The single most common affliction of mankind

[Jojo Bags]

I've shared my story here in the past, but as a recap, I'll mention a couple things once again. I had been a porn addict for most of my life until almost four years ago. What changed things was my bishop casting out several unclean spirits from me. When I felt them leave me, it changed my life. I spent the next three plus years researching the phenomenon of possession by evil spirits. When it came to possession, what I took for granted as “truth” melted away like the morning dew. Almost everything I thought was true turned out to be nothing more than belief in the wisdom of the world. What I did learn about evil spirits completely changed the way I looked at the world.

After all my research, I have come to the conclusion that possession by evil spirits is the single most common affliction of mankind. A couple months ago, I finished writing an extensive treatise on the subject of evil spirits based on what I found. I have no original revelation on this subject, but I compiled a gigabit or so of information on the subject. It is heavily referenced with a couple hundred quotes from various prophets and general authorities starting with Joseph Smith and up to the present day. The treatise also contains an appendix of over 100 pages of quotes on the subject of evil spirits, inherited lies, false traditions, and discernment.

Some of the things I learned is that possession is extremely common and that this was officially taught by the Church. I have copies of two Sunday school lesson plans for the Young Women that state this. I also have copies of Deseret News articles that talk about how to not become possessed. I also learned that a lot of our physical and mental illnesses are caused by evil spirits. Not all, but a lot. There are many members who say, “If you talk about evil spirits, you'll bring them about.” That is a total myth born out of fear. Evil spirits already surround us every moment of our lives. Talking about them won't bring them about; they are already here.

Before commenting on this subject, I would strongly recommend you read the treatise. You'll be very surprised what is in it. Porn, sickness, evil spirits and the priesthood.pdf

Edited September 17, 2016 by Jojo Bags

[yjacket]

I would like to read the entire thing.

I have had a unique experience in my life where for a very brief period of time I was gifted to really see with spiritual eyes and all I can say is wow.  When you can look at a complete stranger and know their spirit and know if they are afflicted by a good spirit or an evil spirit, to be in a place and know if evil spirits are there-it is part awe-inspiring and part absolutely terrifying.

[CV75]

I'd say the most common affliction is pride.

[spamlds]

I'd have to say the single most common affliction is DEATH!

[Traveler]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 11:58 AM, Jojo Bags said:

I've shared my story here in the past, but as a recap, I'll mention a couple things once again. I had been a porn addict for most of my life until almost four years ago. What changed things was my bishop casting out several unclean spirits from me. When I felt them leave me, it changed my life. I spent the next three plus years researching the phenomenon of possession by evil spirits. When it came to possession, what I took for granted as “truth” melted away like the morning dew. Almost everything I thought was true turned out to be nothing more than belief in the wisdom of the world. What I did learn about evil spirits completely changed the way I looked at the world.

After all my research, I have come to the conclusion that possession by evil spirits is the single most common affliction of mankind. A couple months ago, I finished writing an extensive treatise on the subject of evil spirits based on what I found. I have no original revelation on this subject, but I compiled a gigabit or so of information on the subject. It is heavily referenced with a couple hundred quotes from various prophets and general authorities starting with Joseph Smith and up to the present day. The treatise also contains an appendix of over 100 pages of quotes on the subject of evil spirits, inherited lies, false traditions, and discernment.

Some of the things I learned is that possession is extremely common and that this was officially taught by the Church. I have copies of two Sunday school lesson plans for the Young Women that state this. I also have copies of Deseret News articles that talk about how to not become possessed. I also learned that a lot of our physical and mental illnesses are caused by evil spirits. Not all, but a lot. There are many members who say, “If you talk about evil spirits, you'll bring them about.” That is a total myth born out of fear. Evil spirits already surround us every moment of our lives. Talking about them won't bring them about; they are already here.

