Given the choice between performing missionary work among the spirits in prison and dwelling in the presence of God, I tend to believe they would have been inclined to choose the latter option.  It seems quite clear from D&C 138 that the necessary preparations for missionary work within the spirit world were made during or after Christ’s ministry in the spirit world, so that missionary work among those “who were in darkness” could not have taken place prior to Christ’s death.  Why would beings capable of ministering to other worlds be assigned to the spirit world before they were able to do any missionary work while there?

I have read accounts of near death experiences, particularly in Duane S. Crowther’s book “Life Everlasting”

Mmm-hmmm.  Listen, you're really going all over the map on this topic.  How about if you stop, take a deep breath, start with one question and one statement of logic instead of an epic post every time you want to say something?  Try to be concise.

The fact that D&C 129 says nothing about translated beings does not exclude the possibility that translated beings could reside in the presence of God, but this section does not indicate that this is the case, nor do other statements from Joseph Smith such as the statement you quoted.  I have also thought that the statement by Joseph Smith you quoted is interesting given this statement by Joseph Smith:

I answer, Yes.  But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it. (D&C 130:5)

My current interpretation of the preceding verse is that the angels who minister to this earth have either had a mortal experience upon it or will have a mortal experience upon it.  If so, within this context Joseph Smith was referring generally to all messengers of God.  If both statements are true as I understand them then it would appear that this earth is unique in the sense that individuals who have “belonged” to this earth can minster to those on other planets, while those who do belong or will belong to any other planet cannot minister to those on this earth.  If I remember correctly, in Hugh Nibley’s talk “Secrets of the Scriptures” he mentioned that there are early century Christian documents in which the idea is expressed that the mortal probation experienced by those who inhabit this earth is a more difficult test or period of proving than that experienced by those who inhabit other worlds.  This is an unusual proposition, but perhaps there are other beings more spiritually advanced than ourselves who were sent to terrestrial worlds rather than telestial worlds.

And, so what's the problem?

In the end, you'll have to admit this is much ado about nothing.  You might as well ask why the Romper Room lady mentioned most of the names of the kids in my class, but missed three of them. Why did she miss three of them?

Given the information provided in D&C 138:45 there is an equal chance that Joseph F. Smith could have referred to Elijah or John the Baptist.  All I have done is to note that Elijah is mentioned elsewhere in D&C 138, and John the Baptist is not.  I have also noted that although Elijah is referred to he is not explicitly mentioned as being one of those who was present in the spirit world at the time of Christ’s death.  Again, if verse 49 refers to Elijah then that is that, but if not it is odd for an individual of Elijah’s stature to be mentioned in the context of a list without actually being included in that list, as if he were worthy of mention but only as a peripheral side note.  Just for the record I am of the opinion that Elijah was in the spirit world at the time of Christ’s death.  However, it makes no sense to me for translated beings to have been present in the spirit world for extended amounts of time prior to Christ’s death.

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by rygard1

[Guest]

@rygard1,

Now that we've established all the background, what exactly is the problem you're having?

I asked about whether the lack of mentioning someone was evidence that they were NOT there.  You said that was not the issue.  Then you said it was the issue.  Can you make up your mind?

I asked about the fact that John the Baptist was in the spirit world.  You said that was not the issue.  Then you said it was the issue.  Can you make up your mind?

I talked about whether or not the answer to the title of this thread made any difference.  You said that was not the issue.

Please without all the background what is your question and why is it so important to you that you've now written three epic posts on the topic?

 

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

you've now written three epic posts on the topic

And you've read them!  I couldn't manage to get through the second two.  You deserve an ice cream, but they don't have an ice cream emoticon, so here are some balloons instead:    Pretend they have chocolates inside, then you get the virtual joy of popping them, and having calorie-free chocolate!

Edited August 19, 2016 by zil
feel free to subsitute kim chee for the chocolate

[Guest]

1 hour ago, zil said:

And you've read them!  I couldn't manage to get through the second two.  You deserve an ice cream, but they don't have an ice cream emoticon, so here are some balloons instead:    Pretend they have chocolates inside, then you get the virtual joy of popping them, and having calorie-free chocolate!

I don't really like chocolate that much.  It doesn't go with kim chee.  I prefer Bryers natural vanilla.  Thanks.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Guest

[rygard1]

Every "conclusion" I have posted has been hypothetical.  It has only been my intention to consider the available possibilities given the ambiguity of certain statements in D&C 138. You are confused because you have assumed that I thought that I had arrived at a definite conclusion.  Of course a lack of evidence one way or another is an issue.  Exhaustively considering the available possibilities is only constructive, given a lack of logical proof for any one possibility, if additional evidence can strengthen the plausibility of one of those possibilities.  The whole point of posting this was to get people thinking so that somebody might possibly provide some additional information of which I am unaware relating to translated beings and their activity in the spirit world, or lack thereof.  You have pointed out, and correctly so, that some of my "conclusions" are not necessarily true, which is of course true.  No additional information has come forth.   
 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by rygard1

[Blackmarch]

On 8/18/2016 at 3:47 AM, rygard1 said:

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mark 9:2-4)

The JST for the last verse in the preceding passage is as follows:

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses, or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.