Before commenting on this subject, I would strongly recommend you read the treatise. You'll be very surprised what is in it. Porn, sickness, evil spirits and the priesthood.pdf

I am not sure that your post in understood or appreciated.  As I have contemplated just my own thoughts I am convinced that very few thoughts are of my own creation.  That thoughts are actually one of the primary means of spiritual communication.  Seldom do communications from spirits come to us via way of words in our individual language.   One of the many things that the Holy Ghost does is to bring things to us through our memory.  Much of what we think are unique thoughts created by ourselves; are not that at all but are the result of spirits in our midst.

In addition to thoughts – it is also my experience that spirits have a profound effect on our emotions and feelings.  Many are troubled because a movie or other things we experience (even music) can create similar emotional and feeling responses that we experience during various “spiritual” experiences.  As a result many come to believe that spiritual influences do not really exist that when we think we are having a spiritual experience we are only having a physical response that can be explained by how our brain reacts to stimulus.

I also have experienced that spirits can control or alter things in the physical world such as what will appear on a TV when it is turned on or a specific picture that will open up in a book or magazine when flipping through pages.  Often people will speak of opening the Book of Mormon to a specific passage that they needed to read – likewise unclean spirits can cause other things to appear when books or magazines are opened. 

Scripture tells us that we will reap a reward or something else according to “the spirit we list to obey”.  I have posted on this forum that I believe our agency is limited to this life to a choice between the influences of good or evil spirits.  In essence every experience we have is the result of one or another spirit. And that the law of agency grants equal opportunity to good or evil spirits.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

I also have experienced that spirits can control or alter things in the physical world such as.

You're not the first person to have stated something like this.  But each time I hear it I am reminded of the following verse.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/129.4?lang=eng#3

Does this not say that spirits cannot have a direct physical effect on the physical world?

[Jojo Bags]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure that your post in understood or appreciated.  As I have contemplated just my own thoughts I am convinced that very few thoughts are of my own creation.  That thoughts are actually one of the primary means of spiritual communication.  Seldom do communications from spirits come to us via way of words in our individual language.   One of the many things that the Holy Ghost does is to bring things to us through our memory.  Much of what we think are unique thoughts created by ourselves; are not that at all but are the result of spirits in our midst.

In addition to thoughts – it is also my experience that spirits have a profound effect on our emotions and feelings.  Many are troubled because a movie or other things we experience (even music) can create similar emotional and feeling responses that we experience during various “spiritual” experiences.  As a result many come to believe that spiritual influences do not really exist that when we think we are having a spiritual experience we are only having a physical response that can be explained by how our brain reacts to stimulus.

I also have experienced that spirits can control or alter things in the physical world such as what will appear on a TV when it is turned on or a specific picture that will open up in a book or magazine when flipping through pages.  Often people will speak of opening the Book of Mormon to a specific passage that they needed to read – likewise unclean spirits can cause other things to appear when books or magazines are opened. 

Scripture tells us that we will reap a reward or something else according to “the spirit we list to obey”.  I have posted on this forum that I believe our agency is limited to this life to a choice between the influences of good or evil spirits.  In essence every experience we have is the result of one or another spirit. And that the law of agency grants equal opportunity to good or evil spirits.

 

The Traveler

Evil spirits project thoughts into people's minds all the time.  You simply will not commit sin unless you've thought about it first.  The only thing is that they cannot read your thoughts so they will not know whether or not their thought projections have affected you unless you show it in some way.  However, I'm positive they are masters at reading body language and know whether or not those thoughts have taken hold.  When I finally overcame my pornography addiction, I learned that there were subtle cues I gave off that indicated to them that I was thinking evil things.  I have also found that when thoughts are intrusive, frustrating, disturbing, or upsetting, it most likely is the result of an evil spirit putting them there.  Often, when I wake up to go to the toilet, I have intrusive thoughts hit me the second my eyes pop open.  Sometimes it will be a song I've heard, or a concern that nags uncontrollably.  I simply do what we are taught to do in the temple ceremony and cast away the evil spirit.  The thoughts always leave and I can get back to sleep.  At the same time, inspirational thoughts and feelings are the result of good spirits projecting them.

I also know that both good and evil spirits can and do affect the physical realm.  The History of the Church and the Journal of Discourses are replete with stories of good and evil spirits doing things that many members do not realize are possible.  One such incident is the very first miracle performed in the dispensation.  Newel K. Knight became possessed by the Devil and was bodily lifted up and thrown about the room.  As he was flying around the room, Joseph Smith took Newel by the hand and cast out the Devil.  Newel said he could see the Devil leave and suddenly, he was again lifted up and floated up near the ceiling.  The people in the room got concerned until Joseph said that Newel had been possessed by the Holy Spirit, who was lifting Newel off the floor.

[Jojo Bags]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

You're not the first person to have stated something like this.  But each time I hear it I am reminded of the following verse.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/129.4?lang=eng#3

Does this not say that spirits cannot have a direct physical effect on the physical world?

You obviously haven't read the treatise that I included for download when I started this thread.  In it I included about a dozen quotes about how evil spirits can physically attack people and affect this realm.  The scripture you are referencing does not apply to this; it is talking about detecting deception by evil spirits when they appear as an angel of light.  Joseph Smith taught that evil spirits have their bounds and limitations set down by God and that there are laws they must abide by.  One law is regarding their ability to deceive you as an angel of light and this scripture gives the key to detecting them.  If evil spirits cannot affect the physical realm, them how was it that while on his knees in the Sacred Grove, the Devil bound Joseph's tongue so he could not speak?  There are several spectacular incidents in the History of the Church and in the journals of many early missionaries in which evil spirits attacked people, causing physical harm and knocking people and objects about.  Here are a couple of quotes to consider.

Quote

She was in awful pain and talked all the time and some of the time in rhyme. The Elders administered to her. The evil spirits left her and entered another person and on being rebuked again would enter another and so continued a good part of the night. But when the devil was commanded in the name of Jesus Christ to leave the camp, he went and was very mad. He went thru the whole camp, made a roaring noise, knocked over chairs, broke table legs and made awful work.

Autobiography of John Pulsipher

Quote

Below is an extract from a letter written by Elder William R. Palmer, a missionary laboring in the Indian Territory, U.S.A. It is dated at Coalgate, March 14, 1898.

On the first day of this month four other Elders and myself baptized a family named Lewis, here at Coalgate. The man had been baptized in Wales about nineteen years ago by our Elders, but when he came to the States he got separated from the Saints. He had nothing to show that he had been baptized, so the president of the mission thought it best to baptize him again. He could not see that he needed that and was reluctant to do so. His wife and three children became converted to the Gospel, but they were afraid to be baptized. Our conference president and his companion came to visit us, and the five of us fasted and prayed for two days that Brother Lewis and his family might see the necessity of being baptized. About noon of the second day we went to their home and were delighted to find them ready for baptism.

"The ordinance was promptly attended to, and we returned to the house to hold a confirmation meeting. While we were holding that meeting an evil spirit or spirits seized Brother Lewis and gave him the hardest shaking I ever saw a man get. His mouth was stretched almost from ear to ear, and his face was drawn into all shapes imaginable.

"We knew what was the matter, for we were prompted to rebuke the destroyer. Accordingly Brother Lewis was anointed by one of us and hands were laid on him. At our rebuke it left but came back in a moment with more violence. The rebuke was repeated with the same results. Retiring to another room we held prayers then went back and commanded it to depart the third time. It, obeyed and we confirmed him, that he might have the Spirit of the Lord to assist him in throwing off the evil one.

"In about an hour the evil spirit returned with doubled energy and fairly made him writhe with pain. This time we were prompted to command it in the name of Jesus to depart and return no more, and it did so. Brother Lewis was brought down so weak through the ordeal that he could not get out of bed for several hours.

Word From the Indian Territory

The Latter-day Saints' Millennial Star

Vol 60, No. 16, April 21, 1898, Pg. 256

There are many more quotes in the treatise.  I recommend you read it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jojo Bags said:

You obviously haven't read the treatise that I included for download when I started this thread...