Now, the fact that Joseph Smith’s translation indicates that John the Baptist appeared to Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration does not mean that “Elias”, the Greek form of Elijah, was originally meant to refer to someone other than Elijah, so that it can be concluded that in addition to Moses and Elijah John the Baptist was also present.  It is generally accepted LDS belief that Moses and Elijah must have been translated beings at the time of their appearance on the Mount of Transfiguration, because if they had been unembodied spirits at that time they could not have transferred priesthood keys to Peter, James and John.  Given this understanding it logically follows that John the Baptist did not transfer priesthood keys at this time as he had previously been beheaded and could not have yet been resurrected.  The following verses indicate that Moses, Elijah and John the Baptist (among others who are mentioned) were resurrected following Christ’s resurrection:

In all their afflictions he was afflicted. And the angel of his presence saved them; and in his love, and in his pity, he redeemed them, and bore them, and carried them all the days of old;
Yea, and Enoch also, and they who were with him; the prophets who were before him; and Noah also, and they who were before him; and Moses also, and they who were before him;
And from Moses to Elijah, and from Elijah to John, who were with Christ in his resurrection, and the holy apostles, with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, shall be in the presence of the Lamb. (D&C 133:53-55)

The following verses from D&C 138 mention Elijah and Elias:

Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;
And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.
The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers, (D&C 138:45-47)

The preceding verses indicate that Elias and Malachi were among those who “… were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world…” (D&C 138:16).  Elijah is mentioned, but there is no indication that he was “Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous…” (D&C 138:38)  Taken as a whole, section 138 seem to imply that Elijah was not in the spirit world during Christ’s ministry to the spirits in paradise.  Since it is commonly supposed that Elijah was a translated being until his resurrection, this would be unremarkable if it were not for the fact that “…Moses, the great law-giver of Israel…” (D&C 138:41) is referred to as being present in the spirit world during Christ ministry in paradise.  D&C 138 is conspicuously absent of any mention of Enoch, who would have been a translated being until his resurrection after the resurrection of Christ, as D&C 133:54 would seem to suggest.

According to the following passages from Deuteronomy and Joshua, Moses died:

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.
And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. (Deut. 34:5-7)

Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying,
Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. (Josh. 1:1-2)

The following verse is the only verse of which I am aware that suggest that Moses did not die:

Behold, this we know, that he was a righteous man; and the saying went abroad in the church that he was taken up by the Spirit, or buried by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses. But behold, the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself; therefore, for this cause we know nothing concerning his death and burial. (Alma 45:19)

According to the verse in Alma “the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself”.  There are at least a Jewish tradition that Moses was overshadowed by a cloud and taken up into heaven, and something such as this may have been included on the brass plates; but it is apparent that after Moses died sometime after his appearance to Peter, James and John, otherwise he would not have been in the spirit world prior to his resurrection.  LDS tradition, if it can be called that, maintains that Moses was translated and was changed in the twinkling of an eye following Christ’s resurrection.  Again, neither Enoch nor Elijah seems to have been in the spirit world prior to their resurrection, but Moses was, which is consistent with the hypothesis that he died.  If so, why would he (or John the Baptist for that matter) have appeared to Peter, James and John? 

Moses, Elijah and Elias.docx

I haven't heard anything to the affect that physical beings absolutely cannot visit the spirit world.

[Guest]

Quote

John Ch 21

 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

 

[Edspringer]

On 18/08/2016 at 3:40 PM, Carborendum said:

I don't agree with these.  Do you have a quote or doctrinal basis for this?

1. The translated beings can move about and go to Earth and the spirit world.  But I wouldn't say that either is their "place of habitation".
2. I believe the bolded "spirit" above was supposed to be 'bodies'.
3. With regard to this earth and its inhabitants, a resurrected being has already had his final judgment, so this is a non sequitur (the literary kind, not the logical kind).

Thanx  for replying, Carb.

We are all free to agree or disagree here. This is what makes this forum awesome!

Let’s go to your points:

Do you have a quote or doctrinal basis for this?

I have the scriptures and the words of the living prophets and apostles.  I can quote Elder McConkie, President s Joseph F. Smith and  Joseph Fielding Smith, Elder Talmage, just to get started.  They are available to everyone! All we have to do is feast upon the words of Christ and find the hidden treasures.

1.    The translated beings can move about and go to Earth and the spirit world.  But I wouldn't say that either is their "place of habitation".

You’re right when you say that translated beings can move about here and there. Any being (whether a spirit, a mortal, a translated or a resurrected being) has a place of habitation. They belong somewhere, temporally or permanently.  They do not simply wander anywhere.

2.    I believe the bolded "spirit" above was supposed to be 'bodies'.

Yes, that’s right. Thanx  for the correction.

3.    With regard to this earth and its inhabitants, a resurrected being has already had his final judgment, so this is a non sequitur (the literary kind, not the logical kind).

You’re half right on your point: those who resurrected with Christ in His resurrection have been judged already, but their place of inheritance is this Earth, which hasn’t gone through the proper changes to be celestialized yet.