There are many more quotes in the treatise.  I recommend you read it.

You may be under the wrong impression with my motives.  When you first mentioned you were writing this paper on another thread, I was honestly looking forward to reading it.  I wasn't being sarcastic about that.  I find such knowledge fairly fascinating.  So, I was pretty happy when I saw your post here.

I have downloaded it.  And I have begun reading it.  I'm finding it difficult to get past your personal biography portion.  I say the following as a scholarly criticism rather than a personal attack.  

I've read many papers that begin in this manner only to be very disappointed.  The entire point of the personal information and storyline is to "sell" rather than provide real reasoning.

I find that more scholarly papers only touch on the personal information very lightly as it is directly pertinent to the subject matter.  Then the remainder is able to be viewed in a much more logical manner.

For instance, the quotes you provide don't give enough detail to describe whether the evil spirit itself was engaging in physical contact with anything or if it was doing so by virtue of having possessed a body.  Again, much emotion.  Lacking in detail to provide a sound forensic analysis of what is actually happening.  But you've jumped to a conclusion that may or may not be correct without sufficient detail.

And I personally disagree with your interpretation of my D&C reference.  Not that you were incorrect on the basis.  But the conclusion.

[omegaseamaster75]

@jojo bags

Is Donald Trump possessed?

 

 

[Jojo Bags]

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You may be under the wrong impression with my motives.  When you first mentioned you were writing this paper on another thread, I was honestly looking forward to reading it.  I wasn't being sarcastic about that.  I find such knowledge fairly fascinating.  So, I was pretty happy when I saw your post here.

I have downloaded it.  And I have begun reading it.  I'm finding it difficult to get past your personal biography portion.  I say the following as a scholarly criticism rather than a personal attack.  

I've read many papers that begin in this manner only to be very disappointed.  The entire point of the personal information and storyline is to "sell" rather than provide real reasoning.

I find that more scholarly papers only touch on the personal information very lightly as it is directly pertinent to the subject matter.  Then the remainder is able to be viewed in a much more logical manner.

For instance, the quotes you provide don't give enough detail to describe whether the evil spirit itself was engaging in physical contact with anything or if it was doing so by virtue of having possessed a body.  Again, much emotion.  Lacking in detail to provide a sound forensic analysis of what is actually happening.  But you've jumped to a conclusion that may or may not be correct without sufficient detail.

And I personally disagree with your interpretation of my D&C reference.  Not that you were incorrect on the basis.  But the conclusion.

I apologize for my knee jerk assumption.   I am glad you downloaded the treatise.   Way too many members have wrong ideas when it comes to evil spirits.   I have heard time and again the saying,  "If you talk about evil spirits you'll bring them about. "  That is a myth born out of fear and a lack of  correct knowledge.  I wrote this because of my own experience and because I wanted to know what was taught by church leaders.  The treatise has been downloaded over 1500 times on various websites.   You are the only person who thought I shouldn't have included my story.  I'm not selling anything.   If you read the copyright notice,  you'll see that I won't accept any money for this.  

[Jojo Bags]

11 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

@jojo bags

Is Donald Trump possessed?

I would say he is transiently possessed; his wife more than he.  Hillary is fully possessed 24/7.

 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

I apologize for my knee jerk assumption.   I am glad you downloaded the treatise.   Way too many members have wrong ideas when it comes to evil spirits.   I have heard time and again the saying,  "If you talk about evil spirits you'll bring them about. "  That is a myth born out of fear and a lack of  correct knowledge.  I wrote this because of my own experience and because I wanted to know what was taught by church leaders.  The treatise has been downloaded over 1500 times on various websites.   You are the only person who thought I shouldn't have included my story.  I'm not selling anything.   If you read the copyright notice,  you'll see that I won't accept any money for this.  

I can appreciate that.  I want to address a couple of items in this response.

1) When I said "sell", I wasn't referring to monetary gain.  I was speaking of "selling" an idea -- in this case, your beliefs/interpretations.  If you want to make your case, make it.  I've now gotten to page 24.  You've provided plenty of testimony and apostolic quotes.  This is great.  But much of the treatise leans on emotion rather than sound logic.  You offer the quotes as a complete vindication of your position.  But there are a LOT of unanswered questions for those quotes that you don't address.

2) Use of personal stories is fine -- when done correctly.  The problem I have is that the personal story is written in such a way that, while a good insight into your personal plight (for which I offer my sympathies and I do find very interesting) I do not find it particularly convincing on a logical level that the premise of your treatise is accurate.  IOW, your personal testimony is just that -- your personal testimony.  It does not necessarily follow that this is "The single most common affliction of mankind".

I absolutely agree that evil spirits afflict us in many ways.  But I'm only partially leaning in your direction.  To put numbers to it: If we're talking about a Hollywood Demonic Horror film being a 10, you seem to be at an 8.5.  Most people tend to believe it is around a 1 or 2.  I tend to believe it is about a 4, maybe 5.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Guest

[Jojo Bags]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I can appreciate that.  I want to address a couple of items in this response.

1) When I said "sell", I wasn't referring to monetary gain.  I was speaking of "selling" an idea -- in this case, your beliefs/interpretations.  If you want to make your case, make it.  I've now gotten to page 24.  You've provided plenty of testimony and apostolic quotes.  This is great.  But much of the treatise leans on emotion rather than sound logic.  You offer the quotes as a complete vindication of your position.  But there are a LOT of unanswered questions for those quotes that you don't address.

2) Use of personal stories is fine -- when done correctly.  The problem I have is that the personal story is written in such a way that, while a good insight into your personal plight (for which I offer my sympathies and I do find very interesting) I do not find it particularly convincing on a logical level that the premise of your treatise is accurate.  IOW, your personal testimony is just that -- your personal testimony.  It does not necessarily follow that this is "The single most common affliction of mankind".

I absolutely agree that evil spirits afflict us in many ways.  But I'm only partially leaning in your direction.  To put numbers to it: If we're talking about a Hollywood Demonic Horror film being a 10, you seem to be at an 8.5.  Most people tend to believe it is around a 1 or 2.  I tend to believe it is about a 4, maybe 5.

Your comments and critique seem to come from a scholarly point of view of.  I am not a scholar  although I am fairly well educated.    I have found, though,  that my education has been a serious major hindrance to my spiritual growth.  It kept me from seeing the truth.   I relied on my secular knowledge instead of the teachings of the prophets and apostles.   I did not believe in  the capabilities of Satan and his minions. I believed in the secular wisdom of today, the inherited lies and false traditions passed on from generation to generation.  D&C 123:7 says that inherited lies are the "mainspring of all corruption."  D&C 93:39 tells us that one way truth is taken away is because of tradition. 

I wrote this treatise not for the scholarly or secularly minded.  It will go against everything they believe.   I wrote it for those who find that the secular world cannot give answers for spiritually based problems.   I wrote it for those who believe that the secular world is full of Satan's falsehoods.   I included my brief story to show that there are definite ways to be healed from afflictions that the secular world cannot understand.   I have been contacted by several people who's own story resonates with mine.   I have also been contacted by people who tell me that what I researched changed their lives, made it better and gave them relief from mental illnesses.  I don't mean for this to sound offensive,  but when I wrote the treatise I knew it would be criticized and rejected by the majority of LDS.  Based on my observations and occasional discussions with several LDS, I have concluded it is because they believe more in the secular wisdom of today than in faith and the power of the priesthood.  People believe in Christ, but they don't believe Christ   This has been commented on by many apostles and prophets. It was true in the Savior's time and  is still true today.

Along with prayer,  scripture study, etc., I aply this knowledge on a daily basis and I find that every day is easier,  problems are easier to solve,  and it is much easier to cope with my trials and tribulations.  I know that when darkness clouds my mind,  when frustration and anxiety claw ar me, I understand the source of the frustration and anxiety.  I know that evil spirits exacerbate existing problems by projecting greater frustration and anxiety into my mind.   Once I realize this, I cast away the evil spirits responsible for the problem. Immediately peace returns and my day is better.  This isn't just my personal belief, it is fact.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jojo Bags said:

I wrote this treatise not for the scholarly or secularly minded.  It will go against everything they believe.

Again, I think you are assuming a lot about my post and me that is incorrect.  I'm not talking about spiritual vs secular.  I'm talking about taking the written word and jumping to a conclusion rather than determining what it actually means.

If your conclusions you drew were from scriptural study, prayer, and faith.  Great.  More power to you.  But when I study, pray, and determine things by faith I get a different conclusion.  So, where does that leave us?

When we come to this situation, we can either both continue on our merry ways having been guided by the Spirit on two different paths; or we can have a logical discussion based on those spiritual truths that we DO agree on; or we can argue like little children and say "neener-neener".  I hope you're not opting for the last one -- though I do think it would be a lot of fun.

In the meantime, I'll continue through your paper because I find it full of pretty good quotes.  And I just like reading stuff.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Guest

[Anddenex]

On 10/11/2016 at 6:34 AM, Carborendum said:

You're not the first person to have stated something like this.  But each time I hear it I am reminded of the following verse.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/129.4?lang=eng#3

Does this not say that spirits cannot have a direct physical effect on the physical world?

I don't believe it does Carborendum, as this verse pertains to the actual visitation of angels and how we can tell the difference. Then again, I am not sure on how you are defining a direct physical effect on the world?

A mission experience tells me they indeed can and will have a physical effect upon the world. Joseph Smith's tongue being bound as if he could not speak appears to show some physical effect.

Would you define Joseph Smith's experience with the adversary in the grove a direct physical and spiritual effect?

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I don't believe it does Carborendum, as this verse pertains to the actual visitation of angels and how we can tell the difference. Then again, I am not sure on how you are defining a direct physical effect on the world?

A mission experience tells me they indeed can and will have a physical effect upon the world. Joseph Smith's tongue being bound as if he could not speak appears to show some physical effect.

Would you define Joseph Smith's experience with the adversary in the grove a direct physical and spiritual effect?

 

I'm having trouble with that definition as well.  The thing is that I see a difference between the emotional effects on a person such that it triggers a physical reaction vs an evil spirit going to an inanimate object and making it appear to fly around.  I believe the former can happen.  I'm having trouble believing the latter.

I myself felt the same thing that Joesph did.  So, I'm certainly not going to say that can't happen.  But he poltergeist type activity is something I'm not inclined to believe at the moment.

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

@Anddenex,

I've spent some time studying and pondering about the dividing line.  I've not reached a final conclusion.  But I have a starting point.

First, look at D&C 129:8

Quote

8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything ; you may therefore detect him.

Yes, the subject matter was about discerning the difference between a true messenger and an evil spirit masquerading as one.  But this highlighted portion actually states a fact that goes beyond the context of these verses.  We cannot feel their spirit bodies.  If we cannot feel them, they cannot move something physical.

So, they cannot do something directly physical without first possessing a body.  If they could, it would seem they don't need a body to do a great many things.  So, why was gaining one so important?

Procreation and the second estate.  Yes.  I am aware.  But even acknowledging that, it leaves a LOT that is unanswered.  Not only that, but these other things that may be claimed make it seem like evil spirits are more powerful and more free than mortals.  This doesn't sound right.

Quote

All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. 

--Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 181.

Wicked spirits have their bounds, limits, and laws by which they are governed.

History of the Church, 4:576.

If they can easily throw things around and physically harm us whereas we have no recourse over them save the priesthood, then they are more powerful than we are.  I simply cannot accept that.  It also follows that because we kept our first estate that we are spiritually stronger than those who did not.  Thus we have more power than they both physically and spiritually.  Yet some of these stories would have us believe otherwise.

Quote

Satan cannot seduce us by his enticements unless we in our hearts consent and yield. Our organization is such that we can resist the devil; if we were not organized so, we would not be free agents.

--Quoted by William P. McIntire, reporting a discourse given by Joseph Smith in early 1841 in Nauvoo, Illinois; William Patterson McIntire, Notebook 1840–45, Church Archives.

This quote would also imply that possession itself is quite difficult.  This appears to conflict with many anecdotal stories to the contrary (as far as we know).  Some of those stories are quoted in Jojo's paper, actually.  So, no, I have no explanation for that.  But I trust these quotes here more than I trust some of the quotes in his paper.  Yet he seems to have done some homework.  I'll have to do some more of mine before I can come to a certain conclusion.

After all this, I've come up with an explanation.  This is not final.  As I said, I have to do some more studying and praying and pondering.

I believe that evil spirits need bodies to do anything directly in the physical realm.
I believe they have the power to possess our bodies. That implies they have some power to influence our bodies to begin with.
I believe that power to be indirect until such point that they have enough power to possess said body.
I believe that their initial power is spiritual in nature.  They can somehow affect our spirits to such a degree that we have an emotional and/or physiological reaction including extreme discomfort in a myriad of ways.  That can lead to many other conditions including disease in many cases and certainly mental health.

(This spiritual affecting the physical is what I believe happened to Joseph because that's what I perceived happened to me.)

As they affect our spirits, they can wear away at our defenses until possession can be achieved.
I believe their ability to impact inanimate objects which do not experience discomfort is negligible to non-existent.  They simply cannot be possessed or affected by a disembodied evil spirit.

And I have no explanation yet about Job's people being killed by a wind that caused a building to fall on them.  I'll study up on it.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Guest

[Anddenex]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, the subject matter was about discerning the difference between a true messenger and an evil spirit masquerading as one.  But this highlighted portion actually states a fact that goes beyond the context of these verses.  We cannot feel their spirit bodies.  If we cannot feel them, they cannot move something physical.

At some point, I will personally message you regarding mission experience as I personally don't like to give attention to spirits of the unjust in a public forum. Thank you for the explanation and thoughts.

[Jojo Bags]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm having trouble with that definition as well.  The thing is that I see a difference between the emotional effects on a person such that it triggers a physical reaction vs an evil spirit going to an inanimate object and making it appear to fly around.  I believe the former can happen.  I'm having trouble believing the latter.

I myself felt the same thing that Joesph did.  So, I'm certainly not going to say that can't happen.  But he poltergeist type activity is something I'm not inclined to believe at the moment.

 

The following quote was published in a Church magazine. It details the experience of a missionary serving in Australia in the late 1890's.

Quote

 

Suddenly I felt myself borne down by a strange and awful power. It weighed upon my bosom and seemed to be crushing me, while it pressed also upon my mouth and threw my head over the top of the lounge. The pressure upon my face was as distinct as if it had been made by a sinewy hand pressing a cloth tightly over my mouth and nose. In the first excitement my heart beat very rapidly, and then stopped, motionless. I struggled to release myself, even reaching out with one hand and seizing the edge of the lounge, intending to draw myself down to the floor. Every effort was unavailing, and it seemed to me that I was losing myself and must soon die, if I could not obtain relief. Then the thought came to me to pray, and I cried in my inmost soul:

"Oh, Lord! help me!"

No sooner had this petition passed in thought through my mind than I was instantly released. I sprang to my feet, trembling with fear and suffering, but I made no cry and gave no explanation to those who were present.

Helpful Visions: Faith-Promoting Series, no. 14, pp 50-51

BRIANT S. STEVENS

 

 

This next quote is an experience from the life of Elder Heber C. Kimball while on a mission to England.
 

Quote

 

"Sunday, July 30th. about daybreak. Elder Isaac Russell (who had been appointed to preach on the obelisk in Preston Square, that day,) who slept with Elder Richards in Wilfred Street, came up to the third story, where Elder Hyde and myself were sleeping, and called out, 'Brother Kimball, I want you should get up and pray for me that I may be delivered from the evil spirits that are tormenting me to such a degree that I feel I cannot live long, unless I obtain relief.'

“I had been sleeping on the back of the bed. I immediately arose, slipped off at the foot of the bed, and passed round to where he was. Elder Hyde threw his feet out, and sat up in the bed, and we laid hands on him, I being mouth, and prayed that the Lord would have mercy on him. and rebuked the devil.

"While thus engaged, I was struck with great force by some invisible power, and fell senseless on the floor. The first thing I recollected was being supported by Elders Hyde and Richards, who were praying for me; Elder Richards having followed Russell up to my room. Elders Hyde and Richards then assisted me to get on the bed, but my agony was so great I could not endure it, and I arose, bowed my knees and prayed. I then arose and sat up on the bed, when a vision was opened to our minds, and we could distinctly see the evil spirits, who foamed and gnashed their teeth at us. We gazed upon them about an hour and a half (by Willard's watch).

We were not looking towards the window, but towards the wall. Space appeared before us, and we saw the devils coming in legions, with their leaders, who came within a few feet of us. They came towards us like armies rushing to battle. They appeared to be men of full stature, possessing every form and feature of men in the flesh, who were angry and desperate; and I shall never forget the vindictive malignity depicted on their countenances as they looked me in the eye ; and any attempt to paint the scene which then presented itself, or portray their malice and enmity, would be vain. I perspired exceedingly, my clothes becoming as wet as if I had been taken out of the river. I felt excessive pain, and was in the greatest distress for some time. I cannot even look back on the scene without feelings of horror; yet by it I learned the power of the adversary, his enmity against the servants of God, and got some understanding of the invisible world. We distinctly heard those spirits talk and express their wrath and hellish designs against us. However, the Lord delivered us from them, and blessed us exceedingly that day."

* * * * * *

Years later, narrating the experience of that awful morning to the Prophet Joseph, Heber asked him what it all meant, and whether there was anything wrong with him that he should have such a manifestation.

"No, Brother Heber," he replied, "at that time you were nigh unto the Lord ; there was only a veil between you and Him, but you could not see Him. When I heard of it, it gave me great joy, for I then knew that the work of God had taken root in that land. It was this that caused the devil to make a struggle to kill you."

Joseph then related some of his own experience, in many contests he had had with the evil one, and said: "The nearer a person approaches the Lord, a greater power will be manifested by the adversary to prevent the accomplishment of His purposes.”

Life of Heber C. Kimball, pp143-146

 

I have more quotes with experiences like these.  I have also personally seen and heard things that fall into line with these quotes.

[Guest]

I'm afraid we simply aren't communicating.  I promise you I've read everything you've posted in great detail.  I get it.  I understand it.  But that does nothing to counter what I've said about how I believe evil spirits can behave.  In fact, it appears that is supporting exactly what I've said.  I'm having trouble seeing why you think otherwise.

What am really curious about now is what this gigabit of information was that you were describing?  The pdf is less than 1MB.

EDIT: Perhaps, part of the reason we're not communicating is that I'm not fully describing my personal experience.  That was by design.  And if it means describing that experience in detail, I'd rather we remain in confusion with each other than having proper communication.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Guest

[Jojo Bags]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm afraid we simply aren't communicating.  I promise you I've read everything you've posted in great detail.  I get it.  I understand it.  But that does nothing to counter what I've said about how I believe evil spirits can behave.  In fact, it appears that is supporting exactly what I've said.  I'm having trouble seeing why you think otherwise.

What am really curious about now is what this gigabit of information was that you were describing?  The pdf is less than 1MB.

EDIT: Perhaps, part of the reason we're not communicating is that I'm not fully describing my personal experience.  That was by design.  And if it means describing that experience in detail, I'd rather we remain in confusion with each other than having proper communication.

Not agreeing is fine with me.   At least you took the time to read it, which is a lot more than I can say for most members.